I need help from a Free Thinking Christian who knows the Bible

I don't want to post this in the Religion area because I need help right away and don't want to wait for three days for an answer. A Fundamentalist who is for the War and loves Bush sent me this. What the hell does all this mean? What is with all the talk about "not bringing peace but a sword???" This is some scary stuff on first appearance! How can I answer this guy back? I have always been a defender of the teachings of Jesus because thy always seemed so liberal and loving but some of this stuff I really don't care for at least at first glance. Am I missing something here? Can this possibly have a positive message? Is he right to use this to justify War? (Obviousely that would never be right) What does this mean? Is their a positive message he is missing that I can answer him back with?


Mathew 10:25-27; 34-36 "It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household! So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs."

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man's enemies will be the members of his own household

It doesn't encourage war or anything like that. He regrets that his teachings are going to divide families because of religious differences. However, he basically says that you have to choose him over your family.

Just wanted to point out that he has no understanding of the Second Law of thermodynamics. Creationists have screwed him up on how entropy works, which is extremely complicated. Anyway, here is what he wrote. What do you think about what he said?



"The answer to these questions is quite simple. You think that George Bush is evil and you are not alone. (that is why I chose it) The Pharisees thought Christ was evil as well. --Somebody's wrong!--

You seek to create order in this world but you forget that it is in the process of being destroyed (Second Law of thermodynamics ). There is a reason that this is in the Bible....It is what Jesus said! It does give Christianity a bad name in your mind because you do not understand what love is. Would I be loving if I did not scold my own son if he was wrong? Certainly he would think it cruel to impose my will on him. However, he is only 3 yrs old and does not forsee the consequences of many actions. I correct him because I love him.

Love is honesty, and for many....'The truth hurts'. If one bases his definition of love on 'feelings' he will miss reality. Jesus said many things like this to separate the wheat from the chaff. The wise virgins from the foolish. He forces us to make a decision on the veracity of his teaching and accept him as God, or deny him. The recent controversy about the new Star Wars movie is a perfect example.

Luke 11;23 (the words of Christ) He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters. (sound familliar?)"


End of his letter. Well he writes more but it's not Biblical quotes.


Here is how I was going to answer him but I don't have enough understanding of Biblical texts.

First of all, you said: "It doesn't matter whether you think it is true..just as it doesn't matter if you think that 1+1=2. It does, and is. I don't proclaim it to be true and I have no effect on whether you see it as true. You and I do not change reality. In fact, we exist... because of reality."

We agree here but where we differ is on HOW we determine that 1 + 1 = 2. I don't remember ever seeing 1 + 1 = 2 in the Bible or on the Ten Commandments. Have you???? (This is very important) So, if 1+ 1 = 2 was NOT revealed to us by God then HOW do we know 1 + 1 =2 ?
Through the use of math a person can reason out a problem and come to the correct answer. Somehow mankind has used reason to find mathematical truths. These mathematical truths were not revealed to mankind through religious books or handed down on tablets to Moses. A very ordinary person used his/her ability to reason and discovered the answer to a problem on his/her own. These mathematical truths are abstractly woven into the framework of the universe and can be extracted by reason and trial and error. Since mathematical truths can be extracted from the universe through reason then why cant all other truths be extracted in the same or similar manor? Why not even moral truths?

Now, to suggest that you know what love is and the rest of us don't is really not cool. I could go off right now but that would get us no where. You don't know me at all and just like the other five billion people on earth I have a trillion complexities that you could never understand unless you were in my skin. I am sure you have a trillion complexities as well and I am sure you have a lot of love in your heart that you want to express. That's awesome but don't tell me I don't understand what love is. Forest Gump said it best, "I may be a simple man, but I know what Love is!" Ultimately however only God can make that judgment..... remember?

You said: "Would I be loving if I did not scold my own son if he was wrong?" No, but if you took the sword to him and chopped his head off, well that would not be loving.

Look, if you want to believe that stuff fine. That's what this country is all about. If it makes you happy and helps you live a productive life then awesome! But I am my own person, I have my own way of seeing things and you telling me I am on the outside looking in is not going to get you to change my mind. What you are telling me is exactly what the Taliban or the Fundamentalist Muslim religion tells their people only with different a religion. Answer me this:
Does the Taliban really demonstrate love? How can we evaluate the Taliban except through human reason? Fundamentalist Christians use intellectual anarchy to justify their own beliefs but they will not allow other religions to do the same. This is an immoral double standard. Buddhism makes no sense to Christians and they reject it as being untrue. But wait, we cannot evaluate Buddhism according to human reason. We have to accept it as true because it made sense to Buddha! Substitute any religion that you like. All religions become true.

Perhaps you better check out all the other Religions that claim to have the only truth. You may have latched onto the wrong one! I studied dozens of religions and philosophies before I started to decide what I believe and my beliefs are always evolving and changing. I looked at everything with an open mind. I deeply cherish my beliefs in the same way you deeply cherish yours. Can we just accept one another's beliefs and have peace? Isn't that the best way to have world peace? History shows that most wars were fought over Religion because one side could not accept the other sides way of thinking. That's why our country is set up the way it is. So ALL beliefs are on equal ground under the constitution.

Buy the way, you need to read up on the Second Law of thermodynamics because you over simplified it. It's extremely complex. You are talking to the son of a Chemistry Professor who worked at Los Alamos, Sandia and Lawrence Livermore National Labs doing research in Hot Atom Chemistry so I am fully aware of all the mistakes Creationists have made in understanding the Second Law. That's why it's not considered science because it's riddled with mistakes and does not survive the scientific method and Peer Reviewed scrutiny. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html

Also, who said Bush was Evil? I just think he is not a very good president and he is too quick to war and loose with his facts. The latest polls seem to indicate he is losing support in a big way. People are not to happy about the state of our country right now including many, many Christians. His support is under 50% and has been for a couple of months now.

Now as to your questions:

By what standard do you judge others? I don't I leave that to God.

If I may elaborate...What is the Plumb Line, with which man should judge himself hmmm? Did you not read my earlier answers? These are questions societies have to debate, use trial and error, scientific facts all guided by reason and intuition to zero in on an answer.

Why is greed wrong?

For me it's wrong because I would rather see those who were born unlucky helped out rather than see those who were born lucky hoard everything. It's just the nice thing to do and it makes me feel good to help people out. As Lincoln said "When i do good I feel good, when I do bad I feel bad. And that is my Religion." Based on my God given reason I think that's what God has decided is right and it helps society become a better place so we all win in the end. I would want others to help me if I was in a tough spot. It's common sense.

Why is it wrong to kill?

Well, their are lots of reasons. First of all society has to have some measure of order. Second of all why would anyone want to hurt someone? You will have to ask God for his/her particular reasons but I don't think God is big on people causing others harm. I know deep in my heart that it's not something I would ever, ever, ever want to do no matter what religion a person was.

Why is it wrong to lie?

Well, some lies are OK if they protect someone from pain. I think it's mostly wrong to lie because it hurts people and because if everyone went around lying then society would be chaos. It's quite clear that societies and all religions recognized that lying hurt people and lead to disorder and chaos.

By what measure do you declare that something is evil?

That is really not for me to judge but for God to juge. I can only come to the best decision I can and may not always be right.

Do you base it on how the question makes you feel?

Like I said, that is not a determination for me to make but for God. My feelings may get in the way of my ability to reason and every act is different with different motives, different psychological conundrums that might have lead to the evil act, was it premeditated, was it done in the heat of passion? All these things must be weighed by experts in psychology and other fields to determine how bad an act is. Sometimes they will get it wrong sometimes they will get it right. Only God knows how often we get it right or wrong. All we can do is our best based on the facts presented to us.

Do you arrive at the standard by consensus? I think society has to. It's called Democracy. Me personally? No, because as I said that is not a judgment for me to make. I can have an opinion but ultimately that is up to God to decide.

I really don't get what this person is trying to say. What does Star Wars have to do with anything? It seems to me like this individual is just trying to throw a bunch of stuff at you while not knowing what the hell they're talking about.

I read his letter and was totally confused.

confusing- "by thier fruit, you shall know them"- what is Mr. Bush's fruit?

A loving father who was omnipitent-(all knowing all seeing all powerful) wouldn't put a lighter in his 3yr old's sons hand and then say "you can play with ANYTHING in this house, but don't play with this lighter because if you do, you will GKDNKE- (translate- die) which meant NOTHING to Adam or Eve, because they had never seen or been instructed as to what 'death' was- it was gobbledeguck- A "loving father" doesn't need to SCOLD or PUNISH- but does need to explain, and show thier child what the dangers are, and that when he says 'don't do this' it is NOT because he wants to be 'mean' but because he loves him- hold his hand NEAR the woodstove, and say "this is very HOT, it could hurt you, so don't touch it" rather than saying 'don't touch that'-

'tough love' on a 3yr old?
Discipline doesn't mean punishment- the actual meaning of the word is to instruct or teach- a good teacher doesn't condemn thier student for not knowing something before it has been taught- and understood-

God is said in scripture to be LOVE-
1Cor. 13 says:

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Even when speaking as an 'adult' the scripture speaks of a 'future time' when we will see clearly, know fully- not something that is achieved even in 'Adulthood'- yet.

(edited to correct my mistake in the initial part of my post, i mis-read you- and add what MY view of Christlike love is)

Here is what he wrote:


Of course...Christ is warning his disciples that he (christ) was percieved as evil. This is because he did not shun from challenging the conventional wisdom. He upset the apple-cart. A lot of people had a good thing going in the present system and he paid no heed to their short-sided thinking. When he spoke to the proud, he was rude and disrespectful in their minds and certainly not 'loving'. But in 'reality' he was loving even them. When he called the hypocritical pharisees a Brood of vipers, he was telling the truth and trying to enlighten them to their true nature as the 'law' (ten commandments) is intended to do. He mocked them for their claim to righteousness by the law, as he exposed their hearts and ignored their deeds. In this sense he opened the Law for all to see.

Now if the 'perfectly lawful' and only (living non-hypocrite) messiah, is not allowed to live for saying such things, what should sombody like me expect when I attempt to follow in his footsteps. I have had some hot debates as a Christian, and often I am asked, "who are you to tell me"? Let me share a point from one of my papers :
The implication is that if we were perfect, then they would listen to us. History shows us something quite different, they would crucify us.



He is also telling his followers not to worry as this will all be evident. Furthermore there is a spiritual angle and intensity to telling the truth so forcefully and boldly. It is percived as evil by the force of it. He goes on to show the result of the inevitable conflict that will be brought by some rejecting the status quo. However the truth is what matters more than anything. Problems cannot be resolved by truth when the truth results in conflict. Therefore do not avoid conflict at the expense of the truth. He made it clear that He should be more important than blood family. (tough stuff no?)



If I might add to this an aside... Since Christ literally 'is' truth, as he said, "I am....the truth...", in my mind this becomes a fudamental principle that is most difficult even for the most seasoned warrior. Warrior of truth that is.



(If your minister friend is trying to discern my background tell him that I am a nondenominational Christian born of the spirit. I do not speak in tongues, but I see the kingdom on a good day, and run and hide like Elijah on a bad. I am not a scholar, but a humble blue collar priest. I am nothing without my God, but a warrior wielding fire when ordered. Tell him I know enough to get by, and ask daily for the hidden things promised and delivered to the true. And my name...consider your counsel carefully)

contradicted by Luke 9:49

John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.”

don't know what your friend meant when he added (sound familar) except that it is the exact opposite of what Jesus is recorded to have said 2 chapters before his 'not with me= against me')

you will see that he is warning his 12 desciples that as they go out and teach, there will be many who will be against them. But, in verse 23 Jesus says "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another...". He doesn't say take out a sword and kill them.

Remember, when Jesus was being arrested and Simon Peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of Malcus the High Priest's servant, Jesus said "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matthew 26:52). Note: Simon Peter and Malcus are named in John 18:10.

PS, I am a former Christian and now consider myself a Taoist. But when I was a teenager I wanted to be a Baptist Preacher, and I still remember my Bible pretty well.

in a nutshell.

entire context, this is precicely what is being said-

"Matthew 10:28-39

28 Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 And even the hairs of your head are all counted. 31 So do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 "Everyone therefore who acknowledges me before others, I also will acknowledge before my Father in heaven; 33 but whoever denies me before others, I also will deny before my Father in heaven.

34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and one's foes will be members of one's own household.

37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.'

literally, as a metal slice and dice.
And infominister is correct- he the scripture
means that a division will take place over the
truth, those who choose the laws of earth over heaven.
Clearly the the Bushbots have chosen the former with
clear disregard for what Jesus actually said.
BHN

I am going to say off the top of my head that this is taken out of context.

It is too late to read the previous verses tonight, but I will do that tomorrow and get back to you. If you have the time to do it, please do.

I am basing my answer on the fact that Freepers usually twist things out of context, but I'll let you know for sure.

Goodnight! :hi:

As in, "I'm being an asshole because God told me to. If you don't like it, well that just proves that you are that person that Jesus prophesied would oppose those of us who know the truth."

from established religious/monetary/theocracies to "the people". He scorned established religion, the bankers, and their practices and was scorned by them. He took his message and love to the common folk.

The Spirit is the Word of GOD. There may come a time when families are divided because of lack of belief or believing differently. And put GOD first, (do not put your children or husband or wife before GOD).
The fundamentalist "Christians" love to contort, distort, or take scriptures out of context to suit their own needs. But you'll know them by their fruits, Love, Peace, Joy, Goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Patience, and Self-Control. GOD is Love.

The whole armor of GOD is described in Ephesians 6:11-17, (also notice it says ..."feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace").

Safe to assume it's bullet proof. What are you talking about here? Ephesians 6:11-17

Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Therefore, take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day and, having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girded about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness,

and your feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of peace.

Above all, take the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God,

praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.
___________________________________________________________

Peace, Salaam, Shalom

http://s90924501.onlinehome.us/mp3/018-Peace-Salaam-Shalom.mp3

with 'christ'ian fundies- but MY take on this is exactly what is happening today-

From the begining of time it's been 'tit for tat'- Jesus' message his life and death was one of "kindness' in the face of attack-
The 'sword' is the division that will cut to the 'quick' when someone is willing to live the 'radical' life that Jesus asks-

Ask your fundie friend where in the bible Jesus is EVER violent, or furious- The answer is that it is never at 'sinners' (as defined by the 'religious right' of his time) But rather AT the 'religious right' those who 'feigned' righteousness, yet lived lives that satisfied and exahalted themselves- Those who prospered at the hands of the poor- of those who sought to 'be good' and had to pay outrageous prices for thier 'sacrifices' (when he overturned the tables outside the temple)-

He didn't curse the adulterous woman, he even showed that those who beat thier breasts and say "Thank God i'm not a sinner like others'- didn't understand, but the 'lowly man, who admitted his imperfectness, and claimed 'unworthiness' was the one who had 'gods' heart.

Ask why, when the soldiers came to arrest him, and Simon(Peter) cut off one of the soldiers ears Jesus rebuked Simon, restored the mans ear and said "those who live by the sword, die by the sword"-
He did NOT advocate returning violence for violence- He COULD have fought back- but did not- Now ask your fundie friend if Jesus is His/her Saviour, and if 'we' are to become more like HIM- then how can 'we' justify killing?????? War? the death penalty-

Stephen was stoned to death, when he could have run away, or fought back- Where in Jesus' words does he EVER advocate violence against another?

Mt 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Mt 23:2-3 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

1Tm 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Jn 8:31-32 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Mt 5:38-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

hope these help-

I should give you his e-mail address so you can set him straight. I have to debate with him with points based on reason etc. but I really don't want to tell him not to be a Christian. I am not into feeling like I have to convert someone to my beliefs or away from their own religion. I just want him to get a more positive message from the Bible. A more liberal message.

Jesus certainly didn't come here to create warfare! LOL This is what is so freaky about them, that someone has brainwashed them with the wrong message...the evil that perverts their thinking and corrupts Christs teachings will not prevail and this is my only hope in the end.

bring a sword. One of his flunkies probably stuck that line in the bible for him. BTW, what is Constantinople called today? ;-)

Why did Constantinople get the works?
It's nobody's business but the Turks!

BTW, I get your point. Sorry, I just love They Might Be Giants! :hi:

Bloodguilty Churches: Why Bush’s Agenda Is Immoral and an Abomination to God
By Katherine Yurica
http://www.yuricareport.com/Religion/TheBloodGuiltyChurches.html

Thesis of Bloodguilty Churches

George W. Bush, his administration, the Republican controlled congress as well as the Republican Party itself, and most of the churches in America (including evangelical, Southern Baptist, Pentecostal and Roman Catholic), stand indicted—not by men—not by this writer—but by the very Holy Scriptures the religious-right and Mr. Bush profess to uphold. Weighed against the Bible, the Bush actions are not only morally corrupt—they are unchristian and unbiblical to the core. In this essay, the Bush agenda is weighed on the scale of God’s standards and it is found wanting.

Contents of Bloodguilty Churches

In the Beginning
Invade Iraq or What's a Preemptive Strike?
Lies About the Threat of War
What Does the Bible Say About Preemptive Strikes?
The War Fairs
What Does the Bible Say About Profiting from War?
Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo
Does Mr. Bush Have the Moral High Ground?
Bush's Agenda for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid
What Does the Bible Say About How a Nation Must Treat the Poor and the Sick?
Mr. Bush's Immigration Plans
Deregulate Health and Safety and Environmental Laws
What Does the Bible Say About Rigging Devices?
Mr. Bush’s “Justice” Versus the Bible’s Justice
The Development of the Biblical Justice System
Be Careful Not to Commit Judicial Murders: The Texas Clemency Memos
Is Mr. Bush's Tort Reform Biblical?
The Bible's Criminal and Civil Code System
What Does the Bible Say About Abortions?
GOP Operatives as Slanderers and Hooligans, Scorner's and Ridiculers
What's Wrong With Today's Churches and 'Christians'?
Profile of the Man God Hates
End Notes

Bloodguilty Churches: Why Bush’s Agenda Is Immoral and an Abomination to God
By Katherine Yurica
http://www.yuricareport.com/Religion/TheBloodGuiltyChurches.html

and it astounds me. We had no right,reason, or moral basis to go into Iraq but we did so and his biggest supporters call themselves Christians? Have they never heard of the Golden Rule?

The Golden Rule is those who have the gold make the rules. GOP lives by that rule.

Oh you meant the one Jesus, Buddha, et al taught. No.

3 people who will be receiving a copy of it in their inbox tomorrow morning :)

I realize that this is off topic a bit, but the "Christians" tend to also select from both the Old and New Testaments to make their points. I have really enjoyed the following:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.asp

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people
regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from
your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as
many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the
homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him
that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an
abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding
some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice,
I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev
1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor
is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery,
as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age,
what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a
woman while she is in her period of menstrual
uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take
offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess
slaves, both male and female, provided they are
purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine
claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the
Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put
to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating
shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a
lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree.
Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the
altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to
admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have
to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed,
including the hair around their temples, even though
this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should
they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin
of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play
football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by
planting two different crops in the same field, as
does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He
also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the
whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16)
Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private
family affair like we do with people who sleep with
their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively,
so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word
is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

...of the Taliborn-again's penchant for hypocritical and selective reading of the Bible. As others have mentioned before, most of these fundigelicals pay more attention to the Jewish laws of the Old Testament than the Jews themselves when it suits their purpose. Interesting behavior for a group that at best sees the Jews as nothing more than a vehicle on the road to their much-desired rapture.

I have read the 'bible'........I do not understand killing anything,
yes, I do,....to maintain my small space on this earth.....if you all really took his REAL message to heart.......an' lived by it.....


there would be No problem.....

but .....we love our egos...(ourselveles)

(did you give one minute, not thinking of yourself today ? )

nt

am not a "buddist".....why must you be "something" .....to believe in,
LIFE ?

political operatives are the ones dividing the country. That You didn't change..they did. And instead of voting on issues, they started to vote on a whole slate of what the rovbots wanted them to vote on. You - you still vote the issues and add up who to vote for yourself in your own mind. And you do it with love in your heart.

such is "democracy".......I seriously doubt "fundies" vote with love in their heart.

democracy, with the needs of other people in mind too. Remind them of that.

If we could choose....I mean "really" choose those that are at at the seats of power , do you really think life in this country would be as it is ?

polls and the polls themselves will be monitored like there is no tomorrow in 2006.

I'm not one who thinks for a second they stole votes using diebold. As to felon lists vetted only for black voters in Florida and not enough machines and pressure on the democrats to show ID (in an attempt to make them scared and give up their votes) these things happen. And have happened often in elections all over the world in one way or another - forever. Little tactics like this are the norm when unethicals local (or national) see a tight elections. And it is wrong. And we have to highlight it. And when we see it..we have to call the local press to that the practice can be documented (now there is an exit poll I'd like to see..local press standing 100 feet from the doors and asking people if they were pressured in any way as they showed the required ID..and this all for a future story - like the next day).And it is up to us to monitor the elections so closely the next time around.. that the political bosses who engage in such tactics...have no choice but to follow the letter of the law. I say we change the electoral laws to allow hidden voice activated recorders on our person to ensure that our rights as voters are not being violated when we vote..or that our grandmothers are not intimidated.

I'm totally for making the electoral laws very, very tight.

I also think that the question of no paper trail should be asked of Bush every where he goes (and all the congressmen & senators) all the time for the next few months. How can they try and impose 'democracy' on far out places when they refuse to make the voting transparent. (More hypocrisy).

especially ..

"I also think that the question of no paper trail should be asked of Bush every where he goes (and all the congressmen & senators) all the time for the next few months. How can they try and impose 'democracy' on far out places when they refuse to make the voting transparent. (More hypocrisy)."

we must all be vigilant on this particular aspect.

is an amazing feat. Would Jesus have executed and mocked a woman who was "saved" and begged for her life? Would Jesus protect the rich at the expense of the poor? Would Jesus lie to wage war?

Jesus called the Pharisees evil because they did the same things Bush is doing. So Bush is more like the Pharisees. He twists the law to suit himself and his friends; he uses faith to do evil. He tries to be God by deciding whose lives are worthy and whose are not.

There is NOTHING in George Bush's life that puts him in the same category with the Prince of Peace. Anone who claims to be a Christian while excusing Bush's lies needs to reread ( if they ever read it) their bible. Bush personifies all that is evil in that book. His life is nothing but full of the fruits of greed, false witness, murder, violence, torture, financial irresponsibility and personal laziness.

Tell your "friend" that he and all of the Republicans are like the Israelites who didn't trust god, but demanded a human "king." True Christians put their faith in God, not any one man. By placing Bush above God - they do this when they excuse Bush's very ungodly, unbiblical, unChristian behavior - they prove the bible is wrong. They are saying that evil is acceptable. These kind did the same thing when Hitler came to power.

Good of you to try to understand this freak and to counter his non- argument. Lots of luck to you!

"Let him that has ears to hear..."

And pay attention to the fruit of the Spirit; Love, Peace,Joy, Goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Patience, and Self-Control. (I've never seen any fruit of the Spirit growing on a thornBush).

For unbelievers; this is still good advice for "clues" to discern a good leader from a bad leader...

which is all-too-frequently misinterpreted by intolerant religious folks, Jesus is speaking about a psychological process. The sword represents the Truth. And what that sword does is to set different aspects of an individual at odds .... because once anyone comes to understand the divine Truth, it is impossible to go back to living life in the same manner as one lived it before. And so one's relationship TO ONE'S SELF necessarily changes. All that was mother to yourself-righteousness, or father to your inequity, must change. In bibical texts, your "household" is your self.

Jesus harsh teachings are all limited to but two groups: the self-righteous and those who harm children. One of the most damaging things that the first group does is to take the Master's higher teachings and apply it to their lower selves. But it would be a waste of your time to debate this with the person in question: if they don't understand these teachings internally, being told will not make any difference.

(In the list of the 12, I do NOT see George Bush nor any of the other neocons listed.)
The New Testament is basically the writings of these disciples and the things they experienced when they were sent on this journey from Jesus.
If you believe in the Bible, then you believe that in this passage are the words spoken by Jesus to a certain few. Not a passage to be quoted to back up arguments for violence and war (of course unless you are one of the disciples).
Interestingly, one of the disciples was Simon who was a member of the Zealots, a subversive political party.

So then let's advance a couple of chapters to Matthew 12:25 where Jesus states "A divided kingdom ends in ruin. A city or home divided against itself cannot stand. And if Satan is casting out Satan, he is fighting himself and destroying his own kingdom."
Matthew 12:33-36 Jesus continues "A tree is identified by it's fruit. A tree from a select variety produces good fruit, poor varieties do not.
You brood of snakes! How could evil men like you speak what is good and right? For a man's heart determines his speech. A good man's speech reveals the treasures within him. An evil-hearted man is filled with venom and his speech reveals that."

The fundies will seek to twist scripture to fit their evilness.
Problem is, you just can't cherry pick scriptures to fit your needs, if you are going to follow the scripture you have to read as to what context things are being said.

He is the light. The dark is the sword/evil. Some people in families will believe he is the son of God, others will not. And this is where the conflict that he speaks of comes into play. And he promises that some day we will know all things. Wow. Imagine me being that smart. LOL.

Really, it's almost entirely a wasted effort and any attempt to change their minds is a long, drawn-out process. "Emergency Bible Arguments" lead only to frustration.

Dueling Bible verses rarely works, since they can always pull more verses out of their asses when the need arises, and will not listen to you or me and our interpretations.

However, the following is taken from a Christian peace list I'm on, and I have eliminated the writer's identification, but it's as good a statement about Christ and Peace as any, without links, but with leads for further exploration. It will not convince any Fundie out there, but it will show you to be in good company for the long road ahead in converting the Fundies to true Christianity.

You might want to get the book.


"The case for Jesus' nonviolence is SO strong that when I was a regular member of the "Scripture and Ethics" and "War, Peace, Violence, and Revolution" interest groups of the Society of Christian Ethics (THE professional society for academically trained Christian ethicists), no one would even dispute the case exegetically.

Many just war theorists would give hermeneutical or theological reasons for why one "had" to ignore Jesus' words or water them down, but no one really took on the exegetical case for the nonviolence of Jesus and the NT. I understand that in the time since I stopped being part of academia, there have been a few attempts to reinvigorate a "biblical case for just war theory"--especially since 9/11, but these have not been well-received by scholars in the field.

In 1994, when I was finishing up my Ph.D. and teaching an intro class of Christian ethics at Southern Baptist seminary in Louisville (as it was being taken over by fundamentalists), I faced the most militaristic group of seminary students I have ever seen--before or since. To this skeptical audience, I not only presented 4 lectures on the biblical basis of nonviolence, but gave a handout showing 155 then-current members of the Society of Biblical Literature (the premier professional society for scripture scholars) who were ON RECORD in published writings as agreeing that Jesus taught nonviolence (whether or not such people were pacifists themselves). I think the % of the SBL who agreed with that assessment, whether or not they have published accordingly, probably ranges above 80%--and these scholars come from different denominations, use different scholarly approaches to Scripture, have different theological assessments of biblical authority, etc.--but the agreement is very high that Jesus taught nonviolence.

The case should be obvious. Gandhi once said that the only people in the world who don't know that Jesus taught and practiced nonviolence are Christians! The irony is amazing, if not shocking.

I'll try to get your friend some good literature recommendations, but she should surely start in a Sunday School class with Walter Wink's Jesus and Nonviolence: A Third Way since it is brief, clearly written for non-experts, brilliantly argued, and has select footnotes to more scholarly works--including those by Wink himself."