Are American citizens about to be SHOT AND MURDERED by a GOVERNMENT?

I mean "our" government? Are we about to CONDONE the shooting of civilians who are in a life-or-death survival situation and are desperate for help?

Just curious.

framed as though sometimes the government needs to step in and kill people to maintain order

But the facts are.. we will see all of it on some special, liekly on Fox. And I'm dead serious, you watch

This is Douches' big Pearl Harbor moment to institute martial law.

don't get rescued because manpower is used to protect wet stuff which is likely to get wetter soon and is probably insured and already been claimed as lost.

Divert resources from rescue to save wet STUFF. There's some interesting values!

Beam Me Up, can I pour you some wine?

that's my cup.

I'm getting depressed over ... it all.

I'll be okay i know, i know.

dp

Take a break from here. Get some rest. Do something life affirming tomorrow.

Take a bag of dog food to a shelter. Somebody there needs to be remembered too. Do a positive thing.

When you get your spunky back, see me, I have lot's of good ideas ;)

-- or something that might have an equivalent effect -- right now.

In any case, you catch my drift. The question is, ARE WE ABOUT TO BE GIVEN A PRECIDENT FOR 'JUSTIFIABLE' SHOOTING OF OUR OWN CITZENS?

If so, what EFFECT do you think this will have upon the citizenry of this country? Will they accept it as "necessary" and, therefore, justifiable? Will they think it is "ok" for the "government" to shoot citizens under certain circumstances?

If so, this will be a most disturbing precident.

I do understand your concern but these are extraordinary measures for extraordinary circumstances. You can't have armies of criminals taking over because there will be a total breakdown of society.

:wtf: Do you NOT think that door swings both ways?

"You can't have armies of criminals taking over because there will be a total breakdown of society."

You do realize that could be applied to the people who are supposed to be in charge of handling this mess, right?

Link please.

Otherwise, it clearly shows you are talking out of your ass.

it's been all over the news that women are being raped there. Do you really think in a situation of such lawlessness, where armed thugs roam the streets robbing, a few rapes aren't going to happen?

They all stressed looting was a desperate act and most was for food and usable items. They scoffed at anyone trying to haul out a big screen TV in NO where there was no electricity or way to get it out.

Police were caught on camera looting. No big deal.

could the government shoot (assassinate) its own citizens?

It has happened in the past -- and I am afraid that we will witness it again.

If it was food and and water and medicine I couldn't condone but I could understand. If they were looting for cash and tv's I agree with you.

themselves and come across scared cops. That is the mess massive gun ownership causes.

especially in these circumstances. These looters are not acting out of need--they are criminals, ex-cons, thugs, thieves, and opportunists who are stealing NOT food, but guns, drugs, dvds, tvs, etc. They have shot at rescue workers and they are out of control.

what - a teenager robbing a dvd player. Come on. Don't lump them all in together. Go after the dangerous ones.

they are thieves and rapists and god-knows what else. They are also causing some of the looted buildings to burn by ripping electrical wiring, etc. They have stolen entire stocks of weapons from sportings goods stores. They have stolen entire stocks of medications from pharmacies. These aren't law-abiding poor people--these are thugs, criminals, opportunists, ex-cons. They DON'T deserve your sympathy or mine. They are the kind of people who torture and make life hell for all the law-abiding poor people during normal situations.

These criminals have shot at rescue workers, and even shot at one over-flying helicopter. They should be dealt with harshly in these times of extreme circumstances.

Take off the rose-colored glasses and see them for what they are.

and you can cast the first stone.

take off your blinders.
dp

why do you feel the need to defend this lowlife? you only hurt the law-abiding poor when you do so. The law-abiding poor have taken refuge on the highway overpasses and in the superdome and many are walking, on foot, out of the city, to get away from crime.

why defend undefendable behavior? What purpose does it serve to do that? Most of these people were NOT taking food, water, etc. They were stealing big ticket items, guns, drugs. They were shooting at rescue workers and there have been reports of them even stealing from hospitals and tipping over boats with sick people inside.

These are criminals.

where do you get your 'reports' of the 'crimes' commited in these devastated areas?

until you put your ass in the swamp AND can report back live ... <cough>

yeh,didn't think so.
dp

If it was in "the swamp," I reckon you'd be happy to have the thugs dealt with quickly and appropriately.

You're romanticising the worst kind of crime. It's bizarre.

and IF it were in the swamp, along with yours, this conversation wouldn't be on the internet.
but maybe you will remember tomorrow while you are enjoying your lunch where the hurricane victims are at the same time.

but that's the point, isn't it? You are unable to put yourself in the place of those in the worst case scenarios, and conceiving something other than ... lunch.

bizarre doesn't even begin to describe it.
dp

typical horsehit from people who are clueless about city life. This kind of shit goes on during normal times, too. Poor law abiding citizens try to cope in their run-down crime infested neighborhoods and they have to fight off the misguided folks who like to make play-pretend at "being liberal". Buddy, let me tell you, being "liberal" should NOT mean you defend criminals. And every single time you defend criminals it means you are slapping the face of all the poor people who live their lives in dignity and respect.

Get a clue.

The mindless rampant consumerism, the endless barrage of "gotta have" advertisement, and they cant afford any of it,

I think the feeling they get is that they're no good anyway,

so who's to impress(?)

They're alienated in their own country, you expect them to respect a corrupt white system that would sooner throw them in jail than give em a ride somewhere safe.

Fuck, now you see the results

typical tripe from the non-elected naybobs of the vigilantee vitriolic.

crawl back under your rock. i don't have to defend my liberal stance here. Nor will i pretend to judge those upon what the circumstances of nature, environment or society have wracked. I will stand with everyman and woman and child that does what they have to do to survive these desperate times.

being Liberal does mean you do not judge those you are not, for in the grand scheme of things, you are. Thus you have my pity.

there is your clue. Make of it what you will.
dp

Put yourself in a New Orlean's situation.

Or are you able to do that?

I would bet that you are from the suburbs, probably have a bit of money and have never ever spent any time in a real poor neighborhood. You probably have NEVER lived in a poor area in your life.

Most poor people don't need people with your attitude in their life or in their neighborhood.
They try to cope with these thugs and criminals every day.

Did you see all the pictures of the people huddling on the overpasses? They were there to get the hell away from the looters and the criminals. Did you see the photos of the people in the Superdome? They went there because they were decent people, who had no desire to stay behind with the criminals intent on robbing and thieving. But in the mind of people who think like you, the criminals are the victims, the looters, the ones who shot at the rescue workers, are the poor souls who need our love. Well bullshit on that. When you excuse the behavior of criminals then you slap the face of every decent law-abiding poor person.

Your whole attitude is a crock of shit. Get a clue, or go back to your suburban house with the neat fence and admit you really don't know what you are talking about. Poor people are just as deserving of peace, dignity, and safety as you are. And when you defend criminals and thugs you show that you simply don't know anything about how hard life can be.

this may surprise you sweetie, but supporting the actions of looters, vandals, criminals, thieves, etc. is NOT a liberal value, even though some incredibly naive people make it seem like it is.

The people who are taking what they need to survive are understandable. Taking food, clothes, shoes, water, and medication and even other stuff is tolerable. However, the violent looters who have fired shots and shot a police officer are not deserving of our sympathy. They are robbing people at gunpoint and have forced an ambulance company to stop evacuating because of safety fears. Disgusting.

there is far far too much sympathy for thugs and criminals from some people. It reveals a gullible innocence inappropiate for these particular circumstances.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

between those who are looting for survival and those violent criminals. CNN just said an hour ago that there is an ambulance company that is stopping evacuations because they are fearing for their safety. There is a distinction between those two groups. One deserves our empathy and one does not. I'm not some heartless wacko conservative who thinks that all looters should be rounded up and shot.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I'd give you more credit for your position, but it's nothing more than perfect common sense.

We are not being told/shown the differences between those who are truly getting things for their and their families survival and the criminals. Those dumbass redneck cops down there are talking about shooting ANY one who has ANY thing in their hands....even tampax. All the while, NO water and food has been able to get to the stuck people deep in the heart of the city.

Louisiana and especially Mississippi are the poorest states in the union.

Certainly people do not NEED nor should they take TVS, JEWELRY, GUNS, nor ROB their neighbors and start fires.........BUT what I ALSO saw a LOT of was diapers, TOILET paper, shoes, DRY clothing, food, beverages, inflatable mattresses and yeah, get some drugs and bandages, pick up a bbq pit and some charcoal and camping gear if necessary...hopefully some people picked up some radios and a LOT of batteries so they can finally find out WHERE THE RESCUERS ARE and/or WHERE TO GO and what the "plans" are (if there are any..sheesh)!!

Meanwhile, I saw a smaller town where people were standing on dry land waiting in lines, mostly white people, at the grocery where that grocery was going to GIVE basic items to people for FREE. NO such thing was happening in downtown New Orleans! It's in the upper 90's with horrid humidity and NO cover/shelter...Zip Zero, Nadda. There are alligators and snakes and broken glass and dead bodies all sorts of hideous debris and filth in the flooded areas that those folks are wading through.

I would do the same thing if I was in deep shit like those folks are. I live in Calif. We KNOW what it takes to keep body and soul together after a calamitous earthquake and no rescue to come for awhile.

This isn't a Rodney King riot, this is a DISASTER!!

I've been GLUED to this event since I learned how dire the situation really is. WHY, for starters didn't the city provide free transport for those who WOULD have left IF they had a car or some gasoline money? Now the authorities/tax payers will have to pay through the nose for their lack of foresight.

Why didn't those idiots provide batteries and satellite phones for the cops, firemen, and other rescue figures?? Short wave even. Where are the pontoon boats and inflatables--I'd like to say where is the military presence and their logistics but THEY are in IRAQ.. I'm screaming at the TV for ALL the lack of needed equipment that hasn't arrived yet; for the lack of contingency plans by the state/city officials. What a huge mess...

If I was the Governor of that state or the Mayor of N.O, I'd be utterly embarrassed for the lack of planning.

I was in the room, about to bitch him out about having Faux on, but one of their newsmen was interviewing, or trying to, a woman who was holding a child about 3...the child looked on the verge of death. He got some ice down to her, and the child revived a bit.

If I had been in a situation like this years ago when my three kids were babies, I would have done anything to keep them alive. I would have stolen, looted, whatever. These people are miserable, they are hurting, and they have been all but abandoned by the federal government.

The so-called president graciously cuts a day or two off of his 5 week vacation...not his only one this year...flies over the area, and makes a speech. He waited 2 days to do this. In the meantime, I have seen people on t.v., shocked, talking about how they don't know where other family members are, these are fellow human beings, and they are in some serious pain.

I refuse to pass judgment on people who are suffering through a tragedy which, of course could not be completely prevented, but made easier if funds had not been diverted, and if the president gave a damn.

'Scuse me, but could you turn down the hyperbole a bit, just a bit? It's getting LOUD. I have mercifully stayed out of this nonsense, but seem drawn to reading the threads regardless like a moth to flame. I guess this is my punishment. Such exaggeration and lack of perspective is beginning to make me physically ill.

They are also causing some of the looted buildings to burn by ripping electrical wiring ...

There is no electricity in New Orleans. It's rather difficult to start a fire by ripping electrical wiring from a building with no electricity running through those wires. I guess if you rubbed them reaaaaaly fast across a combustible surface ...

They are thieves and rapists and god-knows what else ... Yeah, God knows, and I do too. They are people that have been left to rot in what is rapidly turning into a disease infested sewer with no food, no clean water, and no hope while their government, with exceptions too few and sparse to provide anywhere near the kind of relief necessary, does nothing to help them. Has society broken down in the area? Are many of these people hysterical and acting irrationally and criminally? Hell yes, and society broke down, and these people's hopes faltered to an extent to where this behavior seems appropriate to them while President George W. Bush played a guitar.

You can judge when you're still maintaining your sanity after not having eaten a decent meal in three days nor had a fresh drink or after you've spent days wading through hip deep, putrid smelling water and sludge with dead bodies floating and panicked animals screaming from inside buildings as they die and walking on bleeding feet through slime not knowing if you're going to live out the week and wondering if anyone you know is still alive and if you'll ever have a home again.

Until that time, please spare me the moral indignation.

There is a severe problem there with civil order, yes, on that much I thoroughly agree, but this kind of commentary is about as helpful and necessary as concrete in a sinking boat.

You've put it quite succinctly... I've been angry for a couple days over this disaster BUT, I had to laugh a when you used the bit below:

There is no electricity in New Orleans. It's rather difficult to start a fire by ripping electrical wiring from a building with no electricity running through those wires. I guess if you rubbed them reaaaaaly fast across a combustible surface ...

BRAVO Good man (woman?) and thanks for the visual...

SB

of what has been in the planning all along.
When 'stuff' becomes more valuable than life- in such a blatant way, i want off the 'ride'-
i want out of the game.

NOTHING i posses, or might ever possess would mean anything to me given the situation the folks who are being threatened with guns and man-handled to protect THINGS are being treated. This is surreal. and i'm not doing any illicit drugs- though it feels frighteningly like when i used to.

And these Pro-er-tee and auth-or-a-tee people just don't want to imagine what it might be like to be in a destroyed city with no food opresive heat dead bodies everywhere no shelter.. or have empathy for anyone else they are so sure are beneath what THEY would do in the situatiobn safely behind a keyboard..Haughty moralists protecting THINGS because things are more important than LIVES to them..THey will sing the same old tune even if it means they might be an asshole.They don't care about people..They want thier STUFF Protected so they call upon Auth-or-a-tee to justfy bru-tal-it-tee!..

open eyes- or wake hearts-
god... i just hate human selfishness.... and oblivion....
i CAN only imagine what my brothers and sisters in this hell are feeling, thinking, experiencing-
and i can't begrudge than anything.... i'm ashamed that i'm complicit
as a member of this nation, and cannot do more to help them- and that there weren't provisions to help those who needed it the most to find REAL refuge.- To matter more than oil, or tv's or any 'thing' ...

i'm so sorry- so sad. so impotent... to be of real benefit.

And I agree with the 'surreal' quality. What it reminds ME of in this regard is 9/11. Whatever else 9/11 was, it was a tragedy of immense proportions that became a spectacle, the horror of which WAS USED to drive social policy. Much of what is about to unfold in this storm ravaged area directly descends from the implementation of "Homeland Security" after 9/11.

where i can't imagine anything 'good' ever really coming out of this country anymore.
Since the unprecidented selection in 2000- actually all the way back to the 'Ken Starr" garbage, and all the BLAITENT hyprocricy- with the indignant 'right' then the revelations about Gingrich, Hyde, Livingston,Gulliani et al- being given the 'blind eye' while pointing filthy fingers at someone that was doing the 'work' and doing it pretty well- i feel like we are all stuck in this living nightmare-

What does any possession matter???- my child, my neighbor, a PERSON???-
We put police on the ground to 'protect stuff'- while survivors stand on their rooves waving flags and begging for help??? Priorities in this country are so wacked- i'm sorry to be so angry- but i feel like i don't belong in this world-

Thanks for helping me see there are others who feel the same- others i share common values with- what are we 'not' eating or drinking that we aren't 'buying into' this????-

so confused, so sad, and so frustrated..... there but for a simple twist of fate go any one of us- and who knows when 'our' time will come??? Will we want folks to have compassion then??? whay not NOW??

(sorry to scream at you who DO understand- i'm sorry... i'm overwhelmed with grief and dismay at the attitudes of some i 'thought' i knew....)

its a dark period to be sure
not everyone will believe this but i do believe light will shine again
i know it doesnt feel that way and i dont require anyone else to feel as i do just sharing my thoughts

but please know you are never alone
there have been bleak periods all through time
i cant imagine what you and many others must be feeling but please hold on

im glad youre here and expressing your feelings
thats important
its natural to be angry or even depressed certainly and esp right now when this country feels wholly out of balance

i dont know when or how but it will get better
and please take good care of yourself
do what you need to do for yourself

and youre absolutely right - no possession at all is worth much of anything
but we have each other and that matters because none are alone
we just have a lot to get through together

... your kind, wise compassionate words finally unleashed the flood of tears i've been fighting back.....
... this weary old world is so very sad... thank you for your loving caring...

i'm going to go let this sorrow reign..
thank you so much...

blu

and if i could i would give you a tremendous hug and bit of a smile if thats ok

but know im sending those to you right now

:hi:

we need each other and im so glad to be here with everyone

truly mean more than you know...
thank you so very much...
and may you be comforted as welll

g'nite
and many many thanks for being who you are-
blu

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

judged by whoever is holding the gun on you. No need to worry about rights to trials or lawyers or anything. Just shoot and kill if it looks like that is what they're doing.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

He who has the gun has the rule

And, BTW, the word is "DemocratIC".
If you use "democrat" as an adjective on DU,
it gives folks a bad vibe.

That's what Freepers do...don't be like the freepers!:D

People who steal in front of armed police or militia place themselves at terrible risk.

The circumstances are those of a complete lapse of all daily civilized life depends on: the destruction of the necessaries of urban existance destroys the social fabric of interaction between persons in ways that advantage the most ruthless and predatory. Ordinary and amiable persons are those most dependent on the maintainance of social order, and are those who suffer most when it is broken. Predators grow bolder with perceived immunity, and expand their activities to the forcible gratification of every appetite conceivable. Without order, the casualty toll and quantity of grotesque suffering will be greater than it already is and would otherwise be.

terrorist.

Then they came for the THUGS. But I didn't object because I wasn't a thug.

Then they came for the DECENTERS. But I didn't object because I did not dare state my opinion openly.

Finally they came for me and there was no one left.

Have you ever read Ionesco's "Rhinocerous"?

Perhaps you should.

An interesting play.

But otherwise, what is your point?

There is nothing in your customization of the German reverend's lament that seems to bear at all on the topic....

and say ALL looters are turds, is to be a classist, if my understanding of that word is correct.
In that mess, the looters that are truly pilching food/water/meds have wife and kids, maybe parents living there too, back home, that depend on some help. Imagine the guilt trip, "I stoled sumthin...."

Then there's the thugs. They are a part of society too.
Not very welcome, but always will be around. Sadly.

Compassion is one of the virtues.

society takes work. It is COSTLY. But in the long run it pays off with more just and civil citizens.

WE LIVE IN A CRIMINAL SOCIETY. THE BIGGEST CROOKS ARE AT THE TOP. Down below that, all the way down, there are a lot of good people. Not all of them are good, of course, but MOST OF THEM ARE. There may be a few good, honerable people at the top, too, but apparently they aren't in charge.

This is what worries me. We have become a society governed by criminality. The entire executive branch of our currently constituted government IS A CRIMINAL CLASS.

I don't TRUST THEM. I DO NOT TRUST THEM TO TELL ME WHO THE THUGS ARE.

Thank you all very much.

you DO see 'real people'

And the REAL PROBLEM-

Thanks for voicing the ugly truth so beautifuly.
blu

next.

Our attention has turned to this catastrophe unfolding in the south -- a catastrophe that may yet spread much further than most suspect. But however that may be, we need to begin to recall where we were just before this event. I'm thinking specifically of Cindy Sheehan and the incredible LEADERSHIP she is displaying FOR ALL THE REST OF US TO LEARN FROM AND FOLLOW.

Right now, we need to learn to build as many bridges between one another as we can. We are going to NEED one another even more than ever as all this unfolds.

The BIGGEST THUGS IN THIS NATION are looting our treasury and have hijacked our national security apparatus -- including our National Guard -- and are exposing us as defenseless for all the world to see.

No one could make this shit up, but it is happening.

...to the people who suffered under Nazi Germany?

Are you kidding?

Your comparison was both obvious and repulsive. Get some perspective on just what the Nazis were, and what they did. Don't trivialize The Holocaust, because it dangerously softens our collective memory.

weren't there when the "Ordinary and amiable persons" who were "the most dependent on the maintenance of social order" were left behind- The ruthless turned a blind eye when they didn't stop to think of all the thousands of people who had NO WAY of 'leaving' the city-
There were no busses loading up the 'vulnerable' and carrying them off to a 'safe' place, where they would be assured of their basic necessities-
Those who couldn't afford gas-
Those who had no where to go-
Those who didn't have a vehicle- THEY were the 'most vulnerable'

And they were left to drown- Ever try and rescue a drowning person Sir?
Sometimes they will drown YOU in their desperation to survive. Should you blame the victim? Or the 'life-guard' who left the swimmers to the mercy of the waves????

WE create predators SIR- when we allow, or cause people to feel desperate.-

Our hands aren't clean- even if they are white- or a 'lighter shade of pale'

Shouldn't it be saved for genuine victims of oppression? You waste it on armed bands of thugs terrorizing the hapless survivors of a natural disaster. They don't deserve a bleeding heart.

about the 'armed militia' then the blissful ignorance of what real oppression and desperation is truly about is more than 'astounding' it is obscene.

Who is terrorizing 'hapless' survivors??? The police who shove guns in the faces of people with a hand full of sneakers.- or who are grabbing a bunch of booze to drown their sorrows- who ARE the 'genuine victims of opression-?? and who the hell are you to say who needs compassion- that which you call a 'bleeding heart'?

If you had one, you wouldn't need to be asked that question.- Better a bleeding heart than an absent one. Or an artifical one- that can be bought, sold, and pardoned under the name of 'righteousness'.

i've lived in poverty for most of my life- and i've learned that 'things' don't bring people happiness- but the lack of basic necessities can make even the most 'gentle' of people into the most desperate.

Do you not feel guilt when you see the people of Niger feeding their children the maggot infested remains of their livestock? i do, even though we live on the 'bottom of america's food chain' in comparison to the VAST majority of the world, my children and i live like royalty-
Call me anything you like- i'm not ashamed to be low-income OR to care about others.

The situation is a colossal failure of governing authority, and particularly so in its responsibility to safeguard the lives of its citizenry. This is misrule at its worst, without question.

A situation that presently exists, though, must be dealt with as it exists at present. It makes no difference what moved people to their present state. A good person blind with terror and panic may be every bit as destructive to others as a cold and calculating person of innately predatory disposition.

offer them some true 'hope' FIRST- then see how many desperados are left-
Priorities, kind Sir- give them something to hold onto... and see if most don't grasp on for dear life.... THEN protect the 'stuff' if you must.

"Stuff" does not interest me at all: chaos is dangerous, and humans are its principal danger and its principal victims.

we share the most important desire-
to alleviate the suffering of the least empowered as quickly and as thoroughly as possible.

peace-
blu

military killing american citizens? Would this administration really do something like that? :eyes:

It is hard,though, to argue against shooting someone who throws a sick person out of a boat. But the governments lack of action is creating this ugly situation.

How many of these 'looters' are armed now? This is a potential warzone, there are already reports of people shooting at police. It is going to get much, much worse.

YES!! That is precisely the point.

Once again the security infrastructure of our society is failing the American people -- and not by 'accident' but as a result of DECISIONS THAT WERE MADE IN ADVANCE by the current REIGN OF THUGS in Washington DC.

But, if the stories I hear are true... I won't feel too sorry for them if I hear about gunplay

Who knows the truth of the Brazilian man slain in London -- and that is a well publicized matter. Who will be telling the stories TO US about what goes on down there from now on? The people who live there and are living through this HELL, or those employed by corporations with their inherent interests?

going aisle to aisle in flooded store with no checkout clerks at cash registers, as I saw on BBC last night, certainly doesn't send much of a signal that any pretense at law and order is being maintained. Especially when it is the police themselves, according to an old white woman pushing her cart being interviewed, are getting the word out that it's OK to come in and clean off the shelves, the same as the law enforcement officers themselves are doing.

A recent example of this looting phenomenon after catastrophic situations happened in New York City at ground zero. Cops and yes, firefighters, were involved too, sadly, among the looters. Was this story not reported much either?

...have fascism without a healthy dose of shot and murdered citizens.
And as you know, fascism has become quite fashionable.

http://www.karlandkinggeorge.com/Fascism_is_Fashionable.html