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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 11:58 AM
Original message
"95% of suicide bombers act in order to remove occupying foreign troops"
according to Robert Pape in his book Dying to Win, no link provided. Even if it is 50% it would show that a major "cause" of suicide attacks is basically a taboo subject: occupying foreign troops.
The author also addresses the School Of The Americas (now the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation), another completely taboo subject.

http://baltimorechronicle.com/072205Haining.shtml

PERSPECTIVE:
An Australian's View of the "War on Terror"
by Damien Haining

Australia is an ally of the US in the ‘war on terror’. We’re in Afghanistan and Iraq with you. That makes us, like you, a bigger target for terrorists. It also means that we bear the same mindless arguments from our political leaders to justify these wars: ‘better to fight them over there than over here’.
The problem is that the basis of Islamic terrorism is really yet to be identified in the public mind. What is it exactly? Do they ‘hate us because we are free’? Is that it? Do they envy our western lifestyle? Are they just poor, disaffected youth? Or is it a collection of reasons?

<snip>
Terrorist sponsorship and training, like land mines and poison gas, needs to be universally denounced. This means, among other things, that the US should stop teaching terrorism at the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, formerly known as the School of the Americas.

<snip>
One feature, as Robert Pape points out in his book Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism, is that 95% of suicide bombers act in order to remove occupying foreign troops, religious ideology playing no part in their actions. Iraqi suicide bombers have arisen only following US occupation. We need to understand that we could cut terrorism down to size by staying away from where we don’t belong. Unfortunately, Western allies see getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan as just ‘giving in to the terrorists’.

..more..
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Gee, ya figure?
I can't think of too many other reasons they'd be blowing themselves up...
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. Naw.... it's your freedom they want... what a way to get it, huh?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. What a genius
Who would have ever thought such a thing? Certainly not a nitwit like Bush.



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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Here, have some democracy

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. stranger than fiction..
entirely too accurate :-(
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ithinkmyliverhurts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. That would be an odd poll to conduct.
I'd love to see the specific polling questions.
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Lecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. Most people blame it on Islam fundamentalism
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 07:09 PM by Lecky
I'm sure our government is well aware of the roots of terror, but for propaganda purposes make it simple for the common Joe Blow to understand...

blame it on religious fundamentalism
claim "they hate us for our freedom"

Even if the assholes in charge know that our removal of occupying foreign troops would result in less terror that is not an option for the USA...why? OIL! Everyone over there knows it too which I'm sure just endears us even more.

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. With all the propaganda on the 'news' it makes this statement
seem like a eureka moment, but it is very plainly simply a guerilla war.

How else are you gonna fight an asymmetrical war?
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. No, no, it's because they HATE OUR FREEDOM!
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. As if anyone's really surprised.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. When you blow away a man's family with a 2000 lb bomb...
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 09:35 PM by Selatius
dropped from 10,000 feet in the air, you're going to have to expect that some of them will not stop until they've gained their revenge and killed you. It is confirmed that tens of thousands of civilians have been killed as a result of the invasion. It is estimated that 100,000 have died. Anyone want to venture a guess as to how many resistance fighters have been generated by that death toll?

For some of these people, their families are the only reasons for living. You take away that, and you take away his reason for living, which could mean he is more likely to strap on a bomb and go for a fucking walk.
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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. British bombers have never been to Iraq so how can they take revenge?

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-24-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Might be those suicide bombers in London weren't Iraqi
The article was talking about suicide bombings done by Iraqis in the Iraq War. The bombings in London look more like the work of Al Qaeda.
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laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Interviews w/ Pape:links
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. good interview, "In his office is the world’s largest database of
information about suicide terrorists"

thanks, *interesting to note this is in American Conservative


<snip>
TAC: So if Islamic fundamentalism is not necessarily a key variable behind these groups, what is?

RP: The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign—over 95 percent of all the incidents—has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw.

TAC: That would seem to run contrary to a view that one heard during the American election campaign, put forth by people who favor Bush’s policy. That is, we need to fight the terrorists over there, so we don’t have to fight them here.

RP: Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism, the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies over there, if you would, is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us.

<snip>
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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. Overly simplistic and wrong.

95% act to remove occupying foreign troops? That's a bunch of crap.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002367644_terror08.html

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html


Some highlights from Osama's letter to America:

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory"

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.



The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.



(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?



From School for terror: why some choose the path of the bomber

But for me, Baasyir's case poses a different question. That's because he was a co-founder of the Islamic boarding school, Al Mukmin Ngruki, where I spent six years. While I chose a career in journalism, many of my fellow students chose differently. Dozens of Ngruki's alumni have been accused of taking part in a wave of terrorist attacks against Westerners in Indonesia. Security analysts and police investigators believe the link is no coincidence. Sidney Jones of the International Crisis Group has called my alma mater an "Ivy League" for Jemaah Islamiyah recruits.



Why did so many of my fellow students end up choosing terrorism while I ended up writing about them?

To begin to answer that question, I decided to meet Abubakar Baasyir in jail. In his mid-60s, he wore a white shirt and worn eyeglasses; a white box cap was perched on his head.

Baasyir, who proclaims himself an admirer of Osama bin Laden but denies being a terrorist leader, said he is just a victim of "the infidel Bush's America." Then he quoted a verse from the Koran: "The infidels will never stop fighting us until we follow their way."

I know that verse by heart. We learned it in school.

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. His main focus was for U.S. troops to leave Saudi Arabia
Guess what?

It worked.

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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Main focus? Did you even bother to read the "letter to America"?
I doubt it.

The very first thing he complains about is the crime of creating Israel.

Hell, it's at the beginning of the letter! Did you just skip 95% of it until you got the part about Saudi Arabia?

I think you did.

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Lecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. The root to terror is foreign occupation
This is the sole reason why terrorist organizations are made. Osama and his ilk use Islam as a device to justify the unjustifiable

Think about it, have terrorists always been Islamic fundamentalists throughout history? Why were organizations like the IRA founded?

There are many more issues that come into play but foreign occupation trumps them all.



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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. see first link in post 12
Edited on Sat Jul-23-05 10:02 PM by G_j
the guy seems to have studied this pretty thoroughly.
As for OBL's words, I don't see them as any more truthful than Bush's.
There are always ulterior motives behind the lies. Just a bunch of words aimed to manipulate.
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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-23-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Hes talking about suicide terrorists in general. Not those that attack us.

Are we really fighting the Tamil Tigers?



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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-25-05 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. no, including those that attack us
<snip>
Since 1990, the United States has stationed tens of thousands of ground troops on the Arabian Peninsula, and that is the main mobilization appeal of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. People who make the argument that it is a good thing to have them attacking us over there are missing that suicide terrorism is not a supply-limited phenomenon where there are just a few hundred around the world willing to do it because they are religious fanatics. It is a demand-driven phenomenon. That is, it is driven by the presence of foreign forces on the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. The operation in Iraq has stimulated suicide terrorism and has given suicide terrorism a new lease on life.

TAC: If we were to back up a little bit before the invasion of Iraq to what happened before 9/11, what was the nature of the agitprop that Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda were putting out to attract people?

RP: Osama bin Laden’s speeches and sermons run 40 and 50 pages long. They begin by calling tremendous attention to the presence of tens of thousands of American combat forces on the Arabian Peninsula.

In 1996, he went on to say that there was a grand plan by the United States—that the Americans were going to use combat forces to conquer Iraq, break it into three pieces, give a piece of it to Israel so that Israel could enlarge its country, and then do the same thing to Saudi Arabia. As you can see, we are fulfilling his prediction, which is of tremendous help in his mobilization appeals.

<snip>
Now, of course, today we have 150,000 troops on the Arabian Peninsula, and we are more in control of the Arabian Peninsula than ever before.

TAC: If you were to break down causal factors, how much weight would you put on a cultural rejection of the West and how much weight on the presence of American troops on Muslim territory?

RP: The evidence shows that the presence of American troops is clearly the pivotal factor driving suicide terrorism.

<snip>
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