DU has lost its mind over the Dean controversy and its just getting silly

8. Agreed....I'd like to know what happened to the man that made that great..

"..speech at the DNC last year...because so far he has acted like a fully paid member of the DLC...and that is NOT what I supported...
"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1535369#1535395

Despite the fact that many DUers were inspired by Obama's awesome speech at the DNC it has now become evident that they simply were not listening. They just saw a handsome Black man speaking at a podium, bringing the audience to tears and getting standing ovations, they simply DID NOT LISTEN!!! The above comment just shows how irrational some DUers and Dean supporters get when, heaven forbid, someone speaks less than complimentary of their lord and savior Howard Dean. For had this poster actually listened to Obama's speech he or she would not have made the above comment. Obama's speech was about unifying the country, not dividing it.

"Yet even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes. Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal America and a conservative America — there's the United States of America. There's not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America. The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and have gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported it. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. "
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-07-27-obama-speech-text_x.htm

Barack Obama is not someone I first heard of last summer, he had been my State Senator and neighbor since the mid 90's and he is no sell-out. He went from representing one of the most liberal state legislative districts in the country to representing a blue state that is really red outside of the six county Chicago metropolitan area. He has not abandoned his true convictions, but unlike the president of the United States he understands that he has an obligation to represent the entire state not just those who voted for him.

His criticism of Dean's comments are in keeping with his speech at the DNC, the very speech that propelled him into the national spotlight. Like many on this board I'm 50/50 on Howard Dean, I agree with what he said, but I think it was a wreckless thing for the chairman of the DNC who "claims" he is trying to help us win in red states to say. This recent controversy does not speak to my concerns regard Dean as much as it speaks to the concerns I have always had when it comes to some of his supporters. Its moments like this that I don't regret making those "kool aid" comments that I was so roundly criticized for.

Its funny we just lose it when Bush, his cronies, FAUX NEWS, hate radio, et al apply their "either you are with us or against us" approach to anyone who does not agree with him. But when Dean supporters do it, its ok and anyone who disagrees with them is a DLC whore, a DINO, etc. I'm just getting sick of this shit!

Very impressive post! I think that people either forget what institution he is now a part of, or they do not realize how it works. We need to have patience.

I like you message. Unity is so important.

:kick:

I've of two minds about it. I really really think that Dean should have chosen his words more carefully, and I think it is fair to ask whether he's helping or hurting our cause. That said, I know the right wing is trying to divide us - they want us to turn on Dean and to turn our future over to some DLC crybaby who they can push around at will. So for that reason I think we should stand by Dean.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

. . .to happen to the GOP and I don't say this to put him down. He is one of their favorite targets, like the Clintons. He may rally our base, but he also rallies their base. At the end of the day it comes down to who has the larger base. We are trying to shore up our base whereas the Republicans are looking to expand theirs.

but, sorry, he's made a big tactical error with what he's said.

Isn't the Patriot Act about to be renewed?Isn't the DSM about to bust into view of hitherto unaware people?Don't we have time for the Dean stuff later?Isn't preventing the Patriot Act a more urgent issue?I for one am losing faith with all the infighting.

. . .however I don't see the MSM media running in here to condemn Richardson, Biden and Obama, its other DUers. Additionally, Dean made some comments (that I agree with) that he knew would get attention, he might have chosen better timing. If you make a controversial statement you must understand its impact and how it affects other news.

It's just that it seems like this patriot act thing is going to slide right into renewal,and that is the beginning of the end,for me.Hopefully,I just don't get it,and I'll see when all is said and done that it was Dean's comments that were the issue at hand,and not DSM and the patriot act renewal.I hate to see the arguing when the wolf,as it were,is at the gate.Seems like the energy could be more positively utilized.But there is a real possibility that I don't get the big picture,so please,forgive my ignorance,if that is the case.

. . .and they are doing a story on the Patriot Act. . .so lets see how many Patriot Act threads will be started on the DU versus threads attacking those who don't go down on Dean.

This isn't one of them.

<sarcasm>

I am not upset at Obama (because I haven't been listening to the news)
over whatever he said about Dean. But he has voted the wrong way on some other bills and nominations since he's been in DC.

As for the "Dean's mouth" issue, you have never liked him, we don't expect you to support Dean. Dean helped Barrack get elected via DFA.
It would be nice if these Democrats instead of commenting to the media would speak to Dean personally first.

Oh god. . .I'm sure Obama appreciates the support. So now I guess he should be a good negro and shut up. . .LOL

There's absolutely no reason for that and is beneath the level of this discussion.

Interject race into the issue. Oh I forget, anything Howard does is good, anyone who goes against him is bad, bad I tell you.

or you SHOULD know it. Dr. Dean was discussing the make-up of the Republican Party, and he was CORRECT! You're interjecting race into a discussion about Obama's remarks about Dr. Dean and there is no call for that. You're suggesting that since Obama is Black, the Democratic Party should afford him special treatment or that the Democratic Party treats him differently because of his race. That is total bullshit and you're comments are completely out of line.
Either you're thick as a brick or you're just trying to disrupt this board.

. . .the special treatment I am asking for as it relates to Barack Obama.

Obama, either and I am black. I did not know much about him but thought, based on comments here, that he would be a much stronger democrat. Instead, he seems to be the type who will just go along and not make waves. He seems to be just like the rest of the DLCers. He didn't have to join the bandwagon and criticize Dean. I don't think any other member of the Congressional Black Caucus did that. Obama just doesn't seem to have any fire at all.

It would be nice if Dean would give more attention to what his comments say before delivering them. One adjective, "extremist" would have saved a lot of grief.

and as far as I can tell Dean did not make the white Christian remark in a disparaging tone, he simply made an observation. Over 90% of the politicians in the GOP are white Christains. The base is white fundamentalists, which I do not consider Christians.

It was not an intelligent observation from an intelligent man who is capable of better phrasing. I do not consider them Christians either, that is why a simple adjective could have avoided the controversy. To me fundamentalists are the extreme. If you have a better adjective use it. Illinois is a blue state for now. It has not always been solid blue. The GOP has been trying to make inroads in the AA community through funding of faith based initiatives and coming up with extremist Christian candidates like Keyes. Obama has to hold this community together. Language that can be portrayed as divisive is harmful and unnecessary. It would be better if Democratic leaders referred the questions back to Dean for clarification but they are leaders who must represent their electorate also, this is politics.

his remark was not aimed at white christians. the media has kowtowed to the religious wingnuts far too much without us worrrying about the white christians offended by Dean's remarks. if they are offended, it's because they listen to rush or fox or MSM. DEAN DID NOT DISPARAGE CHRISTIANS, WHITE OR OTHERWISE. Look up what he actually said.

But I would like white and Christian independents to feel they are welcome in the Democratic Party. The "Scream" was not a big deal either but the media, as you point out, is waiting for another shot. He doesn't need to be timid and there will be problems irregardless. I think he is intelligent enough to avoid giving up the easy ones. I am not upset with his remarks given the place and context, but I'm not upset with Obama for protecting his image either. As I said, the political climate of the Obama/Keyes race hinged on this very subject and Obama knows the problems this remark could create in a race like he has just won. We have to play smarter to win.

or all the other Dems in congress will make as big a fuss as the media? glad that's ok with you, not with me. as i have said, i did not hear obabma say it and i could care less, except that the media should be called for twisting dean's comments. I'll say it one more time DEAN DID NOT DISPARAGE WHITE CHRISTIANS. All our Dems should be saying that too. If we let the media get away with it, they'll do it with everything Dean says.

I think we also agree that the best thing Democratic leaders could do, especially when they do not know the context of the comments, is to not comment themselves. My only point is that Obama's comments do not make him a traitor to the Party. I also think that Obama and others should also think before they speak and play smarter too. I just think it would be a better approach to contact his office and let him know what you think as others have done with Biden. To come on this forum and repeat unrelenting attacks on Obama also feeds the GOP and their media cohorts. I am not directing that at you but the numerous posts that contain the same message over and over, including disinformation of their own. Just as there are those who seize on turmoil with Dean, there are also those who can't wait to do their own bloodletting.

DFA was still DEAN for America when Obama trounced his competition in the Illinois primary in March. And if you think Obama needed the nascent DFA to help him beat ALAN KEYES in a BLUE STATE, then you officially shouldn't participate on this thread.

. . .but I too think its foolish for people to cite Obama's inclusion in the "Dean's Dozen" as a reason to as some say STFU. LOL its laughable, note to candidates up for election in 2006 if you wish to speak freely as it relates to the Chairman of the DNC, don't accept "Dean's Dozen" support, for if you do, you will be asked to represent Dean and his supporters not your local constituents.

those obsenities come from people with no class
asking for loyalty does not mean STFU, it means think before you speak. better yet call Dean first and ask him what he said and what he meant.

John Edwards at least took time to correct himself when the media took what he said as Dem's disagree with Dean.

Like I said, I am not personally mad at Obama because I did not hear his comment, and I really don't want to. As for bringing up his votes on bills that was my guess as to why folks are upset with him.

What I wish Dems would say when asked about other Dems' comments is - did you ask him what he meant or do you have a transcript or video. At least give Dean the benefit of the doubt. Because Dean did NOT disparage white Christians and why Dems are propogating this myth makes me wonder...

Obama's speech is something that I have read over and over again....

and while I am in great admiration of Dean, he may want to go back and read Obama's speech as well.

Repuiblicans seize on comments that they see as dividing us and we keep giving them the opportunity to harp on them.

. . .and divided the Democrats. And unless we agree with Dean we are bad Democrats. I'm staying the HELL away from the Kool Aid. And here is the rub. . .I agree with DEAN on this, but it was a stupid thing to say.

...that the Democrats are 'divided'. But it's not because of Dean that they're divided. It's because the so-called 'centrist' leadership of the Dem party believes it's okay to coddle and appease the Bush junta and act like victims that have to take whatever punishment the Bushies hand out without complaint.

The Democratic party is leaderless and rudderless. Seeing someone like Dean FINALLY give hell to the enemies of the country and party gives people hope that we've not going to take it anymore.

LOL. . .I thought we had a doctor in the house?

...and in fact was put in the DNC chair to keep him from running for president. The Dem party is under the control of the Clintons and the DLC. THEY are behind this drive to discredit and neutralize Dean.

The Clinton/DLC faction have told Dean from the beginning that he's there to 'raise money' and that he doesn't speak FOR the party. They don't want him saying bad things about their corporate friends and donors on the Right.

. . .oh I forgot, Howard Dean WILL NEVER BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYTHING!

...of one or two posters and then accuse 'DU' of drinking the Dean kool aid. It looks as if you're simply trying to deflect attention away from high profile Dems criticizing the chairman in public...when they COULD HAVE done it in private. That they criticized him in public suggests that they had an agenda to help their own careers and not the party.

Many are beginning to wonder why Obama and other Democratic 'leaders' don't have the guts to tell the truth about the Bush Empire. Are they simply afraid it will destroy their careers? Are they complicit?

You don't seem to understand. This isn't about Dean. It's about the Dem rank and file getting sick and tired of being walked on by Bushie Republicans and the leadership saying nothing about it.

. . .if Barack Obama does not agree with Howard Dean on this particular issue and some of his constituents are offended by Dean's comments is Obama obligated to STFU? That is a yes/no question. Barack Obama represents the state of Illinois, not Dean's Dozen.

to drink the Obama kool-aid. An Obama apologist chiding Dean apologists. :eyes: It's people like you that are dividing the Democratic Party because you don't like Dr. Dean's style. You'd much prefer we stick to the "tried and true" methods :puke: of the past that have lost us the Presidency, The House, The Senate and the Judiciary.
Yes, lets all hook ourselves to the rising star, Obama. :eyes: In my opinion, he's just more of the same old, same old in the Democratic Party.
We're never going to agree, so let's agree to disagree.

. . .criticize Obama all you want. . .just be objective. Hell if God crossed Dean. . . er uh I forget Dean is God.

an ass out of yourself. No one said, "Dean is God", but you. I'm not going to argue with anyone who makes statements like that. You've a little soul searching to do.

. . .I will do some soul searching and I will come back on Monday, dissing anyone who does not fully support or endorse CHAIRMAN DEAN!

your mind is as closed to the issue as it could possibly be. Continue to drink your Obama/DLC/Clinton endorsed kool-aid and ignore reality, as usual.

you're doing exactly the same thing for which you're chastising others.

has been such a disappointment.

nothing. I'm sticking with Dean...the rest can go to hell.

Thanks. :hi:

Obama cites race remark, may block nominee

June 10, 2005

BY LYNN SWEET Sun-Times Washington Bureau Chief

Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) may block President Bush's nominee for a top State Department position because she may have made racially charged comments in 1987.

Obama, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, raised his concerns at the Thursday confirmation hearing of Henrietta Holsman Fore, currently director of the U.S. Mint. President Bush has nominated her to be undersecretary of state for management.

Obama was concerned about Fore because of a 1987 newspaper article regarding comments she made about African Americans and Hispanics in a speech she made while a Wellesley College trustee.

The 1987 New York Times article paraphrased her as saying "blacks preferred pushing drugs to working in a factory" and reported she "also said she had found Hispanic workers to be lazy."
-snip-

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sweet/cst-nws-obama10.html

When was the last time Dr. Dean did this? Oh I forgot he does not have the responsibility of being a US Senator.

.... the Republican hate machine echo chamber to trashing your own party members is ridiculous. But nice try.

If you think Obama's liberal happy talk is playing in Peoria, you are delusional.

So many of you wish to go back to a simpler time. I'd like to go too, the difference is that I recognize that going back is impossible - you deal with things as they are not as you wish they were.

LOL

"Its funny we just lose it when Bush, his cronies, FAUX NEWS, hate radio, et al apply their "either you are with us or against us" approach to anyone who does not agree with him. But when Dean supporters do it, its ok and anyone who disagrees with them is a DLC whore, a DINO, etc. I'm just getting sick of this shit!"

Yes, my comment is directed at you and this comment specifically.

. . .you know I am pretty stupid, because I don't drink the Kool Aid.

... people read and listen and decide who is fucking stupid.

. . .and given the climate here at DU lately I'll take that as a compliment.

.... for long enough. I hasn't worked. How many more years, Senate seats, patriot acts, NCLBs, bankruptcy bills, tax cuts for the rich are you willing to absorb.

You might be right but the fact is the Dems have never tried this type of strategy (Dean's), I've been wanting them to for years and it is worth a try.

Sitting around with the same tired happy-talk rhetoric just isn't working my friend. It is time for a change.

He cleared the air, he put into words what we (mostly) all think, he didn't pull any punches and he didn't back down. IMHO I believe it will have a very positive effect. It was cathartic and now we can go on about the business of getting the party back together. The right basically raped us and no one said a darn thing to help us, until Dean. I'm OK with what he said and I'm OK with those who aren't. I feel better that he said all of it though.

Dean was not criticized by Republicans. He was criticized by other Democrats - Obama, Biden, etc.

Obama's remarks were uncalled for. He should have kept his mouth shut and if he wanted to criticize Dean, he should have done it in private.

Obama may be a good man, but he used poor judgment. I will watch his voting record.

I did not support Dean for president, but he is trying to unite the party from the grassroots, and we all need to support that effort.

Surely you are kidding.

:crazy:

but I think your argument fall short here because it is predicated on, of all things, rational thought (I know, who's a thunk it here in DU).

Let me state for the record that I greatly admire Obama - I can still hear that speech today. However, in order to achieve those said goals the impediment to said goals must be removed. Said goals are the far right and their running roughshod over us. Can't you see that no matter how much we preach tolerance and understanding they will deliver a well-placed "thank you, you're welcome" right to the jaw? Every time???

Rational behavior can not work in an irrational setting, which is where we find ourselves today. We MUST remove the evil - we must. Dean is right in what he is doing - he is changing the conversation, and shining a light on the roaches scurrying under our feet. At long last, just maybe, the other side is on the defensive.

Obama is wrong in his PUBLIC criticism - dead wrong. Should he want to do so privately, that is his choice. To do so in the public forum, however, as we attempt to steer the ship out of harm's way, was and is reckless. He should know better.

. . .I get it.

Stop grandstanding.

I worked my ass off for Clark during the last election, and was critical of Dean many times.

However,I can now sit back and look at what he is doing as DNC chair, and realize that he is exactly where he is supposed to be, and if allowed will take his considerable talents of organization and build this party back up.

Just watch him work - he will turn the tables if we (and Mr. Obama) let him.

and Dean isn't working all by himself so forgive me if I don't just sit back and wait for him to turn the tables.

. . .its been a slice. I look forward to see what comes of this thread today.

A little sanity to an otherwise wildly out of control situation.

Now, you know me, and i want the fighters to fight! I AM ok with what Dean said, because reason and decorum has seem to run its course against the charlatans in D.C. It's time someone stood up to them and started taking shots. Unlike you, i think it's a good thing to stir the pot vigorously.

But, in order for that to be effective, someone has to play good cop! All high profile dems can't be bad cop. The problem is that hardly any were doing it. Now, Dean is taking that role, so Obama, and others, are doing the good cop thing. Seems to be a wise tactic, IMO.

Good job.
The Professor

that can be disheartening.

I'm just sick of people wasting time and energy on slamming the other Dems when the best way to support Dean's comments is by donating to the DNC. The best use of their voice and energy is work to further the Downing Street Minutes story locally and nationally.

:kick:

I think it sounds like Obama is striking to be Iben Baught's running mate in '08.

Makes me wonder how much PHARMA money he's gotten since getting to Washington.

We all mis speak sometimes. Don't get bogged down here, we are on the right track, lets just start the day over. Obama is not a bad guy and either is Dean. Now Zell Miller and **sh they are bad guys, should I go on about who the bad guys really are... Lets get our candidates in every seat we can.

...and a :toast: to you.

:kick:

:kick:

THANK YOU, from a fellow Illinoisan (and one who is also troubled by the cultlike rabidity of some Dean supporters around here on the internets).

It's been days upon days of this.

(Goya's "Saturn Devouring His Children")

Obama is playing the game for all it's worth. Well, good for him. Maybe he'll run for president one day. And he'll get my vote, because he'll be running against a Republican, but not because I admire or respect him.

and panties in a wad. Stupid.

Is nothing but a further divder if you ask me. I don't believe it was along the lines of his speech either. It was simply to get himself some airtime. He can pretend the problem doesn't exist all he wants but it's out there staring us all in the face and it has been for years.

Dean was merely stating the truth. Sometimes the truth sucks. Tough shit. Get over it and move on. Address the issue rather than ignore it. The Republican Party is full of fat and sassy white men (mostly Christian with a few Jews, Women and Blacks thrown in as tokens). Yes I said tokens because we all know damned well that's what they are. The Republican Party loves to trot out Condi at every opportunity front and center and show the world how progressive they are with their membership. Well I say Bullfuckingshit. I am sick and tired of wussy Democrats doing their best to be Republican Light. It's time the Democrats took a stand and didn't back down for once.

It's relatively obvious to me that the Democratic Party is positioning Dean as the firebreathing screamer, which is how the media labled him anyway and he's damned well aware of that fact. Dean gets to say whatever the hell everybody thinks, at least to a small degree, and can say it because he doesn't have to face any voters whatsoever. He becomes the radical to fight the radical nature of most of the party in power now.

Obama, on the other hand, is being positioned as the voice of reason and is going to lead the way back to civillity in politics. He's destined for greatness and he needs to represent all of his constituency, including those with whom he does not agree. Disagreement is fine in a civil society. Rhetoric that rises to the level that the Republicans have been spewing for the past two decades, however, leads to a disparity of unity within a nation, and that's ultimately destructive. Dean has to be the example of that same level of rhetoric on our side in order for a voice of reason to emerge. I beleive we are going to see McCain become the voice of reason for the other side, too.

I want to get back to a day where we disagree on various policies, but we are united as Americans. I want the "culture war" to end. I don't want a civil war. I don't want harmful rhetoric from the more radical elements of both sides.

I don't want to feel like I have to be a Democrat first.

I want to be an American first.

soon, hopefully it will be soon. :thumbsup:

:hi:

We miss you.

. . .I have gone over to the dark side, er uh gone legit, so its hard to post from work.

:hi:

A lot of people forget that Obama is used to dealing with the GOP and has a proved record of success in getting stuff done. He managed to get a huge amount accomplished at a time when the GOP in Illinois had control. Obama got an awful lot of "progressive" bills thru that grinder that is Springfield, and he managed it because the IL GOP couldn't dismiss him as some left wing fanatic.

That track record of bi-partisan support for his work is a big reason that I worked my ass off for Obama in both the Primary and the General.

I am about as left as it gets, but I really feel Obama is doing EXACTLY what I hoped he would--he's working to advance the things that need to be advanced, and he's working SMART. He's avoiding the battles that are destined to be lost.

Condi was gonna pass. The election results were gonna go thru. We ALL knew that because the Dem party is in the minority. Obama did what he felt he needed to do.

I was once asked "Are you any less dead if you die defending your high moral ground?" Maybe Obama learned that one a lot sooner than I did...

The Dem party had been seriously lacking in strong leadership since the Clintons won that first election. Think about this--Clinton had good support in both the House and the Senate at various times during his terms. He did an OK job, but the party went adrift and we ended up with a loss of the House, the Senate AND the WH.

WE had a few folks speaking out--Wellstone and Durbin and a few others, but they were just not enough to offset the other factors in place.

Suddenly, in the primary, we had guys like Dean--who did an amazing job of harnessing the internet for organizing, and Clark who had just a huge amount of grass roots support. We had guys like Gore who finally stepped up and spoke out with some conviction--but none of it was enough to turn the whole mess around.

In the middle of it all was Obama. He was magnetic, a gifted orator, and a pretty man who was seen as a rising star. I think expectations were too high for a freshman Senator, and I think Obama is right where he needs to be right now--so is Dean.

Just my two cents, but I am still VERY proud Obama, and I am still very proud of Durbin. Illinois did the right thing when we elected them both, and I'll go down with those particular ships any time it is needful.



Laura

:kick:

that's what all this nonsense is about.

he's raising money from US not the fat cat corporate donors, which dems who get that money will be less beholden to those big donors.

Those democrats who are criticizing Dean are showing what side of that divide they are on.

Dean is not even that different in his policy positions than his critics. The real issue is whether you are moderately business-friendly or on a leash held by business interests.


Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

of the last few years, and that silence scared and depressed me almost as much as anything the Bushies did.

It is not just the criticism, but the context.

Obama is okay, but would you really want ALL dems to be like Biden and Lieberman?


Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog: