Are there any other United Methodists here?

This has been bothering me for a while. In fact I wrote an 18 page thesis in March of last year about it. It is quite clear to me that not only is George W. Bush not a good Methodist, he is obviously not even a Christian.

This is not about his policies, although I firmly believe that those are bad for our country, our species, and our world. My main example is George W. Bush's tax cuts of 2001 and 2003. I am fine with someone who feels that tax cuts for the rich are good for the country, or are fair. Okay, maybe fine is the wrong word, but I can respect that people can have honest differences about what constitutes "fair" and there is always some uncertainty about the effects of a policy, whether it will be good or bad.

It is not his policies which make me confident that Bush is a bad person, and not a Christian. It was the way he lied about his policies. It is not about his policies as much as it is about his blatant dishonesty.

So if people on TV can say that Democrats are not "good Catholics" is Republican judges can be excommunicated because of the way they ruled on the Schiavo case. If Kerry voters can be excommunicated, then it is clearly time for the Methodist church to excommunicate George W. Bush. As I wrote last year:

According to the United Methodist Book of Discipline:
"A lay member of a local church may be charged with the following offenses and, if so, may choose a trial: (a) immorality; (b) crime; (c) disobedience to the Order and Discipline of the United Methodist Church ..."

As a member, albeit inactive, of the United Methodist church, I charge George Walker Bush with immorality based on his blatant disregard for the truth. I am asking the help of all fellow Methodists to bring him to trial, or failing that, to sever their ties to the Methodist Church.

As I concluded my thesis last year:
"The Methodist Book of Discipline says:
"A church that rushes to punishment is not open to God's mercy, but a church lacking the courage to act decisively on personal and social issues loses its claim to moral authority." p. 47

It is past time for the United Methodist church to hold George W. Bush accountable for his lack of integrity."

too many Methodists are ASLEEP just like the rest of America. Once the Methodist grab hold of the truth your fellow Methodists will follow the book of discipline.

The problem is not getting them to be good Methodists, the problem is helping them see the truth. The media is lying to them. When you try to tell them otherwise, they think YOU ARE LYING.

We can only win them back one at a time. Work with them one at a time.

Bama

:patriot: :hi:

or the truth?
If they think I am lying, let them present the evidence to back that up. Maybe I am wrong. It has happened once or twice before I think, but I am certainly sincere in my belief, and am quite willing to present my evidence and arguments.

And I completely agree that Bush is nowhere near in harmony with the Book of Discipline or other public policies or positions of the United Methodist General Board of Global Ministries. That said, there are individual churches that aren't following UMC philosophy, either.

I don't see it as the church's place to "hold Bush accountable" - would we then be any better than the church in North Carolina that kicked members out for voting for Kerry?

The United Methodist church leadership has issued many statements in contradiction to Bush's actions. In the end, though, it is between him and his God as to whether or not he is living as Christ taught and practicing Christian values.

The Methodist church should not hold a public, unrepentant, serial liar accountable for his dishonesty?
It would seem that the church does not feel the same way about a gay minister.

A good Methodist "...is called upon to be a witness for Christ in the world, a light and leaven in society, and a reconciler in a culture of conflict. Each member is to identify with the agony and suffering of the world and to radiate and exemplify the Christ of hope." #220 p. 124

"It is therefore expected of all who continue therein that they should continue to evidence their desire of salvation.
First: By doing no harm, by avoiding evil of every kind, especially that which is most generally practiced, such as: ...
Laying up treasure upon earth.
Secondly: By doing good; by being in every kind merciful after their power, as they have opportunity, doing good of every possible sort, and, as far as possible, to all men:
To their bodies, of the ability which God giveth, by giving food to the hungry, by clothing the naked, by visiting or helping them that are sick or in prison."

Is not allowing a public disgrace to stay as a Methodist in good standing an insult to everyone else who is expected to and sincerely tries to follow the teachings of Jesus and John Wesley? WWJD?

I simply do not feel it is the place of church leadership nor of me as an individual parishoner, to hold another church member accountable for his sins. That is an incredibly slippery slope to tread, and one I think Christ warned his followers in pretty clear terms to avoid.

I am not insulted by what someone else does simply because we belong to the same denomination. Denominations and other religious divisions are man-made institutions, not of God's design.

I'm mightily insulted by what Bush does, and will do all I can as a citizen to hold him accountable. But until he is a bishop or district superintendent in the UMC structure, I don't see it as appropriate for the church to take some sort of disciplinary action against him. There are plenty of assholes in every denomination, I'm sorry to say.

I wonder if Jesus told that one to John the Baptist before he went off trying to hold Herod accountable for his adultery.

I thought the origin of the Methodist church was a group of people who met to hold each other accountable?

I guess I want to see all the a$$holes held accountable, even me. I cannot see how allowing the illusion that Bush is a Christian or a Methodist does not reflect badly upon both Christians and Methodists. Lay people are also expected to reflect the light of Jesus.

Too many citizens voted to not hold Bush accountable and the reason many give - "he's a good Christian". The Methodist church seems to have been an enabler of his nefarious deeds almost as much as the MSM.

"Too many citizens voted to not hold Bush accountable and the reason many give - "he's a good Christian". The Methodist church seems to have been an enabler of his nefarious deeds almost as much as the MSM."


I don't think you meant to imply this, but just for the record...I didn't vote for Bush, and do not excuse anything he has done with "he's a good Christian" because I do not think he even rates as a mediocre Christian.

I started off with the premise that the United Methodist Church should not be in the business of weighing individual members' "worthiness" and holding them accountable if they don't measure up. If the church ever does this, mind you, I am certain Bush would not make the cut, by any stretch of the imagination. My concern was the slippery slope this would create, opening the doors down the line for future removals of people for far lesser transgressions.

That said, I am beginning to ponder altering my initial arguement. I need more time to think on this, frankly. I'd rather be silent and thought a fool, than speak and have it be known. Give me a little while; I'd like to come back to this thread later, but have to run for now.

Thank you for an intelligent discussion, whether we end up agreeing or not.

United Methodist here too.

If a person wants to be judging people's morals and kicking them out of the church, the UMC is probably going to be a constant frustration.

A main principal of the church is to allow differences of opinion to be argued and opined openly. Another basic tenet is its openness and inclusiveness.

And the Book of Disciplines?

As Captain Barbosa says in Pirates of the Caribbean, "they're more like guidelines than laws." Or so it seems anyway.

It couldn't be more clearly stated in the Book of Discipines that a minister cannot be ordained if a practicing homosexual, but even with all the publicity, the church is having trouble enforcing that rule even though it's written as plain as day.

I wouldn't expect trials of parishioners on morality charges if you're a UM.

There is an online petition to remove both Bush and Chaney from the United Methodist Church put up by a group associated with Bush's Texas church, Park Hill United Methodist. <http://www.petitiononline.com/tmrloc03/petition.html>
It has been up since before the election and they are still taking signatures.
There is quite a bit of detail about how these two have gone against a number of provisions of the Book of Discipline as well as a number of other teachings. United Methodists are not a doctrinal church such as the Catholic, Lutheran and Episcopal churches. Rather their "rules" the Book of Discipline and Social Principles are voted on every four years at an assembly of clergy and lay members. United Methodism tries to be an inclusive church (I know we are still wrestling with the issue of gay clergy and marriage) and for the most part are reluctant to "excommunicate" anyone.

but I shall add mine. As far as detail, they did not match my own 18 pages. Plus, they mention too many policies, and I feel that is not as sound a case as the immorality. Good Methodists might disagree about, say, the death penalty. Hopefully, there is no such controversy about the morality of lying.

Also, on the charge of lying, they stick with the WMD and the Iraq war lies. I feel those are more controversial as well. As I said in my thesis: "Lots of people have talked about Bush lying about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but, again, I find that very hard to prove. First, that he knew, or should have known it was a lie, and second, that there were not weapons there which we now cannot find. Just because a blind man looking for a black cat in a dark room does not find it, does not mean it was not there."

Of course I wrote that in March of 2004, before the recent reports came out showing that there never were WMD.

Thanks for the link though.

Having grown up in the Methodist church, been on the Official Board and been a Lay Leader, all I can say is that, despite its structure of bishops, each individual church tends to be conservative or liberal, depending on its environment. What are the feelings of the people in Bush's home church (which I assume is in Texas)? Or is Bush really a Methodist in name only?

Bush, 54, is a member of Highland Park United Methodist Church in the Dallas area and regularly attends Tarrytown United Methodist church in Austin, Texas, when he is at the governor's mansion there. Vice President-elect Dick Cheney is also identified as a United Methodist in his biographical material, but his campaign office has not answered queries from United Methodist News Service regarding his local church membership.

www.mcjonline.com/news/00b/20001215b.htm

This looks like old data--but the Highland Park church supports the story that he's planning to live in the Metroplex after DC.

Perry Chapel United Methodist Church is located in Crawford but Bush has made no visits. The church's pastor is also Crawford's mayor, Robert Campbell--a Democrat & African American--as are most of his congregation. (Well, I don't know that they're mostly Democratic.)

www.baylormag.com/story.php?story=003897

it's not full of fawning idiots gazing adoringly at him...........

and they're BLACK :scared:






edited to add: Bush allows black people in Crawford? Didn't he pretty much construct that town in 99 for his campaign, along with the ranch?

I spent some time during the 2004 election looking at GOP websites, and finding out who was bragging about being UMC and then voting to screw the environment. A couple of my letters to editors on stewardship made it into the papers; I absolutely hate it when they brag about what church they go to, but apparently have never read the Book of Discipline--like about being good stewards of the environment, for instance.

combine the two is No better than the Church in NC that called on all Democrats to repent for voting for Kerry and to accept * or leave.

Yes, we have a president who often utters things about faith and his faith as leading him in his decisions. Yes, he is supposedly Methodist (there is an excellent article in Mother Jones about a year ago about his "conversion" I don't have a link, but it is worth seeking out) -- and yes, some of his "base" happens to have his kind of faith. But -- He stepped back from Frist's using religion to withhold the judicial nominees from an up or down vote -- he knows he's on a slippery slope. He uses religion when it is beneficial to him.

HOLD HIM (and his administration) TO THE CONSTITUTION. HOLD HIM TO OUR LAWS of the LAND.

Forget about his religion and concentrate on getting the word out about his policies and his lying to the American people that has gotten thousands of people killed (not just our troops, but the people who are there fighting with us, and many, many, many innocent Iraqi women, children and men.)

Churches have no business even knowing a person's politics! It used to be that money (one makes) and politics were two of the most private things that an individual held. Once people were more open with this, suddenly it becomes an issue of faith? I think not.

or the faith is pretty empty.

I am not sure politics was ever that private. I have read 19th century biographies and newspaper obituaries that mention a party affiliation. But I also remember my civics teacher's answer when asked who he voted for, he said he voted for "the secret ballot".

I am not calling for all Republicans to repent (other than the known serial liars, which seems to include most of the elected ones) or for Bush to repent of being a Republican (except insofar as lying is part of their party platform - is it?). I am calling on Bush to repent of being a serial liar.

his religion to hold him to this is the way to go. That is why we have laws.

Once we hold specific people to a religious doctrine/standard -- we cannot say "let's look at the Republicans who lied" -- we have to say, "let's look at Everyone who's lied" -- no matter what position they hold -- whether or not it's in public office or not. And why just on the lying? Might as well be the whole 10 commandments, right? Only, some of those people aren't Christian, some are Jewish or Muslim, or Buddhist, or.....

I don't care that he's of a particular faith, though I certainly don't feel that it's appropriate for him (or other members of congress) to be using that against a lot of people who aren't their faith. The last I looked, America was made up of more than Christians. If the doctrine of any religion is that powerful -- why don't we just use that to try and judge people? Why don't we use BTK's Religious tenants to try him? Why don't we use the Bible to condemn certain lifestyles? I may be a little sarcastic in those examples, but I thought the reason we created the constitution and the laws of the land is so that there would be a standard that we all could agree on in order to live in society whether or not one believed in the 10 commandments.

For those of us who are not people of "faith" but who ascribe to truth and justice, does that make us "empty"? For those of us who do not ascribe to a higher power at all, are we void of consciousness and good? For those of us who are not Christians, but are of other religions, does that mean we have to embrace Christianity in order to be "just"? I would say you are not alluding to any of these examples, yet, by wanting to hold * to his particular faith's tenets, there is the problem of holding everyone to similar standards.

though we haven't been to a UM church in about three years or more.

We are Unitarian Universalists now (UU). We'll soon be changing our affiliation officially.

The UMC is kind of losing its way. It got far too conservative down here for our taste. My friends still go to a UM church, but it's in Austin and is still moderate to liberal. The way most of them used to be. Still concerned with peace and social justice.

The last UM church I attended, the minister gave a sermon on why peace is "overrated." I got up and walked out at the end and never went back. I was sickened.

I grew up with both a Catholic and Methodist background and up until about a year ago, had attended a Methodist church for a number of years because I couldn't resolve my viewpoints with Catholicism at all. After 9/11, I saw an ever-increasing conservative bend and just couldn't stomach it any longer. I tend to believe in the teachings of Christ about behavior and concern myself less with dogmatic rules, strict Biblical interpretations, or petty, societal norms. I've yet to find a Christian Church that is liberal enough for my tastes. I've done to the UU thing a bit and will likely do more in the future.

It's a shame some pastors allow themselves to be sucked into groupthink. I'm so happy that even here in rural Nebraska our church has not gone that way. I don't think it's a problem with the organization overall, but more a localized problem in some areas with some churches. I'm glad you found a comfortable house for fellowship though. :)

It's quite different at my Methodist church here in Ann Arbor.

I'd be honored to be a part of it.

Bush has had some problems in the Methodist heirarchy Bishops. Nothing that has any weight. Since politics and religion mix these days why shouldn't Methodist who have problems with Bush speak out more forcefully? Might be fun and would be willing to return to church for that reason.

seen as evidence that his faith was insincere or that he wasn't who he claimed to be, etc., but bush was given a free pass for being on the opposite side of several issues from his church's stance.
:shrug:
Well, I do understand ... it's because our news media has an agenda, but it's still frustrating.

He also drove a Volkswagon that was recently sold for much more money as a Popemobile.

it's been a thing with liberal catholic politicians since long before he was the pope's right-hand man. And it doesn't work in reverse for conservative catholics. Compare Ted "cafeteria catholic" Kennedy with Pat "conservative Catholic" Buchannan. The press has a double standard about liberals and religion.

of the UMC as far as I know. I haven't been in one for two years, but I haven't been in a church at all for about two years.

I don't know what this would do, except create a massive division in the church and that should be the place people can go and be accepted. I know that is not the case anymore, but still a man can dream, eh?

:hi:

My parents are liberal Methodists and my father-in-law is a minister and a DS (district superintendent). Unfortunately he's also a Bush supporter, which I think he takes pride in...he has admitted to realizing he is offending the other Methodists in his office whenever he's listening to RUSH :puke:

I think there would be more support for holding Bush accountable at my current home church than with my father-in-law. Our youth minister is actually Lutheran and has done a good job of galvanizing the liberals in our church and bringing up human rights issues in worship service.