Nixon, Reagan, and George W Bush are communists.

You heard me.

Nixon opened the doors to offshoring.

Reagan used dynamite to blow the doors off the hinges.

Bush says offshoring is good for our economy.

But LOOK where the jobs go to: China for manufacturing and now IT. (it started in India but they're hardly freedom-loving like the American facade claims to be...)

China is a HUGE Communist empire.

I grew up listening to politicians on BOTH sides telling us that communism is evil. So I am not just betrayed by what they supported behind closed doors. I am livid. They are trading with the enemy and are therefore traitors to our country. You heard me.

My only regret is that Nixon and Reagan are dead. They deserve to be alive when the Day of Defeat is upon us. When China pulls its trump card to take over the very country that claimed it was fighting evil communism. Talk about irony. If not utter hypocrisy.

Even Lyndon Johnson (a Democrat, surprisingly) who started the Vietnam war in the name of preventing the spread of communism should be alive for the Day of Reckoning, which is sadly too soon. Not a Democrat.

As far as I am concerned, Nixon et al had taught us that communism is evil and wrong - unless we can use them to make a profit. Money is more important than morals or ethics. But when you exploit others, be sure to cover all the bases or they will use what you give them and then turn what they've given you against you.

So when a republican dares call any left-winger (or the Democratic party itself) a communist supporter, it is your CORE DUTY to remind them of the last 33 years' worth of treachery by the part of their own. Nixon went to China and started the mess. And along came Reagan. And topped off by Duh-buy-yeah Bush.

but if China is still communist, what the fuck has communism become. I think Marx is probably rolling in his grave right now?

"Communism" as we want it to be will NEVER exist. People are too brainwashed by self-interest and I see that more and more every day. As a society, we sadly are devolving and only the good die young.

a socialist society/economy can work, just as any other system can truly work. Socialism and any other system can all succeed (nothing is "perfect", only good enough; and everything becomes corrupt after awhile), it just needs the help and support of those within it.

(edited title and last sentence)

then a lot could be achieved. Communism is an economic theory (philosophy if you want) not a political philosophy. I think a lot of people are confused on this point.

I just don't get the whole love affair with China thing. China is not just Communist. It is repressive Communist. And the same people who are so "pro-life" here don't give a hoot about the draconian Chinese Communist family planning laws. They are too busy shopping at Wal-Mart to care about the unborn Chinese babies (especially girls). China does not have a free press, does not honor the rule of law and has nuclear weapons to boot and has spies all over the world. What is going on here? Is the Republican lust for money so overwhelming that they can't see where they are taking us?

Not that I would discount certain other responses to my thread (even the rude and inconsiderate ones), but you have nailed it where those others hadn't.

And you bet our folks in power love the repressive style. That's what they want; they themselves alluded to it in certain quotes before the 2000 election and since then have made statements and signed acts that damningly prove their former statements and worse.

They just have convenient communistic leanings in their "philosophy".

We've succeeded in turning China away from evil communism by convincing them that the "free market" is the way of truth and light.

Being quick learners, they are now using capitalism, that beloved dog-eat-dog philosophy that has made America the most hated nation on earth, to defeat us.

As Lenin said, "The capitalists will sell us the rope to hang them with."

And like any tenant-landlord relationship in a capitalist system, we'll have lost all leverage in a disagreemnt.

Kinda funny, if you appreciate irony. Not so funny otherwise.

...that every prominent Democrat from Adlai Stevenson to John F. Kennedy to Mike Mansfield to Tip O' Neil to Jimmy Carter to...on ad naseum either hoped for such an "opening" to China as Nixon had, or was quite happy in the aftermath to follow up. And for good progressive reasons.
You simply need to spend more time reading, and less time posting, before you undertake to opine about such things.

History has shown us that too. (so all the Dems in the world would have wanted China relations... but for proper reasons. And Nixon, Reagan, and/or any corporate-backing Dem would have perverted things anyway.)

And while you're at it, tell me what to read. You seem clever enough to know...

It's also true that Dems sometimes act in the interest of Repukes too... so how do either of us know those Dems you spoke of wanted to open up China for all the benevolent reasons?


Edited: Removed an ignorance on my part... Just a little overheated...

...for crying out loud, I've been here for 14 months. But thanks for your warm welcome... :party:

Outsourcing is, in fact, a core element of economic development all throughout history.

Cities outsource to rural areas.
Expensive states outsource to poorer states.
Well developed countries outsource to less developed countries.

In the long run it actually benefits both sides.
With that infusion of capital into the lesser entity they build themselves up and increase their standard of living; And from there they start buying goods from the greater entity (because they can now afford it, yet they aren't capable of making such things for themselves yet).

Point in case: China has an increasingly voracious demand for consumer household appliances and goods, like refrigerators and toasters or washing machines. Guess where they buy them from? Yep, the USA.

And the only reason is the executives' bottom line.

And if the Chinese are buying from the US, how come our trade deficit is still monsterously huge? What am I missing out on this time?

We're outsourcing jobs we no longer need nor want. We aren't losing net jobs, we're changing them up for more advanced jobs.
You can keep those jobs right here in your own country, your own state, or your own city, if you really want to, but the fact is that you are never going to grow beyond those jobs until you outsource them.

Outsourcing to a cheaper source is what frees up capital to create new technological ventures.
Outsourcing is how you go from an aricultural based economy to an industrial economy to an electronics economy to a high technology economy.
Why would we, as a society, want to hold on to our industrial era jobs when we can outsource them and put those workers to use building electronic products?
The end result is we still have jobs, we still have industrial items, and now we have electronics too. Everyone wins. It's the march of progress.

In the short term, every single American that buys a cheaper product is benefiting with an increase in their standard of living (ie. their buying power).
Whenever you can buy more for less you're better off.

In the long term, aside from the obvious advances in technology and standard of living, our entire economy benefits from opening up another market which will buy OUR advanced goods.
We already see this happening with basic consumer goods.
China right now can't afford the high technology we put out, but they will be able to in 20 years, maybe sooner.
By that time maybe China has replaced Japan as a world leader in providing consumer electronics. Certainly by that time the US economy will have moved on to even bigger and better forms of high technology, like biotech.

are in the service industries. Most of them don't pay very well. Outsourcing is decimating our economy, making us overly dependent on imports and decreasing our wages. It's just bad, bad, bad for the US.

I read great government statistics on the internet about unemployment. But when I talk to my friends and neighbors, very few are still working. So, I do not believe the statistics. In California, the hopeful unemployed are now trying to get into real estate, becoming coaches or just admitting defeat. These fields are becoming overcrowded.

I have been applying for a real job beyond the part-time gigs I get every once in a while for quite some time now. I have a great resume. Nobody is interested. If I get a response at all, it is always a boilerplate rejection letter. I have heard of job ads for part-time teaching positions at low pay, for example, that got 150 responses. Sorry, you spout a high-sounding theory, but, like Communism, that's all it is. In this market, odds of getting a job are low and the cost of applying is high, both emotionally and materially.

The reality is not at all as you say it should be. Stop spinning theories. Please get real and face the painful reality that outsourcing has foisted upon many of us.

The US can't move on to bigger and better forms of high technology unless people can afford to eat. And the way opportunities are disappearing and wages are spiraling downward, many people are living on credit and will not be able to afford to eat before long.

Just as our states are economically dependant on each other, so too are we economically dependant on other countries. And they are equally dependant on us for their continued vitality.
China is just yet another market in this chain of interconnections.
Which, from a national security standpoint, is fabulous, because it gives us a lot of pull over China; Economic interaction and interdependence is the single greatest defuser of tension between two nations.
We don't have to fear China in the same way we feared Russia, because China has opened herself to the west and is slowly embracing free market reforms.

Think of it this way: What would happen to a large US state decided all of a sudden that they would be better off if they strived for total autonomy in economic matters?
That's a lot to take on, even for a big state: Low level manufacturing, raw material processing, self sustaining agriculture, etc.
You can't do all that and still continue doing everything you're doing right now. You don't have the manpower or the capital for it, and a lot of the higher technology industries REQUIRE interdependence with other economies due to the sheer amount of specializations that go into creating it.
The state would instantly roll back the clock by about 100 years in terms of economic development. The state would be spending so much effort, manpower, and capital just seeing to it's basic life supporting needs, that it would not have much left over to devote to higher manufacturing, the service industry, etc.
They wouldn't even be able to afford to import these higher goods from surrounding states because their main exportable items are no longer high profit goods. They would be producing third world quality stuff.
Economic development would come to a screeching halt and remain stagnated, because the state's market has tapped itself out and there's no where else to expand.
Standards of living would plummet. Some goods and services would no longer even be available. And what's left would be in less supply so you can't afford as much.

California's economic problems are their own, and stem from a lot of issues which don't include outsourcing of the manufacturing jobs that California never had to begin with.
Most of everything Californians buy on a daily basis either comes other states or other countries. And even the low level work they do have, like agriculture, is filled up mostly by low-cost illegal workers.
Take all that away and nobody could afford to live there anymore.

I doubt it. If so, where and how many? I don't think the US makes consumer household appliances or goods any more, at least not ones the Chinese could afford. Check your facts. Everything I can afford is made overseas.

But that's only because the stuff they are buying is so basic that we've long sinced outsourced production to places like Mexio.
But China is still giving money to the American companies which design, market, and move these household items (Like Black and Decker).

The point I was making is that China can now afford these things that use to be out of their league, because their standard of living is being brought up by our economic investments.

Give it 10-20 years and China will be buying DVD players like they are buying toasters right now.

By thw way: I have a friend who does liason work for Boeing, so he's been able to give me a lot of first hand information and insight about what life and industry is like in China.

programs, to fill the campaign coffers. :nuke:

All communists.