Was what happened in London on Thursday a "MIRACLE"?

Was what happened in London on Thursday a "MIRACLE"? And if so what was its purpose? Clearly some of those who escaped being horribly murdered think so?

Please discuss with reference to whether the events in London might be used to spread a message of hope and religious tolerance, or of hatred and fear in places of worship this weekend?

I do believe that people were fortunate enough to escape unharmed, but that had more to do with the fact that the explosives weren't that big.

I believe in science. There is a scientific explanation for the lack of casualties.

Mz Pip
:dem:

Probably cooked up at the same time as the first deadly batch.

At yesterday's hearing, the panel said clearly that terrorists require human intel to defeat.

One possible explanation is their cell was infiltrated by a govt spy, and the real explosive mix was purposely weakened, so there could be a chance to catch the suspects alive and in the act.

But now with Plame being outted at the highest level of the US govt, it is going to be more difficult, if not impossible, to gain the trust of agents on the "other side", because they know we will not guard their identity.

And *if* this was one of those scenarios, it may be one of the last.

"An interesting question may arise. Does something have to break a natural law for it to be a miracle? C.S. Lewis defines a "miracle" in his work by the same name as an interference with nature by a supernatural power. Obviously, to interfere with natural law may not necessarily mean to break the natural law. In fact, nature and "supernature" become interlocked after a miracle occurs and nature carries on according to the change wrought by that event."

But I have a very deep view of what "natural law" entails, and that includes quantum physics/string theory type stuff. The reality is that we don't ever know what is really true in this thing we call "reality".

All we have are abstract models that help us make things work, or explain the way things work. But you drill down to the lowest partical, or string that comprises the basics of our understanding, and you ask a scientist, "well, what made *that* little thing?", and they will not have a clue.

Now, I'd put my money on a more basic reason why those bombs didn't go off. I don't think a "god" had a hand in it at all, I think it was just a basic screwup in mixing/understanding chemicals, or clever covert operations.

On edit:
I really don't care what the reason was for the bombs not being deadly, I'm happy they didn't do what was intended.

"I really don't care what the reason was for the bombs not being deadly, I'm happy they didn't do what was intended."

It strikes me that if you are happy, and consider the event as amazing then it could therefore be a miracle for you.

As you say there is almost certainly a sensibel explanation.

It might be there was a leak in the roof where the bombs were being stored, or even as you say some intervening act by the law enforcement services.

But even if that were so it can still be a miracle.

the bombs were not meant to go off,just scare.

If so then let us hope the new form of terror attack takes off. Fake bombs are seriously better than the real thing. Especially if you are on a train with one.

In any case we should know soon enough.

The nature of the universe of totally beyond our everyday understanding. What you regard as "natural laws" may be a Newtonian mechanistic view which is sadly outdated. Quantum physics points to a multiplicity of occurring probabilities. In a world that operates under these laws very strange stuff can and does occur. And just to push you over the edge a little further... there is probably a universe where the explosives did go off and people were injured, there is probably a universe where the 9/11 hijackers failed, there is probably a universe where Al Gore is president... Unfortunately in our universe Schroedinger's cat was found to be dead.

:P

You didn't quite grasp the pessimism in the metaphor... There never was a cat, or an experiment for that matter. Schroedinger's cat was a hypothetical explanation of quantum mechanics. I said "the cat was found dead in our universe" because shitty stuff (like the Bush presidency) happens here often.

:sarcasm:

Your pessimism was noted... and that is why I am interested in discussing this. Can the delivery of these people from the jaws of death become a source of hope for all?

This is what they'll say in another 100 years.

That being said I entertain the intellectual possibility of all you said.

String theory is likely to be the next "quantum physics", but scientists don't have the technology to test it... and string theory is much wierder than quantum physics...

It's "effective ordnance" if they go off against THEIR side.

Miracles, angels, pixies - call it what you want. All the same nonsense.

I am off for a nip. Will pop back and see how the discussion is developing this evening. Feel free to reccommend if you think this is a discussion worth having.

and so to attempt to answer my own question"

So far as both the dictionary and theological definition of "miracle" are concerned these events qualify methinks. But should they be so described? Is it helpful or appropriate to do so?

My inclination at this stage is to think that the description of these events as "a miracle" may have some fascinating impacts on how we see the war or terror (not to mention the war on the war on terror).

For starters hope is surely what we all know we need more of. These events have given us a very rare glimpse of hope in a very dark time. This failed bombing has been framed on either side by two of the worst suicide bombings ever in Iraq (the tanker) and Egypt. It is because of this that the idea that what happened on Thursday is a miracle seems somewhat alien at first glance.

In my mind the probe article ( http://www.probe.org/content/view/466/47 )is fascinatingly good material for religious/philisophical consideration & debate. If this is a miracle and a miracle is a sign. Then what is that sign saying?

God loves London?

...or, and for me this is not actually that difficult a question...

Terror. Enough already?

And one final thought before I go. The one group of people for whom these events would certainly not be seen as a "miracle" are those who wanted the bombs to go of and those who now wish they had.


:)

al

We're living in the Real World. The fact that so many people read this crap in Sleazeball Murdoch's nasty little rag is all the proof you need that there is no intelligent guiding force behind anything.

That sort of disqualifies you from the discussion Mr Blur :)

.. because it is. Out of the mouths of tabloids...

This was the first reaction of some friends when I suggested this idea.

... and therein lies monsters. For example the Christian Right or * might think it is a sign that God is on their side. And this response would not be constructive.

.. except to say they don't beleive in miracles.

It is after all, just one incident. No one can legitimately cry miracle because there are, as you say, many terrorists acts going unthwarted. Egypt, for a recent example.

It's similar to claiming rock 'n roll musicians die young. And then they list 20 or so famous musicians as proof. But you never hear about the surviving musicians.

I do find it interesting (suspicious, rather) that someone in the press decides to use the word "miracle", which clearly has religious overtones, and leads back into the "God is on our side" mentality that has started and continued so much violence over the centuries.

Cheers you cool cat!