2 reasons not to let your kids be boy scouts

The Northeast Georgia Council of the Boy Scouts of America is sponsoring a "2003 American Freedom Rally" on Saturday featuring Oliver North and columnist Ann Coulter.

Holy cow. This couple are the role models for America's youth?

Note to self: Keep my kids out of scouting!

Nice of the Atlanta Journal Constitution to print a letter to the editor about it.
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/0903/23letters.html

Hitler Youth of our time?

" The history of youth movements during the end of the 19th and begining of the 20th Centuries is very complex, and even the limited scope of those that existed exclusively in Germany is nearly impossible to fully document. But as complex as the subject may be, no study would be complete without a mention of the root of most all 20th Century German youth movements - the Wandervogel...
The Wandervogle movement, not unlike many other youth movements that would soon follow, adopted a specific style of dress, a ranking system, and even a system of addressing fellow members. More specific to Germany was a focus on tradional German folk stories, folk songs, and folk heros. At first the movement consisted of exculsively boys, but girls were soon after allowed into the movement as well although the sexes were not intergrated together."
http://www.feldgrau.com/hj.html

Baden Powell was inspired by this Birds of Passage movement!!

Even without the nauseating neocon speakers, their blatantly hateful homophobic stance on gay scouts and scout leaders would be enough to keep well away from them.

Cat

Now that is some scary news. :scared:

:hi:

And, you are right, it's no longer a great idea to be a boyscout.

I don't know what the policy is for Orthdox and Conservative Jews, but Reform Jews are encouraged to not let their sons join because of their policy on gays. At my old temple, many of the parents pulled their sons out of scouts and formed a little troop of outdoorsy kids sponsored by the temple. This would just be another reason to find the organization suspect.

maybe G. Gordon Liddy will appear next year and maybe they can dig up Nixon as well

and they say that the Scouts are a non-political organization


welcome Alpharetta and thanks for the post!

:hi:

I know, I know. The gay thing, and now this.

BSA, I'm sure, doesn't sanction that kind of thing. Sounds local, but it would be nice if BSA came out against it.

We're quitting. There are many good things about it as far as getting kids together, camping, environmental awareness, being good citizens. IMO the bad things, in addition to the above, are an overemphasis of religion and earning awards. It's kind of good for kids to learn that sometimes just doing the right thing is its own reward.

Get kids into hiking, outdoors activities in a positive way

that do basically the same thing as the BSA but are co-ed and aren't hung up on the gay issue

my gosh, the Girl Scouts are light years ahead of the BSA.

this whole thing is pathetic

While totally understanding all the criticisms of the BSA, i was an eagle scout, and a scout lifeguard. I learned to swim in rough seas and do lifesaving with various floats. I went to taiwan with my troop, rowed canoes around catalina and did a whole lotta fun things that kept me from smoking cannabis as a teenager... i only really discovered the weed in latter years.

Though certainly there was a homophobic element and a bullying element involved, equally, there was a way for me to meet many different parents and hang out with them on campouts getting exposure that my parents could not give... also, going camping, backpacking and all that good stuff as a teenager is healthy stuff.

I remember having a real war inside my troop between the homophobic bullies and our faction... just the activities of scouting are so "active" and individual, like tying knots... or learning wood craft... that a wise kid need not become entangled in any wierd bits. You can go to campouts with your kid and share in that experience... all in all, it was a blessing to this life's teenage years... i was troop chess champion :-) It was like being in the british army and having lots of outdoor games and compass running in the hills...

So much depends on the troop. Sea scouts can learn even more boating stuff which is really nice. I think it more like martial arts dojos, though it appears to be "kendo" or whatever... its all about the teacher... and if they are impeccable, the dojo is good.. similarly with scoutmasters.

How about this extreme rewrite of your scout critique?:

"I was in the KKK, and it was good fun...

"So much depends on the klaven. Sure, some of them had lynchings and such, but even though it was the official position of the KKK that lynchings were OK, it was really up to the leader of the particular klaven whether there actually were any."

Why do we continue to accept discrimination in this country when it comes to sexual orientation? Anti-semitism, racism and gender discrimination are generally looked down on in this country, at least conceptually (though, let's face it, there still plenty of room for improvement there as well). But if you're gay - heaven forbid.

I learned a lot in Scouting, and generally thought it to be a positive experience.

Today's Scouting movement has very little in common with the one I knew only 15-20 years ago.

Fucking sad, I tell ya. If I had kids, there's no way in Hell I let them anywhere near the BSA.

trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent...

geez, its been 20+ years... has it really changed that much... ? of course, if the neocons have touched it... of course... duuh.. i'm the dummy. Its hitler youth i'm sure... that explains why i've had nothing to do with the BSA since 1980.

and hungry...

Our local Scout troop is very cool. The homosexuaol issue just isn't an issue here, and no one preaches any more than is traditional for Scouts (I promiss to do my best, to do my duty, for God and my country...).

As I see it, my parental duty is to introduce my children to issues of faith. I would rather they learn religion from me, than from a stranger. Heh. Sounds like I'm talking about sex, or drugs. LOL

Anyway, Scouting can be cool, but like everything else that concerns kids, you need to be aware, and a part of what goes on - don't passively assign your children's educational and social lessons to strangers.

I am not going to let you say that the Boy Scouts is a bad thing. I am 16 and a member of the Boy Scouts. The troop I am in doesn't exclude anyone because of race or sexuality. If I weren't a Boy Scout I would not be where I am today. In the Scouts I learned valuable presentation, leadership, and outdoor skills that will help me for the rest of my life. If I hadn't been so involved in Scouting I would most likely at this moment be taking a big bong load behind my high school and be destined to do absolutely nothing for the rest of my life. As it is now I am a straight A student, planning to go UC Berkeley for pre med. I do think that the Boy Scouts ban on gays is a terrible thing, (It's that way mostly because the mormons have a strong grip on the national program) but personally I will never be able to pay back the scouts for what it has done for my life. Hell if it weren't for Scouts I wouldnt be on DU and wouldn't know anything about politics.

But don't take my advice, I'm not a reich-wing scout leader.



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Your post is inspiring and i would have written exactly what you just wrote as a life scout aged 16. Also i had straight A's and a scholarship.

I found in truth that scouts was a community outside of my disfunctional family where i learned about life... and that could have been any community just that the BSA existed and did the job... it was funny when i turned 19 and was "too old" to be a scout anymore... that that organizational family disappeared from my life to be replaced over time by spiritual cults where i was even more profoundly honoured to meet some of the world's real heavyweight enlightened guru's... and to live a life in their grace.

If my family had been really functional, i don't know if scouting would quite mean the same as a teenager. Also, in my emotional neglect, i became a straight A scolarship overachiever goody goody eagle scout... all to be ruined by cannabis :-D

If i were to write a message in time to myself in boyscouts at 16, i'd say: Everything you are learning right now is based on people who believe that life is about "doing something". This comes from the prodestant culture in boy scout propaganda of a british army man baden powell. In a prodestant culture, you work hard in life for lotsa attaboys, pats on the head, and in adult life, this is supposed to be the paycheque, morally higher for being a "hard" worker.

This entire ethos is a lie as it is based on suspending "living" for a future achievement. Boyscouts is indoctrinating you in prodestant christianity subtly.

I am now a buddhist. I don't believe that life exists outside of this moment... that life is a series of moments like pearls. I spent many years un-learning "doing"... that in being still and "not doing" is sublime. Life is complex and takes care of itself if you do not "think"... and in fact "thinking knowledge" is secondary and trivial next to sublime awareness without thought.

As the BSA is really about religion, i mention it. Good luck 16 years old straight A premed berkely boy scout. :-)

Hitler Youth helped out a lot of boys too.

the Boy Scouts is a bad thing.

They do some good things, of course. But their irrational homophobia undercuts everything else. I'd rather kids learn tolerance and respect than knot tying.

And let somebody in your troop come out of the closet - then you'll see what an issue it is.

So what do we do? Just let the pod people take over this organization, or do we fight for it? I think there are many positive qualities to scouting, and to let another institution in this country be overun by a group of worthless fundies would be a travesty.

qualities to scouting (and I applaud your resistance to the lunatics who are intent on taking over the organisation)

they've ALWAYS controlled it. The anti-gay stance is not new. Nor is the anti-atheist stance.

As to what to do? Find another organization that does similar things and also shares your values.

It seems to me the lessons the kids are learning is that discrimination is OK, as long as there are OTHER benefits that outweigh the discrimination.

… could it be were jumping the gun on this one? I for one am still proud of our freedom. I’d be even more proud if we were free from Bushco, but lets focus on the guilty parties not young men growing up with otherwise genuine morals that we would all like them to.
... I’d sure hate for my son to turn towards gangs as an alternative. Right?

Boy Scouts had to be one of the most horrible experiences of his life, but he stuck through it and it wound up helping him win scholarship money to go to college... to become a jazz musician and a good liberal. Ah, I love how that worked out. :D

They're a bunch of homophobes - disgusting.

They buy into the myth that there's something "wrong" with gay people. The buy into the myth that gay men are going to attack their boys. Yet every couple of years, there's a story about some non-gay BSA leader sexually abusing kids in his troop (like that predator back in Ohio a couple of years ago).

In NJ (and here in Vegas) the scout troops get to recruit on the school grounds. I questioned this in NJ - why was an openly discriminatory organization allowed to recruit in tax payer supported buildings? I got blank stares and "well, they do so much good" crap from the school administrators.

My son (now 10) was often asked to join the scouts by his freinds. I have told him EXACTLY why he would never be joining the scouts - they are anti-gay people, they discriminate against others for disgusting, immature, quasi-religious reasons and are no more to be associated with than other ignorant, phobic bullies. The Hitler Youth also got to wear spiffy uniforms, participate in arts and crafts and learn about brotherhood. They were also taught to view other people as inferior and/or sick...or worse, out to get them.

Over reaction on my part? Sorry, I don't think so.

There has been an incredible amount of good done by Scout troops across this country. Moreover its you people who decide the direction your council takes. Getting off the couch and getting involved insures that it remains true to what its intended to do.

well documented. This from their own website:

"On June 28, 2000, the United States Supreme Court reaffirmed the Boy Scouts of America's standing as a private organization with the right to set its own membership and leadership standards. (click here to read the CNN report. The ruling allows the BSA to discriminate against gays: http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/scotus.gay.boyscouts/)

The BSA respects the rights of people and groups who hold values that differ from those encompassed in the Scout Oath and Law, and the BSA makes no effort to deny the rights of those whose views differ to hold their attitudes or opinions.

Scouts come from all walks of life and are exposed to diversity in Scouting that they may not otherwise experience. The Boy Scouts of America aims to allow youth to live and learn as children and enjoy Scouting without immersing them in the politics of the day.

We hope that our supporters will continue to value the Boy Scouts of America's respect for diversity and the positive impact Scouting has on young people's lives. We realize that not every individual nor organization prescribes to the same beliefs that the BSA does, but we hope that all Americans can be as respectful of our beliefs as we are of theirs and support the overall good Scouting does in American communities."

In other words, "fuck you, we don't like gay people, and the republican SC says that's just OK with them."

So don't give me the old tired lie that it's up to each individual troop to decide if they're raving, moderate or indifferent homophobes. It's the BSA's OFFICIAL god-damned position.

They want to discriminate like a private club.

Yet, they still want United Way and other charity bucks and the ability to have all the other quirks afforded a public institution.

Hypocritic Phucks.

A number of places in the U.S. have been looking into affiliating with Scouts Canada

http://scouts.ca

which, not surprisingly, is blessedly free of the homophobia and jingoism that increasingly characterize the BSA.

I'll bet they know a lot about the deep woods, too!

Translated - parental discussion/debate/fight

The younger 2, aged 10 and 8, wanted to join and after trying to discuss what our issues with the BSA are to no avail (just too young to totally understand)we came up with a solution:

Dad is the troop leader of the younger one so he's around to know what's going on and if they come home spouting fundy or an extreme sense of nationalism they're outta there. Of course when liberal Dad shows his true colors they'll probably kick him out anyway and if he's not there they won't be there.

Our Boy Scout troop does not discriminate against ANYONE. Homosexuals are completely welcome. Now we are in California, so I can't speak for the freeper scouts elsewhere. Someone mentioned that other activities would be just as good at keeping a kid busy. They are probably right but this program worked for me. I am not a sports guy and I enjoy public speaking. It fit perfectly. No politics are discussed in our troop. It's just a good time for guys to hang out with their friends and go to cool places that you can't see in the city. As for Ann Coulter speaking at a Scout event, around here we wouldn't put up for that nonsense. I guess what I am trying to say is the problem is at the national level, not at the troop level where people are just there to have a good time, and get away from *'s Amerikkka. If anything we would kick out racists and homophobes.

I assume your troop has had this discussion, correct?

Has your troop also written a letter to the BSA national headquarters telling them you disagree with their STATED anti-gay policy? Have you informed them that contrary to their stated policy, you encourage gay men to apply for positions as troop leaders?

And, as long as you're willing to ignore or, in fact, act contrary to at least one stated policy of the BSA (a stated policy the BSA believed so strongly in that they took it all the way up to the Supreme Court which overturned a State (NJ) Supreme Court ruling), what other parts of the "scout way" do you ignore? If my son joined your troop, would he recite the entire Scout Oath...or do you leave out the references to God...or Honor...or Obey?

I've got news for you - if, as you say, "the problem is at the national level," then it most certainly is also a problem at the local level.

I have mixed feelings about this.

Do I defend the crazy acts of various counsels around the nation? No, but I will say that Scouting was excellent for me in my little troop in Birmingham, Alabama. I have always been on the liberal end of things. Scouting, like most things, is what you make of it and is defined by individual troops, not the counsels. I learned a great deal of things in Scouting, and if I had sons, I would encourage them to go into it. I have daughters and am looking forward to them joining the GSA, and hopefully I can be of assistance as a leader in a troop for them.

I cringe at the ignorance displayed by the BSA in many areas, but I also understand the importance of Scouting in the lives of many young boys.

I guess it isn't a black or white issue.

The acronym for Girl Scouts is GSUSA.

Also ftr--they are NOT officially affiliated with BSA. They are an entirely separate group, and unlike the Boy Scouts, do not serve as the "youth group" for LDS--or for any church.

Oliver North + Ann Coulter = the Nazi faction of the far right.

I was, my brothers were, my Dad was Scoutmaster.

But that was 30 years ago. Today its run by fundy homophobes who are trying to build a new hitler youth. Fuck 'em...

My son can play baseball in Little League instead...

I have raised thousands of dollars to send kids to summer camp that have no means of doing so. I have done countless hours of service for the local community including working at the Second Harvest Food Bank (definite racist group), doing trail work (homophobic activity), and working with the elderly (Sign of desire for ethnic cleansing). Your guys posts make me sick! I am liberal, I do not discriminate against anyone, and I fight every day of life to spread the truth about the unelected fraud to freeperville Orange County. In doing this I even receive violent threats. I thought this was a place to speak your mind and get away from people calling you names. I guess its no different being called a commie in the real world or being called a nazi or klansman on here. Thanks a lot for the support. Go back to your cheney is a nazi bastard posts.

yet you belong to an organization (BSA) that openly discriminates against gay people.

The BSA's overt discrimination ran afoul of the NJ State Constitution, so the BSA was slapped down by the NJ State Supreme Court. But the BSA felt so strongly about their right to discriminate against gays that they took their case to the republican-dominated SCOTUS - which promptly affirmed the BSA's right to discriminate on the basis that they were a private organization.

As far as anyone calling you names, it's simple - if you belong to the BSA, you belong to and support an organization that has a stated policy of discrimination against gays. What part of "discriminate" don't you understand? Discrimination is like pregnant - you don't get a little pregnant, n'est pas?

As far as the odious comparisons to the klan and the Hitler Youth, why mince words? The analogies are quite obvious, and the BSA's attempts to shield themselves from the charge of discrimination by trolloping out their record of good works are not much more than a transparent band-aid that reeks with the same hollowness as bush wrapping himself in the flag.