I'm seeing a lot of changed minds about Iraq and Chimpy McCokespoon.

Last week, a woman in my class, mid-20s, very sweet, said her husband was seriously considering joining the Army so he could go to Iraq and "serve his country and protect us." She said she didn't want him to.

I found out he's 25, a police officer. I told her he's doing far more to serve and protect America right here, being a police officer, than he would in that FUBAR mess in Iraq.

Then I asked her "what would he be protecting us from if he went to fight in Iraq?" She shrugged and said "I don't know....terrorists?" I said "What terrorists?" She said "I don't know, I thought we were fighting terrorists there?" (She spoke it as a question.)

I asked her what Iraq did to us to deserve being attacked and invaded. She said "Well I know they didn't have anything to do with 9/11" (thank God she knew that).

That's when the lady to my left, in her 50s and a bush voter, said "They DIDN'T?" We both turned to her and explained no, most of the hijackers were Saudi. NONE were Iraqi, and even bush has said SH wasn't behind 9/11.

She looked confused and I'm just sitting there thinking "DAMN, people STILL think that???" Finally she said "I didn't know that." I encouraged her to tell other people, so they'd know the truth, too. She said she was going to tell her husband, another bush voter. Then mentioned "he's not too happy with bush anymore anyway and I'm tired of ALL of them."

(Yes, I know. GRRRRRRRRRRR. But at least I'm seeing evidence of the low approval ratings right in front of my eyes.)

So I turn back to sweet 25 year old woman and ask her if her husband is prepared to kill Iraqis. "Well, I mean, if they're terrorists," she said. I asked her how he would know. She suggested the Army would train him on how to know. I asked her what the difference was between defending your home and acting as a terrorist. She said she understood my point. Emphasized she doesn't want him to go. I told her I'd never let anyone I love go to that FUBAR mess. I said the troops already there, they're just doing their job, just doing what they are told, but if I had any choice about it, I'd try to stop anyone I loved from going.

Lady in her 50s then asked something a bit startling: "Do you think any Iraqi children have been killed?" I told her I know they have, I've seen the pictures, I've read the stories. "Where?" she wanted to know. I wrote down some sites for her. She looked thoughtful then said, "This is like Vietnam."

I agreed with her. That's when 25 Year old Woman pulled me off to the side to ask me more. I gave her a whole list of websites, including DU, to check out. She said they didn't vote in the last election, but they "tend to lean towards Democrats." I told her "let the bush voters who approved this man's war go fight it....they're not signing up, you'll notice. That should tell people something."

So today she comes in and tells me she and her husband have spent the last week looking at all the sites I gave her and they are both convinced that Iraq is a mess, and a war we should have never started. In fact, her husband convinced his BROTHER not to enlist and forwarded the list of sites to him.

One person at a time, I guess. Start a chain reaction.

not being afraid to speak the truth to others is the first step.

Good for you!

but the truth eventually comes out.

Like the balloons at the convention that slowly trickled down, one at a time.

Please I encourage everyone here to start talking to those you know you disagree with, how else is everyone going wake up to the truth if people like us don't even take the time to tell them.

shows what one person can do

What a great story. A little scary at times, but :applause: to you for taking the time to set things right. :)

I mean even he was forced to admit there were no WMDs and no connections to 9-11. Where are people getting their info? Rush? Do they just hear crap from the preacher at the fundie church? Is it the soundbites on the news? It's not like she's heard nothing. She believed that Iraq had something to do with 9-11. Good for you for setting her straight and yet another reminder to NOT remain silent when friends, family, and co-workers are spreading propaganda. Minds can be changed, especially if you counter b.s. with facts, logic, and ethics.

at this point.

As long as someone else brings it up, I'm going to open my mouth and speak.

about it. It's nothing they personally would do, so why would the government? They listen to the news, it's not telling them anything differently, and they accept this as reality. It's easier to swallow and the media isn't challenging it.

it's horrific. but getting easier to believe by the day.

how much they lie - people will just wash their hands of all of them (including the Democrats) and give up.

but it just blows me away that people still think Iraq had anything to do with 9/11... I mean it really shows that people just aren't paying attention. Or the propaganda news machine is truly all powerful

It never gets re-processed or re-examined, it's just set in stone, unless someone actually says to their face "No, that's NOT true."

The bush voting woman did look really.....lost when we told her that. Especially the part about bush admitting SH was not behind it. Looked like she was free-falling there for a second or two.

I am stunned. On which planet has this lady been for the past two years?

Most people don't even want to think about that, much less ask the question.

Yeah, it was a stupid question, I mean of course they have, BUT I bet that was quite a breakthrough for her to even ask it. I was glad she did. The child deaths have haunted me the most.

Not many people have seen that terrible picture of that little girl crying after her parents were murdered by US troops. I can't look at that picture... to me it is more of a testament to the war in Iraq than the guy with the hood and the electrodes.

Print that picture off and give it to them. Tell them her story.

have done about this.

Good job. That's REALLY scary that that woman was so clueless about Iraq not being involved in 9/11. There is hope however that she was open to listen to the facts. I fear most people are so programmed that they wouldn't believe Bush lied about the war if he admitted it to their face.

Again... good job. You may well have saved that man's life.

If she had said her husband wanted to enlist to hunt Taliban and Al Qaeda types in Afghanistan (and Pakistan if Bush had any cojones)... I couldn't think of a more noble cause.

reaction. We tell one person or ten and each of them tells one or ten -- and it just keeps on going. I've become VERY outspoken with people. Not everyone is interested or will listen, of course, but A LOT OF PEOPLE are and do.

you may speak to 20 people about these issues in a week. And 18 of them may blow it off.

But those two that didn't? You just planted a seed. And they may go in search of more information, tell other people they know, and it keeps going.

I talked to one guy (Dem) who said he found out months later that a woman who OVERHEARD him talking about bush ended up voting for Kerry because of that conversation he was having with SOMEONE ELSE. She got curious, found out a lot more, and ended up voting for Kerry. She ran into him recently (at a homeowner's association meeting) and told him that. He was blown away. Sometimes it's people we aren't even speaking to directly!

meet at the corner pub a few days a week. We discuss Politics and the current 'issues' like DSM, etc. We purposely speak a little louder than necessary so others around can hear.
Many interesting conversations with total strangers have resulted. We know that even the ones who don't join in are getting more information than they get from the teevee! (Corporate info-tainment is another great subject that gets people riled!)

WE ARE THE MEDIA! :-)

This is a rather startling comment on the effectiveness of the media propaganda campaign on behalf of the Bushies. I often assume that people in this country are even mildly engaged enough to think a bit critically of the information that is spooned to them daily as comforting pablum, reinforcing deeply rooted belief structures. But it is still shocking to me the level of disengagement of the citizenry of this country as the powers that be send them careening over the cliff.

Congrats on the success. In the larger picture, let us hope that this debacle is the beginning of a wake up call for all planetary citizens that we better evolve pretty quickly or face ruination. Our so called leaders on both sides have become nothing more than crude reflections in a funhouse mirror - reflections of a society trained to see the quantum world of infinite possibilities through the narrow spyglass of a drunken pirate.

The chain reaction...ripples in clear water...

I've just been listening to music in my car, not watching the news on TV (I never do, though) and only glancing at newspaper headlines and I can TOTALLY see how people can just casually believe the biggest lies. Oh and I haven't been on DU much or the internet at all.

It's startlingly easy to see how this could happen.

and most of the news programs are falling far short of telling the truth about what's going on - in fact, I would go so far as to say most news sources are dropping the ball. It's comprehensible that someone could be that ignorant of what's going on in Iraq.

I've heard of some fundamentalist websites that are geared toward women encouraging their readers not to watch or listen to news because it's so depressing and interferes with their sense of serenity. I also vaguely remember some news stories about that around the year 2002 - articles in an upstate New York paper, possibly picked up from elsewhere, telling people that if they were overly stressed or feeling depressed, the best thing to do was to stop watching or listening to the news. I wish I could remember more, but I can definitely recall them because I discussed them with several members of my family, who were thunderstruck that the news media would deliberately tell people NOT to watch news!

Considering that a lot of people use Internet access for nothing more than email or looking at Ebay, it's just not surprising that there are people out there who are so ignorant. I hope the tide is turning - and yes, hopefully these two women will each talk to two people, who will talk to two people ...

I was a German prof and searched language, history, lit, philosophy, German news sites, etc

and knew media was no source of info

listening to MALLOY at WLS in Chicago clued me in to the internet as a source of political info....he was always giving out web site addresses

the point of this.......MANY PEOPLE DO NOT REALIZE THEY CAN USE THE INTERNET FOR POLITICAL INFO....and even if they do, many do not know how to find useful sites

was Socialism or Barbarism.

That is getting more relevant by the day. To me at least :)

You deserve a standing ovation. BRAVO! I am nominating. Bless you!!

these days it ain't a suprise.
while you're at it print "senator brents" post and spread it around. people love these lists.
It's on the greatest three times now!
good going sweetie!

With the same avatars, I don't recognize anyone anymore! LOL!

wonderful post BB!
it feels like people are ready for the truth, huh? been a long time coming.

I only just met these people a couple of weeks ago and that was the first political conversation I had with them, but yeah. One of the headlines on the front page of the Dallas Morning News today is "Poll: Majority Says War in Iraq a Mistake" and when I saw that in a newsstand, I thought "WELL DUH!!!"

probably many more than those two.....

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

too late

It always burns me up.

But hey. Whatever.

could have changed back then

:hug: Thank you for those people that you enlightened, for the Iraqis you saved by that man not being sent over there to kill, for the children of the couple who will have a chance to know their father, for so many things.

:cry: You make me so proud to be a member of the DU community! :patriot:

I really didn't think of it as that big of a deal, just sending out more ripples.

And as a veteran's wife, it felt a bit weird to be talking someone out of joining the military, but seriously, there's just no way I would sit there and not say anything. That shit is TOO fucked up.

Thank you, too....:hug:

Your rocks of truth have touched so many lifes and in such good ways. :-)

Not like the lies of the admin that have resulted in death and destruction. Your truths are combating the lies and have helped to save lifes, as you touched the wife, she touched her husband, who then touched his brother and the brother will touch others, sharing the truth and stopping others from going to fight in the senseless war.

Definite Ripple Effect! :grouphug:


:hug: Ripple On! :patriot:

:kick:

I find it distressing as a wife of a Vet and a vet myself to advise kids to stay away from the service. (Not US Miltiary but a vet nonetheless)

I'm collecting "conversion stories" --

Pa. GOP honcho blasts right wing, switches parties
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1825375
Link: http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-06022005-497208.html

Republican says his party has been taken over by "a bunch of kooks"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1811231

Are we witnessing the collapse of the Republican Party?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3732175

The Good Republicans (Plaid Adder)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3729680#3733287

Post in this thread:
Voinovich is in tears on Senate floor!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1809081&mesg_id=1809207

A Voter Switches Party Affiliation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1803102&mesg_id=1803102

Something in the air? Lots of converted Repubs....
(links to the following three threads)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3654563

New to DU by reformedrepub (14 posts at the time)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1780575

OMG - my parents LEAVE the Republican Party!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3652906

Hi, my name is Stacy, and I'm a recovering Republican...................
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3651186&mesg_id=3651186&page=


WELL DONE!!!

Life under this NeoCon dictatorship can get so depressing. Stories like these help to give us hope. :)

That bottom one is my personal conversion story!!! I have come a long way, baby! I'm really glad you saved those! Thank you!


Peace,
Stacy

brentspeak (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-23-05 04:29 PM
Original message
Senator BRENT responds to comments made by Karl Rove

(er, if I was a Senator)

Apology? No, I don't ask for an apology from Mr.Rove. In fact, I'm grateful for what he said. It gives me an opportunity to speak about the differences between Democrats and Republicans when it comes to combatting terrorism.

It was a Democratic administration that captured and convicted the terrorists who attacked the WTC in 1993.

It was a Democrat who instituted the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and who appointed the nation's first national coordinator of anti-terrorist efforts.

It was a Democrat who stopped the Al Qaeda millennium hijacking and bombing plots.


And a Democrat who stopped the planned attack to kill the Pope.

And a Democrat who stopped the planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.

A Democrat who stopped the planned attack to blow up Boston airport.

A Democrat who stopped the planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.

A Democrat who Tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).

A Democrat who named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.

A Democrat who sent legislation to Congress to TIGHTEN AIRPORT SECURITY. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.)

A Democrat who sent legislation to Congress to allow for BETTER TRACKING OF TERRORIST FUNDING. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.

But it was a Republican president who flaunted a 30-day vacation at his ranch in the month prior to 9/11; a vacation coordinated by none other than Mr. Karl Rove to convey a public image of the President as "relaxed, and taking things easy."

And it was a Republican administration that drove not one but two anti-terrorism czars to resign in frustration, due to conflicts with the White House.

And it was a Republican National Security Advisor who, prior to 9/11, crafted a national security presentation that included mention of the Star Wars missile defense program, Cuba's Fidel Castro, and unaccounted nuclear materials from the former Soviet Union -- but no mention at all of Islamic terrorism.

So, no. No apology is necessary from Mr.Rove. A "You're welcome" would be more appropriate.

I love it! Adding that to my list. Thank you!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1879795

it's strange, i almost missed it too. while it was #1 in the greatest, LOL!
i think everybody was like senator WHO???
but there are some nice additions to the OP in that thread. i think i'll compile it and repost it again and again. till we have it memorized.

Thank you.






Peace.


www.missionnotaccomplished.us - One question, my fellow Americans, why have we not yet jailed Bush?

And all their families.

I mean, the military has been put in a tight spot, but sorry, the executive and legislative branch are currently controlled by evil warmongering fuckwads.

Thanks for that. You always have interesting life experiences to share.

you're welcome! :hi:

I actually haven't had any kind of political experience besides Democracy Fest last weekend in quite a while. I feel like I've been out of it.

Thanks again.

:bounce: :bounce: Good on ya! :toast:

What other websites did you write down? (Other than DU of course!)

I wrote down daily kos, veteransforpeace.org, Baghdad Burning, Buzzflash, Democracy for America, lots of others I can't remember now.

I love it!!

Great post. I love hearing these stories... give me hope that the tide is slowly turning our way.

thanks for posting it.

I have often thought of how ignorant millions of Amerikans are and why.

It seems to be a combination of factors: The outright lies of the Bush Regime and the complicity of the RW Corp Media, plus many people's lack of interest in politics.

The Bush Regime never outright stated that Saddam had anything to do with 911 but he was indirectly linked. Cheney was the main perpetrator of false info, constantly linking al Q with Saddam. The constant statements about "terrorists" in Iraq gives the defenite impression that they are the same people that attacked on 911. Before the illegal invasion constant statements about WMDs and Iraq being a threat to Amerika also brainwashed millions into believing that Saddam could actually inflict harm to the U.S. If one studies the barrage of propaganda by the Bush Regime aided by the RW Corp Media it becomes clear how millions have been duped.

and a good example...me, I would have trouble not screaming and ranting at anyone who asked something like "do you think children have been killed?" I'll try to remember this if I have a similar chance to spread truth

I don't know what the word is......just tired? Saddened? That I don't even get that urge (to rant) anymore. I used to. Before the election, that question would have sent me over the edge.

But she was honestly wondering and I was glad she was. Most bush voters wouldn't even think to ask that. At least the ones I know. Or if they do, they wouldn't want to know.

:hug:

I've been saying this for a couple of months about the people I'm talking to. Not just about Iraq, but their feelings in general about this Admin. We're getting to them and every lie that is brought to the surface is another boost to our cause.

I haven't seen this much confusion and out right anger from my local Republican, since Bush took office. :bounce:

Keep talking, never stop. It's up to us to drive this home.

You know what else I noticed? Where did the "W" stickers go?

Where did the magnetic ribbons go?

I swear there was a time just a year ago when every other car had one to three of those magnetic ribbons and now I hardly see them. I noticed that last week and so now I intentionally look on my commute from hell this month.

Also, I might see one "W" sticker a day. On a two hour, twenty minute round trip commute alllllll the way through Dallas and the suburbs. Yesterday, I never saw a single one.

I live in an majority retirement community. They seem to have caught on a little faster than the younger people. The young males are the slowest to permit it to seep through their thick skulls. Yet, I've even had some of them changing their views lately.

I actually have Republicans seeking me out for my views these days. After I close my gaping jaw, I deal with them gently, but honestly. I never thought I'd see the day when my views were respected to some of these people. They used to pat me on the head for being confused. GRRR!

the question: "Do you think any Iraqi children have been killed?"

This disturbs me deeply.

I was bothered by some comments lamenting children killed in the early stages of the war in Afghanistan - a callous 'well what did they expect... its a war!' (as if the kids and families had invited the war.) But somehow this comment is even worse. No rationalizing of the ugly reality... just a complete and intentional disconnect from reality - an intentional shut down of the brain.

One can't do "Shock and Awe" and have no innocent children hit.

One can't plow down an entire city - after a very short period for civilian evacuation and have no innocent children hit.

In the desire not to bother folks' beautiful minds - did they hear rummy say something early on about "precision bombing" and leave it at that having perhaps one single thought "that's good, then no innocent children will be hit..." and then stop thinking altogether?

I can tell already that this statement is going to ring in my head for a long time to come. It is, simply, stunning and frightening - all at the same time.

the woman who asked that asked with a look of concern on her face. She looked bothered when she asked it. She's a third grade teacher and seems to adore children. She teaches in a low-income area, some really poor kids. I know to us we think "so then WHY would she vote for republicans if she loves kids?" but she apparently just votes for whomever her husband votes for. She doesn't seem to think about it much, if at all.

Yeah, it DID seem like it was the first time she had thought of it (the Iraqi children), but based on the conversations I USED to have around here with republicans, in which they denied children were killed in Iraq, or attacked ME for even mentioning it, I saw this as HUGE progress.

Does that make sense?

Yes, of course, to someone like me or you, we follow this war, we've followed it from the beginning and we've SEEN the pictures of those poor childrens' bodies and we know it's inevitable that children, adults, teenagers, the elderly will continue to be killed in Iraq, but this woman is not on the internet at all, and I don't see FUX news showing any pictures of dead Iraqi children. They never have. They're all "rah rah yay republicans!"

And I thought it was amazing that she drew the parallel to Vietnam.

I don't know where you live, but for a bush voter in their 50s around here to ask what she did, to say what she did today....it's a big deal.

but split time between a liberal college town, and Urban Indianapolis - in the burbs of Indy and probably around much of the state would be life long republicans. I just don't run across them often. Do work with some Indy business types - but they are pretty smart, moderate - and I really don't know if they vote dem or rep (centrist is the key - they probably vote for both of our current senators).

But getting back to this kid thing. What do they think war is? How can there be a war with no civilian casualties? Did they sleep through Vietnam? Never see pictures of Hiroshima, or London during the bomb raids? It is one thing (and quite shocking) to not think about it (but for frickin TWO YEARS?) - it is another in what you describe in this post - thinking about the war and being willfully ignorant.. of course kids die in war. To deny that reality.

Wow. I would imagine trying to rationalize it - its a shame but a necessary evil.. for the bigger good blahdeblahdeblah... and am guessing that would be what I would hear in this state (we tend to be pretty pragmatic - even if conservative in many areas.) But willfully ignorant? Like there is a blank spot in their brain where there should be some exposure to recent history which would address this issue.

But still most haunting is an almost innocent shock that I read in your words when she first asked the question... as if it hadn't occured to her and that just the possibility was an awful thought. Makes chills run down my spine, and makes me fear for our country (if we can block this out so well - we really can be anesthetized enough to follow horrific leaders and implement horrific policies where they to unfold.)

And you are right, I didn't get the sense she had ever really thought about kids being killed in Iraq before that day.

But I think a lot of Americans are like her, sadly. And there are too many nice little distractions (teevee shows) to keep them from thinking about it.

Just like U.S. children were killed on 9/11 buy the precision air strike from the terrorists.

to just block that reality out of one's mind for two years, because it is disturbing? Wow.

Attacks to kill - kill - children as well as adults.

Or are you trying to make another point?

Please tell me, I'm dying to know.

Children were killed on 9/11. A horrible, horrible truth.

Are you saying that justifies the killing of innocent Iraqi citizens who had no ties to 9/11?

Just curious.

given that bush himself has admitted no connection and had accordingly revised his reasons for going to war (democracy!)

sorta misses the point that not only are there Iraqi children who have died, but there are members of the military who have been put into the situation to have to do the killing... as with Vietnam - not knowing who or where the next attack is coming from ends up with quick trigger fingers... and those folks have to live witih that horror (the situation and the realities of the results of those actions) for the rest of their lives. I know some Vietnam vets who were haunted for at least twenty years by what they lived through and had to do while there.

you probably need to elaborate rather quickly, especially considering the fact that I mentioned in my opening post that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and even bush said that, too.

So, why make that point if one has nothing to do with the other?

Quick. Fast. 11 posts and comparing Iraq to 9/11 doesn't bode well in our reality-based, fact-based community.

Not just the wars that the U.S. starts. 9/11 really has nothing direct ally to do with Iraq except to point out that we are not the only ones that kill children.

that kill children" (where the heck did you get that from this thread?) As much as to point out that she hadn't considered that in any war (or attack) innocent children are likely to be killed.

Funny that you felt that point had to be made... sort of presumes the old 'america-hater' position as the reason behind any discussion such as this.

"YOU DA WOMAN!!!"? :yourock: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

It's anecdotes like this that give me more of the "warm and fuzzies" than 100 news stories even could!

'Most people prefer to believe that their leaders are just and fair, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which he lives is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all.'
-Michael Rivero
-----
In view of the primitive simplicity of their minds they more easily fall a victim to a big lie than to a little one, since they themselves lie in little things, but would be ashamed of lies that were too big.
Such a falsehood will never enter their heads and they will not be able to believe in the possibility of such monstrous effrontery and infamous misrepresentation in others; yes, even when enlightened on the subject, they will long doubt and waver, and continue to accept at least one of these causes as true.
Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, part I chapter X
----
"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."

“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a
simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a
fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country.” --- Hermann Goering

From Brainwashing America, by Dr. Norman Livergood, former Dept. Head at the US Army War College:

Personality Profiling and Simulation


In an earlier article, I reviewed the varied aspects of personality profiling and simulation. While serving as Head of the Artificial Intelligence Department at the U.S. Army War College, 1993-1995, I conducted studies on profiling, psychological programming, and brainwashing. I explored and developed personality simulation systems, an advanced technology used in military war games, FBI profiling, political campaigning, and advertising. Part of my discovery was that:

* unenlightened human minds are combinations of infantile beliefs and emotional patterns

* these patterns can be simulated in profiling systems

* these profiling systems can be used to program and control people

Personality simulation systems are being used to create political campaigns that apply voter profiles to control their voting behavior. TV commercials and programs use personality simulation to profile viewers to control their purchasing and viewing behaviors. And sophisticated propaganda and brainwashing techniques are being used by the Bush junta to keep American citizens under control.(emphasis added /jc)

http://www.hermes-press.com/brainwash1.htm

Thanks for speaking up. You may have saved some lives, and it helps to bring the end to this war that much closer.

Children Killed and Maimed in Cluster Bomb Attack on Town
by Robert Fisk in Baghdad and Justin Huggler

At least 11 civilians, nine of them children, were killed in Hilla in central Iraq yesterday, according to reporters in the town who said they appeared to be the victims of bombing.
Reporters from the Reuters news agency said they counted the bodies of 11 civilians and two Iraqi fighters in the Babylon suburb, 50 miles south of Baghdad. Nine of the dead were children, one a baby. Hospital workers said as many as 33 civilians were killed.

Terrifying film of women and children later emerged after Reuters and the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi authorities to take their cameras into the town. Their pictures – the first by Western news agencies from the Iraqi side of the battlefront – showed babies cut in half and children with amputation wounds, apparently caused by American shellfire and cluster bombs.

Much of the videotape was too terrible to show on television and the agencies' Baghdad editors felt able to send only a few minutes of a 21-minute tape that included a father holding out pieces of his baby and screaming "cowards, cowards'' into the camera. Two lorryloads of bodies, including women in flowered dresses, could be seen outside the Hilla hospital.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0516-25.htm

and put an end to our part in it.

She's really nice, originally from Iowa.

one at time - drip, drip, drip...

I haven't been on here much lately either, just starting up again.

I still see plenty of the ribbons etc. but there definitely seems to have been a significant dropoff from a couple few months ago.

We need to get together for some dim sum or other goodies again soon. Actually a DU gathering for that would be cool.

I wondered what happened to you. The husband and I would still like to take you and your wife out to eat. After all, it is our turn. Or we could wait for a DU get together if that is more comfortable for you.

I haven't had dim sum since that lunch. I'm dying. LOL!

Thanks for fighting the fight for us.:hug: :hi:

You are such a good person, bouncy :hug:

I have talked to some of the Bush voters that I work with and they are starting to wonder why he is fucking up and why Iraq is getting worse. Then I tell them some things and they have a deer in headlights look and are like "wow, I didn't know that......where did you hear about this? tell me more."


Shocking that we have a hugely uniformed public, partly becuase of the lack of journalisim left in this country.

:yourock:

:applause:

But, there are so many people who are just wrapped in their everyday lives, trying to pay the bills, helping their kids with the homework. The ignorance just floors me, though. Good work, Bouncy.

They spread the lies, spin and propaganda.

They have blood on their hands.

Those people are a waste of fucking oxygen.

I wonder how many lives you saved because of that one encounter?
I'm awed. :hug:

We need to revive this fine old poster.

Warmongers: Hey we're gonna have a war, steal some oil. Wanna come?

Citizen: Guess not.

Warmongers: You'll pay more for gas if we don't steal this oil.

Citizen: Yeah, well, I spose I'd rather do that than kill someone.

Warmonger: Then do it for your country. You love your country, doncha?

Citizen: What's that got to do with anything.

Warmonger: OK, well let's say their leader's mean as all getout and he's gonna attack us?

Citizen: Well, if he attacks, I'll join your war, but if he doesn't, think I'll stay home.

Warmonger: Well, how about we go over there and free all those people then.

Citizen: Nah, I guess if they want to be free it's up to them.

Warmonger: You stinkin unpatriotic, freedom-hatin liberal. How can we have a war if no one comes!!!!!

heads in the sand. I heard it from a journalist and I wish I could remember who it was. He said that Saddam would not allow terrorists in his country because they could turn on him. And he kept a tight rein on his people.

And give people the definition of insurgent and explain that the ones from Iraq are Nationalists more than terrorists. The others have come in to help out their cause.

This journalist also pointed out, (because he spent a long time in Iraq) that the new terrorists used to sit in bars and drink and smoke. Now they have grown their beards and quit smoking and drinking. Our invasion has caused them to become Taliban.

in·sur·gent Audio pronunciation of "insurgent" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-sûrjnt)
adj.

1. Rising in revolt against established authority, especially a government.
2. Rebelling against the leadership of a political party.

America is waking up......Sound the bells!!!!

DSM has arrived to stay! http://afterdowningstreet.org

You bring your stories to life!

We used to fight over bush. things have changed. Look at this recent letter.

"We ain't got no fucking party; they're all no fucking good. Their god is
Money and Power. And FUCK the working stiff to get it."

last week and as usual,our conversation turned to politics. My daughter overheard our conversation and chimed in with "Bush will burn in hell" (good little liberal that she is :D ). Well, my jaw hit the ground when my friend said "Yes, he will". :wow: She voted for Bush twice and has always been a rabid fan. She is finally starting to wake up! I sent her home with The New Pearl Harbor and Crossing the Rubicon. I've tried to get her to read books like these in the past, but she was never open to it. The tide is turning.

Great job, Bouncy. You give us all hope -- and something to strive for.

So many seem to have their minds firmly clamped shut. You know, the ones who are
absolutely adamant that Chimp has made us safe from terrorists. :crazy: