How would you solve the problem of creeping theocracy?

Read these statements and decide whether you agree or disagree with each:

• We have a serious national problem that could be characterised as 'creeping theocracy' (or pseudo-theocracy, really)


• There is no evidence that the pro-theocracy forces will voluntarily back off


• If we only defend, not attack, then we must win 100% of the contests. Even if they only win 1 time in 1000 (partisan judges, eroding church/state wall, etc) and we fight them off the other 999, we will eventually lose secularism itself

If you do agree with each one, then do you believe the problem can be solved?

If you do believe it can be solved, how would you solve it?

would be a good method

Yeah I guess that would in theory. Kind of brutal though, don't you think?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

A taste of their own medicine should do it. Slap them back with their own words.

They have an amazing threshold for ignorance.
They don't see their own transgressions as being anything like the transgressions of those they despise.

They are all about intolerance of othersand acceptance of themselves.

Just look at Neil Horsley.

....transgressions of those they despise."

Apparently, neither do some on "our side".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3701182

"Should religious displays be banned?"

I believe the Original Poster was adequately educated by that thread. Unless he/she is outright ignorant... which is actually rare around here.

of religious symbols and acts, as you proposed on your other memorable thread.

This is what brought out the Age of Enlightenment around the time of the American Revolution. If the Renaissance can emerge from the darkness of the Middle Ages, then it is very possible. Education is the answer. It is the ultimate answer.

,...on the fringe of our society. Thought and reason dictates treating them as such. They may be emboldened by an extremist leadership; but, they will perish in clinging unto anything resembling an enemy to democracy because NO ONE gives that ideal of democracy up without resistence.

They think they've got power in the bag. So do the neoCONS.

What's that ole' sayin,...the gods make over-confident those who must fall,...or something along those lines.

This world is a different place. Knowledge and information is accessible. In spite of those who seek global dominance and control; in spite of their willingness to deceive and betray, manipulate and use their own people; they simply cannot succeed. Not in this world,...not at this time.

These are the babes that are spoken of in the Bible, not ready for solid food. They are Immature and demanding that their needs be met at the expense of the rest of us. Resist not evil because that is in essence what this is. Ignore them they are the vicious, control happy minority. Most of our elected don't have their heads that far up their own behinds. Look at the Ohio elected. They aren't swallowing and neither are the majority of Americans.

which suggested banning people from showing any public display of religion. Your idea of theocracy, therefore, is probably quite different from mine.

We need to remind them that although they may really think they are being victimized or persecuted here in the U.S.; they are not.

They aren't prohibited from or limited in adhering to their own personal religious beliefs.

They don't have to register their religious affiliation with the state.

They don't have to hide in someone's basement to worship.

We don't put them in prison based solely on their religious beliefs.

And when you stop and think about the above, their continual "we're victims" posturing is really something of a slap in the face to those people in other countries who actually are persecuted and victimized for their religious beliefs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3701182

The OP is all about "prohibiting from or limiting" personal religious beliefs.

near that far.

are Christians who are able to show how the "theocrats" are like the pharisees. Because that is something they can understand.

saving the Senate from self-castration.

to the Democrats saving the Senate from the Republicans.

There are liberal Christians (Democrats) - the people I was referring to - such as the Baptist preacher who held a counter-rally in Louisville to Justice Sunday.

fully fund and prioritize public education (if the RW had not systematically compromised public education, there would be far less fundyism and superstition.

How does one eliminate mental illness and superstition from a large population?

The superstitious mindset that blames 'fags' for 9/11 will be gone in the next century or so.

There is an unconscious understanding that humanity is about to evolve and shed itself of irrational concepts.
The 'religious' movement is making one final attempt to put us back in the dark ages.

They have no understanding that their beliefs and actions are borne out of fear, hatered, and general insecurity.
They cannot be made to understand that they play right into the hands of the darkness the claim they are fighting.

If I were The Lightbringer, I would write a wise and wonderful book. At the end of the book there would be an instruction manual on how to destroy the world. And in order to avoid death and 'be taken up in the air', my faithful minions would go about engineering that end. Because their minds are so shallow, I would be in control of their unconscious actions, they would never admit to themsleves that they were doing my work because of their fear... of being wrong, of being powerless, of death itself.

This is the last gasp of fear and hatred before we flush it away for good... and there's a good chance they will succeed.

or just "superstitious"
I find someone claiming publicly that I'm either to be "offensive" but I guess that doesn't matter. Only the non-religious can rightfully claim how "offensive" they take public displays of religion (see Maireads previous thread and the thread about the little girl singing a song - HORROR OF HORRORS - about God at a public school talent show).

A few billion muslims, a few billion buddhists, a few billion christians - yeah I guess 99% of the world are mentally ill or superstitious just because they believe in a higher power. That leaves 53 of you really smart people left here on earth.

I did not.

I know many real Christians... who actually try to emulate Christ.

So let me ask you this;

Do you believe that you will be 'Raptured'?
Do you believe that we are in the 'End Times'?
Do you believe in the 'Great Tribulation'?

I do believe in the Divine - but only because I have questioned my faith.

Answer the above questions, or beg out of this, because I was only referring to those who are unwittingly bringing about the 'End of the World'... and if you are one of them, you will lose this debate.

your only talking about the select minority, the fundies. However, the OP was probably not thinking only about fundies, as a few minutes before he/she had posted advocating a ban on public displays of religion, whether its fundies, 'real' christians, buddhists, jews or muslims. There's that little constitution thing, though, that gets into that Trotskyite thinking.

I thank you, though, for clarifying. Since there was inference that Christians are mentally ill, and you have clarified, I hope we can now begin a more cordial discussion.

Having said that, I believe that Christ is coming again, but frankly, I don't care when. I'm kind of selfish and would like to live a full life, see my children grow up, play with grandchildren, see the Sooners win a few more national championships, see Tiger win his 20th major, and play a LOT more golf. If He doesn't come for another 10,000 years or 2 million years, thats fine with me, its his time plan, not anyone elses. As far as your three questions, I personally believe that Revelations is much too complicated, mysterious, and vague for anyone to comprehend, and I get a little put off when someone tries to explain their interpretation. As far as I care, Christ said his second coming will be like a thief in the night, which to me means 1) we have no control over it (why the heck do the fundies believe they can manipulate God into bringing back a second coming a second before He is ready - how arrogant and stupid) and 2) anyone who tries to figure it out is wasting a lot of effort, thought, and energy that Christ would like them to use in much greater purposes.

I too believe that 'Christ' will return in one fashion or another, but that the rabid fundamentalists will not recognize it and probably kill him.

(Hell - it could have been David Koresh after all...)

Believe me or no... I spent nearly two years as a 'Born-Again Christian', which is very important to the methods by which I have developed my perspective.

I read my Bible every day. I quoted verse to my friends... they hated that (especially because it usually turned out I was right....)
I was rather fond of proverbs, I hammered myself with the teachings of Christ and really tried to be that way... and I was. I read John's Revelation over and over, all the while looking for the things 'of the world' that pointed to His return. And with the help of Hal Lindsey - I began to see those things.

But not only did I begin to see 'The Beast' forming in the world, I yearned for it... I wanted it all to be true...
That way I was assured that I had a 'special' destiny, I was assured that I would be right, that I would be magically saved.

I believed I would be better off than everyone else who was not saved.

-and that made me feel secure.

For I knew that no matter what life dealt me - I was safe and secure. I also knew that, so long as the Great Tribulation happened in my lifetime, I would not have to suffer the pain and fear of death.

After a lot of introspection I realized that the way I felt, what I believed, was just another face of arrogance... I was better than others because I was saved and I felt bad for those who were not saved because they were not like me.

That's when I realized that, for most people, being 'Born Again' was part of a belief system that worked on and fed off of our fears... it is no wonder that it took on such a vast following.

I was young, idealistic, and I believed that Christ's teachings could save the world... and they could... if the so-called 'Christians' would follow them.

But from the 'Christian' leadership I heard much that did not mesh with what Christ taught. It made no sense to me that in order to be saved, humanity would have to pay with billions of innocent lives. That didn't sound very 'Christian' to me... in fact, it sounded like the same sorts of things Hitler was shooting for.

"To save the Christian Race, we must purify the world, we must save the unbelievers or GOD will cast them into the lake of fire." - and those bastards will have deserved it. Right?

My belief?
If the Human race can survive this period of adolescence, it will attain divinity on it's own... and be welcomed by God and all else that is divine into the pantheon of eternity.

-But we have to survive these nutcases who want everyone to die so they can 'be taken up in the middle of the air' "Like a thief in the night".

Their mortal and clouded will is more powerful than you might think, and I must state again;

"If I were he who would deceive the world, I would write a book. My book would be filled with such grand stories, sublime wisdom, and magnificent truth that the world would take it up as a torch to lead others on the path that I had wrought. And at the end of my story would be the death of the world... and they would follow my story perfectly.

While I laughed, my echoes ringing in the deep, dark, and breathlessly silent void... they would all join me there in oblivion. For when they have anihilated themselves, their children, and all hope for the future of their race... there would be nothing left but rock to sing of their passing... and radioactive rock at that."

Sorry, but I think Satan WANTS Armageddon... and with the followers he's recruited, he's well on his way to getting it.

-God Bless.

BTW- did you know that John wrote his Revelation after a long trip through India? Re-read Revelations sometime and study the imagery - there will be left little doubt.

I don't know how mentally ill.

But don't worry. If you work hard in the camps, you'll be released to a group home of some sort before too many years. Maybe someday, you can be part of society.

:sarcasm:

we're talking about fundy theocrats, not about all people who believe in a deity or a "higher power."

The OP is talking about all Christians.

Which is irrelevant to my post in this thread

As it happens, I wish that all public expression of religion was regulated. I find religious symbology offensive. But that has nothing to do with this thread.

it lays out the agenda behind the OP's questions.

I, me--leftofthedial--think anyone who is trying to overthrow our republic and replace it with a theocracy is a traitor. The minions who are participating in this movement are criminals and need to be dealt with.

I also think that religious fundamentalism is a kind of mental illness, one that we perversely tolerate because it is "religious."

practice of religion is setting up their own theocracy. Guess what, thats EXACTLY what theocracies do! They CONTROL people's most personal beliefs and they squash them! That's what you and the OP are proposing. You might think its something new and improved, but the need to control people's lives has been around forever. This theocracy, you want, is the same as the one you despise.

"Meet the new boss...same as the old boss" - The Who

"We've met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly

we are controlling the conditions under which religious people can expose their views on others, without the others' consent.

I have said nothing indicating that people should not be allowed to practice their religion.

You are either being disingenuous or malicious.

Constitutional caselaw. Might I suggest findlaw.com as a start. Start out with the defintion of the practice of religion as defined by 200 years of caselaw.

Frankly, you're welcome to be a Xian or anything else, and I wouldn't limit your public displays of affection for your own version of the Deity.

But we have a creeping cancer in this country. Much of organized religion has become a social problem, like AIDS or drug abuse. Even old line religions like the Catholic Church have made common cause with the Talibornagains over the marriage amendment.

Freedom of religion is a tricky thing. Would you attack the 9/11 terrorists for their faith?

The denominations that have chosen to set themselves against everything this country stands for need to be treated for what they are: enemies of this Republic.

When the Talibornagain begin to act on their "principles", they are different from the Islamic militants only in degree, not in kind.

Frankly, if your particular denomination or independent church makes common cause with the religious right, then you have two choices. Try to change it from within, or get the hell out.

I would not try to eradicate religion. You can't, any more than you can eradicate the Ku Klux Klan. You can, however, marginalize it so that the vast majority of people pinch their noses and go "ewwww" at the thought. Even some sympathizers would not be seen in public breaking bread with David Duke.

The Talibornagains must be reduced to the same ridiculous margin of society. Because it involves a key tenet of people's world view, it's going to be some ugly. But treating cancer is often ugly.

You can pretend your church or denomination doesn't have cancer. But the only thing that goes away if you ignore it is a sore tooth.

I would "attack" someone over how they interpret that faith, be it religion or faithlessness. How to determine that distinction is up to me personally. It is not a judgment and power that I would want government to have.

A few barnyard animals, transvestites, some whips and chains, and full public disclosure should solve the problem.

They seem to be particular fond of mules.

theocracy. What I do know , is that it has succeeded in turning me into a person who feels almost physically ill when I see their pronouncements, as I feel they are totally dishonest. I used to be tolerant about religions. Now I am no longer tolerant, as it is being shoved at us constantly, event to the extent of them claiming to be "discriminated against".I wish I never had to see the word christian again. It is a dirty word to me now.They have created this climate of hate and I hope it turns on them someday. In my mind now, christian= hate and control of the worst sort.And please, no "christians" preaching at me.Believe whatever you want to, but don't try to convince me of your belief or that it is the "right" way. That is really intolerance.

(just wanted to let you know that)

You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free. I used to advocate airdropping Playboy magazines in repressive middle eastern countries, but I'm not sure about that now.

that I believe this sort of thing can only go so far before it rebounds. We Americans are, as a general rule, a moderate bunch of folks with a small percentage of weirdos hanging out on the fringes. Extremists can grasp the reins for a while, but, without OBVIOUS police-state tactics, even they can only go so far.

I too fear what I'm seeing. As an demi-agnostic pantheist, the idea of a religious regime gives me the serious willies. I sometimes call myself a heretic in jest. They'd mean it. And wouldn't find it nearly as funny as I do.

But people with moderate views are the balance point...I think they're statistically average...prone to something approaching apathy about the political scene, but also capable of sudden action if roused from their slumber. The less it affects them, the less they care.

A serious religious crusade in this country--one that might rouse the sleepers--would have to contend with the fact that nearly countless millions of the sleeping populace might be gay, have gay friends or relatives, enjoy pornography, use drugs or have friends that do, prefer casual sex, believe they should be able to choose abortion if they choose, or allow others that choice, don't believe in God, or the Christian God, believe in a total different image of God, fought in what they've come to think of as an unjust war, or know someone that did, or any combination of the above.

Even a considerable percentage of their supporters aren't aware of the lengths they'll go to in order to further their religious agenda.

This is where any comparison to Nazi Germany falls flat. We are not Germany--a nation of people who never had a strong Democratic tradition. We are the ultimate melting pot of cultures and viewpoints, far more global than Rome, for example, ever hoped to be. We may not be a perfect democracy, or much of one at all right now, but the masses DO expect a voice, and will shout very loudly if the situation warrants it. Witness the Viet Nam war protests. They eventually shook the foundations of our government.

There's now precedence. We KNOW we can do it if we have to.

It could get nasty, but people aren't going to go for it here. The voices that are objecting are getting louder and louder, and not even the deepest sleeper will be able to ignore them much longer.

aggressive puritanism at work. Kicked out of their home country for their radical, unbending POV, they were the first settlers in the new world.
Can you say "witch hunt"?

If you accept jesus in to your heart, right now, you'll not be
concerned with such trivial pursuits. Then you'll know THE truth.

..that there is a criminal gang in charge of the ranch; and like on
orwell's animal farm, the rules are painted on the side of the barn.

;-)

and start speaking out...

The Church is very divided... the hierarchy and the conservatives vs. the parish priests and the faithful...

"When you absolutely, positively got to kill every motherf@cker in the room, accept no substitutes."

-Samuel L. Jackson, "Jackie Brown", 1997

And whenever possible, amuse.

The systemic problem comes from the centrallization of so many people
in such a large federal body... and the solution is already in the
constitution, "states rights".

So, to solve it, have the federal go competely bankrupt, collapse and
disappear leaving states to make their own decisions. WIthout the
federal, there will be no federal media, and to cross state borders
will become "national" borders, that religious multinational-parties
will not be welcome in some states.

The constitution has reached the end of its usefulness, and has become
"the" problem. Let states go it themselves and trust that some states
will elect to separate church and state.

The beast was of course the Federal Government, particularly the social programs of the New Deal and the Great Society. So what you are suggesting is actually a republican strategy...where would you have the Democrats try to go?

I strongly disagree with dissolving the US Constitution in favor of state governments. Perhaps this is because of my regional background. But I think I also have a more rational basis for this belief.

States' rights could actually lead to the spreading of the power of the religious right because the theocon faction varies in popularity across states and within national regions. Reducing the protections of the Bill of Rights (a part of the Constitution) ensured by the Federal courts, would give free rein to the theocons to operate without checks in some states and possibly entire regions (particularly the south, great plains and mountain west).

Were there a constitution in power, i might feel different, but there
is nothing but a corporate semblance to something that once really was
a step forward in democracy.

The only way to check the republcans is to tank the dollar and destroy
the economic power on which the whole house of cards rests (outside
of military means). It has come to this. I too, believe that there
was once a great good in the federal potential... but i've been proven
wrong.

Women could realistically lose their right to an abortion in the US
in the next few years... and so much evil with the federal drugs war,
the federal military empire and the dark evil of congress.... so what
can be done? Perhaps akido, and indeed, some things will be lost in
such a move, but we'll gain back our integrity, our ability to govern
ourselves... and we can always move to a state where the laws are more
to our suit. In this regard, let them keep thier slave states, as they
are uncompetetive and will die in a competetive economy... but to do
this involves cutting inter-state welfare.

Wee de de de de ee ee ee we um umma way
A wee ma way / awee ma way / awee ma way / awee ma way

Buy a rooster

There are some that are speaking out against the rise of Christian fascism but we need to add more that will raise enough questions to put a seed of doubt in the minds of those who are blindly following the theocrats because they are brainwashed into thinking that it is God's will.