As a former Republican, I feel I have the right to say this........

I'm hoping by giving incite into the Republican mind, it may be easier to sway them to the left. If you understand them we have a better shot at beating them, or at least bring some with a few brain cells to our team. I feel alot of guilt about my Republican past, and I feel this is the best way I can contribute to our group, and atone for my past blind hate.


There are generally two types of Republicans.

1. Rich business people that don't give a shit about anyone, but themselves.
2. Paranoid, ignorants that know very little about the world around them.

The second group thinks if they cling to the first group, they will be "protected." They think if they cling and agree with the first group they will eventually be "successful" and "powerful" too. Also, I think they feel threatened by change, and hate what they do not know. They don't have any first hand experience with minorities, or the G&L community, so they hate them because they were told to by the generation before them. The second group is taught that the "minorities" use social programs and those taxes are what is keeping them from being millionaires, too. The Republican party does not "advocate" understanding other cultures of ways of life, and teaches fear and hate more or less as a defense mechanism. If you "hate" or "fear" what you do not know, it makes it less likely you'll ever try to understand it, and always want protection from that unknown. Fear and hate has to be promoted within the party otherwise there would be no party. If the second group ever lost it's need for "protection" they would turn on the first group.

So to sum up, I would say they fear what they don't know. And that cycle of fear must be maintained in order for the Republican party to survive. If we can break that cycle we can beat the Republican party.

Fear, fear, fear. Yep, that is there mantra.

Are you a recent convert?

things like universal healthcare. This keeps group 2 dependent on group one then?

Welcome to the light converted_democrat.

We do need to have an understanding of these things.

The corporate people hate those two items because they can't profit from it in someway and make themselves richer and inturn make talking points to where they can get other people to hate them as well. If they tried it out I betcha most of them would like it.

very well in Bowling for Columbine, how it's woven into the very fabric of American history. Fear of Indians, fear of witches, fear of blacks, fear of terrorists. I think you are 100% correct. They LOVE fear ...

So nice to have you on our side, Converted. You give us hope.

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If you still want to read his rant on the topic, it's at
http://www.neoperspectives.com/farenheight_911.htm
Poor guy, trying so very hard to pimp his own rw site to us, I almost felt sad hitting the 'lert. The least I can do is give him a linkback for his troubles.

...and I kept thinking, somewhere he's going to say something like, "I suddenly realized that all those right-wing pundits were wrong, wrong, wrong about this film," but I read and read and didn't come to anything like that, so I skipped to the bottom, and then I felt like I'd really been "had," to to speak when I realized he was just trashing MM all the way through, so I came back to check his profile, which was there for a second, and then BAM he was gone. And I was thinking, :wtf: , I wasn't even talking about F9/11 anyway...I was talking about Bowling for Columbine, which makes excellent points about the power of fear, but, sadly, I was too late.

Oh, well, at least I got to witness a troll at work briefly. I usually miss the little guys.

Thanks for posting this.

No coincidence, I'm sure, that the key to Hitler's Germany was also fearmongering. :evilgrin:

...and I haven't stopped calling ** and Co. Nazis, either. Am I bad?

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself!"

Guess Oklahoma, Georgia and other southern states forgot over a generation what FDR did for this country. And he took the job during a depression.

The FDR Library & Historic Links: http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/

n/t

Have you ever thought about starting a website where you can give tips about various issues for how to handle the situation and stuff?

I honestly think that people that have been former Republicans would be in a better position to talk to and convert other Republicans to the Democratic party. They have a tendency to dismiss anyone they think is different or God forbid "Liberal." Knowing that you were once in the same boat as they carries a little more weight with them, I think. The biggest thing is just convincing them that all human beings have value, and that we have more things in common than not.
I don't know how to setup a website, but I would give tips or information to anyone who does know how.

Yes, unfortunately it seems the "culture of life" applies only to fetuses and does not include the born, particularly if you have too much melanin in your skin tone.

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for former Republicans? Someone who joins might collaborate with you on a website..

that by supporting the first group they will become a members of it by association. what they don't realize is that the first group has absolutely no interest or intention of helping them become anything more than they are - foot-soldiers and ditto-heads unquestioningly following their corporate masters

And if they do by any chance become a member of the first group it's because they can do their deeds and everything. They've sacrificed something to be in this group. Be called on for favors and things like that.

What's amazing is that the GOP has been so effective at pushing the buttons of this second group, that they ignore the fact that they are getting crapped on with respect to health care, unemployment, veterans' benefits, etc.

It helps to hear about "what's so" from the repub side - we spend so much time sitting here shaking our heads, just not understanding what's behind their points of view.

From your perspective, where does the evangelical movement fit in? What differentiates evangelicalism from what we have traditionally knows as Christianity? How much of the right is evangelical? Are all evangeliccals political?

Thanks...

Evangelical Christianity thrives on fear, too.

Most "Evangelicals" are political, and really outspoken about it, but there aren't that many of them. They hijacked the conservative name because it gives them credibility and it makes their numbers look bigger. I would say they really only account for 15% to 20% of the U.S. population. Most evangelicals have a past, hence the name "born again." My family is Christian, but nothing fanatical. In my own experience anyone that "introduces" themselves as Evangelical needs to be watched. Of course that isn't always the case, but it is in most. Most evangelicals I know stand for exactly the opposite of Jesus. They are self centered, materialistic, and love to judge others that are different from them.
I can't remember the exact quote, but didn't Napoleon say something to the effect of---Religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich?

"Religion is the opiate of the masses."

Evil Kumquat

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I think he would have put the idiot box on equal footing.

Idiot Box + Religion = Big farking mess....

...In Calvin & Hobbes.

At least, I HOPE it was C&H.

I remember the comparison being made between Marx's quote and television.

Evil Kumquat

Of course there's the 3rd leg of modern Republicanism - the Christian Republican Leadership who have their own agenda of control and manipulation. They have a significant body of people who have been brainwashed to believe that Republicans are somehow more godly than their Democratic brethern. The Rich and faux-Religious have banded together to form an unholy alliance and both work the paranoid ignorants against their best interests.

be changed. They cynically know what they are doing. The paranoid ignorant types can be reached out to by breaking their ties to whatever cult they are in. They have to have a circle they cling to that all believe the same tripe, whether it is the church they belong to or even the group where their bingo games are played. This group needs to be told what to do by a leader.

This group really needs information, but giving them phamphlets and other well reasoned material to read is a waste of time as most of them are semi-literate. Talking to them is the best way. Do it on their terms not making them look like fools and lead them to the truth. Since I know most of them haven't read the Bible and only get their religion second hand, this is a good way to start, with liberal Jesus.

Might help us help others. Thanks for your candor. All of us at one time or another have been subjected to the sounds of hatred and predjudical comments. Many of us certainly grew-up around it. Yet, we did not loose sight of our freedoms and civil liberties.

When you're an American it just comes/came natural, like common knowledge without giving it any thought.

This administration, the worst ever in our own and the worlds history if you ask me, has stirred-up a lot of basic fears and hatred. This is worse then the pre-civil rights era because at least we had democracy with some sort of power.

Now... I dunno. Corporations & the New World Order is behind all this, if you ask me. We need as many Americans as possible (from all sides of the coin) to join together so we can get our country back.

We help them understand minority groups and other cultures are not something to fear. Then they lose their need for "protection." There by breaking the back of the Republican party forever.

as we do?

Like:

Poverty
Joblessness
Under-education
No-education
No health insurance
Loss of Pensions
Possible loss of Social Security
Seperation of their fellow Americans (meaning us...)

Sharing in the same fears as "us," such as:
Freedoms
Liberties
Justice
And the American Way

Whatever the hell that means in the Land of Cookoo-Banana.

We know that these issues should not exist in the greatest country on Earth. They are taught that if you ask for help, or you can't "pull yourself up by the boot straps," it's your own damn problem. They honestly believe that if they "just work a little harder" this stuff will come to them, even though it rarely does. Plus to ask for help or "expect" something out of your government is viewed as a weakness. We have the same issues, we just view them completely differently. We think of the good of all involved, they are taught to care only about themselves.

have little trouble convincing themselves that everything good they get is only fair, but not the bad; and suspect the reverse to be true of others.

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/rebel_flag.html

Check out this guy's site... he apparently believes we've been duped by Bush but still... read the bible quotes giving credence as to why the south should rise again and why that confed flag is better, according to more then several passages from the bible. He even mentions it's the 1 banner to have in the Armageddon period.

On Edit: The Armageddon he's referring to is the south against the north.

Read it. I felt sick. And wait till you see his credentials.

the biggest organs of thought are what they crave and what they feel.

E.g., I wouldn't be surprised if gays coming out of closet has done more to further general acceptance than anything else--mostly because a lot of fearful people discovered that some of their favorite friends and relatives are gay.

Socially conservative middle-class people. They aren't rich, but they have a nice life and don't like to rock the boat. A sub-group would be those who are struggling with health care and education but are still socially conservative. They tend to be traditional in their beliefs. Personally I think this group would be ones we should target.

This group also votes in larger numbers.

You can't win over the rich and the ignorant. I think we could, with good leadership and good candidates win over the middle class Republican. For those of you who think I mean giving in on our core beliefs - NO. Just educate and try to make them realize that we have the better ideas.

is starting to do a great job of converting those folks. I can not tell you how often folks I know, who fit the group to which you refer, have started to express out loud a discomfort with the extremism that is running their party.

I don't think it will take much - beyond grass roots TALKING to people and letting them get to know and see how like minded we are on issues that matter - that will win folks over. But really it is more the extremism on the right - that is becoming more clear as they have become more emboldened on the one hand and more clumsy on the other - that will push them into "winnable over" territory.

Putting Cheney out there, for example, to spout now widely known lies, that the public knows are lies, and the public knows he knows are lies... and a few more folks start growing more uneasy about the whole party. Then put out that story that the global warming reports were doctored - by non scientists... while I daily see odd weather... and I begin to wonder about what else they are lying... Now I am ready to be responsive to some folks "in the other party."

What's the Matter With Kansas: How Conservatives Won The Heart of America, by Thomas Frank

:toast:

and it guides a lot of my philosophy lately.

Most of the Republicans I know ar nice people. Of course, I have the advantage of living in a nice quiet middle class neighborhood. From my conversatitions, they aren't war mongers and they don't hate gays, and they would never have the bad manners to even talk about abortion.
They do care about "traditional values". They are Boy Scouts not members of the KKK.

I wish that everybody on DU would read that book. People here often get caught up in rather insignificant social issues. "What's the Matter with Kansas" illustrates how Republicans have used these "wedge" issues to divert attention from their economic policies which suppress the poor.

Conservatives are often described on DU as evil people who have a completely different goal for America from us liberals do. The book shows that they are generally good and decent people who have simply been misled to believe that Democrats are the party of the "elite", and that Republicans are the Party which represents those who are economically and culturally oppressed.

:hi:

almost like all of our years of "drip, drip, drip"... just to be disappointed - was actually correct. I felt a HUGE shift here in Indiana around the Schaivo story - made a lot of middle of the roaders quite uncomfortable - and suddenly more willing to express that discomfort out loud.

just after the election.

-----------


Hightlighted points

Fight the Class War
Champion Small Business Over Big Business
Protect Tom Joad
Turn the Hunters and the Exurbs Green
Become a Teddy Roosevelt Clone
Clean Up Government
Use the Values Prism

----------------------

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1207-25.htm

The Democrat's Da Vinci Code
How the path to nirvana is painted right on the 2004 electoral map

by David Sirota

As the Democratic Party goes through its quadrennial self-flagellation process, the same tired old consultants and insiders are once again complaining that Democratic elected officials have no national agenda and no message.

Yet encrypted within the 2004 election map is a clear national economic platform to build a lasting majority. You don’t need Fibonacci’s sequence, a decoder ring, or 3-D glasses to see it. You just need to start asking the right questions.

Where, for instance, does a Democrat get off using a progressive message to become governor of Montana? How does an economic populist Democrat keep winning a congressional seat in what is arguably America’s most Republican district? Why do culturally conservative rural Wisconsin voters keep sending a Vietnam-era anti-war Democrat back to Congress? What does a self-described socialist do to win support from conservative working-class voters in northern New England?

The answers to these and other questions are the Democrats' very own Da Vinci Code—a road map to political divinity. It is the path Karl Rove fears. He knows his GOP is vulnerable to Democrats who finally follow leaders who have translated a populist economic agenda into powerful cultural and values messages. It also threatens groups like the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC), which has pushed the Democratic Party to give up on its working-class roots and embrace big business' agenda. These New Democrats, backed by huge corporate contributions, say that the party must reduce corporate regulation and embrace a free-trade policy that is wiping out local economies throughout the heartland. They have the nerve to call this agenda “centrist” even though poll after poll shows it is far out of the mainstream. Yet these centrists get slaughtered at the ballot box, and their counterparts—the progressive economic populists—are racking up wins and relegating the DLC argument to the scrap heap.

Populism works. Especially economic populism.

Funny thing - though Dean says things that sometimes spark ridicule from the right (esp the talking heads)... he leaves a reverberation in the air - that resonates with folks who hadn't yet put words to their discomfort... the fact that everyone then attacks him - just serves to have the sentiment (stated oft in hyperbolic terms) - stay out there a little longer - and hit a nerve of familiarity with a few more folks. And he gets press. He is much better, imo, as DNC chair than he was as a candidate.

Interesting times we are in.

Four months ago I would not have predicted such a shift - and such an ineptness from the GOP in dealing with it. They just pushed too hard and too fast, and suddenly don't look very credible to folks who are not die hard true believers. The longer this current situation is the status quo - the better for us.

But rest assured - that isn't that we should just stand back - we have to exploit this by word of mouth. Capitalize on the growing illease... and our future leaders better be crafting a message with an alternative Vision (with hope) - for people to turn TO instead of just turning away from. Otherwise the shift will be short lived (one or two election cycles at best - not even to the election cycle at worst.)

LOOK OUT! He grew up in a fundi home and is a Recovered Republican as well.

the Dem Party moved and left them behind (both centrists and progressives have felt this at different times)

Now - it is many in the traditional GOP coalition who are experiencing the same thing.

The group that you refer to voted in Clinton in his first term. Remember BushI and "No new taxes." They don't like liars, I agree, but they don't like minorities either. The key is getting that group to have a better understanding of other cultures and minority groups, so they don't "fear" them. Hence taking power from the Republican Party forever.

I've been trying to convert my Republican relatives when they come up here for a visit. Captive audience makes it easier. I believe I converted my sister-in law, but my rich Dr. brother is still hung up on bush because of all his tax breaks. He still needs a lot of work but I think with time and his wife's new input/outlook that he will come into the light. However my dear sister is a lost cause and will no longer speak to me or even exchange emails. She is simply a die-hard bush lover and can't be reached. Her own daughter told me she was to STUPID to comprehend the issues. Thank goodness MDH and all my children and their spouses are all Democrats!

:shrug: Most I know do anyhow.

Many of them hate minorities, they are just less outspoken about it. The hate comes from ignorance, so they clearly fall into the second group.

:hi:

on the issue of Civil Unions... that is - suddenly to many Americans that seems like the compromise or "reasonable" position. That was not true three or four years ago. The hammering and pounding from the reactionary religious right - shifted some folks in the middle over.

I think OKNancy's point is it is the traditional moderate group - that in todays spectrum is closer to the middle than it is the leaders in the GOP party - that are ripe for the taking. It is they who are suddenly "okay with" civil unions (just noting the shift in their position).

It is they who still affiliate GOP not out of ideology - but out of habit and assumption that there are still some in the GOP that represent them... as that becomes less clear (esp with the strong arm tactics used by TeamDeLay/Rove in the House) - these same folks are suddenly more responsive to messages of fairness - esp economic populism. That is the group to target - and to push all of them into a broad category called "Ignorant" - misses the distinction needed to identify and then woo this very winnable group.

But they are ignorant. I was ignorant, but I changed. Gays are not something to "fear." If they decide to marry who will it hurt? No one. To take the position that gay marriage will hurt marriage as an institution is an ignorant position, yet it is a position that many hold. Most of the ignorants are winnable. I was ignorant, but I changed my views, and my family is coming along too. Ignorant, while may have a bad connotation is not really an insult. Ignorance stems from simply not having experience with the subject at hand, or complete understanding of an issue.(Usually through no fault of the person.) They just don't have all the information.

is that every nation that legalized it quickly went down the toilet, from the Roman Empire on down.

Rome had a lot of other problems, too, but those quick easy explanations are easy to sell to those willing to listen and hard to counter by those on our side, because the true explanation is often longer & more detailed.

like invading other cultures, over-reaching itself, and being forced to use one set of conquered peoples to police another set of conquered peoples. THAT really didn't help Rome's stability.

as the Empire was getting on in years, they starting making extensive use of mercenaries as a fighting force... oops.

and it had nothing to do with gay marriage.

Not the ones I know. I have a buisness in conservative Tulsa. All sorts of people are my patrons. I've never seen any of that.
But as I said earlier, they have good manners and would never say it out loud, at least to me.

get him around the Christmas tree with the rest of the male members of the family and whoa nelly. All they can talk about is how some minority groups are multiplying quicker than the whites. I wouldn't repeat the rest out of respect, but trust me, people can be quite two faced.

It was how he was raised and how I was raised. That is what ignorance is. Not knowing any better. Now you can either condemn, or you can rise above and teach a better way. I'm choosing to rise above.

But I've heard the people we are talking about open up when they think they aren't in mixed company and it's nothing pretty, lemme tell you.

Thank you for your insights.

Wondering about the ignorance/fear/hatred/anger connection. I see a lot of these types funneling a huge amount of anger at immigrants.

How to encourage education and tolerance among people is a key thing.

I really appreciate your sharing your thoughts here - gave me a good feeling and some hope for the future of our country.


:)

I was ignorant because I had never met a member of a minority group, and believed what I was told. After I met some for myself, and got to know them, I changed my opinion. I converted quite nicely, and most of my family is coming around too.

I have known a lot of middle class conservatives who still cling to the concept of trickle down economics. Most have inherited the belief that the Republican moneyed class are born leaders and have the knowhow to make this country the greatest and the best. It is some kind of faith in the party and remnants of the concept that aristocratic leaderships have concern for the peasantry.

complete financial disaster and losing thier standard of living for good, come a health or other related illness, while unemployed.

I cant fathom the idea of the "middle class" supporting the party of the super-rich, when these cretins are responsible for much of the carnage in middle-class working conditions, lay-offs, and overseas outsourcing in the US and elsewhere.

This administration is trading on the hopelessness that they have created.

We tried Help is On the Way

it din't werk so good

Dare To Hope!
?

rather than "Selling Hope" (which by default is far off)

Bringing jobs home (through policies that promote keeping jobs here rather than counting outsourced jobs as "exports" and a plus on the trade deficit)

Building a stronger, more self sufficient (as in not depending on foreign countries or financial instutions to fee our debt <national and personal>) society

A world community united in promoting peace and prosperity

Investment in American Ingenuity and Enterpreneurialship for solving pressing challenges such as alternative energy - and alternative materials to plastic (which is petrol dependent).

I believe hope is more powerful than faith..
To have hope means believing you have a role in shaping your future. To have faith is to surrender your free will and sense of personal responsibility.

I have read that historically speaking, our species is becoming more, not less civilized. Hard as it may be to believe in this dark age, if we can discredit and survive Bu$hco, our grandchildren may experience a democracy renewed.

That is my hope and why I cant shut up about the crimes of these white collar Sopranos.

Lets make this our theme song:

DANCING IN THE STREETS
Hey, comin’ out around the world be ready for a brand new beat
Oh, summer’s here and the time is right, oh, for dancing in the street
Dancing in chicago (dancing in the street)
Down in new orleans (dancing in the street)
In new york city (dancing in the street)

All we need is music, sweet music (sweet, sweet music)
They’ll be music everywhere (everywhere)
They’ll be laughing, singing, music swinging and dancing in the street

It doesn’t matter what you wear just as long as you are there
They’re dancing (dancing in the street) oh oh

This is an invitation across the nation the chance for folks to meet
There’ll be swinging, swaying, music playing and dancing in the street

Philadelphia, pa now (dancing in the street)
Baltimore and d.c. (dancing in the street)
Can’t forget them other cities (dancing in the street)

social conservatives and the wealthied business class under one GOP tent. One good wedge in the middle and it'll break in 2. What's the wedge, you ask? Showing the social conservatives that they are being manipulated by the business interests. Think of the new bankruptcy laws. Think of the SC ruling on imminent domain, the 2005 budget cuts to social services, the tax cuts for the rich and all the other little things that they've done to screw the working poor.

We have to get the second group to turn on the first group. Leaving the super rich in the super small minority.

"have nots" to continue voting "R." Elections would not be close enough to steal if middle class repukes wised up and started voting their own self interest. Thus the media feeds the masses stories about Michael Jackson and runaway brides and numerous other diversions to keep them as ignorant and uninformed as is humanly possible.

disconnect between what their leaders say to get elected and what they actually don't do once elected. They don't understand that once elected, their leaders stop caring about them period! Do I feel sorry for them? Not one bit! I don't understand how any caring human being could ever be a republican! Makes no sense to me.

I didn't know any better and either did those around me. It is amazing what lengths people go to, to insulate themselves from the world. After I lost the insulation, I changed.

:shrug: I was raised a liberal and a democrat. Lucky me! It's all I know how to be and it makes the most sense to me. Glad you changed.

I was was stunned at the level of absolute terror expressed by Republicans on internet chat boards over the election of Clinton in '92. They were terrorized because they thought Clinton would confiscate their homes and "steal" their income. LOL. It blew my mind! I guarantee there are millions of Americans who truly think Democrats are "communists." I blame talk radio for this. Ironically, it was Clinton's broadcast deregulation of 1996 which allowed talk radio to become so dominant (and Reagan's elimination of the Fairness Doctrine, too).

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They are ignorant. They believe what they are told, and don't question it, and follow blindly.

I think they know more than that and do more than just follow.

Actual curiosity, not baiting you....

I didn't meet a member of a minority group until I was in my late teens. I believed what I was told by the generation before me, with absolutely no first hand knowledge to go on. I was completely ignorant to the "real" world around me.

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We do have alot of common ground. The extremely wealthy are screwing everyone else. Democrats for the most part have figured that out. For some reason though, the middle class and poor Republicans are catching on a bit slow. My purpose is to help my fellow Dems realize that the best way to "reach" these working class and poor conservatives is making the "second" group that I am referring to turn on the "first" group. If both sides go after the super rich and the corporations that are destroying our country, perhaps we will have a shot at saving our country.

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-above the subject line in the section called "message options"- - -

Welcome to DU. We always gain from as many rational viewpoints as we can get.

:toast:

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policy.

A good friend used to work for Hudson - he trained at U Chicago with economists, I trained with Stanford economists. Very different world views. I also grew up the daughter of a keynsian economist - on whose dis. committee was Galbraith. My friend and I realized that on economic theories - what drives growth etc - we were not going to teach each other - but through our beliefs - and on other policy issues we were able to hammer out some very sound policy proposals - because of the ability to use those beliefs as referent points rather than rigid truths to be solely adhered to. That is part of the serious problems, imo, in policy formulation today. Rigid adherence to narrow ideology - and casting off alternative views - prevents the ability to see the actual negative consequences of different policies (and there are always some unintended, often negative consequences) and thus unable to address those unintended consequences.

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the economy expands when more people have more to spend and consume - this comes from steadily rising wages - and an expansion of wage earners. Sort of reverse supply side economics - more on the demand side. But it has to be real - not credit based which is why the recovery - that part of it that was driven by consumption was shallow.

Too much of our economy is now "on paper" ... money earned on the transactions of stocks - which is about moving money around, rather than investment tied into production - which is - in simple terms the creation of real goods and then there trade there of. Starting in the late 80s there was a draw to the market that was, imo, unhealthy in terms of growing the economy in a real and sustainable way. Rather than investments for real growth over time - companies began to chase only quarterly returns - which led to very short sighted business planning... or conversely due to the threat of leveraged buyouts - companies were intentionally taking on debt at a certain level that wasn't driven by real business needs planning but by the short term need to have enough debt to be unattractive for takeover but not enough debt to be vulnerable to a leveraged takeover.

Then you had escalating executive compensation that got disconnected from real performance. The level of how absurd it had gotten in the name of being able to get the "better executive" was when in the early 1990s with a sour economy - comapnies that were underperforming, or worse losing money in quarter after quarter were still giving execs HUGE bonuses.

More money has moved away from real investment in R & D - that area in which we have had corporate dominance for years - why - because the profits seen from those come further down the line and we had rewritten how corporations were deemed to be successful.

My father took on interesting work on the power that institutional investors could have in reforming corporate boards with Members who would change executive compensation - raise the exec annual salary (this was late 80s - when salaries were lower than they are now) - but give delayed bonuses - say starting the quarter after the fifth year, and each quarter there after for the length (of quarters) of the executive's service to the company.

American dominance at the time (and we are losing, if we have not lost the edge) is in the initial development of new products - after several years of production the advantage is lost to lower cost labor markets - wise companies had they not been pursuing short term greed per quarter (and caring more about paper value rather than real earnings based on productivity/production) would have developed more flexible manufacturing models - plants designed to be easily refitted - fluidly changing out after those first few years - with the company then shifting production to the lower cost labor market.

We would have maintained a stronger economuic base (people earning decent wages), we would have maintained economic corporate edge, and we would not have had to move to accounting tricks and games to try to "show" quarterly profits.

However these practices were good for the really wealthy to extract paper value out (commissions on stock trades, etc.) while not reinvesting in ways that really generates wealth. Thus these policies did NOT help middle and lower wage earners.

The whole how much the government taxes isn't responsible for economic growth. We had a long economic expansion when we had a much higher tax rate - did that cause the expansion...no, but neither did slashing taxes cause a lasting expansion. However if we use tools of the government it should be more an the demand side (policies that generate more income for middle and lower working class earners) rather than tilt it to the top - as the bush team had done.


From your theories of lower public charitable investment I gathered that yours were very liberterian economic views. The idea that when there is more money in private hands that more of that money gets a) given to charitable causes, or b) invested in ways that produce more wealth through production. In the era of the Reagan tax cuts it was shown that wealthier individuals (those benefitting from the tax cuts) gave less proportionately rather than more. That may be fine depending upon whether we are counting on that charitable giving to address social needs that we believe need to be met (eg there is a social good not to have brazillian style shantytown ghettos), but to presume that tax cuts will lead to covering those needs is not founded in actual behavior of Americans in the 1980s. Nor was the level of investment in the Bush tax cut era spent in investments that moved the economy.

Clinton's ideas of targetted tax cuts would have, imo, done better than Bush's in this era. Bigger breaks when jobs are kept in the states. Bigger breaks for direct investment in business expansion - especially in non service sectors (that is sectors that produce and create).

By the way - we are a much less economically class mobile society today, than we were fifty years ago. And there is boatloads of very well done social stratification research that verify this.

Again blanket ideology as the guide to economic policy is foolish. There are truths to different economic ideologies - and wise policy addresses those - but is not so wedded to one ideology that it does not address the concerns/downfalls/etc of that ideology that only through a different lens (eg another ideology) the flaws can be seen.

Sorry to end it there - have a good evening!

So, patiently (I can't emphasize that word enough) I slowly INFORM her and educate her as to what in the hell is going on around us. I tell her that if she is an American with AUTHENTIC American values and beliefs that she will at least open her mind to truth. I always make sure that everything I pass on has credible sources and that it's factual. IMO, that is an important element of persuasion. The crucial element. Credibility is key.

It's been an interesting couple of months...she can't ignore the evidence. I believe that in her heart of hearts she may want to (people don't like being duped) but with reality and new-found knowledge staring her in the face, she has to accept TRUTH as the answer. Her common decency can accept nothing less.

Thanks for sharing your insight with us! It's an invaluable gift.:patriot: IMO, it doesn't matter where you were POLITICALLY in the past. What matters is that you are here NOW and that you have joined millions of concerned Americans in this fight to save our democracy! Welcome!


"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."-Albert Einstein

peace.

their ass, or both. No exceptions.

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I don't agree with the SCOTUS decision. That being said why are communities having to turn to these desperate measures to get some tax revenue? Because the rich and the corporations are not paying there fair share, and because our financial health was sacrificed to war profiteers.

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that what is good for the wealthy is good for all of us, becomes most obvious.

It is good for the corporation to get that property at the lowest price possible - and thus since they are wealthy what they do with it must be to produce wealth for them ergo per the philosophy - it must be good for us as well. (just extending the thinking - but I most certainly don't buy the original premise... to blindly randian for me.)

P. Owens has a track record of siding with corporations against individual interests. I would be very shocked if she did NOT support the SCOTUS ruling.

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We were talking about class and he said he was going to shoot straight from being poor to rich by studying to be a nurse, so it was okay to be a republican. He didn't realize that republicans would replace highly paid and trained nurses with monkeys or robots if they could figure out how to get away with it.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

like the one I speak of in post #63? It has certainly "worked" as far as my mom goes. (Dad's now registered as an Independent)

peace.

Plain and simple...

insight. Incite is a verb, as in incite to riot. This is not something that spell check can pick up. Sorry to be annoying.
Thanks for the analysis; although I'm not sure we can make much of a dent in either group. Business people should care that their children may end up with crushing taxes and a much diminished country but the seem not to care. The paranoid poor (and middle class) have been trained that liberals are evil liars so they might be hard to convince of anything. Both groups might change in the face of a depression but who wants to go through that with them just to be right?

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so that we can add interest payments into those taxes. Unless you get most of your income from investments, you should be scared shitless at you future tax bill.

you're exactly right.

They can't blame anyone but themselves, because they vote with a Party that chides the poor for not working hard enough. The poor Republicans paste their $500.00 cars with jingoistic stickers all about being a Republican, all the while they're being screwed daily by the people that they voted in. They are the most pathetic.. the working poor republicans and the just plain poor republicans.

Republicans out of control are always fascists. Democrats out of control are always socialists. There is no dividing line, when one goes too far on either scale the entire slide falls down.

Here now we're back at Mussolini days and need to boot them out.....Just as if it had gone too far to the other side of the scale.

I had a similar experience. I was liberal in high school, but raised by rabid Republicans.

I went to work for aerospace; thought the military-industrial complex thingie was great - until I experienced it (and the smirks, and arrogance).

What changed my life IMMEASURABLY was becoming a social worker in 1993 (I was 35). I had always been very socially liberal - but becoming aware of what different groups go through awakened my humanity in a very special way. Started voting for Democrats, egistered as a Dem; never looked back.

So, I relate.

Do you mean insight? They're incited enough. ;)

"... into the Republican mind,"

Where is that, exactly?

n/t

The "ignorance is bliss" attitude seems rampant amongst the Republican majority up here, but it's sounds better coming from a former Republican...

The reich wing has created the illusion that they are the party of personal wealth (the bling-bling) and everyone who aspires up to that goal signs on for the ride to the top. Just like gangsta rap.. it's all about the money... and people tend to ignore how they got there. Become a reich winger and you can live a prosperous and priviledged life.

In fact the whole reich wing scheme is fueled by primal fears and emotions.... mostly fear - fear of a common (unseen) enemy, fear of other religions and races, fear of foreigners and immigrants. It's facism 101 really. It's amazing that some of "the public" react positively... but in the absence of any alternative.... what do you expect? Ultimately, people look at our two sides and wonder.. "what's in it for me?"

So ONE THING Democrats could be working on is building aspirational values into our party's DNA. We all know we are the good party, the smarter party.... but why should someone who's not a democrat today aspire to be one tomorrow ???? What's our answer?

Republicans represent the wealthy and corporate interests. Are you a wealthy person? Are you a corporation? If not, you best find some new representation, because this party will never represent you, or your best interest. Democrats are the party of human interest, Republicans are the party of corporate interest. Pick your representation wisely.

the reich wing attracts all the people who aspire to be rich and powerful.
That's pretty strong stuff that draws suckers as well as a million dollar lottery ticket

I think we need defuse the myth that the reich is the way to riches
(as well as answer the question... what are the benefits of being a democrat)

1. Peace minded people.
2. Value and respect for all people.
3. Value of "real" personal freedom.
4. Priority of education for our young.
5. Priority of a clean environment.
6. Value of math and sciences.
7. Priority and value of social programs that promote well being for all.

My sister and brother-in-law both voted for Bush because "They're a Republican family." Both nieces voted for Bush. One still lives at home with mom and dad. The other lives about 10-15 mins away. My nephew supported Kerry in this past election. He also lived about two hours away from mom and dad due to his previous job. My brother-in-law complains about the Democrats wanting to raise his taxes. Unfortunately, he doesn't see this deficit being paid off by his grandkids.

Fear is the one tool used most in all societies to keep power.

It's a way of life in the area I live. They even call themselves "red-necks" and talk about Republican issues from the 1980's as if they were still relevant! The "ignorance" is actually a highly desired state of consciousness and is a good way of being popular with the woman who like their "simple men". If you go to school and actually enjoy talking about what you learned you will be shunned - unless you can make it to the favored Republican "employer" status. Once you are the business employer, then they are busy kissing your ass for monetary consideration. If you don't believe me, I'll give you the addresses of several establishments in this area where you can listen to the local people openly "bragging" about their "red-neck" lifestyle - and EVERY LAST ONE OF 'EM IS A REPUBLICAN!! There are Dems but they sit quietly and we know who we are - we just roll our eyes a lot up here because we are often :rofl: at their ignorant comments! I find it kind of amusing actually - and I don't need my brain at all - very relaxing :D

In a good sign of things, I almost never hear any defense of Dumbya any more - he's not "popular" any more so they are letting him rot on the vine...

1) Still under the misguided belief that simply 'working hard' will bring you great success, eventually.
2) Exactly where the corporate machine wants you, and short of winning the lottery, you're there forever.

This thread is why I read DU. NO flame war (*Note deletion of "Travis" postings..), reasoned and intelligent discussion, and I really learned something.

Thanks to all - esp. converted, from this relative newbie, for a contribution to my understanding, and a rewarding morning catching up on DU!

rarely read. The question is how to make them feel safe in a rapidly changing world. Most of us probably have that 'thing' that allows us not to be afraid of change. What if you don't have that 'thing', whatever it is.

1. Religious right, obviously

2. Old school, some what moderate Repubs that actually believe and demonstrate fiscal conservatisim, strong defense, actaull moral values that have value to many, etc. This is a rare and dying breed though, it is being eaten alive by its own party and may all ready be extinct.

BTW - I agree with your post, the key is to severe ties with the second group and the first then educate them over to our side. Culture is a living thing and can be evloved in our direction with massive amounts of work.

My problem has been getting them to see their fear, ignorance and intollerance.

Still around them, in fact. Everything you said is absolutely true.

Just a few days ago. Glad you put it into words so nicely.

Why isn't it obvious that it is privileged group one that group two most has to fear?

Tax breaks for sending jobs overseas, running up the debt so the rich can have tax breaks; wars that the poor will fight; allowing corporate interests to write their own regulations, so you pay more for drugs, have no protection against pollution, no redress in the courts for injuries; reduced funds for college and training; no minimum wage increases

Could go on and on and on, of course. Isn't that little more frightening than gay people getting married? Isn't that a little more likely to happen than the mean liberals taking their guns away?

Don't, don't, don't understand it at all