Am I correct? This is racism, right?

Driving into D.C. on Rte 7 outside Tyson's Corner yesterday I saw a pickup truck pulling a trailer full of lawn equipment. On the tailgate of the trailer the guy(non-Hispanic Caucasian) had spray painted a home made sign that said: "Grass Cutting Service: I am American and I speak English". The racial overtones of that advertisement are obvious, are they not? I say it is racist.

it could be an appeal to racism, or it could be a defense against racism.

Was the guy white?

Around here most ethnically Mexican and Japanese and Indochinese gardeners are US citizens who speak English, so it wouldn't surprise me to see the exact same thing painted on one of their trucks. Potential customers who speak only English might want to be assured they can communicate with their prospective gardener.

And there are a lot of Mexicans around here who do most of the physical labor. So in effect he was singling himself out as being white and making an appeal to other whites.

I'd guess that some do and others do not. I have no problem with a person insisting that a contractor or employee speak English.

a gardening job? Do they have to be your secretary too? Most Hispanics speak some rudimentary English that pertains to their jobs as gardeners. If you want to engage them in a conversation, then you don't want a gardener but a bartender who speaks English.

and I speak no spanish. I think it is important to be able to communicate with someone if you want them to do specific work.

For instance the workers in my apt. just didn't understand that my cats are not allowed outside and that I wanted them to close the door whenever they came in or out. They constantly left the door open.

Also, I wanted to ask them to please cover the entrance to the kitchen before blowing the "texture" on my living room ceiling but that didn't work either so I ended up with a kitchen filled with dust from the work they were doing.

I don't mean to sound racist but I think you really have to be able to communicate with people who are doing work for you.

Why blame people who are probably working for less than minimum wage? It's your greedy landlord, who is at fault here. Cheeze don't blame the victim, because he can't speak English. Blame your landlord. He apparently needs a manager on site, who can communicate with the workers.

I know when I worked in the restaurant business that they hired me for my bi-lingual skills in case something came up that the managers couldn't communicate with beyond the rudimentary language skills both in Spanish and English that both sides had pertaining to the business.

as workers they hire and I was explaining why.

My landlord does speak spanish so she hires workers that she feels comfortable with. I brought in a friend of mine (white, english speaking) to do some work and she didn't want to hire him.

So again, I don't think it is racist to want to hire someone who speaks the same language.

http://dictionary.reference.com/translate/text.html

"mis gatos no se permiten afuera. cierre la puerta siempre que usted venga adentro o vaya afuera. cubra por favor la entrada a la cocina antes de soplar la "textura" en mi techo vivo del sitio."

there's no reason why one can't be bi-lingual nowdays. If you need enough to tell them not to let the cats outside or to cover up the kitchen counters, you can use a translator and write a note.

Are you actually putting the onus on the (in this case) residents? You don't think they have a reasonable expectation to be able to communicate with someone who will be working inside their homes?

For some reason, I just had an interesting mental image of the guy in TX or LA(???) who shot and killed the Japanese(???) trick-or-treater a few years ago.

Instead of blasting away, he could've said "hold on, let me boot up and get online...."

Having said that, you're right that they can be helpful... when they're accurate.

only hires people who don't eloquently speak American English and you need to have your considerations made known (seeing that you did not speak to the English-speaking manager about your considerations when you were informed that maintenence was going to be done on your unit on a particular date), the next best thing to do is to make every effort to see that your considerations are made known. At that moment, it would appear that you're on your own. If it means using a translator to get the gist across, why not take the higher road instead of being mad over something you can't change in the moment?

Being pissed isn't going to make that guy suddenly speak English or make an English speaking maintenence person materialize before your eyes.

thank you

I really don't see anything unreasonable about that.

Most Hispanics speak some rudimentary English that pertains to their jobs as gardeners.

Around here most Hispanics were born here and speak perfect English, and very few of them are gardeners.

If you want to engage them in a conversation, then you don't want a gardener but a bartender who speaks English.

I don't care whether they're a bartender or a gardener, I want the people who I pay to do things to be able to understand my instructions. If they put salt on my margarita glass I might have to put strychnine in the guacamole.

:D

So if your Hispanics are born here and speak perfect English, they aren't looking to be gardeners. Years ago my parents had a Japanese couple who did their gardening. They too barely spoke English, but they were wonderful and knowledgeable gardners. So why do Hispanics have to speak English and not the Japanese?

So if your Hispanics are born here and speak perfect English, they aren't looking to be gardeners.

I'm sure that some of them are gardeners.

So why do Hispanics have to speak English and not the Japanese?

I don't understand your misunderstanding of this very simple discussion.

I was speaking of a HYPOTHETICAL situation in which I, someone who is looking for a gardener to hire, speak and understand only English.

In that situation I'd certainly want a gardener who spoke at least passable English, or I wouldn't be able to communicate with him or her.

There's nothing more to my statement than that. If you still don't understand me, then vaya con Dios.

if you don't share a common language?

If a rich family only spoke spanish, and advertized for a gardener that must speak spanish so that they could communicate, would that be racist?

,...in an environment of flooded competition by marketing his being American and english-speaking. Although one could perceive a form of racism from appearance ONLY, I would argue that this situation, assuming illegal immigration is a component of the competition, reflects that: (1) there are, in fact, Americans who are not only willing to do the hard labor jobs so many neoCONs say they aren't willing to do but also that they are struggling just to get those jobs; (2) the uncontrolled immigration is having a detrimental impact on both Americans (economically) and the immigrants who are increasingly subject to the hard feelings of those who EARNED citizenship; and (3) everyone's wages and quality of life is being lowered by the corporacrats' resistance to enforcing existent immigration laws because of profitteering objectives.

On edit: tweaking via inserting assumption that illegal immigration is involved

...there would have to be something more overt in the message like: "Only non-spick labor used" or something like that*.


* Disclaimer: The term "non-spick" was used here purely for illustrative purposes and was in no way meant to cast derogatory aspersions on people of other ethnic origins.

Comes from growing up in Virginia.

He sounds like a freeper 'english as the official language' asshole.

that is tired of people assuming he's an undocumented immigrant. I can see either scenario - it's probably a reaction to illegal immigration either way. When I lived in El Paso nobody was more contemptuous of "wetbacks" than legal immigrants and naturalized Hispanic citizens.

in a moving truck.

There maybe a large competitive base of non-English speaking, non-residents of the US lawn cutters. I prefer to pay top dollar for American products and services.

No problem seen by me. Nothing wrong with promoting your assets.

Maybe opportunistic in a backwoods sort of way. Now if he would have said White and speaks English - that would be different.

:shrug:

Language is not the same thing as "race". Lots of white and black Americans speak Spanish. Lots of Mexicans and other Hispanics speak ?English.

But even if it is "racist", so what? That's that guy's problem. He doesn't seem to be hurting anyone. People who are offended, like you I'm guessing, don't have to use his services. He might lose business.

Who have large homes and lawns, who feel intimidated by people that speak a different language than they do. That is racism.

just saw a market niche. In any event, it's a pretty harmless form, and people are entitled to associate with whom they choose.

will tell you that there is no harmless form of racism. It's like being a little bit pregnant. This is a literally black and white issue.

mean that it's not wrong. I just mean that no one is being hurt, except maybe their feelings. Sorry, my feelings get hurt all the time. I can't get worked up about it.

promotions, pay raises and housing have been denied to you because of your race. No one gets hurt, but there is plenty of harm to go around. Saying he is an American who speaks English is saying that he isn't those other people but better. Incidentally, many Hispanics are American who speak English, like myself, so he is definitely targetting a specific group that he is different from.

The Hispanics have found a niche market where they could be self-employed and make a little more money than minimum wage and this guy comes along and says, hire me instead because I'm more like you and we are better than them. I hope he's a thief and that the rich people who hired him for racist reasons get ripped off good. Gardening makes the Hispanics a little more money, but it's not a big money maker for a white guy who can get a better paying job elsewhere.

And it has happened repeatedly throughout history, Blacks in the South, Jews in Europe.

are inferring what he may not be implying. Or maybe he is. But your statement about hoping people "get ripped off good" is despicable.

that we should hope for it. It's an observation, not a commandment.

minorities and the poor for ages. Maybe it's their turn for their own to rip them off. Many of these Mexicans or Hispinics that work for these bigoted white people often don't get paid after doing the work or maybe get only a portion of what was agreed to. They can't complain to anyone, so they just have to walk away.

that's a rather large assupmtion, isn't it? Maybe he's tired of competing with competition that doesn't follow the law? not just immigration law, but labour laws, health and safety laws, environmental regulations, taxation, tons of stuff.

the fact remains that hiring a worker without checking on their legal right to work in the United States is a crime. maybe you don't think it should be, but it is, that's why it's cheaper to hire illegal workers, you save on taxes and a risk premium. Illegal immigration, just like all immigration, lowers the wages of the lower economic classes. Maybe he's tired of people taking work away from him?

just a thought.

and, of course, you know that a caucasian can't exhibit racism towards an hispanic, since they're the same race. It's ethnicism, maybe, or languagism, perhaps, but not racism. by definition.

I don't see how language is a race issue to be honest. It might some sort of xenophobia. Or it might be the fact that no one who performs any type of labor in Northern Virginia speaks English. And it can drive you a little batty after a Saturday afternoon of running errands and communicating through sign language.

for a major international company. The call center for all US customers is here in the US. Many of my customers comment on how wonderful it is to talk to someone "...here in the US, that I can understand."

If my company promoted its products by saying, "Buy (BRAND). If you need tech support, our call center is right here in the US, and staffed with English speaking technicians", would that be racist or just smart marketing?

No, it is not racist.

racist things these days is to say only English speaking people are acceptable, which translates, to Hispanics not being acceptable, the target group for the racists of today. They can't call them beaners anymore.

spoke English would then be acceptable. Language discrimination is not the same thing as racism. Frankly, if you want to work for me, you need to speak my language. If I want to work for you, I'll learn yours. You can call it racism, if you like, but that doesn't make it so.

if I spoke with an accent. I worked for a person, who had a large Hispanic clientele and he demanded that his staff speak both languages, not a problem in Los Angles, but the accent? That was another story. I finally told him to take his racist butt and shove it. Finding a bilingual Hispanic who didn't speak with an accent was next to impossible.

I am not that person, so you have no right to say what I would do. I would just want my instructions to be clearly understandable. I don't see that accent matters. Attitude might, though.

Hispanics working for him. He wanted white Americans who spoke Spanish. There are a few out there who lived in SA when they were children. One of my co-workers had grown up in Argentina. She was of Scandinavian decent and you couldn't find anyone more blond and blue-eyed.

I slipped under the radar because I am of mixed parentage and don't look like the typical Hispanic. My surname is Irish too, which helped. At first I wasn't aware of the bigotry, because he hired me, but then he didn't know I was Hispanic. It's not that I lied to him. It just never came up because he had made the erroneous judgement that I wasn't.

discriminated against if I decided not to hire you because you spoke Southern? :think:

because you speak like a Yankee.

Fair is fair.... :evilgrin:

We should just close down our diplomatic offices in other countries by your logic.:eyes:

learn to speak the language of the host country. It's only polite; not to say smart.

Pardon, I don't seem to be following your logic, which, as far as I can tell, does not exist. Perhaps you can help and clarify exactly what you mean for me?

And most diplomats are fat cat donors that contributed to campaigns. You are going to tell me that some Bush donor is going to learn Swahili for a post that my only last for one year? Doubtful.

& they have translators. The situations are not even remotely analogous. So what, exactly, is your point? This is the second time I've asked.

English. However when Americans go abroad, most tend to not learn anything of the country of which they are visiting.

between taking a vacation in another country, and establishing residence there?

And if you are a non-resident of a foreign country, even though you may be living there, you are still a visitor.

Admittedly, I missed your distinction - semantics, probably, but if you're living here aren't you, by definition, a resident? Not a citizen, necessarily, but "resident" seems like the correct term to me, whereas "visitor" implies a short(er) stay....

Having said that, if I, as an American, choose to relocate to another (non-English speaking) country, it's not only incumbent on me to learn the language, it's to my immediate advantage to do so.

Since I'm not familiar enough with data on American expats living in non-English speaking countries to intelligently discuss the percentages of those who learn their new country's language vs those who don't, I'll cop to the error here. Since you didn't provide any bacground info in your previous post on American expats and their language habits while abroad, and your use of the word "visitor", I immediately made the assumption that you were referring to the well known complaint about American tourists abroad. My bad.

IIRC, the point I was attempting to address was your contention that Americans bitch about people coming here w/o learning the language, while doing the same thing abroad, themselves.

So I'll amend my previous statement to say that if I, as an American, choose to relocate to another (non-English speaking) country, whether permanently, recurrently or for any extended period of time, it's not only incumbent on me to learn the language, it's to my immediate advantage to do so.

You have an incurable disease. The expert in this field of medicine is a German doctor who does not speak English. Are you going to hire him? Are you going to let him operate on you?

If it's incurable, why let him cut me? If I can't tell him where it hurts, how is he properly going to diagnose me? Can he communicate with my other doctors?

But if we don't have to communicate, maybe so. Still, a doctor is a lot different from a gardener.

I really don't see the difference.

get too literal. Naturally, if I ran a company, I would obey all civil rights laws. But we were originally talking about yard work. I would want to be able to communicate that this hedge was to be trimmed and that bush was to be pulled up with confidence that I would be understood. If I was hiring a team of roofers, I wouldn't care what they spoke as long as I could communicate with the foreman. A doctor is a professional. I would pay (not hire, he works for himself, or a partnership, or a hospital, not me) for him to do whatever it took.

The language requirement is for my own personal, private convenience. I'm paying the bills, and I intend to get what I want. If this is racist, sue me. So be it.


Sorry that everything has to be spelled out in such detail. It makes it hard to communicate, even in English.

It isn't in my best interest, under any circumstances, to seek medical treatment / advice from someone if I can't implement said advice or follow the treatment procedures. If I were to go abroad for a medical procedure - say a cancer treatment in Baja, f'rinstance, I'd accept that the responsibility for communication was mine, and would make the necessary arrangements. Stateside, however, the burden would be on the MD / hospital. I can't imagine any hospitals hiring a Dr who can't communicate w/the patients - too much liability.


BUT... lawncare (as in your OP) isn't on par with life-saving medical treatment. It's a service for which people pay. By exchanging $$ for service, the customers do have the right to expect their requests / instructions to be followed (standard disclaimers: within reasonable parameters, as long as they're legal, YMMV). In order for their requests / instructions to be followed, they have to be understood. It's (primarily) the responsibility of the service provider, as a Good Business Practice, to ensure that they know what the customer wants. A language barrier is a legitimate concern.

EDITING TO ADD: Don't recall specifically saying this anywhere in our exchange, but I'm not too thrilled by the "I'm an American" part of his sign - most (maybe all) of my comments have been directed toward the language angle, or to the question of racism vs xenophobia / nationalism.

I'm going to the Bunny Ranch.

I assume you didn't mean incurable though. So...no...I would not go to a doctor who I could not communicate with. First of all, how could I tell him what my symptons were? How could I know what I was supposed to do?

Maybe if I had a fantastic translator, I would go.

But the second-best doctor in the world who spoke English would be my choice.

It's your funeral.

If I develop some kind of horrible, inoperable cancer, I don't intend to spend my last days getting zapped by radiation. I'm going to become a Tim McGraw song.

But I'd give it the old college try for a while.

I still don't know what good a doctor speaking in sign language would do for me.

up hope? I don't see it that way - seems more like we're making an effort to do what's required. And to understand what's required.

Frankly, (I think this is forgethell's, theboss' and my point) if I can't understand whether he's saying DO xxxx or DON'T DO xxxx, I don't see that there's a whole lotta hope there to begin with.

I might here the world "milk" and think I need lots and lots of milk.

And what he said was, "Don't drink milk. It will kill you."

I'm amazed that people are getting all het up over folks thinking that it's not ridiculous to expect to be able to communicate with those with whom we do business, whether it's lifesaving or banal.

learn to speak the language. If you come to live here, you should.

They treat tourists who don't speak English with a contempt that makes me want to slap them. Yet, they would trot around Europe gleefully expecting everyone to speak English (and yes, I've met those Americans on BOTH sides of the ocean).

Most of the gardeners where I live are hispanic and some don't speak much English (though certainly enough to do the work competently, I believe they do have words for grass, lawn, etc. :sarcasm:).

If someone advertises in a way described in the OP, they are using their potential customers' racism to garner work, because they know that most of their competition is hispanic. Saying that he speaks English is insinuating that his hispanic competition doesn't, which is misrepresentation, and again appeals to the ignorance of racists who just ASSUME that they don't speak English.

I would NEVER hire someone who advertised in such a way. And anyone who does is contributing to the problem. Instead, they should think about the fact that their gardeners most likely speak more languages than they do.

follow the thread closely, did you?

My post still stands, even though apparently someone did bring diplomats into the equation. Pretend my post is in another spot then, in answer to your arguments that the advertisement isn't racist. Or just give me another blithe response that means nothing. It's clear that your definition of racism leaves a lot to be desired.

language, but do share the same living space. :hi:

all diplomats to other foreign countries. (Sometimes I get so miffed at the way a conversation is going I jump in before I've read ALL the responses... I'm sure I'm not the only one. :hi:)

When you have a job to be done, its important that communication occurs.

I'm happy to conduct business in either language and a don't care even slightly what people look like, but please don't suggest that as a customer I should be obligated to employ the services of someone who speaks only a language that is completely incomprehensible to me. Nor would I want to hire an overt racist.

If someone wants to advertise that he speaks English and that's all he says I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt about his racial attitudes.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

indicating he wasn't one of them. All racists assume that all Hispanics are illegal and non-American somehow.

Possible post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

But if you do, that's fine with me.

That means I am not them, the non-Americans, who don't speak English. He might as well have said, "I'm not a beaner", because that is what he meant.

It is how people are justifying their hatred of Arabs, Islam, and Moslems.

Its right up there with the yellow pages ads with the fish on them. he is advertising for those who prefer to hire americans. Having a preference in hiring based on national origin is illegal. Having a preference in hiring based on religion is illegal. This advertisement is just as offensive as a help wanted ad reading "whites only need apply."

And can you cite a source for your contention that it's illegal to hire based on national origin?

Wouldn't that also mean that Minority Set-asides in contracting are illegal?

i think it was definitely an attempt to get the people who whine about "them" taking "our" jobs to put their money where there mouth is. there is a fine line, and i am not sure which side of the line this is on. it's right there, no doubt.

step 1. identify the other
step 2. hate/kill the other.

i don't think that everyone who sees people as other goes on to step 2. i don't think that you are a racist until you get to step 2.

I'm sorry, but that's a very narrow definition of racism. Racism is a lot subtler than bull connor sicking the dogs on civil rights marchers.

my real point is that just seeing someone as different does not make you racist. it is where you go from there. i was just using the common expressions of racism to make a point.

and i think a distinction can be made between xenophobia and racism, although I think most frequently they're intertwined.

I just felt compelled to make a clarification because, for example, a black man who is denied for a housing loan that he's qualified for isn't necessarily the victim of hate, but he is the victim of racism. I think racism is still a huge problem in this country, but often things which are pretty clearly racist are dismissed because no cross was burned, if you know what I mean.

I'm not saying that you're someone who would dismiss subtler forms of institutional racism, etc., but I think it's important to remember that racism is more than burning crosses and wearing swastikas.

Racism has become caricatured in our society in a way that makes it less threatening--not less threatening for minorities, but less threatening for whites, who can say "I'm not racist, I think the Klan is whack" and thus think the issue settled, even as they buy into steretypes about african-americans, immigrants, hispanics, etc.

See attitudes exhibited by (some) Americans towards France Freedom or Soviet Canuckistan as an example of non-racist xenophobia.

IS racism, by the governments own definiition.

Because every definition of racism I'm able to find bases the -ism on race <surprise, surprise>, not national origin.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_68172.htm

The concept of race as used by the Census Bureau reflects self-identification by people according to the race or races with which they most closely identify. These categories are sociopolitical constructs and should not be interpreted as being scientific or anthropological in nature. Furthermore, the race categories include both racial and national-origin groups.

You must have overlooked the specified categories which followed that paragraph:


The racial classifications used by the Census Bureau adhere to the October 30,1997, Federal Register Notice entitled,"Revisions to the Standards for the Classification of Federal Data on Race and Ethnicity" issued by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB).

White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish.

Black or African American. A person having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "Black, African Am., or Negro," or provide written entries such as African American, Afro American, Kenyan, Nigerian, or Haitian.

American Indian and Alaska Native. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who maintain tribal affiliation or community attachment.

Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. It includes "Asian Indian," "Chinese," "Filipino," "Korean," "Japanese," "Vietnamese," and "Other Asian."

Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, or other Pacific Islands. It includes people who indicate their race as "Native Hawaiian," "Guamanian or Chamorro," "Samoan," and "Other Pacific Islander."

Some other race. Includes all other responses not included in the "White", "Black or African American", "American Indian and Alaska Native", "Asian" and "Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander" race categories described above. Respondents providing write-in entries such as multiracial, mixed, interracial, Wesort, or a Hispanic/Latino group (for example, Mexican, Puerto Rican, or Cuban) in the "Some other race" category are included here.

Two or more races. People may have chosen to provide two or more races either by checking two or more race response check boxes, by providing multiple write-in responses, or by some combination of check boxes and write-in responses.

Comparability. The data on race in Census 2000 are not directly comparable to those collected in previous censuses.

The concept of race is separate from the concept of Hispanic origin. Percentages for the various race categories add to 100 percent, and should not be combined with the percent Hispanic. Tallies that show race categories for Hispanics and nonHispanics separately are also available.




Basically, the USCB allows respondents to self-identify any way they want, but categorizes races in the above, narrowly-defined terms... by race.

Additionally, the Federal Register Notice named at the beginning of the Census quote says

The new federal guidelines will allow students and employees to indicate more than one racial category, using the following five categories as a minimum (more detail will be allowed within each category): American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Black or African American, Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, and White. The American Indian or Alaska Native category has been changed to include individuals from South American and Central American countries.

Ergo discriminating against somebody because of their national origin is racism by definition. Looks pretty solid to me.

quoting your quote:

Furthermore, the race categories include both racial and national-origin groups.

Besides which, the purpose of the (highly controversial at the time) 2000 Census recategorizing was to allow respondents to self-identify as they saw fit. Their responses were then incorporated into the appropriate *true* racial categories as defined in the bulletin I posted above. Repeating:


The minimum standards for the separate format also include five categories for data on race (with instructions to select one or more, as appropriate):

American Indian or Alaska Native
Asian
Black or African American
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White

The Combined Format:


When self-reporting is not practicable or feasible, a combined reporting format may be used for observer-collected data on race and ethnicity. In such cases, there will be six minimum racial/ethnic categories (with instructions to select one or more, as appropriate):

American Indian or Alaska Native
Asian
Black or African American
Hispanic or Latino
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander
White

Everybody knows "mexicans" do a better job for less money.:-)

No one has a bit of confusion what the sign's intent was. The OP says it was a white guy. A white guy with that sign ..... sorry .... racism. Not as overt as some, but racism none the less.

And on Rt 7 outside Tyson's ..... ? that's the border line between liberal leaning "NoVa" and redneck Lowdown (Loudon) County.

Just my view ...... based on what the OP says.

edit to add ..... and *they* are likely not Mexicans in this area ... the Hispanic population in the DC area is very diverse.

and use the phrase "redneck" in your post.

Class prejudice, unfortunately, is acceptable even among the most exquisitely sensitive "liberals" and "progressives."

much like shithead or fuckwad. Hardly classist.

Rich or poor, rednecks are rednecks ..... and we all know the meaning of the word.

Besides ... I never heard of the 'redneck' race .... or class ... :shrug:

person has ever been tagged with this? Redneck refers to people of a specific race and culture.

Your "rich or poor" comment sounds like the same thing people say when they use the N-word. We all know the meaning of THAT word also.

We all have to investigate our own prejudices and preconceived ideas about a people, maybe it is time that you do also.

The notion that "redneck" has no race or class meaning couldn't possibly be any more wrong.

In this case it's in the minds of those as shallow as his. Just like the Chimp-In-Chief, he's appealing to his base.


And when I say base, I mean base.


:kick:

I have a liquor store near where I work that has a large sign that says "American Owned". Now that is 100% blatant racism.

Funny thing is, they are 2 dollars more on my beverage of choice than the Vietnamese owned store near my house. So guess who gets my business? The friendly, polite, value giving Vietnamese owned store and I buy cigarettes and cold beer at the Vietnamese owned store across the street from them.

I remember about 15 years ago when some of the motels in small towns around here had large signs proclaiming their american ownership.

When these store owners get tired of them having to proclaim their "Americaness" They will make it so every non-American business has to proclaim it's non-American staus. Where have I heard that before? Hmmmm...

I have been thinking the same thing, not only about Hispanics but just being a registered Democrat. When half the population gets excommunicated from their church, I think we have something to worry about, not only Hispanics and gays.

already has something looks a lot like this in the window. I wonder if the Rosenblatts know?

That distinguished it as a Jewish owned business. I doubt it.

themselves as a jewish deli with a Star of David in the window. Obviously, they believe this will attract business. Racism?

I just haven't been out to any of the smaller towns in about 25 years. I think the one I saw was around Watonga.

ANd.. as some people here have missed, he is caucasian. He's not a hispanic that fears people will assume he's illegal or non-english speaking.. it was a freeper saying that he's basically white and non-foreign. It is like a code to the racist customers.

the one with the big El Salvadorean flag in the window, and the signs in the window in Spanish only, it also is racist? since it obviously is advertising for business based on the fact that the owner is El Salvadorean and speaks Spanish?

how about Rosenblatt's Kosher Deli big ol' Star of David in the window? Racist for advertising that its owned by a Jew?

Or O'Malley's Pub, lots of Gaelic on the sign, big Irish flag. Racist for advertising its Irishness?

Abita Halal Butcher? Arabic sign, Arabic writing on the window and the menu, Ethiopian flag. Racist?

Yes or no? which one of these four is racist, or is just their customers? if they are not racist, please tell me why it is acceptable for an El Salvadorean, and Ethiopian or and Irishman to advertise their nationality and language skills to separate themselves from the competition, but not acceptable for this guy?

Seriously, I want an answer.

Those places are not saying "have a beer at my Irish pub, don't have one at the Mexican cantina." Him being white and clearly stating his nationality and language skills in a market that is dominated by a another ethnic group and hoping that you pick him over that ethnic group is racist. He is differentiating himself by race. That is racism.

if I only have money to go to one place, they believe that being Irish will attract me to their bar. I can't patronize both at the same time, so they are enticing me to patronize them by playing up national origin, which you called racism, right?

find a good Guinness. And... interestingly, I have actually been to both Irish AND Mexican restaurants. :wow: Not once was I compelled to go to one or the other by anything other than my stomach. This is really reaching.

even at a Mexican restaurant.

but let me get this straight. A White American advertises his national origin and language skills to attract people interested in hiring him and he's racist. A hispanic El Salvadorean does the same and he's not.

how is that?

And I've seen enough of your posts to know that no amount of logic will sway you from your own. I stopped beating my head against walls about a week ago. :hi:

but an Ethiopian one isn't. If your logic is that only the dominant culture can be racist?

Can't someone tell me why a gardening business that says 'American owned' is inherently more racist than a convenience store that says "El Savaldorean owned." surely someone can tell me the difference. But no one has yet, so I can only assume that there is no real difference, and that people are uncomfortable simply saying that.

The same logic is used by those who oppose AA.

we're discussing whether or not you can advertise a service based on national origin and language skills. You say yes, apparently, as long as those aren't American and English. I find it curious that you would not hold everyone to the same standards of racism. If something is ethical for one person, then it is equally ethical for a any person in the same situation.

racism is a corrosive evil in every way, shape or form. And no, I don't think there should be Affirmative Action. I don't believe it is acceptable for any organisation to hire or promote someone on the basis of race. Nor should they promote someone on the basis of sex, religion, ethnicity or height. (and any company that care who their employees date, screw or fall in love with really has issues) Any company that declines to take advantage of talent because of such stupid reasons I want to know about, so I can not invest in them, but it should never be mandated.

It should also not be mandated that a school seek to have 'diversity' based on skin color. What needs to happen is that we work to ensure that every 18 year old high school graduate in this country can compete on a level playing field. By the time we look at college, or law school, it's too late. Fix the elementary schools, and affirmative action becomes meaningless, the companies that attract and keep the best talent, regardless of skin color, sex or religion will thirve and outcompete the ones that don't. Let's work on getting a level playing field from the start, not give tokens to the successful few thinking that somehow helps the disregarded millions.

It would be a waste of time for me to continue an argument with someone who argues against Affirmative Action.

get it? 30 years in, it's failed. it Jumpstarted corporate integration, but it has stalled. We need a new model. you cannot build a diverse society, where everyone has opportunity by improving the lot of a select few and ignoring everyone else. You can only do it by working at the basiclevel to improve the starting point for everyone to a level field so that there is equal chance for everyone.

I don't want Harvard to go out looking to fill a quota of 18% black people in the freshman class. I want to improve the education and health system in the US so that 18% of the applicants are black and that 18% of the acceptances are black, because that's the population.

How many more years are you willing to ignore the very real problems in black america and claim that Affirmative Action is working? should we give it another 30? think the lot of the average black person in the US will be any better? I want a racially blind society, and Affirmative Action isn't getting us there, so we need something else. Unless you're content with how things are?

No, these businesses are advertising the fact that they may have products and wares that are sought after by specific communities or cultures or religions or even *gasp* races... how else will people be able to know which stores will carry the specific ethnic or cultural products or food they are seeking?

Tell me one way in which gardening would fall in the category of needing special advertisement because of it's "American" ownership. Looking for a special American style lawn mowing, or maybe some kosher clipping? Please.

that the El Salvadorean bodega and the Ethiopian one both sell the same junk food, cigarettes and beer that the other does.

and the Irish bar sells the same Guinness, Miller and Budwieser that every other bar in the city sells. they don't have special 'Irish' beer you can only get at an Irish bar, I can get the exact same beer at Applebees.

It is either racist to offer a service based on your ethnicity, or it isn't. It is either racist to advertise your business based on national origin or it isn't. It would be just as wrong for the bodega to refuse me service, or not hire me based on my ethnicity as it would be for Denny's to refuse service or employment to an El Salvadorean based on ethnicity, right?

THe Bodega sells cigarettes, beer and junk food. just like the 7-11. what's the difference?

it is not discriminatory... rather it is demonstrating that the owners of the establishment are gay or gay-friendly, making it more attractive a place to shop or eat. Not because of the bigotry of the owners, but because of the bigotry of others. I prefer to go to a gay bar than a straight one, and I prefer to know that it is a gay bar.

I go to an Irish restaurant for the atmosphere, the beer, the food, the darts, whatever. Certainly not because it's owned by anyone Irish. In fact, my favorite Irish pub was owned by a couple of lesbians who didn't have a drop of Irish blood. I doubt that the majority of Houlihan's are Irish-owned either. Has nothing to do with race.

Racism is a phenomenon of the ruling "race" over others... not the reverse. The answer to whether it is racist to offer a service based on your ethnicity is that it is possible that it could be racist, if white Americans were anywhere near as oppressed as the groups they oppress.

And this?

"It would be just as wrong for the bodega to refuse me service, or not hire me based on my ethnicity as it would be for Denny's to refuse service or employment to an El Salvadorean based on ethnicity, right?

Uh... yes, it would. What does that have to do with this? Has your bodega refused to serve you or hire you, or do you know of some other white person that they refused to hire? Do you even know a white person who has sought employment there? When did discrimination in service and employment come into play here?

Racism is a phenomenon of the ruling "race" over others... not the reverse. The answer to whether it is racist to offer a service based on your ethnicity is that it is possible that it could be racist, if white Americans were anywhere near as oppressed as the groups they oppress.

racism, by very definition, is the preference for one race over another. It doesn't say WHAT race. But you seem to think that only white English-speaking heterosexual American-citizen males are capable of being racist, and that's flat out bullshit. If someone who's clientele is primarily English-speaking Americans advertising his ability to speak English as an American is racist, then someone who's primry clientele is Spanish-speaking Guatemalans advertising his ability to speak Spanish and Guatemalan nationality is just as racist.

unless your idea that only the 'ruling' race can be racist holds true, which means the bodega could, in fact, refuse me service, right? since I'm a member of the 'ruling' race?

Refusing you service absolutely could be racist... advertising that the store is Guatemalan is not. We were talking about OFFERING a service, not DENYING one. Most stores that advertise their nationality do it because they have wares that are desired by others of that nationality. Or specific wares associated with that nationality. Or, as in my example of a gay establishment, an atmosphere of community that offers an escape from bigotry.

that if an English-speaking American feels more comfortable patronising an English-speaking American that it's racism, where if a Spanish-speaking Guatemalan feels more comfortable patronising a Spanish-speaking Guatemalan it's not racism?

I've already explained that the convenience store carries the same stuff as the 7-11, smokes, snacks and beer. Nothing from El Salvador. they simply want to attract the business of the Spanish-speaking El Salvadoreans in the neighborhood who are more comfortable patronising a store run by fellow El Salvadoreans. There is nothing there I can't get at 7-11. nothing. I've looked. So it's racist advertising, based on national origin, right?

can you please explain, simply, why one store that says 'El Salvadorean' is fine, while the IDENTICAL store (a hypothtical) that says "American" is racist. Both sell the exact same things. Both cater to people who would rather deal with people who speak their language and share a culture. Both are racist. yes or no?

read my post where I already answered... it is to provide a haven from the bigotry that exists outside the establishment. Why don't you get THAT?

what, someone won't sell you smokes? Maybe this gardener faced bigotry of his own, people used to hiring immigrants wouldn't give him work? You basically cannot work in the construction, landscaping or hospitality industry in the US without speaking Spanish. I know, I've done all three (and yes, I speak enough Spanish to get by) Maybe that made him uncomfortable, so he advertised for people he'd feel comfortable doing business with. by your logic, that's ok.

And there's another problem. DC's a political town, out in the 'burbs as well. There is a price to be paid, politicaly (and legally) for hiring someone who is not legally allowed to work in the United States. Maybe people don't want to take that risk, and would rather hire someone where there is less risk? The Identification system is a joke, I can get you a fake green card for $1,000 down the block. maybe that's a risk people don't want to take?

If you went to an upscale Italian Restaurant and they had a sign that read 'Authentic Italian Cuisine by an Authentic Italian Chef' would you consider that racist?

Nuff Said.

But if I am reading it right, you are saying that only Caucasians that speak English know how to garden?

it is intended to mean only Americans speak English. Either way, it has nothing to do with the OP, unless it is an expression of solidarity with the lawn chef.

What I'm saying is that it is marketing.

Someone saying " you'll like me better as a landscaper because I'm american and speak english well" is no different than another saying " you'll like my cooking better because I'm an Italian straight from Italy"

:hi:

How does that make you better at cutting lawns?

Or what if you were an American who was mute? Or spoke Onondaga?

It matters what his potential clients think. By just simply putting that on his vehicle doesn't make it fact. He is just trying to imply to his target market that because he is an american that speaks english well that he is a better choice. Just as the chef is implying to his market that because he is an italian his food will taste better. Now it doesn't mean I, or you, have to agree that he will do lawns better, or communicate and understand his clients desires better, what matters is that his target market feels that way. And if they do, then so be it. It is marketing, not racism.

Hatred of non-Americans, who happen to be Mexican. And how is this not racism?

Why is it that every other nationality in the world can tout their ethnicity or origin for marketing purposes but Americans? Every other nationality has businesses here that in some way shows pride to their background, such as the Authentic Italian cuisine example. Why can't Americans have pride in being American without being racist?

First off, I would think it a positive job requirement to state you are an American rather than an illegal immigrant. Nothing racist there. Secondly, within an English speaking community, I would think it to be imperative that the clients can easily communicate their wishes to their landscaper, without instructions or preferences being misunderstood because of a lack of linguistic skills. Nothing racist there either. It is marketing.

doesn't mean you are saying you are not an illegal immigrant. Plenty of Mexican immigrants in this country have green card status. It is racist because he is differentiating himself from the known workforce who happen to be mostly Hispanic. That is the definition of racism.

the massage therapist that advertises "Oriental Massage Therapist". There are plenty of massage therapists that aren't oriental. This one is trying to differentiate from the others because of nationality.

So, again, is that racist too? Would you post a thread complaining about that ad? If so, then there are a million others out there like that you'd have to address as well. And if not, then it is a double standard and lesson in hypocrisy.

:hi:

It doesn't speak to the masseuse/masseurs racial background. If I went to get a Thai massage, I wouldn't be so close minded that I would expect the person to be of Thai national origin.:eyes:

I didn't say 'oriental massage' I said 'oriental massage therapist'. That means the THERAPIST is ORIENTAL. I see ads like that all the time.

So is that racist too? Or just double standard and hypocrisy.


:hi:

An Italian chef is preparing ITALIAN cuisine, therefore, the idea is that he will be better at preparing the food since it is a staple of his nationality.

An Oriental massage is, like the above poster said, a type of massage, so the implication (whether true or not) is that an Oriental person would be better at performing this particular type of massage than a non-Oriental person.

For those analogies to work with the guy in the truck, it would have to imply that mowing lawns is an American custom, therefore an American would be better at it, but obviously that's nonsense.

The parts of the analogy are identical. The owner of the business is using their nationality to market an impression to their target market that they are a better candidate. They are the same.

Do all orientals give better oriental type massages? NO

Do all Italians cook Italian food better? NO

Do all Americans cut lawns better? NO

If their target market feels they each do in fact do those things better, is it ok to market that way? YES

If any thing "most people" would have the proclivity to believe that Mexicans are far superior to doing lawn maintence because they tend to be employed at it in throughout the country.

If his target market feels otherwise, then so be it.

Not to mention, are you completely missing the fact that there are a ton of Americans that are in fact Mexican???

Now, if the slogan said "Non-Mexican, Non-Black, Non-Hindu, Non-Asian, Non-Arab, Non-Hispanic, Non-Italian, Non-Spanish, Non-French, Non-African, Non-Norwegian, Non-Kurzakistanian, Non-Prussian American that speaks English well".. Well, then maybe the whole argument would carry any validity.

I live in the area and I may find myself in the position to hire a gardener.

I'm technically in Old Navy's target market, but their commercials irk the hell out of me, so I don't shop there.

Marketing efforts aren't intended to win over every single person in the target market. They are there simply to reach the majority. Furthermore, not all marketing tactics are ultimately effective. Many Fail. Regardless, this is still marketing, not racism.

Merely because you can justify it (to yourself, and poorly I might add) doesn't change the fact that that man was advertising with the hope that they would choose him over a person of Hispanic origin. In effect he is singling out all people of Hispanic origins and using it in his advertising method.

From the Census Bureau website:

Definition:
The concept of race as used by the Census Bureau reflects self-identification by people according to the race or races with which they most closely identify. These categories are sociopolitical constructs and should not be interpreted as being scientific or anthropological in nature. Furthermore, the race categories include both racial and national-origin groups.

It could simply be an indication of Citizenship. Some people may prefer hiring citizens over non-citizens. That's not racism and its not discrimination based on national origin. Someone from El Salvador or Vietnam or Russia has a different "national origin" than someone born in the USA. But they may not be citizens. Or they might, if they had obtained their citizenship.

My take is that he was indicating that he was probably trying indicate that he wasn't an immigrant, but frankly unless you saw the guy you'd have no way of knowing whether he was Asian, Hispanic or Caucasian. In the end, I don't think he was being racist -- just advertising that (a) he isn't an immigrant (and that could include a caucasian immigrant) and (b) he speaks English.

onenote

I'm saying it's more reasonable to assume that "authentic Italian cuisine from an authentic Italian chef" is more reasonable than "authentic American lawns mowed by an authentic American."

Hey, I'm not the one saying the sign is racist. I just suggested that it does make me infer a lot more negative things about the guy driving the truck or those people who would hire him based solely on the fact that he's an American and speaks english, than someone who wants to eat Italian food prepared by an Italian chef.

How about those that wish to support someone based on ideological factors?

Like I don't support Wal-mart but I will support Costco? Why? because they exhibit behaviors that are in sync with my belief system.


Who's to say that rather than boil it all down to simple hatred - perhaps it's somebody willing to support the American Worker because he's an endangered species. And you can understand him and he can understand you?

might he be using in his marketing?

flawed.

Cutting grass is not related to anything having to do with race, nationality or ethnicity.

Try again.

This has been addressed in multiple ways already.

I never said it technically does. Also, Tampons have nothing to do with Tennis but that doesn't stop OB from using it as a marketing tool...

you are talking about buying ad space.

This is racist.

by telling people to buy American cars? Or American Apparel, which bills itself as the last Union-made, US-manufactured clothing line? In fact anything that advertises itself as "made in the USA" is inherently racist marketing since it appeals to people to buy something based soley on it's place of origin?

right?

... hardly racist.

we learned earlier in this thread that discrimination based on national origin if racist. therefor saying 'don't buy a car made in Germany, buy one made in the US' is racist. it has to be, or the definition is wrong.

Plus, you don't think there are undertones of 'don't buy a car made by them Asians' in there?

Hitler had a bust of Henry Ford on his desk.

the founder of Ford was a racist asshole, we got that. He's also been dead for 50 years. Hitler also commissioned the design for the Volkswagen Bug. Does that make everyone who drives it a Nazi?

You specifically said that discrimination based on national origin is racism, I'm willing to accept that, only if all discrimination based on national origin is racism. can we agree on that?

Thanks for clarifying your post and welcome to DU.

:toast:

Sorry, but it is, you cannot make your decision as to hiring on the basis of national origin. This is the law under Title 7 of the civil rights act of 1964. Unfortunately, this applies only to employers, and not individuals hiring a contractor or patronizing a restaurant. But it is still discrimination based on national origin, and the advertising is a means to facilitate that discrimination. It would be illegal for a restaurant to advertise "Italians only need apply."

But the sign wasn't an offer for employment. If it were, yes, he could not demand they be of a specific origin, but he could definitely demand they speak english. Furthermore, any citizen of this country whether italian, russian, mexican, hindu, is an American.

That would be funny.

:)

So when you say you're "American", you could be saying you're an American citizen (but you might be Salvadoran, or Russian, or Vietnamese in "national origin"). Or you could be saying that you were born in the USA (in which case you'd be American by citizenship and national origin,even if your parents were Asian or Hispanic, etc).

onenote

Anyone born here is a citizen. Every citizen is an American. Aren't we saying the same thing? I don't see the difference.

I wasn't attempting to disagree -- just to reinforce the point that someone who advertises themselves as American doesn't really tell people much about their ethnicity or background.

onenote

:hi:

Being born on American soil does not confer citizenship. Puerto Ricans are United States Nationals.

will get a lot of business from equally racist people. I once knew a guy who wouldn't hire hispanic maids because they weren't white. At that time we had a lot of Belfast Irish immigrating from the troubles in Northern Ireland, so he had a ready supply of white women deperate for work to hire that were white.

I'm sure he'll get business from others of his ilk.

Hispanics on many occasions.

Just like those arrogant americans who mutter under their breath whenever they encounter someone who speaks (what they consider) poor English "It's America, learn to speak the language", then go to a foreign country and expect everyone to speak English.

The guy is an opportunist who is using others' racism to promote his service. It's racist.

He's definitely advertising that he's not an illegal immigrant and that he speaks english (read: "you can give me special instructions and I will understand them").

Is it racist to not encourage illegal immigration by not hiring illegal immigrants? And nothing drives people nuttier than trying to trying to get something across to someone and not being understood (especially when there's money involved).

I can certainly think of other things he might say on his sign that definitely would be racist. Given the situation, he might actually be advertising his "advantages" pretty politely.

eom

If this white guy is competing for work with illegal aliens, he is probably a convicted felon who can't get hired on any normal basis. On the other hand, most Mexican landscapers in California, at least, have graduate degrees. You can't even work counter at a taqueria in SF unless you have at least a master's. So, the question is, do you want to work out communication the way humans of different cultures have been doing for hundreds of thousands of years--with a person that you know is smart and highly motivated to succeed? Or would you rather let a criminal into your yard just because he is white?

,...a master's."

You have a very interesting perspective.

",...(d)o you want to work out communication the way humans of different cultures have been doing for hundred of thousands of years,..."

There are increasing numbers of Filipina doctors and lawyers working here as nurses and paralegals. The Mexican with the leaf blower on your street might be an architect or an engineer. Why do they take these shitty jobs, you ask? Simple: they pay more. You make more money blowing leaves around in LA than you do designing machines in Mexico City.

Just one of the wonderful things we do to the rest of the world. Enjoy the benefits while it lasts. There are a lot of really educated interesting people walking around this country, still, you just have to learn a little Spanyol to find out...

,...that, "brain drain". However, we all suffer the consequences. This highly educated person makes less hourly pay now than she did as a cocktail waitress to support her JD. That was 14 years ago. *yikes*

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

Why is an English speaker in Northern Virginia even bothering with yard work at this point. You can hire a dozen gardeners at the local 7-11 for $40 and case of Miller Light.

The same as Reagan's line about "welfare queens" wasn't aimed at blacks.

...would be diminished. But the "I am American...: crap that precedes it makes his point pretty clear. That would have pissed me off too.

Sometimes you have to think for a moment on those things.. but that is absolutely offensive. Reminds me of my Father in law, who tells all his friends and family that you "gotta get you a mexican" to do your yard work. Born and raised in the South, thinks that's perfectly acceptable.

When he was chatting them up about his new house. I assume the person he was speaking to asked him if he did the yard work on the week-ends and his reply was: "Hell no, that is what Mexicans are for." Pissed me off to no end.:grr:

nt

some negative intentions. But it really isn't racist; what if the driver was a minority you thought this man was being prejudice against?

For one thing, you don't know what his motive was. But I think it's likely that he's simply playing to potential customers' preference for hiring 1) an American citizen, and 2) someone who speaks English. I don't see that as racist at all. If the man himself has a problem with non-Americans and non-English speakers, that isn't necessarily racisim either. He may have prejudices, ethnocentricities, nationalist fervor, but it doesn't mean he's a racist.

It is, however, a bit rude.

If the competition is only hispanic, the border between the two becomes very thin.

As I said to the other person who replied to me, it's appealing to base instincts, at best.

But when you use advertising that differentiates yourself from an ethnic group/competitor that is racism, plain and simple.

that you are different from other people racist? It may appeal to base instincts in this case, but I really don't see racism here. You don't even know if he is referencing people of other "races".

Particularly when it is put in context of the current hysteria about Mexican lawn workers.

If I used a sign like that for my business, to "market" to tenants, I'd get sued and shut down by Equal Housing Opportunity.

http://www.hud.gov/news/release.cfm?content=pr05-056.cfm

The goal of the new campaign is to make tenants and their landlords as well as homebuyers, realtors, borrowers, and lenders aware of federal law as prohibiting discrimination in housing based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, familial status, or disability.

“Our latest Housing Discrimination Study found that Hispanics experience discrimination one in four times that they attempt to rent a home,” said Carolyn Peoples, HUD's Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity. “As a result of the findings, we have placed additional emphasis on education and outreach to the Hispanic community...

In fact, I think his sign may be illegal. It's illegal to bring race, religion, national origin, and sex into it when doing business. It certainly IS illegal for someone to hire him based on his sign and it would be difficult to prove he wasn't hired due to his "marketing" strategy.

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

What Are the Federal Laws Prohibiting Job Discrimination?

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII), which prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;

what I will do:

I will describe for you what peoples' reactions would be around here (Dallas).

White, English-speaking people would read that and turn to their white, English-speaking companion and say "Thank GOD. At least there's SOMEONE mowing lawns who can speak English!"

Then they might have a good chuckle. Maybe make some comments about how some things, at least, ARE right in the world.

(It's code. And not very subtle code, either. You decide whether it's racist or not, but I am certain it sends a message: "Tired of lawn mowing services run by guys who can't even speak English? Hire me!")

http://www.ucop.edu/raohome/certs/41cfr60.html

The contractor will, in all solicitations or advertisements for employees placed by or on behalf of the contractor, state that all qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

This guy is a private contractor or subcontractor. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it's also illegal for private subcontractors to advertise this way.

(rebolding to emphasize the part I believe you missed)

The contractor will, in all solicitations or advertisements for employees placed by or on behalf of the contractor, state that all qualified applicants will receive consideration for employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

Ignorant and anti-immigrant

Definitely!

The ignorant pig with the sign is essentially "redlining." Anyone who hires him, is breaking the law.

The article below explores racist advertising and business practices, but makes several points that are applicable to this situation.

Excerpts:

http://www.salemstate.edu/~aharris/res/Michigan%20Journal%20of%20Race%20and%20Law.doc

Our laws promote equality and social justice, safeguard individual liberties, and prohibit some forms of discrimination. However, many of the messages we receive in advertising are inferentially racist: we absorb them and incorporate them into our own individual value systems without even noticing. As a result, our cultural communications system can undermine the values of our democracy if we are not vigilant in identifying and correcting behavior that is unfair to certain segments of our community.

This article examines the phenomenon of race-based targeted marketing as a contributing factor to the racial tension of our media age, and evaluates the role of government regulation in preventing the dissemination of racist messages through advertising

Yet racism is far more insidious than even these (mostly) overt incidents indicate. As our culture has increased in sophistication and diversity, racism is seldom explicitly verbalized. More and more often, racism is the invisible thread of our American quilt

Inferential racism and subtle discrimination is not limited to politics, of course. If we look closely, we can find examples throughout our culture

The real estate and banking industries provide examples of the strong connection between inferential racism and discriminatory practice. The failure of these two industries to adequately serve minority populations is well-documented. This discrimination has resulted in the passage of federal laws to combat these practices, especially "redlining" . Despite these laws, the practice of "steering" customers to neighborhoods based on their race is still a problem and has now begun to surface on the newest advertising medium, the Internet.

Con't

at a bodega owned and operated by an El Salvadorean family. They have a flag in the window, and their signs are in Spanish. Yet I patronize them, does that make me a criminal?


there is no connection between being El Salvadorean and running a convenience store, therefore the fact they advertise their El Salvadorean status must be racist and illegal, right?

if not, please tell me the difference. really.

the same as this lawn mower guy. I have only one lawn to get mowed. I only shop at one convenience store. This guy isn't saying "don't hire people who don't speak english" he's saying "hire me beacuse I do speak english" My local bodega isn't saying "don't go to the Ethiopian place down the street" it's saying "come here cause we speak Spanish."

I really don't see the difference. If one is racist, the other must be as well, both are using national origin and language skills to attract a clientelle that is comfortable with those things. If the lawnmower is racist, then so's the bodega. you can't escape it.

that there was no sign in English telling you so.

I go there for convenience, but they certainly believe they can attract the custom of the El Salvadorean population in the neighborhood by advertising their national origin and language skills. When they're closed or too busy, I go a bit farther to the Ethiopian-owned place. I know that one cause it says 'Ethiopia Market' And they obviously believe they can attract custom from the local Ethiopian population. I still don't get why this is not racist but the American gardner is. please tell me.

You don't need to be El Salvadorean or Ethiopian to sell beer and cigarettes, it adds no advantage. Ergo, it is baseless advertising concerning national origin. You called that racism, right?

or Spanish signs. And it is only racism if you DISTINGUISH between races on the basis of national origin.

but it doesn't change the fact that this store advertises itself based on nationla origin and language ability, in an effort to attract the custom of people who are more comfortable with that. Just like the garderner. So why is one racist, and the other isn't? you still have not answered that point.

The American part is irrelevant.

But there are probably elderly people who have had experiences with landscape workers who could not understand the language and carry out instructions properly.

Some older people may not be able to understand a heavy foreign accent.

So, marketing your ability to speak the language well is not really offensive to me. It is a selling point. But the "American" part has an ugly overtone, but I'm not PC enough to make a scene about such minor things when there are much worse injustices going on all around us...

If he'd said "I'm WHITE and I speak English" I'd have no reservation in agreeing that it was racist. Clearly, he's trying to appeal to those who find it uncomfortable to deal with service personnel who don't speak the language well. There are many fields in which lack of English fluency is a very bad thing, but I don't know that lawn care is one of them.

There are many fields in which lack of English fluency is a very bad thing, but I don't know that lawn care is one of them.

We bought a house 2 years ago. One acre, totally wooded lot, no landscaping to speak of, and about a 10-20' wide ring of grass @ the front and back. Period. We've put a lotta blood, sweat and tears (all literally) into what we've managed to accomplish so far, so maybe I'm a little hypersensitive to the importance of Sticking To The Plan®. I'm *only* addressing what I believe to be legitimate communication issues, F'rinstance, having a sidewalk laid in the wrong place can be a bad thing, and the cost associated with redoing it can elevate it to Very Bad status pretty quickly. Or having the wrong shrubs / plants / trees planted in a certain spot.

Whether it's yardwork or stock trades or at a Wendy's drive-thru, as a customer (read: the one who's paying) I feel more comfortable - and generally have more success - when dealing with someone who understands what I want from them. I'm certainly willing to make my best effort to communicate effectively to... hell, everyone, and expect the same in return.

The customers are not making the distinction, he is. He is saying that he is not Hispanic, therefore hire him. That is racism, cut and dry.

Seriously~

You and some others see racism. I and some others don't.

He is saying that he can comprehend the customers' instructions, therefore hire him. That is customer service, cut and dried.