CNN just said, US and N.Korea are drifting coser to war.

Just another mess up in a long line of mess ups from the mis-administration.


On edit: yeah, yeah, I know, It's spelled closer.

...and the deficit grows.

My posts usually sink like stones.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=45270&mesg_id=45270&page=2

look at North Korea -- diversion!

If so, pretty scary sh*t...

Especially when you look at how spread thin our armed forces are due to Bush's on going war machine. If he doesn't resume diplomatic talks, this will be a deadly legacy that bush leaves behind.

BUSH???? Diplomatic talks?? Now there's one for the cameras....ha ahahahahahahahahaa

I snickered to my self when I worte that as well.

It is my understanding NK wants to have talks with us. This administration doesn't. I think it is time for GW to stop this "macho" visage and get down to basics. He is still trying to play cowboys and indians. My son stopped that years ago. This is not a child's game. This is our future. If we don't get rid of this administration we are kaput!

I CANNOT understand why the US refuses bilateral talks. It's senseless! Oh yes, and as for "negotiations," we can't because to give an inch on anything would be giving in to "blackmail." These Bushco* jerks understand NOTHING. I also believe they've been cooking intel about N Korea in addition to Iraq and probably Iran. If we end up attacking N Korea, it will be because our hawks wanted it (but they'll blame N Korea). I'm not saying N Korea isn't being stupid, here, but they are reacting to US aggressive behavior. This needn't have come to war--and I still pray it doesn't. It is a LIE to say that negotiation won't work, a lie to justify in advance another US war of aggression.

I am sick with dread. (Please, guys, don't go with the knee-jerk "NKorea is the 'real' threat, not Iraq" line, tempting as it is in our anger about the Iraq invasion. Resist believing that conflagration in Korea is the only answer to a problem the Bush* gang itself, in great measure, created.)

end of rant/ (my excuse--8 years living in S Korea, paying attention, and lots of friends still there to tell me what's going on)

Seriously. Can anybody explain the U.S.'s insistence on multi-laterial talks. The only thing I can imagine is that bilateral discussions would give N. Korea too much credibility (a minor issue if it averts war). Is there anything else I'm missing?

Cooking intel plus disinformation.

Below is a comprehensive review and analysis of the current crisis. The machinations and misrepresentations are examined in detail. The article is quite long discussing the nuclear, economic, political, and diplomatic situation in N.Korea in great detail. The article describes a very disturbing dishonesty by our regime rivaling that preceeding the Iraq invasion.


http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ELI307A.html

The Nuclear Frame-up of North Korea
by Gregory Elich
www.globalresearch.ca 4 July 2003


<Outside the U.S., not everyone bought the story. The South Korean Defense Ministry questioned the assertion that North Korea had already built plutonium nuclear weapons and pointed out that these bombs – "if they exist, would weigh between 2 and 3 tons because of lack of technology to make them lighter." The weight of such weapons would exceed the delivery capability of North Korea’s missiles and bombers. (18) Russian military analysts concluded that North Korea lacked the "military and economic potential" to produce nuclear weapons and that the "existing military potential of the DPRK is quite definitely of a defensive nature." (19) U.S. Undersecretary of State John Bolton visited Russia and presented evidence backing the American accusation of a North Korean nuclear weapons program, hoping to persuade the Russians to support the application of pressure on North Korea. Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Losyukov was distinctly unimpressed with the quality of such evidence, stating that "the Russian side has not yet received any convincing evidence of the existence of such a program." (20) South Korean Unification Minister Jeong Se-Hyun suspected that the U.S. was not being entirely honest. "I am afraid that Kang Sok-Ju’s remarks were quoted without their full context." Lim Dong-Won, South Korean Presidential Advisor for Security and Unification, commented that the timing was suspicious. "The U.S. notified us of the secret program in August <2002>, when Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi planned to visit Pyongyang and the two Koreas embarked on reconnection of railways and roads." (21) Adding to the suspicion concerning the timing of the announcement was the expectation that it would have an effect on the South Korean presidential election scheduled to take place two months later, on December 19.<snip>

during all the talk just before the Iraq war, I kept saying to my husband, "But.....look at what is going on in North Korea. Is it smart to get involved in a war in Iraq, when Iraq does not have the weapon capability of North Korea?"

Bush is blind because he has never had to take the consequences of his actions before.

Clinton depleted the military so badly that we can't take on the whole world at once! It's HILLARY'S FAULT.

I don't think anybody gives a rat's ass about some pundit's opinion, but it must be cleared up that it was Clinton's first Defense Secretary who said that.

This gives this claim more credibility.

with a link to my thread which quotes Perry and neither my reply or original post makes a ripple?
Have I gone invisible?
Is it my deodorant?
It's a puzzlement.
I may go in for a face lift and a name change.
:-(

it's ok...I get it too...

I'm pretty sure.

Iraq was a political ploy. The problem now is that this administration has demolished all of the trust that would be required to make war with North Korea. So, we're going to have one of two outcomes - a nuclear armed NK or a new administration. I think even the GOP will end up getting on board for the second option to prevent the first.

The difference between Kim and Saddam is Saddam had the will, but not the weapons. Kim has both the weapons and the will.

I'm glad I don't live in California.

......maybe they can wake a few people up because with N Korea it won't be 200+ American deaths in a matter of months. It will be 200+ American deaths a day or maybe in a matter of hours.

on edit: N Korea has already promised they WILL use nuclear as well as bio/chemical weapons.

NOW

seems like the same old same old...
economically weaken with sanctions, boost the 'chimera' of a massive army, hold out the 'smoking gun' of nuclear threat and INVADE!!

Good background here
http://www.counterpunch.org/feffer07122003.html

snip-
By bolstering allied forces in South Korea and encouraging Japan to flex some newfound offensive muscles, the U.S. is following through on its own military-first policy. The parallel with Pyongyang is disturbing. Until recently, North Korea pursued a strategy of kangsong taeguk, seeking strong economic and military power. Building up the military was important, but so too were the critical economic reforms that the government had been slowly unveiling in preparation for the big bang of lifting wage and price controls in summer 2002. In March 2003, however, Pyongyang shifted to a military-first policy in response to the current crisis.
snip-
Just when NK is slowly moving to 'market' reforms similar to China--its becomes E-VEEL

Don't people learn

The really sad truth is that Clinton understood Kim Jung Il's need for recognition (pretty much like a spoiled child screaming for attention) and as long as Clinton and the US treated his with some dignity, he was willing to (almost) play ball. At least, get along well enough with the rest of the world to prevent a crisis situation.

Enter the Bush Administration. Steeped in the belief in their own righteousness, as well as the dogged stubornness to refuse to admit that Clinton ever did anything right, they proceed to ignore Il, make derogatory remarks about him, and then classify NK as part of the infamous "Axis of Evil". Kim Jung Il is crazy but he isn't stupid. He knew Bush was going after Iraq come hell or high water and also that Il was walking around with a huge bullseye on his chest.

NK wants direct talks with the US because they want a security agreement....a promise we won't attack. They also want some kind of relations with the US so they can bail their sorry-assed economy out.

If we could put ego aside, we could moderate/own this dictator without spilling an ounce of blood.

As always, your thoughts are welcome.

The US does not want a security agreement. N. Korea's role as regional agitator will allow Japan to rearm and reassume its role in Pan-Asian affairs. By continuing to allow N. Korea to provoke with only the mildest censure, the countries nearest to N. Korea will take the steps necessary to defend themselves and try to defuse the situation.

Bad news is, N. Korea will sell any and all information, and possibly materials, to the highest black market bidder. Do you think they are producing all the fissionable material for THEMSELVES? They don't have the money for the necessary # of missiles to absorb the material.

Nuclear proliferation has happened. The Bush administration is complicit.

Interesting take on the situation.

I may have to think that one through for a minute...or two..


...on edit.....welcome to DU:toast:

(Thanks for the welcome)

Okay, let's imagine that you are deeply in debt (not difficult to imagine these days, IMO)... debt to the point that your creditors are going to file a lawsuit. In order to stave off this debt, you will have to sell everything of value, while keeping your essentials in order to live. You would even sell grandma's engagement ring, your digital video camera... hell, everything that wasn't nailed down.

N. Korea is in such a situation. They do not have he resources to feed their people because they have a defense department much like ours. In fact, the US has been drifting towards the N. Korea/China socioeconomic model for some time. That whole prison/military industrial complex thing. Part of this is smart politics. The only way to ensure a meal these days in N. Korea is to join the armed forces (once again, sort of like the US these days).

B. Korea will continue to posture and threaten and evolve their weapons program, in hopes that the richer nations will come to the table. If that doesn't work, I guarantee they will sell and tell all for a suitable payoff. The N. Korean government will most likely blow the money on themselves and screw the people again, but hey, everyone wants to emulate the GOP these days.

...but there are some differences. The first is that N.Korean agricultural failure and economic collapse were initiated by a series of natural catastrophes that began in 1994, a series of droughts, floods, tidal waves, etc. Of course, this was exacerbated by their lack of arable land and economic organization. Many military personnel were ordinarily allocated to agricultural activity.

Irrigation was damaged by the natural catastrophes and then the closing of two nuclear power stations under the Agreed Framework caused serious power blackouts which affected factory production of spare parts for irrigation and farm equipment. Production and distribution of fertilizers was also adversely affect. When the American junta failed to deliver fuel oil promised under the agreed framework to supplement the huge energy losses, the country was plunged into darkness. Of course, our current administration also failed to deliver the new nuclear power reactors promised to be finished by 2003. Beginning in 2001, our junta began choking off the humanitarian food aid we had been delivering. Except for the top leadership in N.Korea everyone else is starving. Government meetings are often held by candlelight as the country has a huge energy deficit caused largely by their participation in the Agreed Framework and the subsequent American breaches of promise.