Making abortion illegal will not make it go away. It will just make women

die. It was illegal when I was in college and it still happened. Those with money and connections could make it happen fairly easily. Others without those resources took their chances. Many died or were made sterile. The bushies' campaign against women will not work. It might make it harder for women to have the control they want over their own lives but it will never stop the individual woman's drive to control her own destiny without government intervention.

Is that the purpose of making something illegal?

In the case of abortion, I'm not entirely sure it pays to be "honest."

Edit: Honest doesn't seem like a good word. Anyone have a better one?

women or just try to control them? Or maybe both.

right to choose? In order to punish women for not reproducing, even when they do not want to?

Control of women in general, more specifically their sexuality.

The people pushing for an abortion ban really do not care what would happen to women who sought illegal abortions, or what would happen to the extra children who would be born into less than desirable circumstances.

I'm not pulling that out of my ass. The last time I got into an abortion discussion with fundies they all but said exactly that. Their attitude is that a woman has a choice not to have sex, and once she's done that and gotten pregnant she should have to carry it to full term.

It all sounds suspiciously like the Biblical Eve's punishment for eating from the tree of knowledge. That's what freaks me out about the fundies - They want to make their interpretation of Christian mythology the basis for our laws. If that's not establishment of a state religion I don't know what you'd call it.

"IF ABORTIONS ARE OUTLAWED, ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE ABORTIONS" :crazy:

Not to make light of this important subject .. I think Clinton framed it perfectly: SAFE, LEGAL and rare.

credo say, Every child a WANTED child". Make it real by preventing unwanted pregnancies before they happen.

We need to revitalize the underground information/education network. There are still those women out there (many nurses and physician's assistants and trained lay persons) who know how to perform safe abortions.

we would have no laws at all. No law ever totally gets rid of an activity. There are plenty of reasonable arguments for the pro choice side, this isn't one of them.

argument for something being made legal. That having legal, effective, clean, clinical resources for women seeking abortion is not a reason to make a law allowing this practice?

isn't a valid argument. By that standard, making the activity disappear we would have no laws at all. No law has ever completely stamped out an activity.

It seems to me that not wishing to criminalize a perfectly simple, safe medical procedure for a large portion of our population should be one of the most logical arguments in the struggle for the equality of citizens of this nation!

How often have you ever considered going under the knife for an illegal operation?

Myself? I've been a law-abiding citizen in every way, my entire life; no drinkin' and no druggin', hell, I've never even gotten a traffic ticket, not even one parking ticket and I've put a lotta miles under my belt! But ya know what? When I got knocked-up as a youth, (and that's exactly what it was...one time only in my 18 years and BOOM, I was knocked for a loop!), it never even crossed my mind that it was wrong for me to seek out the only available channels and travel miles across this country, in order to get that illegal operation. Know why? I did what I knew I had to do, in order to save MY own life!

To this day, nobody, and I mean nobody, can ever convince me that what I did way back then was even vaguely immoral, murderous, or wrong!

My sole comment was to the sole argument in the OP. The sole argument there was that if you make abortion illegal it won't go away. You are presenting a completely different argument.

The argument that abortion is harmless is very different from the argument that it won't go away. The first can't be applied to murder while the second can, to name one difference.

for a procedure that is not the government's business, in any way, is indeed one of the best arguments to throw in the faces of those who wish to stick their noses where they do not belong!

For instance, what do they propose be done with the woman who doesn't wish to go thru childbirth? Will she be sent to prison for the duration of her pregnancy, if she's been caught "attempting" an abortion? Do they suggest a person be placed under 24 hr guard, assuring that the stray comb, toothbrush, or coat-hanger doesn't find it's way up her vagina. And once she's been strapped into the stirrups, will her parental rights automatically be denied at the forced birth of her child? Say this hardened criminal makes parole, will "no sex" be a condition of her probation? The rights violations are endless under such ridiculous conditions and unless they also intend to totally do away with our Constitution, the back-log and tie-ups in courts all over the country would probably be astronomical, not to mention our already overflowing prisons.

Turning ordinary, good women into criminals for merely determining what is best for their own lives and their own bodies is subjugation, pure and simple!

I will admit it is a sort of related issue, but it is still different. Your argument still assumes no victims of abortion which some would argue.

Ever actually discussed this issue with the average right-winger or worse, a common, everyday fundamentalist?

You directly have to argue on only what is real. Their attempts to introduce non-scientific definitions of viability, absurdly superstitious notions on "moments of conception" and souls of the unborn is their method of redefining that which is the perfectly natural function of every healthy woman's body. Determining that a woman's uterus is somehow some spiritual vessel of an unknown miraculous sacrament, separate from the rest of her body, allows them to define a woman's status in society only by her worth as a "breeder" and denies and demeans the equality due to every human being, by placing that distinction on an organ of reproduction commonly found in every female animal.

Citing my uterus and its functions as "special" or distinct from the rest of the whole of me is an invasion of my basic human right of personal liberty, as is declaring any blastocyst developed by said uterus to be a "victim" of its creator. I don't accept supernatural purposes as a way to cloud a perfectly natural biological function!

to fly to a foreign country to get a legal abortion there. Poor women will be at the mercy of illegal abortionists. We can't let this happen. It's time for a new feminist movement in this country.

Also, there is the do-it-yourself miscarriage, which many women attempted at home with a variety of abortion herbs and chemicals often at a big risk to themselves.

for a minute they won't use it if they have to.

Nope, it pretty much puts more of a burden on the poor and the middle class.

But, that's what they like.

it will hurt the poor more than the rich, but I really doubt that is how they are thinking about it. Many conservative policies have some form of kick in the gut to the poor, but to them, being poor is your own fault, just like getting an unwanted pregnancy. It's your fault that you are poor, your fault that you are pregnant, and your fault that you are poor and pregnant. To get the conservatives to listen, we need a more effective message than just charging that pro-lifers are anti-poor (racist, etc.).

I don't want my privacy or my rights to my body to be "safe, rare and legal" as though I am not entitled to my own body and my own decisions.

of D&Cs that were so obviously abortions done by "friendly" Drs. for women that needed and wanted help and had the clout to get it. (This was the 60's and anything resembling abortion was illegal.) Why can't we just stop the power mongering and hypocrisy and allow women to have the power to control their own bodies.

It's as tho just because we have a uterus, that alone makes us not quite capable of maintaining reasonable control over our own lives, like we're not competent to "keep it together" without a bunch of tidy laws telling us how to behave properly. I grit my teeth and gag whenever I hear another woman spewing that "rare" crap!

Abortion is not something shameful that should be rare. Like ANY surgical procedure, not needing it is best, but having it available wen needed is essential.

That there is something 'wrong' with having an abortion is implied in the slogan, "Keep abortion safe, legal and rare." Nobody is for heart disease, but I've never heard a coronary health campaign use the slogan, "Keep by-passes safe, legal and rare" despite by-passes being by a magnitude the far more risky surgery.

I was thinking it might be used for something else, something more nefarious. I believe that it is a simple fact that republicans tend to use the protestant work ethic (see Max Weber's work on this specific title) to justify their need for an over and underclass.

That being said: should a woman get pregnant at the incorrect time, then that aids in creating an underclass. Furthermore, it also forces women who have an abortion to risk her reproductive furture and/or health to have an abortion.

In the end, however, though I am progressive, I honestly feel that abortion should be safe, legal, but unthinkable. I remember the exact feelings when my daughter was handed to me, seconds after her birth. But. . .once again, once rights are taken away they are always eroded even further in the future. What's next? The day-after pill taken away from rape victims? That would be mind boggling.

That's already here. Right wing fundie nuts want to take the morning-after pill option removed from the counseling rape victims get in the hospital.

if abortion became illegal, all the agencies designed to help pregnant women and need (Birthright, etc.) will disappear.

There are so many other issues that seep into the abortion debate, and it's ridiculous to ignore them. You can't just ban it and magically "save babies." It doesn't work that way.

women to seek an abortion as much as it's about control over personal choice, both in terms of reproduction and the sexual act itself.

They want everyone to conform to their stated standards of sexual conduct. All the bleating and braying about "saving babies" is a smokescreen, their arguments are invariably circular.

"We don't want people having non-marital sex because that results in babies being killed."

:freak:

means that birth control, including the morning after pill be available to all who want/need it. Other ways to make abortion rare include provinding the correct information to teens and others who need it about sex and the prevention of pregancy. Those who would outlaw abortion also want to prevent people from getting birth control, morning after pills and information about their own reproductive systems. They are only about control and have no "culture of life".

abortion is wrong, then why are they so against providing the knowledge and help to prevent pregnancy?

Wrongies talk about 'abortion,' is that they mean everything - including birth control pills and condoms and the Morning After Pill.

I can't tell you how many articles I have read on Religious Reich websites that describe 'preventing implantation' or engaging in 'deliberate childlessness' as 'abortion.'

Beware when you have a discussion with your rightwing friends. Prior to the beginning of the discussion, ask them exactly what they want to see prohibited. The scope of the prohibition will astound you. I guarantee it.

This is about control over anyone other than the richest 1%.

They are relentless and shameless (the Religious Wrong).

the evils of alcoholism, general drunkenness, broken homes, battered wives, crime, delinquency....didn't it?

I don't mind. Any law that does not take my rights into consideration is a law I don't have to follow anyway.

My social contract with government demands my consent and I do not consent to any government that attempts to control women.


It's really that simple.

won't stop girls from having sex either. They think that making abortion illegal and taking away birth control will stop girls form having sex, well it won't.

All the fundies that I have discussed this completely believe that if a woman has an illegal abortion and dies or becomes sterile because of it, she has gotten what she deserves.

They also don't care if a woman denied an abortion dies giving birth and orphans her three other children.

Real family values, I tell 'ya.

have a lot of money to invest in lobbying for women's reproductive rights. I contribute when I can.

I am certain that it will be needed.

It worked so well during prohibition.:sarcasm:

You're right. They just want to claim victory and claim they saved these lives when they're really not helping anybody in a lot of cases. Don't forget about babies who are dumped in a toliet or dumpster because they can't keep them since they're young and afraid of their parents and what they'll do. This is pure nonsense of them tryig to do this. Instead why don't they elect someone they know who will make a good economy? I know it doesn't work for every single case but accoring to plannedparenthood.com the number two reason why women have abortions is because of income. These people are selfish and care NOTHING about these women/girls. Only their sick and greedy selves and they need to wake up.

will only drive it underground. The women with money and connects will still have abortions, but they will have access to better care and safer abortions. Women who are poor either won't have abortions, bringing more children into an impoverished situation or they will have an abortion that could possibly lead to their death or worse.

This country has plenty of proof that just because it's illegal doesn't mean it will stop. When liquor was banned, speak-easies and illegal liquor sales sprung up everywhere. Organized crime had a field day.

The women of this country have known what it is to have access to safe and legal abortions. Making abortions illegal will not stop them, but as has already been stated will lead to more women dying.

These Rapture Rightists wing-nuts want nothing less than the total control of women's personal lives, but especially their sex lives...abortions, birth control...everything.