We have to get out of Iraq, and apparently...

...we have to have this argument again. I'm seeing more than a few posts from people who agree with Franken about staying in Iraq, or even augmenting our force there. I'm not 'Franken-bashing' because I don't listen to his show, so I don't have a valid opinion on him. But if he and anyone else say we have to stay, they are wrong.

Here's why.

We aren't there to bring democracy. Iraq was balkanized before the invasion, and is far worse in that respect today. The Sunnis appear to be about to get shut out of any constitutional recognition, the Kurds want the northern oil fields, and the Shi'ites are going to make sure that whatever laws are enacted there bend to the will of Islam. A democracy with elements of Islamic law is possible - see Turkey - but not likely.

So scratch that of the list.

The other argument is that we have to stay because the place is such a dangerous mess (that we created), and if we leave, we will create another Afghanistan and immesurably increase terror threats to us and the world. The problem is that it is our presence that is creating the problem.

Yes, we made a mess. No, we cannot just jump out of it. But we can leave in a responsible fashion:

* End the Houston-based contracting of work in Iraq and open the doors to Iraqi companies and workers. The believers in privatization here should practice what they preach and allow Iraqis to make money off the work and repairs needing to be done. As funds flow into the Iraqi economy, burgeoning and reconstituted private companies can take it upon themselves to make sure the lights work, the roads are paved, the water is running, and the trash is picked up. Once upon a time, Iraq was the most modern and industrialized nation in that region, filled with highly educated workers who know how to run a country. The Iraqi people must be allowed to run their country once again, and must be paid well for their work by Iraqi employers not beholden to profit margins in the United States.

* Arrange for the creation of a base of operations outside of Iraq where an Iraqi National Guard and police force can be trained to take over the security of their country. The old Christian canon states that whenever two or three people are gathered together to pray, Jesus is with them. In Iraq, whenever two or three people are gathered together to sign up for the army or the police, a suicide bomber is there with them to deal death. Establishing a place away from the violence where Iraqis can be prepared and armed for the work needed to gain control of the country will ultimately allow American forces to back away from policing the country, something that has been the chief aggravating factor among that populace. Doing this away from the violence will allow Iraqis to sign up for this work without fear of being blown sideways out a recruiting station.

* Until the infrastructure is repaired and security forces are assembled, steps must be taken to achieve stability without an American face on the action. Work in good faith with both the United Nations and the Arab League to assemble a large security force comprised of people from the region. Care must be taken to avoid any pitfalls regarding potential ethnic and religious friction between the Iraqi people and these Arab security forces, but this can be managed. Once Iraqi infrastructure is restored and a security and police force is in place, the Arab forces can begin a phased withdrawal. Meanwhile, American forces can be removed en masse.

* Practice what has been preached about bringing democracy to that nation. Democracy is not the installation of some bastardized Vichy government managed by remote control from Washington. The Iraqi people will never accept such a government, and the violence and chaos will never end. Provide security by way of the aforementioned steps and let the people decide how their country will be governed. The recent farce of an election did not achieve this; almost all of the candidates were anonymous because they feared assassination, and large swaths of the populace did not participate because they saw it as the sham it was. Let the government be formed as it will, and prepare for the diplomatic ramifications.

* A vital element to the process will be the establishment of a set timetable for withdrawal. Timetables are dangerous; if they are not met, rage is the inevitable result. Yet the changes required of our status in Iraq need date markers and deadlines to push the process along, and the Iraqi people need to know exactly when their country will be their own again.

Bush and his crew want to stay because they are getting paid by our presence. They want to stay because they still see Pax Americana as a viable plan. Neocon mouthpiece Charles Krauthammer confirmed as much in a recent article. Read this carefully:

Alliances with dictatorships were justified in the war against fascism and the cold war, and they are justified now in the successor existential struggle, the war against Arab/Islamic radicalism. This is not just theory. It has practical implications. For nothing is more practical than the question: after Afghanistan, after Iraq, what?

The answer is, first Lebanon, then Syria. Lebanon is next because it is so obviously ready for democracy, having practiced a form of it for 30 years after decolonization. Its sophistication and political culture make it ripe for transformation, as the massive pro-democracy demonstrations have shown.

Then comes Syria, both because of its vulnerability—the Lebanon withdrawal has gravely weakened Assad—and because of its strategic importance. A critical island of recalcitrance in a liberalizing region stretching from the Mediterranean to the Iranian border, Syria has tried to destabilize all of its neighbors: Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, and now, most obviously and bloodily, the new Iraq. Serious, prolonged, ruthless pressure on the Assad regime would yield enormous geopolitical advantage in democratizing, and thus pacifying, the entire Levant.

Some conservatives (and many liberals) have proposed instead that we be true to the universalist language of the President’s second inaugural address and go after the three principal Islamic autocracies: Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan. Not so fast, and not so hard. Autocracies they are, and in many respects nasty ones. But doing this would be a mistake.

In Egypt, we certainly have liberal resources that should be supported and encouraged. But, keeping in mind the Algerian experience, we should be wary of bringing down the whole house of cards and thereby derailing any progress from authoritarianism to liberal democracy. Saudi Arabia has a Byzantine culture, and an equally Byzantine method of governance, which must be delicately reformed short of overthrow. And Pakistan, which has great potential for democracy, is simply too critical as a military ally in the war on al Qaeda to risk anything right now. Pervez Musharraf is no bastard; but even if he were, he is ours. We should be encouraging the evolution of democracy in all of these countries, but relentless and ruthless means—of the kind we employed in Afghanistan and Iraq and should, perhaps short of direct military invention, be employing in Syria—are better applied to enemies, not friends.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12001023_1

That's the game plan, and "staying in Iraq" is central to it. That is the jump-off point.

You want a part of that? Keep preaching the "we need to stay line."

But count me out.

the pukes are going to start pulling out, for the election, and the Dems like Clinton, Biden,Lantos, H. Ford are going to end up supporting more troops in an unpopular invasion.;looking like the warmongers, and get skewered by the new "Peace" Gop.

into a country, make a mess, and then pull out, leaving the mess behind, like we did the last time. Someone is going to have to get a coalition of real international peacekeepers together to go in and help the Iraqis rebuild their country, Maybe they might have to divide it into two or three countries. I don't know.

I do think we should leave at the earliest possible time. Oh, I think we should arrest the Bush administration (Pres. VP and cabinet)and send them over there to be tried for war crimes. Ah, but when pigs fly....

send them a check every month for the next 5 or 10 years in addition to letting them rebuild their own country' If they know we are leaving they will be less tolerant of foreigners causing trouble,(Bernie Ward Plan), and everyone will have the bucks to buy things.I'm sure it would cost less than $185B, and bypass corrupt Vichy rulers.

will get shot up too by the same type of people who did that big series of bombings today in Baghdad at the bus station and hosital...the ones who just want to destabilize, terrorize and kill all those innocent people. I don't know how you root out these kinds of people. I don't know what the answers are. And yeah, Bush etal should be tried for war crimes.

what our enemies (and most likely many of our "friends") want us to do. The longer we stay, the weaker we get, militarily and economically.

Get in, then stay in! - Two wrongs do not make a right.

anymore to fix things there

in that region. I'm not sure I'll like what I see if we do pull out now. We are essentially stuck....*bush made this mess with full intention of a long, brutal chaos....but there are other options...always has been.

I'm all for a UN Military presence. Give some of the Europeans a piece of the pie. Oh, thats not the way *bush plays....thats why they are not there now.....Well, I want our troops home...

the PIE is NOT ours to give to the Europeans!
The PIE belongs to the IRAQIS, and until the US understands that, things will only get worse.

<quoting from WP's OP>

* End the Houston-based contracting of work in Iraq and open the doors to Iraqi companies and workers. The believers in privatization here should practice what they preach and allow Iraqis to make money off the work and repairs needing to be done. As funds flow into the Iraqi economy, burgeoning and reconstituted private companies can take it upon themselves to make sure the lights work, the roads are paved, the water is running, and the trash is picked up. Once upon a time, Iraq was the most modern and industrialized nation in that region, filled with highly educated workers who know how to run a country. The Iraqi people must be allowed to run their country once again, and must be paid well for their work by Iraqi employers not beholden to profit margins in the United States.


*IRAQ belongs to Iraqis. Give it back to them!

*EXPELL ALL foreign based corporations.

*Declare NULL and VOID ALL Iraqi debts to these Corporations!

*Declare NULL and VOID Breemer's 100 EDICTS that demand the privitazation of Iraq and remove control of Itaqi resources from the Iraqi People!

The bell has run and now the powerful fundamentalist type are next in line if we just walk. Tis administration had not intention of giving things to the Iraqi people. *bush created this quagmire, this psychic fuge. I'm being realistic I think in wanting the Europeans in the loop.

would dare to send their troops there (the people will vote them out of office fast). Think Spain after the train bombing

You and I know we cannot possibly win. We do have a responsibility, but it can be carried out in other ways. Bush needs to head to the UN, apologize and offer to pay other countries to go in an act as peace keepers. That is not going to happen, so our only real option is to leave and let the chips fall as they may. What a sorry situation for the Iraqi people.

peace pipe. remove halliburton. give the kabob a chance. move the troops to kuwait, and offer restitution for rebuilding. cheaper in the long run.

But how many are willing to sign up and do it? Staying may be a sort of 'national responsibility' in the abstract, but would YOU die for it? Would you be willing to have a couple of limbs blown off to correct some of Bush's mistakes? I wouldn't.

And that's what it's coming to, because the military is missing their recruitment goals and people aren't reinlisting at sufficient rates.

is a rotten answer because the Iraqis will probably suffer even more. I see no way out of the mess. No I wouldn't risk my life for it. But I'd like to see monkey-flyboy go there and risk his worthless carcass for it. And he can take Wolfie, Perle, Condi, Rummie, Cheney etal with him.

The point I like best is this:
US out - Arab League/UN in

Nothing else will work

Oh sure, I see a lot cooperation coming out of that appointment.

p.s. I have a really nice bridge you might be interested in.

The only time I felt it was necessary to stay was the weeks following "shock and awe". I felt it would have been much more of a mistake to pull right out, but that was after the fact of the invasion.
After a few years of no progression over there, it is apparent no more will be done to "stay the course". It's time we pack up and come home.

overtaken by our spineless Dem leaders' calls for "staying the course," I remember the above points -- that we were never there to do the job that we're pretending we're doing, and we're never going to accomplish the job that we're pretending to do.

None of the other reasons we're there are altruistic, nor is the occupation making a dent in the "war on terra" -- they're simply, at best, self-preserving and, at worst, criminal.

We don't need to waste another tax dollar, or another life on this debacle.

And, the things, Will, that you've bulleted above, won't be accomplished before I'm dead, starting with number one, which would mean a divestiture of capital interest in Iraq.

It sounds as if the early pontificating from the likes of Hillary, Biden, et al is pointed toward being Bigger Badasses than Bush* and wanting more troops.

Guess if they get elected, they'll do an LBJ.

You are right. It is difficult for American soldiers and their families, particularly those who were maimed or killed, to realize that this was simply a disasterous decision that did not/will not work...that their sacrifices were gallant, but that the mission was ill-conceived and came to naught.

Hopefully, it won't take 55,000 dead Americans for us to "get it" this time.

guess we just gotta keep on keeping on and with you and others like you with mighty pens on our side i know we will win.

we got to!

thanks for sharing, as always great work :toast:


http://media.globalfreepress.com

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

Staying is and was the plan. To stay means to accept the plan of "democratizing" the region by force (war). Change that is not within the country itself is not democracy in it's truest sense. To get to democracy in it's truest sense is to encourage its internal democratic forces. To stay, in a way, delegitimizes democracy because it comes from the outside through a barrel of a gun and thus will always have that undemocratic act at its core. And let's face it, it really wasn't about democracy at all but about American hegemony. Sure a few democrats support this idea of democratization, but the whole neocon plan is not about any Washingtons and Jeffersons in Iraq.

how do we determine date markers and what exactly will constitute the markers?

I'm generally an optimist but his position is idiotic.

More troops will do nothing but create more bloodshed and even more increased hatred amongst 1/3rd of the world's population.

Yes, we broke a sovereign country in the cradle of civilization. Yes, we should feel obliged to fix it. But no, we're far too incompetant, corrupt, and ignorant of their culture and history, and we've burned all hope of redemption through the rampant murder and torturing of innocents to ever fix this or ever again be a credible, forgiveable, or honorable broker in this incessant nightmare that we've created.

Call in the Arab league and let them be Islamic as they wish to be.

They aren't all extremists after all, any more than we are.

Sometimes I get whiplash trying to keep up with your positions.

I'd be interested if you get whiplash trying to back up that assertion.

Maybe "stay the course" is the wrong phrase. But you have clearly not been a "get out now" person until very recently.

March: "All I know is this: The Afghanistan model fits, and if we were to pull out tomorrow, a year from now we'd be talking about Iraq being the birthing bed of international terrorism after their civil war, and we'd wind up invading them again. Will staying in create the same kind of problems? Probably. That is why this is such an unbelievable nightmare."

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/3/10/95513/7500

Though, in fairness, I do see in June or July you were sending around a petition for immediate withdrawal. What changed your mind?

I am still not advocating for an immediate withdrawal. Nor was that petition for immediate withdrawal, but for a withdrawal as soon as possible. If you note the five bullet points above, which were part of that petition, it's pretty clear those things won't happen immediately.

If we pull out tomorrow, it will be a disaster. But if we take the steps outlined above, we can get out without it becoming a disaster.

Pretty straightforward, and pretty much what I've been saying all along.

And out of Afghanistan.

Unless I am completely misreading her.

Except you are for establishing a timetable, which I think the Adminsitration probably has done in secret and simply won't release because they are stubborn ass-hats.

:evilgrin:

will is man enough to admit he was wrong and young and passionate enough to do it more often than any of us would like to admit, but he does and I respect that.

peace

Yes we screwed it up.

Yes it's our responsibility.

But there is nothing that we can do there right now. They hate us, and they have every reason to hate us. Invole the UN, shit involve the FRENCH, anyone, pay the bills but stay the hell out.

it somehow has to be an Iraqi solution or regional solution. Unfortunately because of our actions, an Iraqi solution while under occupation will have a hard time getting traction. The solution can't be an Anglo-American solution and succeed. I vote a regional solution, but it probably won't be to the neocons' liking.

I don't think you can get the shit back in the
horse at this stage. Yep, you screwed the pooch
over there big time but that doesn't mean you
have to fix things no matter what the cost in
human lives.

You're only making it worse by staying, so for
the sake of saving American and Iraqi lives GO!

for a rebuilding effort.

I do listen sometimes to Franken, and he is wrong on this.

I'm not interested in making Iraq a de facto 51st state to serve the interests of oil companies and distributors of military hardware at the expense of every taxpayer in the US, their children, and grandchildren.

I also will not support, and in fact will actively work against, any Democrat who wants to continue this war beyond 2009, the end of Bush's term.

Look, my son turns eighteen in November. Krauthammer can send his own grandkids to support a never-ending war for profit...because my family will never see any of it. My kid isn't going.

It's just my observation and should be treated as such, but Franken seems to be moving to the "center", which we used to call the right, a la Senator Clinton, in anticipation of his Senate run against Norm Coleman. He's all but declared his candidacy.

and ask players in the region if they would help Iraq out. And quit rattling sabres at everyone else.

If you break it, they don't make you clean it up. You just have to pay for it.

Bring our troops home NOW!!!

has made it quite clear that they don't do either. They might ask you to leave however :-)

not in body bags. You have a better thought-out plan than this admin. Kudos to you, Will, but how sad for all of us.

is way in over his head on policy. He's a "comic", and it is unfortunate that an astute, informed analysis such as yours cannot be conveyed on AAR, on a regular basis. Franken is fluff, schtick, and a waste of my time. The flame-wars regarding him are funnier than his show...he should not be taken seriously.

This is what confuses me about the argument of "staying the course". We're told that we need to train their military (I can understand that logic) but we're never told the numbers. If we're talking about a large number of Iraqis, then I would understand how training them would help. But if we're talking about just a couple thousand soldiers, then we're screwed.

When Bush declared "Mission Accomplished", I agreed with the need to stay in to ensure stability but that was over two years ago. The excuses for staying haven't changed in that time and that in itself is a big red flag.

The administration is clinging to this absurd notion that a Constitution will make everything better and I'm disgusted that the media and many members of the Democratic leadership haven't taken Bush to task on this. The administration played the optimism card before the elections in Iraq too, but how many people have died since that election? No amount of purple stained fingers can bring back the lives and trust that are long lost from this quagmire.

or 7

or maybe we trained 10,000 new insurgents.

It doesn't matter. It won't work.

Of course it is worse than that: we don't care if it works or not. Our little neoclowns would have liked a passive population and a nice compliant puppet government with a status of forces agreement for their military base of operations in the middle east, but they will settle for a hostile population and a failed state justifying their military bases.


Remember: they are 'draining the swamp' and that Iraq was just step one in their little plan for world domination.

I argued about this with hubby the other night. There have been more than one Iraqi to speak out and say we should get out. I have not seen one demonstration, of Iraqis, stating they support us and we need to stay.

I have read the CIA report that states we are breeding lots more terrorists.

We have stolen jobs from what should be there for the people of that nation. I contend that they are doing nothing more than war profiteering. I am sure there must be more than a little resentment from this.

I can only imagine what the Iraqis must think when they see permanent bases being built on their land. We came in with all of our military might and now it looks like we are staying. I, too, would be resentful.

IF we were making big progress and we truly were helping that country, I might say we should stay. In fact, I am sure there would be much less resistance. I do not see that we are doing any good there except for helping the terrorist exponentially multiply in numbers.

We need to get out and do so as quickly as possible.

demgurl

You want to see an insurgency dry up in a hurry?

Bush Regime Iraq Successes

1. Saddam will no longer sell Iraqi oil via the Euro.

2, A military foothold in the ME. Other than Saudi Arabia.

3, No countries will be able to buy Iraqi oil that the U.S. disapproves of.

4. The Multi-Intl. Oil Corps are reaping great profits, esp. Bush Junta fave ally Saudi Dicktatorshit.

What are the other goals?

The Iraq Constitution will pave the way for another election. This election will be for a "permanent" Govt. of Iraq. Will there be 100+ parties and no actual candidates in this election also? I read that Iraq will be a Parlimentary system, sort of like the UK. Will this election solve a lot of Iraq's problems and nueter the Insurgency?

Take the oil from Saddam and give it to their buddies. That's why they've fought tooth and nail to suppress any suggestion that the oil should be nationalized. As you know.

hasn't anyone of the Dems in Wash laid out a plan like this? Why do they just wring their hands and say "stay the course, stay the course". We need people who can come up with solutions, not just more of the same old, same old. If you decide to run, I'll move to whatever state you run in and vote for you - then I'll move back here.

to engage others in helping Iraq. The U.S. had a chance to send the world a message that the cowboy was not acceptable.

We didn't.

free enough of corporate bucks to propose getting our contractors sticky fingers out of the pie...

There is no reason for Halliburton. There never has been and never will be. All the money that went down that black hole could have done some real good in the region.
We have shown (as a country) that we are fiscally irresponsible and environmentally irresponsible to their country.
I saw a documentary months ago talking to some Iraqi businessmen--one of whom owned a construction company. His point of view basically was that his company was capable of the rebuilding..instead, the work was all outsourced to American companies. This left many of his employees without work, and many of them joined up the resistance to make money to for their families.
When we destroy homes, take away jobs, demolish businesses...people inevitably end up in the streets. As a country over here, we know that the streets can be a dangerous place.
Violence begets violence.
We owe the Iraqi people a way to make a living again and most of them can make a good living repairing the country that we broke.
If we leave them alone, they will rebuild their infrastructure, including the oil fields...and I hope to hell that they are smart enough to never give the US a drop.
I'm all for your plan...but I also think heavy reparations are in order.

Shrub has been thumbing his nose at them for how long now, is the UN willing to help and what would it take to get them there?

I agree with lots of what you say and I support pulling out now. I especially agree with paying the Iraqis to rebuild their country and to run it instead of the Halliburtans of the world.

I see a lot of arguments here in favor of saying because they say a civil war would occur. I say that there already is a Civil War going on to some degree and if we stay 1 day or 10 years, they will have a Civil War anyways.

Is it out of concern for Iraqi's? More monumental hypocracy.
The well being of Iraqi's as a reason to stay is yet another lie we tell ourselves. How long will we torture these people because we can't acknowledge who and what we have become.

A whole people have to become a crucified Christ? Lessons from two thousand years ago are still not learned because we have to be 'good' perfect, without sin and ...right? Once again we will sacrifice anybody and anything rather than confront our imperfect nature and master our own individual fear and mortality.

We need to leave now. This war is over. Nobody won.

Will OUR situation in the world change without these two Corporate Goons getting indignant everytime America tries to interject into their Private War? Would the Quality of Life vastly improve world wide if America was given a voice in the private business of the White House?

I was sick and tired of Bush's shut up and go away this is none of your business attitude the second he looked America in the Camera lense and said "My Government." Oooookay fine. I'll fight you for it King George of the New World Order! Because MY copy of the deed to America says, "We The People" own this country lock, stock, oil barrel, and Bush's ass to boot.

Oh yeah, Booting Bush's Ass is found in, Ironicallu enough, Article II, Section: IV of the Deed. To be followed by Article III, Section: III.

Ladies and Gentlemen, It's time for We The Peopel to place the 2x4 across the White House Door. Lets make this a Permanent Vacation. King George of the New world Order is Persona Non Grata at our White House. All In Favor?

Yes Mr. Republican, Please tell us about all the things our poor stupid Forefathers could not foresee.

for the rest of the millennium, or whatever adjective newt requires, but we need a DRAW DOWN timetable YESTERDAY aka as an EXIT STRAT!!!

now, i know powell got MAD-COW-DISEASE - it's plausible ;-> the M$MWs are OWNED, and 1/3, probably less drank the kool-aide - over & under the counter - but the rest of us know!

Bring'm Home, NOW!


http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

leave the equipment; it's no good anyway!

I didn't see a rule against foreigners here on this forum so I just registered after reading this post.

I am from the Netherlands..... An "ally" of the USA though many dutch people may not agree, certainly not after the last few years. I feel a lot for the USA but I disagree with a lot too.

Like when I am reading this post, it reads like this;

"well we are in Iraq and the current plan is obviously not working so we need something new, hey let's think of a new cunning plan and let's do this and that and after Iraq what shall we "do" next ? Egypt, Lebanon, Syria"

etc.

I was quite surprised reading this, after browsing this forum for a few days because of the Cindy Sheehan thing.

My advice to the US Army is: go home and stay at home. And yes apologize. It is a surprise for me that on this forum ( I know many democrats will probably not agree with most that is said here about the war) people are actually discussing the next strategy for changing the world.

The conservatives are probably right when they say start with Saudi Arabia. For 1 century of western support for this fascist regime has made the muslims all over this planet mad as hell. However, they may be right that SA is "the first", now think: "first of what".

I mean do not bomb it, do not send troops there. Actually, if I were you; don't do anything there. Try a little modesty. Go to the UN. Discuss things there.

When we agree on "SA is the first", make that the first country were you guys *hope* that something will change, while you guys stay at home. After SA is better, *pray* for a next rogue country to get better, while stay at home. Don't make plans how corporations, money, troops and bombs make thinks outside your country better. But first start *hoping* that the US government will get better. I am *hoping* with you.

ps: and I know why you guys on this forum write better than the "freepers"; you have a pretty cool spellchecker.

I would like to say welcome. It is so encouraging to see how this medium has brought people of the world together. Glad you are here.

It's my understanding that the section you are referring to is actually the neocon agenda. I highly doubt anyone in this forum believes in doing anything such as meddling in political affairs of other countries, without them asking for our help. We're polite. :)

I think your advice is perfect. If only more Americans felt that way. I think about half the country, or more, does indeed feel like that. But you'd never know it by watching our televised "news".

And it's much more than just spellchecking. We're cool!

sorry you are right I misunderstood the initial post. It was "neocon krauthammer" or what's his name that made this statement.......

Very stupid of me...

oh well..... anyway it made me register here....... :D

;-)

I think the spellchecker is fairly new - I have used it exactly once. The freepers couldn't spell even WITH a spellchecker! And it's not only spelling, it's their use of words - they mangle the language, just like their hero in the white house. I saw a freeper say she was home schooling her kids, except for the baby, because he was "to" young. Not too, "to". And she's home schooling them. That's where we get our Bush voters......

Glad you registered. We want our troops to come home and STAY home, too!
:hi:

first post, I did too and I'm in the USA...the part that bothered you was put in there to show some of the neocon agenda...I don't know that there are more than a couple of DUers who think that way.
:D
:toast:

It seems these people are killing each other in the name of religion. Would it not make sense to be very strict about keeping religion a private matter, and creating a government where everyone was equal in the eye of the law?

That seems to be the only way to stop the murder, even if there is a constitution.

Perhaps that's already in their so-called constitution. But I want to add that to this post.

so now the Americans should tell them what to be in their constitution ?

I know for a fact that the Saddam Hoessein regime wasn't very religious....Foreign Affairs minister Tariq Aziz, or what's his name, was a christian.

I believe their constitution should be their problem.... Leave it to them. Please.

I love this forum..... It feels so good to see so many Americans with decent thoughts and writings working together in this one place. It is quite unusual in my 10 years internet experience. Sorry to say that.

I hope you guys can fix this mess. Good luck from the other side of the planet.

welcome to DU, Degtyarev, and thank you for your posts.

:hi:

This american thinks we should set a 90 day timetable for pulling all of our troops out. We have nothing to say about what sort of government the Iraqis decide to put together. If the Iraqis would like some help from some real international agency, for example from the UN, then they may ask for it. We have a responsiblity to PAY REPARATIONS to whatever develops from the mess we made.

I made a great statement from the goodness of my heart, and realized the folly. Hey, that's what this forum is for. I'm learning, even if it is rather basic stuff.
Thanks to you, too.

WE do not owe reparations; the neo-cons do. In our country if you sell drugs or are involved in selling drugs, your property is confiscated and used by the government. I believe if you sell an illegal war, your property should be confiscated.

Take the assets of the warmongers and pay back the American people. Reverse the ridiculous tax cut also. In addition, I believe everyone who makes over one million dollars a year, should pay a war tax until our treasury is restored and our war debt paid. Let the ones who benefited pay the price. It appears to be good enough for drug dealers.

Unfortunately I think we, as in we the people, are going to have to take on collective responsibility for what has been done in our name.

So right. I fell in the trap. As though we're required to create their constitution for them. And I thought I was being so smart.
I was affraid that when we leave, they're going to start slaughtering each other even more than they are now. And perhaps there would be something we can do. And without knowing my history, I wouldn't know what to do, if we had to do something. It might be different if it weren't this group of thugs in the Bush administration. But even still, it would make sense that our involvement would only be welcomed if they invited us. I think I've got it right, now. Thanks.

If that were true, they'd all lay down their arms immediately--one of the gravest sins in Islam is to kill another Muslim, after all. They're fighting for power and resources, just like everybody else. The divisions are ethnic, regional, cultural and tribal as much as religious.

That makes total sense. It's saddening. Because if it were just religion, we might be able to solve it easily. Oh dear, now I want to crawl under a rock. Things are looking to be overwhelmingly complex. But nevertheless, this thread is about pulling out. We can do the obvious things first. And thank you for also clarifying my misconception about the situation there.

let's not forget them. I think they are the ones doing the suicide bombings against the civilians and I think they are religious-political. My thought is they would want to establish a strict Islamic theocracy there if they get half a chance.

There are so many divisions there as you mentioned and the divisions are so strong. Saddam was long-lived in his rule because his opponents knew he'd have them killed. I think that's how that country was "kept together" these last decades. It never was a real country, but rather an artificial creation.

I agree with that wholeheartedly, and it is the most devastating critique of the "we have to clean up our own mess" arguments. The mere presence of US/UK/Coalition forces in Iraq is causing the very problems it seeks to eliminate: this is a paradox that no amount of "humanitarian" bartering can untangle. Does this mean that everything will go to peachy keen the moment we leave? No, of course not. Nobody's that naive. There must be some intervention by credible world powers. To put it bluntly, the current administrations in the US and UK are simply not credible on Iraq; they can make no reasonable argument for good faith, and every move they make is interpreted broadly as more of the self-serving pillaging and domestic political hucksterism that has already characterized our efforts from go. The US/UK must withdraw troops immediately, and the Iraqis must seek arbitration from credible powers. The net result will probably be a breaking up of Iraq into separate states. No doubt, a Kurdish state in the north will be anathema to the Turks, a Sunni state in the central area will be anathema to the United States (since it will indicate that the Sunni insurgents have won the fight, which they more or less already have, since they are already in de facto control of the region whenever it is not under assault by reinforced US regiments with massive air support), and a Shiite region in the south will immediately become Greater Iran. But that's the price the US will have to pay for ignorantly, thoughtlessly, and purposely smacking at a hornet's nest. US/UK/Coalition forces must leave Iraq. That much is clear.

...is stupid. The major reason people hate us is because we have supported dictatorships. The enemy of our enemy isn't always our friend. I want my country to be a truly good nation, & that means no support of corrupt dictatorships. Period. I don't care if they hate the same people we do. It's not a good enough reason to be friends with them.

Tammy

...war crimes prosecutions of everyone responsible for the invasion. Put the warmongering American leadership in the dock at The Hague and the world will take notice-- and come to our assistance, I believe. Anything short of that and they'll just let us stew in our own hubris, and deservedly so.

everything the present Admin touches turns to s--t.

Thank you, Will for putting it in to "sane" words.

Time to Get Out! We are the invaders. It is their land, their country. They had nothing to do with Bin Laden. We've killed enough of them. Paraphrasing *: "They've been invaded... I wouldn't like it if I was invaded..."

We've created a breeding ground MHO. The more so-called "insurgents" the longer it last. The longer it last, the more $$$. The longer it continues, PNAC can really claim "MISSION TOTALLY ACCOMPLISHED!"

WMD, stay the course, freedom, women's right, and on and on and on and...

Everyone seems to be trying to solve the problem when there is no consensus of what is the problem.

The best approach that I have heard yet is:

Groups Launch "People's Petition for an Iraq Peace Plan"

Anti-war groups in the United States are announcing a campaign today to build support for a peaceful exit strategy from Iraq. We speak with the primary author of the "People's Petition for an Iraq Peace Plan," longtime activist Tom Hayden.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/16/1326257

How I'd like to see that sick chickenhawk Repuke fuck (and all his brethren) RPG'd.

That would be JUSTICE.

viewing this from outside the US I believe you are deceiving yourself if you think that the world/NATO/Arab League/ UN is going to pull the US chestnuts from the fire.

I found it incomprehensible during your election that there was such misunderstanding in the US about how badly relations have deteriorated since 2000.

Any Canadian government that proposed to send troops to Iraq would be in trouble. We can bend the logic enough to go to Afghanistan, Iraq is a no-go.

Whatever solution will have to be an American one.

My perspective- get out PDQ.

I heard before. How do we know if the UN will work with us, when we are too proud to ask. Every day more die because we are afraid to lose face.

...Finger's on the pulse as always Mr. Pitt.

Clean.

that we have to stay and "fix" it. Unfortunately, the longer we stay, the bigger the mess. It is "us" that are the magnet for most of the violence, even the violence against the Iraqi police forces and Iraqi civilians is mostly due to their cooperation with "the Americans". I think that is the basic truth of the matter.

It is a no win. If we stay and a half-million are killed, then they will say if we hadn't stayed, there would have been a million killed. If we leave and a hundred thousand more die in a civil war, they will say it was because we left. The truth is that no body knows what is going to happen. It is all unpredictable. My hunch is that more will die with us there than will die with us gone.

The UN and the Arab League? Really? I don't think you'll see this administration singing Kum By Ya with them in the near future.

"End the Houston-based contracting of work in Iraq" Well, let me check and see if pigs are flying outside.....nope.

Lets just assume for the moment that your plan were implemented. How long would it take? 1 year? 2 years? 10 years? Consider for a moment that we still have over 33,000 troops in South Korea and they don't even have oil! IF we pull leave Iraq during this administration, Bushco will fuck it up as badly as they did going in. It's more reasonable to foresee that it will take a new (Democratic) administration to undo this fiasco.

I think it's naive to think that some sensible RW diplomats are going to miraculously fix this. I think we are going to have to come to terms with the fact that we are in this for the long haul. Unfortunately, Colon Powell was right, "If you break it, you own it".

many people outside of the War Party are proposing programs that illustrate that in fact "we could just pull out". These efforts should be encouraged.

Of course as things stand now, this administration, which has shown time and again a total unwillingness to admit mistakes, is not likely to do anything but 'stay the course'. What is most important is that we replace War Party incumbants with Peace advocates.

The next time somebody says to you "we can't just leave" you turn around and say "but of course we can, and here are several good proposals for doing just that". Kind of shuts them up.

roud the china shop... it means you CEASE & DESIST or you get arrested or worse, to continue with the popular 'pottery barn' doctrine, some seem to adore...

if it is gonna take IMPEACHMENT as you allude, so be it, but we MUST start planning on bringing our troops HOME, asap and STOP the damage from continuing or worse, ESCALATING!

thats just so we can get to the point of even knowing what we owe... one of dem-dare unknown-knowns ;->

peace

would show in a heartbeat that staying in Iraq is a lose-lose situation.

Of what benefit do our troops serve over there? Being targets for insurgents and terrorists? There's not much else they're doing.

And, for one, our military was NEVER meant to be a reconstruction force. That's what the UN and invaded country's own citizens are for. Not for farming out work to mercenaries and companies that are part of the vast military-industrial complex.

There are two things this administration has managed to do successfully:

1) Find a way to have a sort of economic recovery where the only beneficiaries are corporations and holders of large amounts of stocks.

2) Invade a country to make an even smaller portion of Corporate America experience tremendous windfall profits.

Oh, I guess one more thing:

* Manage to make the U.S. government the most hated and feared than at any other point in history.

We we we we we.........

I'm not in Iraq, you're not in Iraq, what is this "we" shit that I keep hearing everybody saying?

The American military is in Iraq, sent there by George Bush.

Thank you.

I am.

It's "we," whether you like it or not.

Can't wash your hands that easily, sadly.

Not just because our soldiers are there sent by the mad Emperor.

I think an IMMEDIATE withdrawal would do a lot of harm.

It is absolutely clear that U.S. troops should leave Iraq
Imho, the key phrase should be a strict timetable for a complete withdrawal within a year

Shrub will say that this "encourage the terraists", but fuck that, it will encourage all Iraqis to get their country up and running the way they choose. Ideally, after the withdrawal, billions should be paid in reparations to the Iraqi people to help them build their own democratic institutions, but I know, pigs will be flying before that.

edited to say: All this talk of getting other countries involved is just that, talk. Do you really think any Arab nation, or any nation except perhaps Iceland and Palau, would touch Iraq with a ten foot pole?
Sorry, but the U.S. created the mess, they'll have to clean it up..

We need out of Iraq NOW! Unfortunately I don't think that will happen since they have so much oil. I hope I'm wrong. :(

It's a good article, well-thought out. And if the US wanted to pull out, this plan would be a good one to use.

But BushCo. doesn't want to pull out. I think it was Richard Clarke who said, "you can have America controlling Iraq or you can have democracy, but you can't have both."

That's the problem--BushCo. is not going to give up control. This war was fought to benefit the Bush "base--the haves . . . and the have mores." It wasn't fought for freedom and it sure as hell wasn't fought for WMD's.

It was fought so that the US treasury could load 28 tons of 100 dollar bills in shrink wrapped bales on C-130's and fly them to American "contractors" in Iraq.

That IS the plan. There's no exit strategy because Bush isn't planning on exiting. He has exactly what he wants--a war without end on top of massive oil fields. There is no downside for the people who put Bush in office.

If we've already built those things you know there's no way we're leaving anytime soon.

What are NGO's doing to help in Iraq? Does anyone know? I mean, since we know the cronies have their hands in the US Treasury, there's gotta be some way to get some funds to the PEOPLE in Iraq... once they're not living in fear and have some hope for a future, things might improve.

Any ideas?

,...to terrible mess.