Suppose there was no Iraqi war...

Let's take a step back in time.

9/11 happened.

Afghanistan war happened.

But the Iraqi war didn't

Would you still be as pissed off at moron*?

Even with all the moves to give corporations more rights and less responsibilities than individual citizens?

Even with all the outsourcing being allowed?

Even with lip service given to stopping illegal immigrations while employers of illegals get winks and nods?

Even with the loss of rights supposedly to make the Homeland Secure yet no $$ to inspect more than 5-15% of the cargo containers coming into US ports?

Even with all the talk about protecting citizens and cutting programs and $ resulting in a loss of people who actually do the protecting?

Even with all the leeway given to Evangelicals to stomp on separation of church & state and push their agenda in public schools?

Even with the secret energy policy written by energy companies?

Even with the manufactured energy crisis in California and the fact that bush* did nothing, even AFTER it was shown the energy companies manufactured the 'crisis' to get out of delivering the energy utilities had contracts for and then had to buy expensive power on the spot market?

Even after all the piss poor appointments?

Even after Jimmy-Jeff?

Even after the tacit approval of the smear against Kerry, who served honorably and with distinction in contrast to bush*s record of AWOL?

Gads, I could fill a book with reasons to be pissed enough to post on DU to help get more people to sit up, take notice of how much America has lost and how hard we need to fight to save it, even without the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

And he would have gone down as a one term president as well.

The guy would have screwed up big time, but by raging war and staging terra he tipped the balance.

I think that if it hadn't been for 911 I wouldn't have liked Bush, but it would be something which sometimes came up in discussions and being politically involved wouldn't have been the plan.

Upto 911 Bush was exactly that. A topic which came up and then you dissed him hard and you would say that he was an asshole etc.

I lived with him as my governor for long enough; knew from the beginning what to expect.

he was prez. LOL

think this thing with Iraq is what angers me the most.The deficit would not be as bad unless he invaded another country instead. He just isn't qualified to be president, thats what pisses me off most.

For that alone, he has my everlasting disdain. That goes against every ethic of morality and fair play that I possess and is completely against what America is supposed to stand for. He revealed his true character then. And it renders the would he/wouldn't he question of Iraq moot. The PNAC has been planning this since the mid-90s. Stealing the election set those plans in motion. Iraq was a given from the get-go.

On whether or not they would have actually exerted a real effort to go in and capture Bin Laden. I thought that trying to bring that guy to justice, that was the whole rationale for the Afghan War.

are horrific in their own right (oil dependency, outsourcing to places with no regulations, global warming, social security, lack of ehalth care, destruction of the education system, etc etc)

Taking the Iraq war out of the picture does not suddenly make him a progressive.

as much, wouldn't be as full of rage, simply because the bodycount of US and Afghanis is so much less than Iraq (so far; it's getting worse now) and geeez that's bloody awful of me to think that way.

I don't support the war in Afghanistan either. What happened on that day was a criminal act and should have been dealt with accordingly.

I don't support what's happening at Gitmo...and it would still be happening even if the illegal invasion of Iraq had not taken place. I don't support INS detention camps filled with people who have done nothing wrong, and who are detained without charge or counsel.

Selection 2000 isn't exactly something I've ever going to get over. The Patriot Act would still be a reality. His policies would not have changed.

Yeah...minus Iraq, there's still a ton of stuff to be pissed about.

but the war against Iraq is pretty close to the top for me. It was the tipping point, the point at which I became so disgusted with the Republican Party, I had to leave.

still would not like his policies and the religious right working its way into the governing of our country and the way the neo-cons have taken over the media and are destroying our free press and stealing the elections and basically turning our country into a corporation and a whole bunch of other crap. But I would loathe his administration less if he had not pushed us into attacking another country with no provocation and murdering upwards to 100K people including 1600 american service personnel.

and that in a nation which has been proven to have had no connection to 9/11. While his buddy Osama still runs free.