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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 10:52 AM
Original message
Why not clean up the NOLA "toxic gumbo" through...
Thermal Depolymerization. How long would it take to build a plant, and run the pipes right to it? Then it can be used forever to process raw sewage. Every city should have one quite frankly. Is there any reason that this cannot be done?
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Lots of reasons--not the least of which
is that there is no one in power who is smart enough to do anymore than stand around and wonder what to do next.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. could it take on the diversity of impurity it will encounter here?
compelling idea.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Yes. TDP can handle anything except radioactives. NT
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satya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Absolutely. The heat even kills the prions that cause mad cow disease.
and along with the oil (something like a light crude #4 IIRC), it produces sterilized water.

For the naysayers who say the Dems never have any new ideas, I think this one's a winner.

http://www.kantor.com/useful/thermo.shtml

Thermodepolymerization -- or "thermal depolymerization" -- is a process that converts stuff into oil. And by "stuff" I mean just about anything: garbage, medical waste, animals and animal parts (e.g., cows with mad-cow disease, or offal from chickens that have been made into McNuggets), used computer parts, tires, and so on, seemingly ad infinitum.

This is not just a theoretical process. It is real, out-of-the-lab stuff happening on an industrial scale. It's being done by ConAgra Foods in Carthage, Missouri -- at one of the company's Butterball Turkey plants, where up to 200 tons of turkeys are being turned into oil every day.

Once more: This is real stuff. Garbage is being turned into oil by a process that's safe, clean, and in use today.

Essentially, thermal depolymerization or TDP mimics a process the earth itself uses to 'process' what gets buried and break it down. Over millions of years, heat and pressure break the bonds that hold these waste products together. TDP accelerates the process. The leading company doing TDP is Changing World Technologies of West Hempstead, N.Y.

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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. This is real? Wowsers.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think that's a damned good idea...
Edited on Mon Sep-05-05 11:04 AM by rateyes
talk about lowering our dependence on foreign oil...and freeing up our landfills...somebody who knows needs to talk to somebody in charge who has something besides shit for brains.

On edit: and put sewage to good use.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. details on
Thermal Depolymerization, please.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. Tell me more about Thermal Depolymerization.
Educate us with a brief summary and hit the high points.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yes please educate us re this Thermal Depolymerization.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
8. Link for details here:
http://www.changingworldtech.com/

They are the company that has the patent. Very green company.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. WOW... nominating for sure!
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
10. From Wikipedia

Thermal depolymerization


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Thermal depolymerization (TDP) is a process for the reduction of complex organic materials (usually waste products of various sorts, often known as biomass) into light crude oil. It mimics the natural geological processes thought to be involved in the production of fossil fuels. Under pressure and heat, long chain polymers of hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon decompose into short-chain petroleum hydrocarbons with a maximum length of around 18 carbons.

History
Thermal depolymerization is similar to the geological processes that produced the fossil fuels used today, except that the technological process occurs in a timeframe measured in hours. Until recently, the human-designed processes were not efficient enough to serve as a practical source of fuel—more energy was required than was produced.

A new approach that exceeded break-even was developed by Illinois microbiologist Paul Baskis in the 1980s and refined over the next fifteen years. The technology was finally developed for commercial use in 1996 by Changing World Technologies. Brian Appel (CEO of Changing World Technologies) took the technology in 2001 and expanded and changed it into TCP and has applied for a patent. A Thermal Depolymerization demonstration plant was completed in 1999 in Philadelphia by Thermal Depolymerization, LLC, and the first full-scale commercial plant was constructed in Carthage, Missouri, about 100 yards (100 m) from ConAgra Foods' massive Butterball Turkey plant, where it is expected to process about 200 tons of turkey waste into 500 barrels (21,000 US gallons or 80,000 liters) of oil per day.


Theory and process
Previous methods to create hydrocarbons from depolymerization expend a lot of energy to remove water from the materials. This hydrous pyrolysis method instead uses water to improve the heating process and contribute hydrogen from water to the reactions.

The feedstock material is first ground into small chunks, and mixed with water if it is especially dry. It is then fed into a reaction chamber where it is heated to around 250 °C and subjected to 600 lbf/in² (4 MPa) for approximately 15 minutes, after which the pressure is rapidly released to boil off most of the water. The result is a mix of crude hydrocarbons and solid minerals, which are separated out. The hydrocarbons are sent to a second-stage reactor where they are heated to 500 °C, further breaking down the longer chains, and the resulting mix of hydrocarbons is then distilled in a manner similar to conventional oil refining.

Working with turkey offal as the feedstock, the process proved to have yield efficiencies of approximately 85%; in other words, the energy required to process materials could be supplied by using 15% of the petroleum output. Alternatively, one could consider the energy efficiency of the process to be 560% (85 units of energy produced for 15 units of energy consumed). The company claims that 15 to 20% of feedstock energy is used to provide energy for the plant. The remaining energy is available in the converted product. Higher efficiencies may be possible with drier and more carbon-rich feedstocks, such as waste plastic.

By comparison, the current processes used to produce ethanol and biodiesel from agricultural sources have energy efficiencies in the 320% range when the energy used to produce the feedstocks is considered (in this case, usually sugar cane, corn, soybeans and the like).

The process breaks down almost all materials that are fed into it. TDP even efficiently breaks down many types of hazardous materials, such as poisons and difficult-to-destroy biological agents such as prions.

...snip

Limitations
The process only breaks long molecules into shorter ones. Longer molecules are not created, so short molecules such as carbon dioxide or methane can not be converted to oil through this process. Nevertheless, it is interesting that the turkey-processing plant is creating fuel from atmospheric carbon dioxide which was collected by the growing plants which provided food for the turkeys.

The process can break down organic poisons, due to breaking chemical bonds and destroying the molecular shape needed for the poison's activity. It is highly effective at killing pathogens, specifically including prions. However, it cannot remove radioactivity from radioactive waste nor can it eliminate toxicity from heavy metals — both would require transmuting elements, which chemical reactions cannot do.

The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that in 2001 there were 229 million tons of municipal solid waste, or 4.4 pounds generated per day per person in the USA. <2> Industrial facilities in the USA create 7.6 billion tons of industrial wastes each year and, as a whole, the USA creates over 12 billion tons of total waste. <3>

Many agricultural and animal wastes could be processed, but many of these are already used as fertilizer, animal feed, and in some cases as feedstock for papermills or as boiler fuel.


Current status
According to a recent article by Fortune Magazine, the Carthage plant is currently producing about 400 barrels per day of crude oil. This oil is being refined as No. 2 (a standard grade oil which is used for diesel and gasoline) and No. 4 (a lower grade oil used in industrial heating).

Reports in 2004 claimed that the facility was selling products at 10% below the price of equivalent oil, but its production costs were low enough that the plant produced a profit.
At the time it was paying for turkey waste. The plant has consumed 270 tons of turkey offal (the full output of the turkey processing plant) and 20 tons of egg production waste daily. In April 2005 the plant was reported to be running at a loss.


More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization
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satya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
11. Link to an excellent primer written by Silverhair:
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Lots of info there.
Thanks!
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satya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. oops, replied to wrong post. n/t
Edited on Mon Sep-05-05 12:01 PM by satya
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. Just a quick read through
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization

This seems like a process for dealing with significant solid mass of material with carbon chains. Even though the process includes water, I believe it would be no more than 10% or so by volume and probably significantly less than that. The more water that is involved the more input energy would be required to heat it and reduce the efficiency.

But it is certainly a useful technology.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. After the water is pumped out of NOLA...
there is going to be a hell of a lot of organic material left to clean up...why not put it to good use?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. The major consideration
would be the collection of the useful material without also having a lot of useless material go into the process and kill the efficiency. I'm in the recycling business, a completely different waste stream, but this is usually the main hurdle.

It would probably make more sense to use that process on waste streams that are more homogenous and efficient to convert.

It would be a huge task (bigger than you probably imagine)is all I am saying, not impossible.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. As I understand the process,
any carbon-based material is acceptable. I'm not certain how water affects the process, but the Discover magazine articles I've read on it suggest biological material is not only acceptable but actually desireable- they used turkey offal as an example, and I know we in the animal kingdom are so many bags of water, so I don't suppose using tainted water in the process would be much of a problem. I just don't know how much usable material would result.
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FightingIrish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
14. If we became dependent on human waste instead of oil
Bush and Cheney would find a way to monopolize shit.
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satya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. LOL! Well, they've already cornered that market, haven't they? nt
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Well, on Bullshit, anyway....
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Talismom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. LOL! You got that right! n/t
:rofl:
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. ROFLMAO....maybe it would give them an incentive...
to get their shit together!!

:rofl:
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Cheney is already one of the investors in Changing World Technologies,
the company that has already built two plants using this technique.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. kicked and nominated
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
18. not all of the "toxic gumbo" contamination is simple hydrocarbons
.
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satya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
23. While bu$hco has been trying the corner the market on fossil fuels
the rest of the world has moved into the 21st century. Switzerland, for instance, has been using another process to create fuel from biomass for nearly 15 years:

http://www.kompogas.ch/en/index.html
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
27. Bookmarking. n/t
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
29. But, but...I wanted to see chimp and Laura froced to scrub NOWA on
theeir hands and knees.
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checks-n-balances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-05-05 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. THX - have you sent in your idea to CNN/MSNBC/NBC/ABC/BBC yet??
Also to someone on the DNC? RFK, Jr. or Al Gore (2 great environmental champions?)

For God's sake, don't send it to any rethugs or the idea will either die or they'll take full credit for it.

Now that we've opined about it, please send it to someone who will listen & follow through asap!!
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