Mindlessly violent video games

seem to be wrapped in the same conundrum as many vapid "R" rated movies. That is, their gratuitous violence and lack of literary merit are geared to the minds of children, but the age restrictions ostensibly limit their use to adults, or at least those of a certain age. So who is the market for these things? I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence that otherwise intelligent adults play these games, but I can't believe that very many fully-functioning grownups will spend their time and money this way. Just as with the movies, they're forbidden fruit to children who have it mostly wrong about what it means to be an adult.

Help me out here: Are you willing to give the Free Market unfettered access to children and legal-age people who are still grappling with maturity, or does our government owe something to the process of growing up and learning to care for ourselves and others?

owes a free education, and hopefully ensure adequate nutrition. Parents are responsible for the rest.

.....there is a shred of humanity or pure morality left in our society to help us along. If we do have a society, that is. This is exactly the nerve the crafty, vicious Right electrified to get through to Middle America--their insincerity notwithstanding. Regulation is scary, but so is trying to raise teenagers as caring human beings in this disjointed trash culture, and working on solutions is everyone's responsibility because it will become everyone's problem.

labels on the packages.

If you live and go to school in a vacuum, that's fine. And although the "mature" violent game is supposedly geared to adults, the fact is that it's mostly teen-aged kids who are the major marketing target, like most movies & music, and these are expert marketers. Censorship is not good, but neither is desensitization to violence and the trivialization of sex.

that the government take responsibility for keeping children away from sex and violence in place of their parents?

Which books, movies, tv shows, etc., shall the government ban, for the "sake of the children"?

I proposed that there is a problem. And it's not just because there are ineffectual and unconcerned parents. I don't think anybody's going to come and take the right to sex and violence away from anybody. I worry that the children, as a culture, will become insensitive to it, maybe already are. And we, as a culture, might regret that.

but I, and others, have proposed that the solution to the problem lies with parents, not the government, and people here disagree.

So if not the parents, who?

Has anyone suggested otherwise?
In fact, I may be the only person here who thinks our society-entertainment industry, whatever- should back us up a little more. I don't think it's going to grow a conscience when it can make so much money, and I don't favor any more censorship than we already have, which is considerable, so I don't know what the solution is. It may not matter anyway because my kids are nearly adults and they are great kids, and everyone else is obviously able to parent just fine autonomously.

I run a small company, I write RPGs, paper and pencil. Future Sci Fi setting...

Now here is the trick and I have contended this at industry level, it is also my responsibity as a pop culture producer to use common sense and not add scenes of gratuitious sex and violence.

Now many of my fellow company presidents have in the recent past, started to add chain mail bikinis and bimbos, since they do sell. I contend that they dehumanize women... and as a consumer these days I refuse to consume the product from these companies.

The point I am making is that yes it is the responsibilty of parents to raise their kids.. but it is also the responsibility of the producers to use some common sense and pull back from sex, violence and all that. Will the producers do it? No, American companies see business as a war, with winners and looers and their only responsiblty is to their investors. Until this fundamental reality changes the only way you will get produces to actually do their duty... will be regulation. Don't expect that from teh pro business environment we are developing, I fear this will only happen after we, as a society, pay a price....

So yes it is the job of parents, but is also the responsibilty of those who at times produce, market and sell this cool stuff... watch any day a Frontline Special called the Marketing of Cool, if you truly want to be scared.

That was a refreshing post that speaks to more than one product or industry. Hopefully there are more who share your ideals.

and IF I ever produce a game meant for an adult market it will be clearnly marked as such

Then why the hell don't they devote their time to getting out of Iraq instead of focusing on some cartoon based game rated for adults where people can shoot imaginary cartoon characters and have sex with them?

WTF cares about this?

I am a hell of a lot more worried about my kid getting inundated by right winged totalitarian whacko drivel spouted by the current reich wing than I am about some imaginary game.

Maybe we should take all dolls, action figures, toy animals and every other product that could be used to simulate violent or sexual acts off of the market-- just in case *the children* decide to pretend that the figures are engaging in a sex act or killing each other.

This IMO is a ridiculous waste of time on the part of Hillary Clinton and others--there are far more important things at stake currently than this.

?

This isn't directed at you personally.

BUT...

It reeks of hypocracy for anyone to protest violence in Iraq and then spend significant amounts of time playing games that simulate violent activities.

Your Subconcious Mind does NOT make the distinction between time spent doing Play Violence and time spent doing Real Violence.

You feed your Subconcious Violence and she'll mirror that violence in the world around you either in the immediate vacinity or at a distance.

If you want Peace in the world, then tend to your own personal environment first.

I didn't grow up in an era where we learned to use computers before kindgarten--I find playing these games extremely tedious because I can never get past about the first two minutes without having to start over again, so it just isn't something I bother with.

But to answer your remarks

NEWS FLASH: WAR IN IRAQ IS NOT A VIDEO GAME FEATURING PRETEND PEOPLE

Things are scary, you need us.

I don't think the amish have too many problems raising kids (although there are some bad apples even there I have seen).

My 2 nephews and niece are teens and have no clue what most of the 'trash' culture is as they are homeschooled, have no cable, and don't always listen to latest music (though they do see a lot of movies). Their parents control their intake and regulate it fine without someone else getting involved.

I am not sure of all the answers, but I would prefer that they start with the parents and families and stay there. Imperfect as it can be it is not a central body dictating morals and values to the masses.

We, the citisens and taxpayers pay the bill for public education.

But there can be nothing worse than the US citizenry going through life fat, dumb and drunk. So I say education is worth the taxes -- for the public good.

Do you want to ban R rated movies because parents can buy their children a ticket?

Same thing.

not thaat I buy them very often, i usually wait until they're obsolete and virtually free.. but they are kind of fun from time to time.

as far as comparing them to your vaunted "literature", I submit the following:

The Count of Monte Cristo
Les Miserables
The Prince
The Inferno
The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire
The Art of War
The Bible
The Gulag Archipelligo


to name a few...all far more "violent" than my little alien shooter program. Oh yeah, and here's a newsflash...IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEM, DON'T BUY THEM! Which is a paraphrase of what I say to the antiabortionist mob.

I enjoy first-person shooters and other video games. I don't need Hillary to tell me what I can and cannot do for entertainment.

Yeah, some of the games I play probably aren't suitable for kids. Neither are a lot of other non-game forms of entertainment.

And I'll echo ironman202: the bible is one of the most violent, genocidal books I've ever read. My silly little video games are much less likely to incite violence than a violent book that some people call "holy." (See the past 2000 years of history.)

since time in memorium...

If you don't care for the warrior god of Genesis, then turn to the prophetic books of the second and third cycles and you'll encounter a deity who loved widows and orphans; if you are turned off by the cryptic language of St. John's Revelation, then take in the erotic verse of Song of Songs; if you are disturbed by the reverence payed to Samson, look instead to the four chronicles of the Prince of Peace.

The Bible is a supreme meditation on all that is beatuous and base; the creators of the Grand Theft Auto series, on the other hand, were intent on celebrating only the latter.

There is no comparison between the two.

It's not central to the plot, but you can play the game that way, and in fact you have to in order to "complete" the game.

The amount of lawbreaking players undertake in the GTA series is as much a reflection of the players' psyches as it is any "agenda" from Rockstar Games.

The bible was written by numerous authors. Some of them were bent on destruction; some were not. The people who programmed GTA were bent on entertainment. They really didn't intend their game to be taken literally and used to decimate populations of people. On the other hand, some of the "scriptures" were used as a justification of genocide.

In truth, GTA doesn't do anything for me. However, I do play other violent video games. I have never struck out in violence against anyone. Ever. I was much more violent as a fundamentalist who believed scripture.

I know a psychologist who uses video games to help kids work out their aggression in a way that won't hurt actual people. He wouldn't use something like GTA, but he says that allowing the kids to slay goblins, etc., really helps.

As for myself, sometimes it helps to take out my aggression on nazis in Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory...or on TIE fighters in X-Wing Alliance...or on monsters in Serious Sam. I don't have anything to apologize for. I'm not hurting anyone, whereas, belief in a genocidal book has hurt people down through the generations.

1. Which "genocidal book" are you referring to? After all, the King James Bible is a treasury of sorts, containing over five dozen books. Surely your animus is directed toward those passages in the Epistles that defend slavery and not toward, say, the Gospel of St. Matthew, which served as the key inspiration for abolitionists and many civil rights workers? I doubt Rev. Martin Luther King and Rev. Ralph Abernathy would have deemed the Bible, in its entirety, a "genocidal book."

2. I'm not suggesting you apologize for anything, nor do I believe in censorship. And though I find FPS and war simulations to be vile, I readily admit that several of my favorite films ("The Godfather," "Jaws," "Taxi Driver," "Night of the Living Dead") are quite visceral, and better for it.

its a contradictory piece of fluff designed to pacify and control those that cant think for themselves

please don't denigrate high quality video game violence by comparing it to the violent drivel espoused in an ancient fairy tale

The following are people who used the Bible as a moral guide. Alas, they couldn't "think for themselves." I guess their time was occupied with such matters as enlightening humanity.


David Walker
Rev. Lovejoy
Frederick Douglass
Sojourner Truth
William Lloyd Garrison
Theodore Parker
John Brown
Harriet Tubman
Fyodor Dostoevesky
Leo Tolstoy
A.J. Muste
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Dorothy Day
Rev. Martin Luther King
Pope John XXIII
Fathers Daniel and Philip Berrigan
William Sloane Coffin
Sen. Robert Kennedy
Sen. George McGovern
Archbishop Oscar Romero
Archbishop Desmond Tutu


P.S. Don't worry, I won't explain who half of these people are; I'd hate to cut in on the time you spend plumbing the depths of Final Fantasy XXXX for moral truth.

Not sure what your point is here, other than to try and inject some thoecracy into a discussion about why video games should not be on the list of censored items.

Ladyhawke made an assertion that the Bible is a "genocidal book."

And you posited that the Bible is for people who can't think for themselves.

I challenged both of your arguments, and thus far, you have not offered a fair rebuttal to my list of 15+ visionaries who, according to you, were misguided in using the Bible as a resource for morality and ethics.

The bible bit is an effective argument. Do people want to ban the bible? Heck, KIDS read that thing every day!!!

would read any of the books that you mention, but my sad experience is that very, very few teenagers in this country are reading much of anything. I didn't complain about violence (it's a significant part of human experience), I complained more about mindlessness, which shouldn't have to be so widespread.

or any other paper and pencil game... oif the amount of readying and math involved woudl actually please you

There are already a lot of RPGs that use the Dungeons and Dragons rules that are already on the PC. Some of them require the reading of a lot of dialogue as well. If I remember right even Knights of the Old Republic used DnD rules.

PnP vet here, that grew up in the middle of the Bible belt so had to endure hearing all that crap when I was forced to church every sunday.

You're right though, I think should bring back Pencil games. I remember hwen an entire section of the book store was dedicated to them and modules. But these days would be hard placed to find a few shelves.

I love the games I play today, but I also find myself missing out on the whole imagination that went into creating your character and playing and really developing that character (let alone the math skills heh).

I love both, but if I had to pick one, I'd pick the Pen and Paper instantly. Why? Because for a modest start up cost of a few books..you can have endless adventures with your friends. We started a new D&D 3.5 campaign over a year ago and so far have over 120 hours play time. We all have busy schedules and children but manage to play at least every other week, if not every week.

GTA and shooters are fun and all, but nothing beats sitting around a table with friends having fun together, in the same room, and interacting directly.

and things such as incest and rape.

:shrug:

they are all equally boring to a 17 and under crowd so parents are safe.

;-)

we need to write a gangsta Rap opera.

and take them to a performance with those supertitles up on the wall in English. They'll be amazed at the R rated content.

And meanwhile hear some kick-ass music. It's all good.

You should see teenager's faces when you tell them the basic plot outline of Oedipus Rex. They go positively wide-eyed, get grossed out, and suddenly want to read it. LOL.

From the Bible to the popular song,
There's one theme that we find right along.
Of all ideals they hail as good,
The most sublime is Motherhood.

There was a man, oh, who it seems,
Once carried this ideal to extremes.
He loved his mother and she loved him,
And yet his story is rather grim.

There once lived a man named Oedipus Rex.
You may have heard about his odd complex.
His name appears in Freud's index
'Cause he loved his mother.

His rivals used to say quite a bit,
That as a monarch he was most unfit.
But still in all they had to admit
That he loved his mother.

Yes he loved his mother like no other.
His daughter was his sister and his son was his brother.
One thing on which you can depend is,
He sure knew who a boy's best friend is!

When he found what he had done,
He tore his eyes out one by one.
A tragic end to a loyal son
Who loved his mother.

So be sweet and kind to Mother,
Now and then have a chat.
Buy her candy or some flowers or a brand new hat.
But maybe you had better let it go at that!

Or you may find yourself with a quite complex complex,
And you may end up like Oedipus.
I'd rather marry a duck-billed platypus,
Than end up like old Oedipus Rex.

But they're not. They don't care about the score, the singing, the story or the subtlety. Violence is not the problem, if it's in context. The problem is that in a goddamn video game, the conclusions are already drawn. If any significant number of young people in our country EVER attended the performance of an opera, or studied it in school, or listened to it on the iPod, I would understand your comparison. But the fact is that the modern American literary experience is vacuous bullshit like a video game or a TV "reality show."

and art form, has been with us forever. And back in the day, many operas were looked at with the same scorn people reserve for violent video games today. I mean, Wagner, for crying out loud.

wife is their sister so they can marry rich people then extort money out of them. what kinda shit is that.

the book, they make the imagery come to life.

Video games do not require any such Creative input from the Players' Imagination.

Also, violence is a part of life.

Literature helps us gain perspective and develop a philosophy to deal with violence.

You read a story and reflect, in your mind, on its lessons and meaning.

You play a video game over and over, reinforcing the violence with physical input.

There's little 'meaning' for your mind to glean from that... other than the impression (true or false) that you're practising for actual violence.

Literature helps us deal with Violence by presenting it in a way that maintains a 'distance'.

Video games are in your face and physical.

they are ... the 18-25 yuong adult, mostly male in its primary market and all the way to 40 in the secondary market

I write Paper and Pencil games and some fo the games we do put the ... warning graphic.

This is the job of the parents, who should know what their kids are playing

This is also the job of the industry, and I will submit some in the industry are not reponsible and try to sell things they should not to minors (Vampire the Masquerade series from White Wolf in the PnP comes to mind... it is an adult game, but it is still marketed to late teens)

This is partly the problem with stores who sell kids things like GTA.

And yes this is partly the job of the government since the industry seems at times incapable of policing itself

I work in the gaming industry and trust me I see this as a far more complex issue. The need for any government intervention woudl go away if parents, designers and stores did their job.. when they do, call me back.

And by the way, there is plenty of art in these games... try MAYA any day of the week, or Z-Brush, to model a character, if you are into the computer side, or pick up any Weiss and Hickman and try to tell me there is no art there.

is being created for video games. My 14 year old son has been 3D modelling for more than a year now, and, pardon my mompride, he's pretty good.

Hopefully he'll have a job in your industry someday. That would make him very happy.

He's been playing, and beating, video games since he was 2. Yes, 2. But we have carefully screened the games he plays and kept him away from anything inappropriate.

It's called parenting. And we take it seriously. Too bad so many other people don't.

I've read your posts where you hold the stores and gaming companies responsible as well and your points are well made. But I always send it back at the parents. If I can do my job, so can everyone else.

Pardon my rant. Carry on.

remember contracts... they are critical

And I hold everybody responsible, from the game company to the store, to the parents.... this is in many ways a team effort and everybody has a job to play here.

So no rant.... as you said, you do your job, I do mine... and when all of us do it, the kids are better for it. After all it does take a village to raise a child

It's a tough world kids are growing up in these days.

The government stipulates that the cover show the age range the game is appropriate for... that's enough for me.

Well, actually... if a clerk can legally sell a "T" or "M" game to minors, that I would agree needs to change...

carding, end of discusion

but that would have to be implemented for movies as well. I don't understand what's the big fuss over video games when films have similar content. Both industries have pretty clear and understandable ratings systems. I view it as laziness if parents aren't looking at them.

However, if video games and movies, like say cigarretes and alcohol required a person to be carded I see no problem. That way adults would still have access.

But I do think it's up to parents to monitor when and how much their kids are playing games, period.

Personally, I prefer more challenging games like Simcity and Civilization. Those "shoot everything that moves" games get old really fast.

huh, never heard of that one. where can i pick it up? ;)

:)

so many fps's, so little time.

that and ROTT.

The responses so far are pretty much libertarian and "hands-off." I wish all parents would take an active role in what information and entertainment their kids are consuming, especially as we move into a post-literate, neo-iconographic age. Unfortunately, many parents don't take this role, and the Free Market gladly steps in.

Maybe I'm just finally too old to rock and roll.

;(

juvenile.

I like to cut loose and blow some steam with some friends on occasion.

I find rooting for sports to be purile and immature but if that's your thing go for it...who am I to tell you how to spend your free time in a "mature manner."

talking about the huge fraction of young people in this country who can't read, and can't find North America on a world map. Those chickens will come home to roost, and all the best video games on the market won't solve the ensuing problems.

you did say in your original post that these games were the amusement of kids or adults grappling with maturity. So in fact you did take aim at adults who may choose to play them. You have now shifted your stance to blame video games for kids not being able to read or point to North America on a map. I would like to know how a video game is the cause of illiteracy. Or, could your beef really be about something else and the video game crisis of the moment is just a convenient place to lay blame?

grappling with maturity. I'm sure that many responsible adults choose to play these games, although I know they can be serious time-wasters, having worked all the way through Myst and Riven myself. My point is that text, and context, are what gives life meaning, and I'm not convinced that "virtual reality" is an acceptable substituted for those.

some of the wonders of freptardism that I have encountered on various game boards.

I've got stories...sad stories about experts on everything who've neither left their home town nor have anything near a education.

You should have said that in your opening post instead of what you did write.

From what I've read a lot of children who grew up playing videogames actually end up being smarter. If you haven't already noticed before videogames were mainstream they were the domain of some pretty nerdy people. I'm one of them myself. :)

"The best example of brain-boosting media may be videogames. Mastering visual puzzles is the whole point of the exercise - whether it's the spatial geometry of Tetris, the engineering riddles of Myst, or the urban mapping of Grand Theft Auto.

The ultimate test of the "cognitively demanding leisure" hypothesis may come in the next few years, as the generation raised on hypertext and massively complex game worlds starts taking adult IQ tests. This is a generation of kids who, in many cases, learned to puzzle through the visual patterns of graphic interfaces before they learned to read. Their fundamental intellectual powers weren't shaped only by coping with words on a page. They acquired an intuitive understanding of shapes and environments, all of them laced with patterns that can be detected if you think hard enough. Their parents may have enhanced their fluid intelligence by playing Tetris or learning the visual grammar of TV advertising. But that's child's play compared with Pokémon."

- http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.05/flynn_pr.html


There are a lot of other articles I've read that actually provide more evidence of this.

not on a video game geared towards adults.

Also, just an fyi: video games are not the sole reason kids can't read and can't find anywhere on a map. I gamed growing up, still game, and my brain is fine, thanks.

I read more good, too.

It doesn't "brainwash" me, it doesn't "sedate" me. I know what's going on in the world, or I wouldn't BE here.

I get really tired of the old stereotypes being pissed all over me and my hobby. I help people, I've held the same good-paying job in satellite broadcasting for the last five years, I pay my child support - why do I always have to hear "loser" or "living in your parents' basement" bullshit just because I game?

It gets old.

We already do allow the "free market" unfettered access to kids. Just take a peek at one commercial break on a Saturday morning about 10am, or look at the vending machines in their schools, or the demo games at the mall...
Forbidden fruit is an attraction simply because it's forbidden. How many times did we all buy/say/do something because it would piss our parents off?
The problem is that these games sell, and I mean sell like you wouldn't believe! So every developer worth his salt is trying to "out-gore" the competition. The game makers are not in it to be responsible stewards of society, but to make as much money as they can. The only way for the market to correct this is for sales of these to drop.

I am willing to, and have in the past bought these "mindless" games. And I am an adult with 2 children. 1 an adult himself and the other almost an adult. Because I choose to play what you call a mindless game does not mean I am an adult "still grappling with maturity". That is a pretty broad insult you flung out there based on YOUR personal opinion. The government has no business in having a hand in the process of my children growing up and learning to care for themselves and others. That is MY job. And the job of every other parent out there. If there is a game you don't want your kids playing, don't allow them to play it. Same for television or movies. If it's not appropriate for your child, don't let them watch it.

We, as a society will never be able to force all parents to be the "right kind" of parents. And when you think of it, who's definition of, right kind of parent do we use? What is good for one is not good for another. You can no more force someone to raise their kids as you see fit any more than you can force the republicans to accept that gay marriage is not going to cause them to implode.

buying and playing and watching what they want, without their parents knowing or caring. These children will grow up to make decisions of greater and greater gravity. I seem to be alone in my alarm, but hey, Rush Limbaugh tells me the Free Market and the ingenuity of the American people will take care of all problems.

On edit: This is in response to post #14. For some reason it didn't post that way.

there are scores of kids out there playing them without their parents knowing or caring. Just the same as when I was a kid I was wearing clothing my mother expressly forbid me to ever wear and sneaking out of the house to go party at night. I snuk out and wore it anyway. Sometimes I got caught and felt the wrath of my mom for disobeying her but sometimes I got away with it. Like I said above (edited in ) We will never have a society where all parents are parenting as we think they should. And it's a given, there are parents out there that simply don't care what their kids do. Then there are those that do but their kids sneak it anyway, just as kids will do.

So tell me this, if the government steps in and bans all games except pong so kids are not exposed to the "mindlessness" then will we have to also include all movies and television that could possibly be offensive to anyone in the country, then will we have to move on to radio and print. Where should the policing begin and end? It is distressing to me that so many are so willing to give the government the power to allow/disallow something that they are personally in agreement with. But I wonder, do these people realize what a huge opening they are willing to give to force others to conform to their personal opinions? Be very careful what you wish for. You just might get it.

because the market has given people what they want: comfort and convenience at a cheap price, despite the degradation of the air and water.

The market also gives people the instant gratification of movies and games with very little literary value; is the resulting pollution of the mental environment very different from the pollution of our physical one?

because we can measure environmental pollution, and there's near unanimity of agreement about the definition of pollution.

"mental pollution" is purely subjective, and I don't want any do-gooder deciding FOR me what constitutes a pollutant. Is it the videogame I play? The shows I watch? The books I read? No thanks...

I'll take responsibility for what goes into my head, thank you.

And I noticed no one was willing to give an answer to where the policing should begin and end. It all boils down to a matter of opinion. I am quite certain that I have opinions on what should and should not be. But I do not feel that because I think it it should be forced upon the entire country.

Pollution is something that harms EVERYONE. It is an objective threat to our physical health, when toxins are released in our water, or in our air.

Who considers what is "mental pollution"?

According to the Pope and the RR, Harry Potter is.

Video games are art. Sure, some don't meet the definition of what many would consider art, but it's protected (or should be) as free expression.

There has simply been no proven study between violence in society and video games. The US isn't the only country that plays video games. Japan and Europe do as well, yet their societies are MUCH less violent.

I'm talking about lack of context, about mindlessness, about a simple diversion having become the chief literary experience in the lives of countless young people.

If you don't agree that the State can and should make policy that seeks to improve literacy and thoughtfulness, fine. But historically, the government has built interpretive centers rather than titty bars, and funded arts programs instead of opium dens. Let's check back on this 50 years from now.

of attacking video games and making them the root of all evil why don't you address the fact that the schools in this country are going down the toilet. My child's school has NO money budgeted for the drama/arts department. We have to raise the money ourselves to put on a play. If you are really talking about literature and fine arts and culture then put the blame where it belongs. Before kids can know it they have to be exposed to it. The video industry did not bankrupt the school system in this country. The video industry can not realistically be blamed for the lack of education. This is a problem well beyond video games. If you provide the children of this country with nothing but XXX then you can expect that is just what they will do.

I completely agree. The fault lies with ass hole politicians and their unwillingness to properly fund public education.

And for the record, my child has seen Carmen, phantom of the opera goes to the symphony, has been in many plays, sings in the acapella choir, the show choir, and was an all region honors choir member and placed 3rd at state with the marching band and in AP honors classes. But on the weekends, he plays video/computer games.

to teach the kids art and drama. There's a strong Libertarian streak here, which I guess is a good thing, but I must be more of a socialist in these matters. I think public policy can encourage better choices in school, and better choices at the video store as well.

one minor disagreement.

I have taught for a quarter century and have watched video games become the fad that they are. And for all these years, many of us teachers have asked why the video game manufacturers have not made the games more educational. Couldn't they sneak a few math problems in there that the player has to solve before they can shoot the bad guys or drive the car? How hard can that be?

And I do blame video games and lazy parents for the fact that kids don't do homework like they used to.

You, the government, the local preacher?

What regulations should the government put in place though beyond requiring that store shouldn't sell these games to children?

However, the right to make games like this shouldn't be infringed upon. If I, as a responsible adult, wish to buy this game, it should be my right.

Now, do I think children should be exposed to these games? No. Do I myself particularly find these games a good use of time? Not necessarily. I personally wish more people (including those in my age and gender group, which is the group these games are targetted at), would spend more time reading up on current events, politics, history, and culture...

But I don't know what the government can do other than spending more money on early education (elementary and otherwise) and the arts (which I complete support). I also think the culture should change where parents would rather spend more time with their child rather than making some extra money, where a parent uses a TV and a video game system as a baby sitter.

But that's a different issue altogether. It has to do with a culture of consumerism that has eaten away at much of society.

If you haven't played an actual videogame that has received a lot of critical acclaim for its storyline and gameplay then you have no room to talk about whether or not videogames are mindless. I'm telling you that there are a lot of games that have better stories than what Hollywood churns out to the point where some people would rather play a videogame than watch movies. Already videogames are making more money than Hollywood films.

a very good use of my time, compared to most other things I could've done. And I already have a formal education, unlike so many of the kids spending 20 or 40 hours a week on games.

One person's mindlessness is another person's joy.

YOU don't get to tell ME what's mindlessness for ME. Don't like the games? Don't play them.

Basically simulated snuff films. They caused some controversy a few years ago when the FBI thought one of them was a real snuff film.

The fact is that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of children are buying and playing and watching what they want, without their parents knowing or caring.

That is still the fault of the parent, not the video game creators.

anything against the distillers of liquor or the growers of weed. I'm just wondering if all the Free Market apologists have a realistic plan to deal with the damage from the neglect of all the parents who are NOT doing the right things.

No.

In case you haven't noticed, since about the 1980's, government isn't really interested in investing anything like time, energy or money into any program which helps out parents and families. It's not the "free market's" responsibility to come up with a plan to 'deal with the damage and neglect of parents who are not doing the right thing"--they're there to make money, since this country chooses to be a capitalistic society. It's naive, almost Pollyanna-ish to even think otherwise.

If you are so upset about things, why haven't you developed legislation for the FTC to address these things?

I don't think we as adults need anyone acting like our parents--treating us all like a nation of 8 yr olds--which, BTW, is the REPUBLICAN's tack--telling us what is or isn't 'acceptable'.

and assist the poor is to "treat us all like a nation of 8 yr olds." Perhaps you can't have Libertarianism one way and not the other.

of mindless violent assholes?

I'd say religion is much more dangerous to a person's development than a video game

and being that I'm in the middle of reading The Da Vinci Code, I'd say that your line of thinking is on the right track.

To answer your question, they are aimed at overgrown children, otherwise known as stupid adults. Of which I must admit to being one from time to time. :)

I see no reason games shouldn't at least give some advisory information that is accurate for parents to judge a game on. It's not like a movie which takes 1.5 -2 hrs to watch to determine it's content. Video games have 40+ hrs to complete the full content. Many have hidden features that are not easy to get into without even more time spent. It would seem any reasonable parent would want reasonably accurate information on the label of the products they buy.

problem is... at times they are sold to peoople they should not like your typical 15 year old buying GTA, who should not buy it until he is 17

The labels also work the same way as movie ratings, they give you an idea of what is in there...

Carding may be a simple solution

the key word in my post was accurate and not label.

if this is marked T, it is for teens, if this is M, this is 17 and above and sexual, violence in content, if this is OL, well 18 and older... if this is E, it is for everyone, pretty mild stufff

They are pretty accurate actually... but you also need enforcement by store employees

is the reason they are having the hearings:)

What is sex and what is violence and what is R and what is Triple X? The propblem is that the distinction between M and Adult is very minor.

Personally, if I had kids, I think I would read enough reviews before allowing them to buy a game, but as a designer I know how easy it is to to mislabel things at times and not on purpose

Waht they truly need is for the SRBN to have the full authority to lable them, as movies are... without any sugestion from the authors... and we need to enforce carding this must come from the industry. This alone will take away much of the wind of them sails... as is we have things taht are far more critical than this

The sex minigame is about as bad as a hard R rated movie. This is what is on the back of the box.

MATURE
Blood and Gore
Intense Violence
Strong Language
Strong Sexual Content
Use of Drugs

The label IS accurate.

is to do a google search on the game name and a plethora of sites will pop up so they can read to their heart's content to find out what the game is about. If they can't take the time to do this, then they are uninterested in what their children are doing.

Sure, their kids MAY be playing GTA behind their backs, but guess what? Kids have tried to get away with whatever they could for as long as there have been kids and parents. We all did it.

If kids cannot read, it isn't due to a videogame franchise that has only been on the market for 7 years. It's due to the fact that funding education has not a priority to the US government since the Reagan era.

I don't know why. But he likes the first-person games (I think that's the term), where you go around with a gun, either in a military type setup or shooting zombies or aliens or whatever. He does this on his PC, not with a particular game system. Really likes the games with fantastic graphics, good storylines, etc.

He's in his late 30s. Doesn't play them too much and doesn't seem to affect him at all. Just a pasttime.

I'm not sure such computer games are "geared to the minds of children," as you say. It would be pretty difficult, from what I've seen of them, for a kid to be able to figure out these games, how to work them correctly and actually play the game worth a damn. They seem to be fairly complicated.

As for gratuitous violence, that's to some extent a matter of opinion. I loved the Kill Bill movies and Fight Club is one of my favorites. Also, I just saw "The Island" at the movie theaters and it has some very intense violent scenes (though I would argue they are not at all gratuitous) and it was fantastic.

:shrug:

Then again my favorite movie is "Howard's End," which has only one mild scene of violence.

I don't believe we need to start acting as mommy to the whole country. Parents need to step up and do their jobs. We monitor what our child watches and plays, always. It's really not that hard to do. We also talk to our child about what is appropriate and what isn't, and why.

to anything other than the springs in your couch, read this

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html

<snip>
It's true that young offenders who have committed school shootings in America have also been game players. But young people in general are more likely to be gamers — 90 percent of boys and 40 percent of girls play. The overwhelming majority of kids who play do NOT commit antisocial acts. According to a 2001 U.S. Surgeon General's report, the strongest risk factors for school shootings centered on mental stability and the quality of home life, not media exposure.
<snip>

Unless PBS is too sensationalistic for you.

but there is still some material that shoudl be kept away from young kids, GTA for example

this issue, they do so to their detriment. I don't think gamers are that politically active, but if this becomes a banner issue it will drive them to the opposition. Me, I'd rather open a vein than vote Republican so I'll just vote Green.

by the way the local game store we are spread across the whole spectrum, though recently I got a friend of mine, who is a Traditional Repubiican readying the PNAC plan, he ain't too happy at what he is readying there

Most of my gamer friends are liberal minded (except for a sick and largely misinformed dedication to capitalism) but, they don't vote. My online friends are apathetic to politics. When the subject comes up it is dismissed as a futile and a waste of time. (The war issue is the exception, everyone has position and is willing to express it.) I am sure of this, if Democrats insist on censoring video games it will cost them votes. But what's a few fringe voters when there is all that centrist money to be milked.

they range from teh extreme right to the extreme left and they all vote. Granted they are the exception, Your friends aer mostly like most of the American people... and if games will make them vote against their interests, then they deserve what they will get, including a draft and an all paid vacation to Fallujah.

By the way, the demos are talknig about it, but being involved in teh industry, it is the Right Wing that is actually carrying out this agenda, not the left. We have been fighting this fighting is evil since the good old days of DnD.

(1975 to be exact)

There were some publications doing some voting advocation pieces directed at gamers during 2004. Playstation Magazine did one in one issue showing all of the people who voted for some legislation against violent games. If they really press it come next election they could make a big difference in the future.

I think I'm going to make that into a bumper sticker.

The old stereotypes no longer apply, people.

There are plenty of "god games" where the player can take the part of Napoleon, Hitler, Alexander the Great, Caesar, or Emperors of alien civilizations, and order invasions, genocides, trade embargos, and whatever else comes to mind. Are you ready to restrict those, too? Why should we let the "Free Market" have unfettered access in appealing to latent megalomania in preference to latent violence?

What comes out is what can be made quick and cheap for the platforms. Platform games are cheaper to make in general (less game play time and using similar engines) and are marketed toward younger gamers (easy to boot and no complex key layouts.)

These are the ones that get the hackles up on certain idiots both right wing and left. As I've mentioned elsewhere it is all about the enforcement of the ratings system coupled with parental responsibility. These are ALL VIDEO GAMES to some less informed people.

Sadly most people don't see the high levels of strategy and beautiful artwork that when combined with good and simple game play create such fantastic games as the Civ. Series, Rome Total War, the Fallout series, and Panzer General.


Couldn't we just ban everything by Derek Smart? :rofl:

btw love the "laughing man" avatar.

I used to play Populous a lot. Loved that one. A few years ago I tried Black and White and absolutely hated it. The first two levels were fun to play. However, I got to a point where I was throwing flaming rocks at villages for three hours. That wasn't fun at all :|

It had a good premise and some cute little stories and animations.

Supposedly the sequel is supposed to be fun. We'll see.

Can't really think of a good "god sim" lately.

I'm not a minimalist, but I generally want to keep the government out of these things. We can't penalize the entire public just because a few parents don't have the courage to tell grade schoolers "No."

He is responsible and very involed in liberal politics. Oh, and he's a responsible adult. I don't like the fact that you smear everybody who plays these games as not "fully functioning."

I have no children
I don't play video games (save for the old Mario 3 and Legend of Zelda on my oooold nintendo)

However--why do the rights of all adults have to be curtailed because of impressionable young children and the ineffective parents who can't control them?

I watch alot of R rated movies. Should those be banned since many kids watch them, and the violence, horror, sex, and language that they contain?

I'm a fully functioning adult. If I want to play an ultra violent, sex-filled video game, I should have that right. The fact that there are parents who want the government to be a babysitter should NOT affect *MY* rights to obtain, view, and participate in various activities.

Here's a clue:

Not everything in life is Kid-Friendly. Nor should it be.

I knew alot of kids growing up that went to bars, used Fake ID's and were able to drink themselves into a stupor several nights of the week. Let's just close down bars because kids can sneak into them.

Let's make the WHOLE of society that we live in entirely PG rated. No more cursing, drinking, driving, talking, having sex, doing things. Adults who have no children, or who have grown children, or who effectively raise their children should all have to capitulate to the needs of those who cannot parent their children in the way that you approve.

Let's do away with alcohol, because kids can get it.
Let's do away with cigarettes, because kids can get it.
Let's not have sex, because kids might do it.
Let's make cursing a punishable offense, even if done in your own home with no children around, because kids might learn to curse.


Let's make everything bright blue and pink and Pollyanna and DIsney and hold hands and sing Kum-By-Ah and never think anything bad (the kids might end up thinking it), or say anything bad (kids might learn to say bad things). And whatever you do, DO NOT parent your kids. Leave it up to the government and teachers. It's perfect, then, because you, as a parent, can absolve yourself of ANY responsibility in that sense. Kid got pregnant--blame the schools (but not YOU for never talking to your kid about sex). Kid mows down classmates with a gun, blame the gunmakers (but don't look into your own household to see what factors may have contributed to an angry, disaffected child).

Nope. Parents have NO responsibility in ANYTHING.

And the other 99% of the population who CAN watch violence, sex, and gore without thinking that it's real, and the parents who effectively monitor what their children do and view, and the people without kids who are no influence upon children can just sit in our chairs and watch re-runs of fucking Lawrence Welk 24 hours a day. Why Lawrence Welk? Why, it's KID FRIENDLY, that's why. And everything on this planet should be KID FRIENDLY to the nth degree.

No more lingeree for mom, or naughty toys for dad. No more playboy, penthouse, porn, videos, music, tapes, DVD's, plays, books, movies. Nope. Nothing that isn't 100% KID FRIENDLY.

That's great. That's just how it should be.

Great rant. And I agree. The more we scream for the government to take over the less responsibility people have. I rank it right up there with suspending a kid for skipping school. You are saying to the kid, you won't go to school so we aren't going to let you stay. Completely idiotic punishment. So much so it's not really punishment at all.

Well, you won't be a responsible parent so we are going to make you less responsible. Makes absolutely no sense at all.

way back in the 1980s

There was this new breed of music coming about. They called it 'rap'. Hip Hop.

There were groups like NWA, and Public Enemy, and later, 2LiveCrew. Their language was vulgar and misogynist. They spoke of guns and killing and drugs and jail. They were gangsters. And they were DANGEROUS!!!

I remember when records (ha!) were put out and they didn't have warning labels on them. I remember when records were put out and they DID have warning labels on them. My copy of "Licensed to Ill" by The Beastie Boys has a parental advisory sticker on it. So does my copy of "Raising Hell" by RunDMC. I remember in 5th grade getting those 2 albums for christmas, and my mother telling me that she got them, despite the warnings, and hoped I would "listen to them responsibly". :shrug: I guess she didn't want me playing with sisscors at the same time I was listening to the tape. I don't know how to 'listen responsibly' but I was supposed to do it.

And I remember when video game consoles were first coming out. I remember PONG, and how it would be the death of a generation. How drop out rates would skyrocket because disaffected youth would spend hours, nay DAYS in front of the console television and play pong until their eyes rotted out.

But something was different back then, something that's lacking now.

It's called the "off" button on the television, and the word "no" in the human vocabulary.

I know, I know...turning the TV OFF is heresy and purely out of the question. Telling a child 'no'..why, that's *SO* 18th century. It's purely cruel to deny a child the right to do anything and everything they want.

I remember my mother, a single parent who worked 3 jobs, taking the time to watch television with me, and answer any questions I had about sex, or situation, or whatever.

I remember her telling me 'no', I could not have 2LiveCrew's album as it wasn't appropriate for someone my age. I remember her telling me no, I couldn't watch Nightmare on Elm Street, even at home, because it wasn't appropriate for someone my age.

She was willing to let me slide once in a while, and watch some boob on tv, or see some ultraviolence, but if she felt it was beyond my level, she'd turn it off, fast forward it, or have me leave the room during the scene.

Was I damaged because of it? Hardly.

Was it extra work on my mom's behalf? Probably in some cases.

But I suppose that she'd tell you that parenting isn't supposed to be easy and trouble free, and if it is, then you're doing something wrong.

Sometimes she'd have to do without seeing a movie that she wanted to see because it wasn't appropriate for me. That's okay. She dealt with it.

She never relied on the government to parent me, or to replace her as a parent, or to help her as a parent. She knew what her responsibilities were, and she knew how she wanted me to be raised. She could not ascertain that the government would do as good as, or better than her in the parenting department. Besides--she chose to have me, she is the one that gets to make the decisions regarding my life through age 18.

I don't think it's a terribly difficult concept.

But then again, the TV wasn't my babysitter. I went outside and played and used my imagination. I wasn't plopped in front of the Sega or TV so that way mommy could take a nap--her nap waited until I was gone, or asleep, or moved out of the house.

Why be a parent if you have no interest in parenting?

I remember that my parents played videogames with me until they couldn't figure out how to play them. The controllers got where there were too many buttons so around the Super Nintendo generation of games they were completely lost. The videogames were in the living room where they could always see what we were playing and they even let us play Mortal Kombat. They thought of it as a silly over the top interactive martial arts film and didn't understand what the controversy was about. When I ripped someone's heart out in the game they'd just laugh their asses off when they saw it.

day I play mortal Kombat with my boys. It really is quite hysterical. We have had evening where we laughed so hard we were crying.

of about 15 years over who can get the highest score on SuperMario3, and who can get the furthest in Legend of Zelda.

I have the old nintendo and games with me, she just bought and old system & the games at a flea market.

But what do I know? I choose not to have children, so therefore, I can never ever express an opinion on stupid laws that are directed at stupid parents and their stupidity and inability to properly parent their children.

There are secret levels in Super Mario 3, only accessible by applying a patch, ala GTA's Hot Coffee mod. Take a peek, just don't let Hillary and Smokin' Joe catch wind of what you're up to :)

http://www.classicgaming.com/tmk/smb3_lost.shtml

is this something that a gaming novice can do? Is this something that would apply to Super Mario 3 Played on regular old tymey nintendos????

When I was ELEVEN. She didn't have a clue what was on it.

I never robbed anyone, drank as a teen, did any drugs, nothing.

I played violent video games as a kid. I was THE nerd who EVERYONE hated. I got beat up for years.

My dad had guns. I knew how to use them young, when my dad would take us shooting while drunk (lucky there were no fatal accidents). I could use a nine when I was nine.

Funny, I never took them to school and shot anyone.

licensed to ill tour.


i was 13.



lo and behold the night of the concert - the evening newspaper has an article stating how the Beasties had a big inflatable penis onstage and dancing girls in cages.


with my old-world conservative immigrant folks, and me being a girl especially - i thought there was no way i was going to be allowed to go after that.


My Dad read the article - looked me dea din the eye and said....


"Do you think you can handle it?"

i said "yeah i think so"

he said "well have fun and don't get in trouble."

Get back to us when you are. The ineffectual, irresponsible parents aren't the ones who are writing in this forum, concerned about the effects of extreme video games, among other things, on young people. And is the concern that they might see violence, "real" or not, and do it? Maybe...it's happened. But mainly, the worry's that they might see so much of it that it no longer has an effect.
That would not be good for anyone.
Parental responsibility is the major factor, but not the only one.

that was just a little pissy don't you think? I am a parent thank you. And I do not discount the views of non parents just because they have no kids. Since when did having kids make one the end all be all of what is best for everyone?

And for the record, some of us responsible effective parents are on the side of those no nothing childless idiots who should have a kid or two so they too can have a clue. <major sarcasm>

Look, that was a response to a letter that espoused a pretty strong viewpoint also. Parents can't do it alone, unless they isolate their kids from society. I've seen a lot of Parent Responsibility in this discussion. The reality is a little more complicated and some folks don't know that until they experience it-especially the teenage years.

experienced the teenage years. Not once but twice. And my kids are just fine and they are of the video game era. To blame video games for the problems of todays youth is just beyond me.

There is a bigger picture here. The fact that the schools are focusing on testing and not educating is one part not to mention the fact they are broke and many no longer even offer the arts or literary subjects. The fact that now life practically requires two parents to work to survive and the kids are not being tended to is another part. The fact that society has taken discipline out of the hands of the schools and the parents is another part. eg- If you spank your kids you are an abuser. If the school paddles they can be sued and the kids these days full well know this and take advantage of their new found upper hand. The fact that society as a whole has this sense of entitlement is part of the problem. The fact that virtually no one takes responsibility anymore because there is always some evil you can blame is part of the problem. And the list goes on and on and on. So, I stand with my conviction that video games are not the root of the problem here. It is just another excuse being made so no one has to take the blame or be personally responsible.

to go way out on a limb here. I have played these evil games such as mortal combat, GTA etc. I can't help but wonder why everyone is so afraid that their kids will see it and "act out" if you will what they have seen in the game. It begs the questions, Did no one teach said child that this is a GAME? Is said child so isolated from the real world that they are not able to distinguish reality from fantasy? I first began to think about this when all the fuss was going on with Judas Priest being blamed for a kids suicide because the kid listened to Judas Priest music and I thought then, I have listened to lots and lots of heavy metal music and I never once contemplated suicide. If a teenage kid was convinced to commit suicide because they listened to a Judas Priest song then that kid had issues other than what kind of music they listened to. To the people who are so terrified that a video game is going to cause their child to start committing random acts of violence because they have become desensitized, to you I ask, Do you not have any faith that you taught your child the difference between reality and fantasy? Do you not think your child is intelligent enough to know the difference? Do you just not have any faith at all as a parent that you taught your child right from wrong and trust them to do so?

My boys are raised, the youngest is 17. They are all functional, productive kids. So I guess, socialist that I must be, I am concerned about the message we're giving all the other kids, some of whom have those bad, unconcerned parents we're hearing about. Mixed messages actually. And I think that parents have it pretty hard these days. and the entertainment industry doesn't help very much. Becoming desensitized doesn't have to mean go out and commit murder. It can also mean a failure to empathize. Sounds innocuous enough until you really think about it.

"parents have it pretty hard these days. and the entertainment industry doesn't help very much"

Parenting is a hard job. SOme parents are really successful and some fail miserably at it. Everyone has an excuse. Boo Hoo. This is nothing new. It's been a hard job from day one. Why does everyone expect some type of help from somewhere? This is just what I was talking about when I said the US has become a society of blameless, irresponsible people always finding something to be the evil cause of why this or that is not their fault. When did parenting become such a hard job that anyone who was a parent needed the "Help" of the entertainment industry or the government or anyone else for that matter? I agree it is of great help when you have a strong support system while raising a child but exactly when did it become the responsibility of the ENTIRE country to make sure each and every child was properly raised? When I decided to have kids I had no fantasies that all of society would conform to make my job as a parent easier. What makes people think that society as a whole should bear some of the responsibility for their choice to become a parent?

Guess what, in 50 years from now, parenting will still be a hard job. Just as it was 150 years ago. What then will become the evil excuse as to why parents have failed at their job of parenting?

the government to do it for you.

The world is filled with things that are not appropriate for children, and yet children still get around to accessing these things.

Alcohol is not for children, yet children drink.
Cigarettes are not for children, yet children smoke.
Cursing is not for children, yet children curse
Violence is not for children, yet children see violence

It's okay if you don't want to parent your children. I mean, I understand how hard it is to monitor what they do and explain to them that some things aren't age appropriate, no matter how much their friends say differently.

I know it takes time out of your busy schedule to put the computer in the family room instead of the kids' room, and how hard it is to deny your child the CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to have a television, with premium cable, in their room.

I know it's hard. DAMN hard.

That's why you want people like me, who don't have children, and people like the others in this thread that can monitor what their children are exposed to, to have to do without, or go through extra hoops to obtain access to adult-only things.

I know it's hard to have responsibility, and that's why you want the government to be the parent and you can just be an innocent bystander while the rest of soceity does the job you want to do.

You're right. I'm not a parent, but I was raised by one who understood full and well that it was HER job to monitor what I watched, not the Government. That it was HER job to instill the values and morals and ethics she thought I should grow up with, not the Government.

And equally, she knew that if she failed, SHE was responsible, not the Government.

Children are going to do alot of things that their parents tell them not to do. That is the essence of childhood--pushing boundaries, establishing independence and individuality.

No parent is going to effectively stop their child from ever seeing, doing, touching, saying, or thinking things they shouldn't.

But they should not look to the government to take their place as parents.

If you don't like what your child is watching on TV, TURN IT OFF
If you don't like the programming choices they have, TURN OFF THE CABLE
If you don't like the video games they're playing DON'T BUY THEM
If you don't like the choices of video games they have GET RID OF THE GAMING SYSTEM.

Don't make *ME* show 45 different forms of ID because I want to watch some humans get blown to bits during 90 mintues of celluloid drivel because Jim and Jane Minivan can't take the precious time out of their day to monitor what their offspring is watching or doing.

Don't like violent video games? Don't buy your kid the system.

Dno't like violent computer games? Disable the settings on the computer that make them playable

Don't like violent TV and Movies? Get rid of the television, or the cable, or the DVD player.

It's really very simple, and calls for no amount of government intervention at any point.

"mixed view" in the lower post area puts it better than I ever could with the "libertarian" post

house.

My kids arent too stupid to tell the diff. between reality and fantasy, which, btw, makes them good atheists.

YOU raise YOUR kids, I'll raise MINE.

by church ladies, censors, and control freaks.

I think the deficit is a bigger threat to my kids than a naked boob or a video game. But as a parent, I am capable of determining what content is appropriate for them and keeping them from the content that is not.

Kids shouldn't be able to buy these games, anyway- that's the purpose of the ratings system already in place.

NT!

All those happy smiling people in re-runs on three channels dressed like June Cleaver or Rob and Laura Petri, sleeping in different beds, canned laughter...UG!

What was REALLY bad was when L Welk was the only thing on except for news (that was truly be the entertainment low point once a week)

Never mind that in the early 70's half of the teenaged kids of our various neighbors were heroin addicts, half of the "moms" in the neighborhood were popping pills to deal with the boredom and most of the dads were taking three hour martini lunches daily--things were only "wholesome" if you were to believe the *moral police* bullshit bandied about by the entertainment media and the government at the time (And that doesn't even figure in the very *unhappy* stuff on the news nightly regarding that little problem called Vietnam)

The crap they were shoveling and the reality of what was going on in this country were two very different things (and to clarify I had great parents and a pretty *normal* childhood)

Every time I receive one of those emails about the good old wholesome days I want to puke...the people that write that crap didn't live through it. It was an extremely confusing time for young children.
(All that happy happy wholesome BS shoved at us while the reality of what was going on in this country was quite another matter altogether)

Hey Government and moral decency people...

Want to create a nation of really F'd up teenagers in a few years?

Go the route of the censorship proponents and idiots in DC and start calling out the decency police so that everything is (like Heddi said in their rant)polyanna and Barney the Dinosaur like.

Raise the little darlings in a bubble and then when they are 13 and they discover that everything they hear about life has been a big fat lie stand back and watch the fireworks.

But Hey... on the plus side that would be one way of booting the Christian Conservatives out of power for several decades, so maybe this would be the way to go!

I play GTA: San Andreas, btw, but only after my kid goes to bed. Until then it's Civilization, Pirates, or my least favorite game of all time: Do Some Paperwork Before Cleaning The Kitchen.

Based on the results of a 2003 consumer survey conducted by the Interactive Digital Software Association (IDSA) and
released at the E3 exhibition on May 14, 2003, today more than one third (41.9%) of frequent American computer game players and more than a quarter (28.5%) of frequent video game players are women. According to the IDSA’s 2002 Consumer Survey, published a year before, in 2002 only 38% of the most frequent PC game players and 28% of the most frequent consol game players were women.

The 2003 research also found that a wide range of age groups are playing computer and video games: half of all Americans age six and older play computer and video games in 2003, while the average age of a game player is 29 years old. In addition, there has been a significant growth of more than 100% in the percentage of gamers who played online games during the last four years: In 2003 more than a third (37%) of most frequent game players say they play games online, up from 31% in 2002 and 18% in 1999. Furthermore, 39% of Americans who own computers used to play games or game consoles report that they play games on mobile devices such as handheld systems, PDAs and cell phones.

In terms of parental attitude towards games in general, nearly two thirds (65%) of parents with children under the age of 18 say that computer and video games are a positive addition to their children's lives. Parents are also more aware to the content of the games their children are playing nowadays. Almost all (96%) parents surveyed who have children under the age of 18 said they are paying attention to the content of the computer and video games their children play.

snip

http://www.conceptispuzzles.com/articles/statistics/computer_gaming.htm

It's kind of a survival-horror deal...

(Nice post, btw.)

I'm 23 and love playing videogames and it doesn't have anything to do with me being childish. It's been bothering me for awhile how little respect people give to this artistic medium while movies can get away with just about anything without the government jumping down their throats. If movies like Irreversible can have 10 minute rape scenes I don't think Grand Theft Auto should be criticized at all. Movies and videogames are both artforms and the government needs to mind their own business when it comes to free expression.

It's pretty clear that you haven't actually played a current videogame all the way through. Games such as Metal Gear Solid have great storylines that rival those of most action films being made today. The epic Final Fantasy games have some incredible storylines as well. Even Grand Theft Auto has a pretty good story along with a lot of social satire to contemplate that a lot of kids aren't even going to grasp when they play it.

to bet that most of the people all up in arms havn't bothered to check out what they are railing against other than the snips of press conferences seen on the news.

and in fact, the core American values - life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.. the idea that the each individual life is sacred - the values of the Enlightenment - are libertarian values - values we should all strive towards.

But the problem is, libertarianism in its raw form often does NOT produce liberty, but the opposite: social and economic darwinism, a system controlled by the powerful and the few .. a system controlled by bullies and thugs.

Its alway easier to view things from the libertarian point of view because we are individuals. We understand things well from the pov of an indivdual. It's far more difficult to see the effect of group tendencies .. the tendency of individuals not exactly acting as a group to nevertheless make choices which hurt other individuals as a group.

The case of video games involves child rearing. Parents (the individual) AND youth culture (the group) are what go into raising a child. And I would take the position that youth culture has a far greater influence on how a child grows up than anything a parent could do.

Now the libertarian argument is to put it all on the parent. But by saying things like "let the parent do their damn job" is essentially telling them to lock their children in the house, homeschool them, turn off the tv, etc. In essence, you are telling them to NOT partake in the culture (the group) .. to NOT enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. IOW, "if you don't like what's going on in the common culture we all share - tough for you - stay home."

I'm not saying I have this worked out one way or the other. But the answer is far more complex than "keep the gub'ment outta mah biness".

And keep in mind, I believe strongly in libertarian VALUES. It's just that I truly have come to see that raw libertarianism often does NOT live up to those values because it COMPLETELY IGNORES the reality that human beings are NOT just individuals, but part of groups, and most group behavior tends to be far more powerful than anything we can fight back against as an individual.

It's not the parent's job to make sure kids are never exposed to anything negative. It is the parents' job to make sure the kids UNDERSTAND that some things are negative and how to distinguish between fantasy and reality.

We need to stop treating kids as if they are all retarded.

Mine aren't.

it's such a tug-of-war for parents--they usually lose if it's about clothes, music, movies, video games, etc.--whatever becomes the social bonding elements of the peer group takes over. I agree--"let the parents do their job" doesn't begin to deal with the issues. It's too big, and it should be a group problem.

I'm absolutely against censorship of any cultural medium because it's always repressive and never accomplishes anything. In fact I've worked against censorship in the past. But I think giving parents some help in limiting exposure to things that are so intensely visually stimulating is not such a bad thing. This argument reminds me of the way gun owners fight any sort of regulation because they're so afraid of losing their guns. Video games are not inherently evil and they are here to stay, so can we relax and make it a little easier for parents and kids to get along on this? How video games, particularly with heavy use, may affect us over time is debatable. Whether violent games makes us less sensitive to violence, or better able to cope with violence even, is an open question. That would take studies across several decades to draw such conclusions.

But we do know that people's perceptions are very different. One child is oblivious to shocking visual imagery, while another child is profoundly affected. Images of sex and violence may be very disturbing to those at the brink of adulthood, particularly for girls but it can set up confusion in boys too. I'd like to see more game options from designers that didn't depend on that so much. For some people, video games are almost meditative--alpha waves and all that. For others, more sensitive to visual input or with a different brain wiring, they may be overwhelming and even stressful. It's not a one-size-fits-all thing.

Consider that every single image, everything we ever see in our lifetimes is stored in our brains.

We have economists and the greatest minds in the world analyzing our free markets. We have debate as to how to correct the failures of those markets. We have solutions for those failures (progressive tax system, regulatory agencies, social saftey net, etc).

The problem is that we don't have anything resembling that type of debate about our free culture. Our debate is usually between religious moralists and civil libertarians - which is not really a good debate as far as dealing with the real issues.

What it all boils down to IMO, is that, the free culture, like the free market has many, many areas where it fails, where it goes against the values of liberty. It's just that with culture there is much less of an objective way to determine where those failures are.

You say: "I would take the position that youth culture has a far greater influence on how a child grows up than anything a parent could do."

If that's the case then it is in part because parents are restricted in what they can do because of economic circumstances. For many families it is pretty much inevitable for both parents to have a job. Time spend on a job is time not spend actually raising the kinds.

So in my view a major factor of what's wrong, what *obstructs* parents "to do their damn job", is indeed a common issue and not an individual issue: it's the economy, and more specifically the system of commerce, wages, taxes etc.

That still leaves plenty responsibility with the parents. For many parent it's just an easy way out to put the kids in front of the TV/video game. And though being tired after a days' work is often a factor there, this is also a matter of individual behavior of parents.

Anyway, i think that banning of certain kinds of content (of film and video games) is not the proper solution.

Then Comic Books, Rock & Roll, Rap, Movies, now Video Games. This is a total non-issue. It's a parents job to know what their kids are watching, reading, and listening to. No one should be allowed to judge for me what has "literary merit". I love Stephen King and Dean Koontz novels, my kids read Harry Potter. I read Star Wars books. None of these could be considered having "literary merit" but they are fun anyway. One man's "literary merit" is another man's "boring shit".

Oh and by the way the average age gamer is somewhere near 30. For every teenager or kid playing there is a 42 year old like me fighting them for the controller. ;)

I can say from first hand experience that GTA : San Andreas is one of the best written games to ever come down the pike. Voice acting from Samuel Jackson, James Woods and Chris Pean among others - it's a high budget, well polished gem of a game. Sure it's violent and full of vulgar language (just like life). Except in life you can't legally mow down a hundred people or more while listening to NWA. It's great, compelling fun!

You mention films as well - I love violent movies too! Horror flicks and violent video games is what I live for. Please, don't lump me and my younger gamers in some landfill of mental retardation.

Just replace the words "video games" with heavy metal or comic books, and your little rant is nothing we haven't heard before. Handwringing about the downfall of civilization because teenagers are into something mindless and vapid is just too cliche. When I was a teenager I listened to Slayer and watched gorey Italian horror films, but I seemed to have recovered. Amazing.

something. It's the blame XXXX society. No one takes personal responsibilty for anything anymore. There is ALWAYS something to blame. It's not my fault it's that damn XXXXX.

...I'm sure the argument's at LEAST that old.

Besides, the majority audience for video games is now ADULTS.

nature of the games, it's possible that there is a difference in the "threat," if there is one. What I'm seeing in the children I work around and with is a massive disconnection from reality or context. They don't read, they know nothing of history, science or geography, and yet they're quite savvy about the games. And this is quite different from how it was in my day. Now some people in this thread have suggested that the games will replace reading and human interaction as the context in which people will try to understand the world, but I'm not sure I buy that. I've been sent some links to articles, and I'll check them out. My original point, which seems to have been lost, is that although video games and shallow, R-rated movies are a poor substitute for art and experience, and are ostensibly not to occupy huge chunks of children's formative hours, they are nevertheless marketed to children; and my question was whether government should take some role in the encouragement of the "higher" things, knowing that the market will ALWAYS appeal to the hungry and fearful id.

Some people read this as being against games, or against violence, or whatever.

but your original point seems to have changed a few times through out the thread.

I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence that otherwise intelligent adults play these games, but I can't believe that very many fully-functioning grownups will spend their time and money this way.

That was your original post and it was indeed a slam to adults who may choose to play video games. I guess your belief that all the fully functioning adults would jump on that high horse with you turned out to be wrong huh?

You claim to work around kids and see the disconnect, tell me, did you see this disconnect before GTA came out or did it just suddenly appear? Have you done any leg work what so ever to find out why these kids are disconnected as you say? This whole post was nothing more than a high and mighty attitude against an issue of the moment. You have an opinion, so you spout off opinion as if it were scientific fact. It is not. It is YOUR opinion and nothing more.

but one of the contributing factors to parents not keeping up with their children, often very young children, playing the more adult oriented violent games is how we live. More and more, fewer people are living in larger houses. I watched a documentary years ago about an outbreak of venereal disease in teenagers here in Georgia. (in one of the affluent suburbs.) The families whose kids were involved in group sex lived in enormous McMansions. A family with one of two kids had a house with at least 5,000 square feet. Families live like they're in a hotel. Parents don't overhear what their kids are watching on TV or saying to their friends. Kids' friends come and go without the parents even knowing. Everyone is in a separate room watching TV, playing a video game, talking on their cell phone, using their personal computer, or listening to their Ipod or CD player. Days can go by without family members even seeing each other. There's no interaction. Families are strangers.
As a teenager, I could only dream about this kind of anonymity. I lived in a ranch house with my parents and a brother and sister. I had to fight to have any secrets whatsoever.
Parents have it tougher now. Technology is giving kids access to adult materials we parents didn't have. And our insistence on living in suburban mansions makes evasion all the easier.
It's a balancing act. Children should have privacy. But parents need awareness so they can help and protect their child's emotional health.

closer to where the parents always stay? That's even what a lot of articles are telling parents to do. The kids aren't going to look at porn if their parents can walk right into the next room and see that on the monitor.

it is by and large for economic reasons that parents are not capable to supervise their kids.

your household is like ours and you have an "airport" which allows you to roam with your laptop.

viz, Prison Tycoon

Prepare your child for a lifetime in the service of Wackenhut!

in many cases, they choose the candy rather then the apple.

Doom, Marathon and the like. I was only allowed to play them when I promised my parents (and showed them) that I would never imitate anything that I ever saw in a game. I've kept that promise to this day, and violent video games just don't excite me anymore. I prefer the RPG or a good puzzle game. I've seen some violent stuff mind you and it does disturb me, so don't think I have desensitized myself.

I think parents really need to just sit down with their kids and just explain to them that video games are just that, games. Imitating the stuff you see in them won't do them any good. If the parent does catch their child doing something from said video game, remove the game from the computer and physically destroy the discs. And then make sure the kid hasn't imaged it onto their hard drive :P

-I am anti-censorship, BUT
-I support the right, if not the duty, of citizens to say to stuff like this, "fuck that shit, I don't like it" and it is NOT "censorship" to say so!
-I think all the people who want to blame the parents are missing so many things. Wasn't there someone, who we all USED to like, who said somthing like, "It Takes A Village ...?"

Video games are *games* - they are not reality, however much they may emulate life-like appearances. Besides being interesting tools for testing cognitive and logical facilities (i.e., beyond mere motor skills), they allow some amount of escapism to occur, with associated reward for various accomplishments, etc. Games, yet still offering some learning with the experience - but, only from how the game rewards tactics and strategies, not so much in the content when it comes to real-life lessons. Zelda never taught me about the importance of princesses, but I had to go through lots of creative problem solving and use patience in trying to save one.

I will eventually try to moderate my kid's use of video or other games based on certain criteria - much as we already do for television, books and movies. My spouse and I teach that violence in cartoons is not real, and that it's mean to actually hurt somebody - even when good battles evil. But, sometimes good must use violence to vanquish a violent evil when we can't find another way: that's simple reasoning about extreme needs to emphasize over time. And, in fact, we will always teach the values in being smart and understanding before ever being violent and uncaring.

There seems no truly meaningful national morality test or level of proactive censorship to worry about enacting: those kinds of sentiments have been around with otherwise well-meaning adults for generations, of course. Put meaningful ratings on the content being offered for video games, then let us parents decide what's good and why for our kids, please.

- wader

These games very often have good stories, and while they also have violence, it's usually not of the graphic variety. They give you problems to solve and require you to consider/explore all the options as you play.

Civilization III is a great game for kids, I think!

Been married 6 years, son is 18 months old, have a mortgage etc, no debt and two paid for cars, house will be paid off in a few years. I read regularly, I'm now reading Collapse by Jared Diamond. Those video games made me a real looser :). I'm also playing Psyconaughts and I've actually laughed out loud at some of the one liners in that game.

When I was younger around 16 there was a game called Mortal Kombat. It struck fear in the hearts of all who saw it. It was the GTA of its time spuring the conservatives into a fury over its death scenes, decapitations etc that you could perform on an opponent after defeating them. It got so controversial that Nintendo when porting it from the Arcade to the SNES didn't include any 'blood' they just had 'sweat'.

I played it quite a bit at the arcade. It was violent and I use to drive up the city from the family farm in BFE to play it in rough areas... I once had a man try to bet me at 16 years old over 100 dollars on a single match, I had another grown man tell me quote "I'll be waiting for your ass in the parking lot with a gun" after I beat him repeatedly in front of a crowd of 25 people cheering. I actually learned some very valuable real life lessons from those experiences heh.

A few years later I actually played the 3rd installment of this game in a university sponsored tournament. Funny story, 10 years after that tournament back in the fall of 95 I actually met a man who recongizned me from that tournament over 100 miles away in large city, I placed 2nd.

Anyways.. I was subject to a lot of violence from that game and other games.. doom, quake, etc. Its not the voilence but the the challenge of going against another person in competition that I enjoyed, I wasn't very athletic as a kid but this gave me the thrill of how it must have felt to score that touchdown or hit the homerun. Its a great feeling to hear clapping and cheering after you defeat your opponent.

Somehow even after those violent games I turned into a non drug using guy with a family in the burbs in a corporate job, who probably looks like the person who would be first in line to ban violent games :). I hope some day the worst thing my son does is play a game like GTA, not like everyone I knew who at 16 was buying 1/5ths of Jack or smaller bottles of Mad Dog and Hot Damn to go drink out in someones barn.

The issue of games should be left up to the parents and those parents need to pay attention. Like any other choice they shouldn't just buy something to make up for guilt of working to much to climb the ladder or just to make the kid shut up in the store. Games will not cause a child to be violent they are just an excuse that is used to explain away real problems at home etc.

As far as bad choices and mindless entertainment:

What about asshole parents who take their 8 year olds to see Predator or Hellraiser or something etc isn't that worse?

Or what of the online RPG's where one can spend hundreds of hours pursing useless crap that only exists in cyberspace(ie EQ)?

What about grown men painting themselves to go drink and watch football? Or the sports freak wasting time in his basement with 3 different tvs and a special cable package to watch 3 different college games at once while he ignores his kids all Saturday... etc.

There are mindless forms of entertainment everywhere for everyone to waste time at.

own situation, and it sounds like you've got a good thing going on. My concern is not the violence (and I remember Mortal Kombat, because my own kids played it when they got a little older), but that all of what used to teach people to be human, which was good reading and direct human experience, is being pushed out by lowest-common-denominator entertainment. Kids used to have 168 hours a week. Kids still have 168 hours a week. If you compare how they spent them 40 years ago with how they spend them now, you'll see a big difference in where they get their information and how they draw conclusions about the world. This is what worries me: Most of the people on a liberal bulletin board are saying that "Just Say No" is the answer.

there is no such thing as a collective social conscience. So we got all the freedoms we screamed about in the 70's and neglected to bring along the wisdom to deal with them.

asks for. There's not much money in selling things that are good for people, 'cause people don't want them. We want "Soma." So many people on this board are afraid of 1984, but it's Brave New World that's gonna take us out.

who are not on this board are falling for the Bushite propaganda because the topic of our cultural extremes (or lack of true culture, as you have pointed out) is one of the American people's primary concerns (remember the election polls?) and the only ones who hear them know how to exploit the issues, with not an ounce of sincerity. After all, sexual enhancement drug ads during the Super Bowl didn't start during the last administration.

preferably the kind with monsters and not humans tho. unless it's Unreal tournament.

i do it to unwind and decompress from work. (when i have a box)

and i'm female.

I personally would rather my kids be exposed to "mindlessly violent video games" than be exposed to "Mindless Censorship"

you raise your kids, i'll raise mine

deal?

Of Profitability being the only driving force in all our decision making. There wouldn't be games like this if it didn't make them good money. But I'm not sure what value they add to society.

Depends on the game though. There is some really off the deep end out there.

I don't think you can understand why many of us adults play them. It's not a matter of grappling with maturity, it's a game. It's a game just like the games supposed "adults" play...tennis or golf or whatever the hell boring games you people play. :P

Regardless of whether or not you find video games offensive, I have the right to play them. I'd I am SICK AND TIRED of people using children as an excuse for EVERYTHING. Whenever someone wants to ban on regulate something it's always "the poor children". Democrats who are advocating the censorship and outright banning of certain types of games are no better than the Repugs. Don't you realize that you're doing the exact same thing they are? It's just worded differently.

Freedom of speech, and free expression...that's what MY kind of liberal stands for. If I want to play some game with cartoonish gore, then I will. If people don't want their children being horribly warped by a GAME, I suggest they don't buy the game for them (seeing as how adult games are rated M or AO). I think the so called "community" a child is in warps them more than TV or video games. Unless that TV show is Sean Hannity.

Hands off!!

just bitching about people's choices?

You want to change the culture, create a compelling video game that ISNT "mindless".

The govt has NO BUSINESS telling me what I can expose my children to.

And, you know what? NEITHER DO YOU!

I get so sick of censorship apologists using children as their excuse to decide what is and isnt quality entertainment.

whenever the control freaks come out of the woodwork to justify telling other adults what to do.

(I posted this in the other video game thread, but I'll post it here, too. Still stands imho)

He has been playing video games of all kinds since he was a young child. Rpg's, Fps', strategy, puzzle, adventure, etc. All kinds. His particular favorite as a young boy was Doom. You run around and kill demons. Progressively getting better weapons throughout the game, solving puzzles to finish the levels. Solving an extra puzzle to find a "secret" level. But mostly, shooting demons.

Once he hit jr. high & high school, he had become a very angry young man. He was violent, beating up kids at school.

Guess why he became that way? It wasn't video games. It wasn't shooting demons or monsters or bad guys or people in *fantasy* land. It was because he had a terrible father who started beating the crap out of him starting around age 5. Fast forward a few years- still getting beat regularly by dad, he was getting beat up at school now too. He was a geeky awkward child who didn't wear the clothes everyone else wore, was smarter than the other kids, wore glasses. So. You have a kid with no place to go, everywhere he goes he is not safe from harm. Add to that the psychological damage from people treating him like scum at school and at home.

The only safe place he had was the occasional weekend or holiday or summer at mom's. Mom didn't know what was going on, son wouldn't tell her. Son didn't want mom to feel guilty or be hurt or feel like it was her fault. Son wanted mom to be happy.

So eventually with all this torment, he ended up lashing out. He ended up beating the crap out of all the kids tha taunted him and beat him up- and then some, to prove a point. That he was not to be fucked with. It wasn't the video games, no, the video games gave him something to think about other than PAIN. Once he was able to move in with his mom, and recieve the love and care he needed, he was healed. And I am forever grateful to his mother for that.

Video games, tv, books, comics, they are not to blame for the violence of children. It is our society! A society where children do not come first. A society where moms and dads have to work several jobs to make ends meet, thus having no time for their children. A society where children mean nothing more than money to the guys at the top.

It's bad parents. It's irresponsible parents. It is *abusive* parents. Then unfortunately it is also the homelife of children whose parents really are good, but have to be at work far too often.

Kids are being neglected. Kids are left with nothing to do, extracurricular activities being cut short due to lack of funding. No place to to go other than empty homes, so why not roam the streets, and hey, if the only kids who pay attention to you happen to be unruly kids who break the law for fun, that's better than being home, by yourself, with nothing but the tv and a frozen dinner. Right? Unfortunately, it is better in the minds of some children.

Whether there is violence in a video game or not, whether you want to believe it or not video games make children *think*. Which is more than I can say for many schools that have limited themselves to memorization and standardized testing. Critical thinking is involved in most games, because you have to solve puzzles, search for clues, etc. Even Fps games have a level of strategy to them. Games have ratings. Parents need to be responsible for what they buy for their children. Not the government. Not business. Read the labels, read the reviews, if you don't find it appropriate, don't buy it.

But please, don't fight video games, don't fight entertainment, especially *adult* entertainment.

Focus on the REAL problems in our society. Big business targeting children for big bucks. Public schools that just aren't what they used to be. Child abuse. The lack of extracurricular activities. Among many, many other things that really do affect children in a negative way.


I've never known a gamer to be negatively affected by a video game. My SO was affected by child abuse, and abuse from kids at school. I was affected by abusive alcoholics that my mother had a thing for, who abused me and my brother- both of us are lifelong gamers. Never been violent, never thought to be. Many of my friends are also lifelong gamers. None of them violent. None of them law breakers, except for the occasional use of Mary Jane. We all had bad home lives, and that is what caused problems for us. And many of us turned to video games, and books, for a fantasy world to keep us somewhat sane. It helped my brother to learn how to read, forced him to learn. It helped me with critical thinking. I can go on but this is long enough.

As far as your insults to adult gamers go, get over yourself.

and I thought HALO 2 was about the best damn thing I'd ever played on the XBOX or anything else, for that matter.

Some people, believe it or not, are perfectly capable of discerning the difference between pixels on a screen and violence against actual living things. Wow!

Oh, on edit: I'm also "fully functioning" and I've been an adult for a very long time, thank you very much. :crazy:

Alright, I confess. I play "mindlessly violent video games". I played GTA 3 and GTA: Vice City all the way through, and enjoyed the hell out of both of them. Chalk it up to immaturity, I guess.

I also play Civilization (my favorite game), which involves no blood or crime sprees (somehow it still manages to hold my interest), and I play a lot of games of Catan online. And I also play Baldur's Gate (a role-playing game, which probably means that my immortal soul is in danger).

And yet, somehow, I managed to make it to age 30 without committing any major crimes. I don't beat up old ladies for their monthly SS check or hijack police vehicles. And perhaps most importantly, I don't live in my parents' basement.

Yes, despite all of the video game playing, I am indeed a fully functioning, tax paying member of society. Shocking but true.

I also have a happy marriage, a small circle of friends, read 20+ books a week (how many American adults can say that?), am working on a Ph.D., surf the internet for political news, do watercolors, fence competitively, exercise an hour a day, and sleep in any spare time I get.

My husband, also a gamer, holds down a full time job and also has a similar lifestyle. He also finished GTA 3 and Vice City (after I did).

But I guess we're the exception... All the other adult gamers in the world are maladjusted, pale, sad friendless people who shoot up police cruisers and are ruining the world for other people's children. :eyes:

Ages 27-49 (Have 25 engineers working for me and about 95% play these types of games a lot).

half life 2