We ALL worked our Butts off for Kerry/Edwards so Don't spout DLC Crap

at those of us who don't like what we see with the Hillary/Bill alliance with Bushes Parents "Poppy and Dragon Lady."

Anyone who was too young or not involved in the Democratic Cause, yet, who has watched Bill and Hillary in the last year has BIG PROBLEMS with their DLC philosophy. Those of us who are now considered the "Far Left/Fringe Left" like Cindy Sheehan get what the "deal is" here.

I'm more sickened by those of you who have been here with me all these years doing the Clinton apologia than anyone knew who honestly doesn't know the history of the Clintons.

I didn't know it until I was here long enough to get informed and start reading and it filled in all those years of history where I was trying to work and live my life just to get along.

You who come and trash those of us working to build a BETTER Democratic Party come and trash and harpie on those of us who have heard the same old "Chess Game Crap" over and over and over.

Where were you when a second election was stolen from us with faulty voting machines and thousands, maybe millions of voters who were disenfranchised in this last election. Early voting alone cost us Democrats thousands of votes in my state and it was our Democratic Party who told us to get everyone to use the "Early Voting" where there weren't enough provisional ballots or machines or poll workers to tally the early votes. How do you explain that.

Those of us who worked hard for Kerry/Edwards were totally trashed when Kerry gave up the fight with Ohio fraud reports coming in from HIS OWN DEM ACTIVISTS.

You all can trash those of us who are sickened that Bill Clinton seems to be trying to be the leader of our "woebegone party" as he chats it up with Babs and Poppy and the NYT's and WaPo report that Poppy looks on Bill as the son he wishes he had.

Dream on with the DLC. There will be a party breach...because many of us are MAD AS HELL AND NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS CORPORATE DLC SHIT ANYMORE.

You can snipe and snicker at us all you want...you can accuse us of being Freepers and disloyalists and disruptionists and whatever you want...but the Democratic Party is not standing up for the PEOPLE.

And, if we lose every election from now til the cows come home at least SOME OF US HAVE PRINCIPLES...so troll on...and trash on and hack away at your fellow DU'ers and Dem travelers. You know what...the great SPLIT is going to happen whether you trash us or not.

Many DU'ers applaud "Truth to Power" unless it's "their own Ox" that get's gored in the process... It's disgusting.

I hate the DLC. They have run our party into the ground. They care more about Republicans than the people in their own party! If they don't leave the Democrats, I will! I want to be in a party that will take Bush on, even if we have to form a new one.

Tammy

But I don't see anything wrong with Clinton and Poppy working together on tsunami relief and hurricane relief. This doesn't help Chimpy in my book. :)

Relief. When our Dem Party is in such trouble why is it for Katrina the
Bush, Clinton Katrina Relief?

You have NO PROBLEM with that? You would be happy having Hillary/Bill as a Dem Reduz..just because you think they will do better than Poppy skipped over by Clinton and now it will be Clinton (with Hillary as figure head) once again?

Are you aware that our founding fathers did frown upon Kings and Dynasties? Do you think that Dynasties should prevail?

Frankly, some of us would have been fine with a Kennedy Dynasty but the Right Wing/Corporate Powers and Banking Interests wouldn't allow that...and the Kennedy's didn't play the "Elitist" game.

How many Kennedy's are left alive? How many Bushes are there out there waiting in line. Most Americans don't even realize Bush has more brothers than Jeb and even a sister?

And, why is it in Bill's interest to chat them up after what they did to him. Or, did he go along with what they did to him? Or, is he now wanting to redeem his presidency and so has fallen in with "The Enemy.'

Or, maybe you don't see the Bushes and their power dynasty and corporate control that goes back over a Century in America as a threat?

maybe you haven't read Kevin Phillips Book about the "Bush Dynasty" maybe you aren't aware of how far back the Bushes go. Maybe you are taken in by his fake "Texas Twang" and his cowboy boots and down home compassion for his "own kind.'

Maybe you have been on this site long...and read what our Government has been up to for decades since WWII ...or maybe you have been here for a long time on DU and think it's all :tinfoilhat:

I don't know...but I'm telling you...there are many, many of us Democrats who aren't going to put up with this crap any longer. And if you here want to trash us go ahead....but our skins are hardened...we are strong...and we aren't going away.

Poppy and Mama Bush calling Clinton "their son"? Heh. I don't like the DLC either. Too much corporations involved. I want my real democratic party back. The party of Kennedy. The party of FDR.

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Corporate america is the downfall of the party. I since then have been independent voter. Though Democrat/progressive at heart all my life. The intrusion of the DLC have always been the downfall of the party. Get rid of them and go back to our roots. MHO

will not have my vote, period. I can not believe that both Babs and
our former prez, would jeer at the victims of this tragedy. I
will never support DLC or any republican lite that continues to
risk the lives of our fellow citizens for adventurism and corporate
profit.

Shame to not be able to dream of better things for all the world.

Thanks.

the brunt of the jabs and attacks. Who the hell cares. Without Idealists this world would be even sorrier than what it is under the Bush Crime Family with the Right Wing Idealogues in the Think Tanks who deliver their "daily talking points" so they don't go "off message."

Sometimes here...there's little breathing roomfor the idealists and the romatics who often provide the creative vision for new movments and new forces that transform society.

being an idealist is that when you catch the brunt of it you realize once again why you are who you are and how much you are truly needed. I get mad but I never let my dreams go away.

We need everyone but not everyone realizes it yet.

Sometimes you can't tell it here though.

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These are the years that the DLC "leadership" has lost us major elections. Each time, we held our noses and voted for their milquetoast moderate offerings in search of an elusive swing voter who never manifested. Given their effectiveness, we might as well have voted republican. Then, they have the nerve to attack the base of the Democratic party as loony and ineffectual. Fuck you, DLC.

Conviction is everything.

I can't manufacture real or false conviction out of disinterest, disappointment, disillusionment, or reluctance. If the party wants me to vote with conviction, they'll have to give me a candidate with conviction. One who stands firm and is willing to work for and fight for the issues I value.

...so why does the DLC keep trying their losing strategy? I think it's better to appeal to our base & hopefully inspire people who don't usually vote. You can't have one party, anyway. The DLC seems to want only the Republican Party. Sorry, but if you want a free country there has to be more than one point of view.

Tammy

Ariana Huffington was right. Last fall on Bill Maher's show she stated that we shouldn't be going after the swing voter, we should go after the non-voter!

If the dems would get back to solid LIBERAL values (& I use that word proudly!), we could get millions off their asses & back into the voting booths, possibly even enough to overcome election fraud. I honestly believe these potential voters don't see enough difference between the repubs & the DLC dems. Hell, I don't either!

In Thom Hartmann's book, We the People: A Call to Take Back America he states "The 'new conservatives' who've seized the Republican Party and (through the DLC) are nipping at the heels of the Democratic Party, are not our parents' conservatives."

Be afraid, be very afraid. The DCL is not our friend.


BTW, I highly recommend Thom's book. It is a very quick read -- took me an hour. It is an excellent reminder of what our founding fathers wanted for this country. Also an excellent read for children, as it is written in a comic book fashion.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=we+the+people%3A+a+call+to+take+back+america&userid=PP3owA3CwM&cds2Pid=946

Control freaks who can't tolerate anyone whose opinions are different from theirs are getting tiresome. From now, anyone who whines the freeper, troll, eating our own, nonsense is going on my ignore list. It's inexcusable to hurl such epithets at long-time DUers.

Another sign of doom--supposed democrats ringing 100s on the irony meter.

a DNC Chat Room where you would find many more like minds... I rarely put DU'ers on "ignore." I like to hear the different viewpoints.

But, don't think that if you become a Troll or a Disrupter to those you disagree with, that I and others won't find that hitting that "ignore" thingy works just fine.

Then you can applaud yourself on how willing you are to listen to all viewpoints of a narrow group of gripers and venters who equate losing elections with idealism.

And in my book, anyone who likes the idea of democrats losing elections and accuses successful democrats of only wanting to be elected and of bad faith is the troll and disruper.

They certainly aren't democrats. Hell, I bet you are proud that I just said that.

I said that I rarely put folks on ignore but if you become like a troll then I and probably others will put you on "ignore" at some point. Being on "Ignore" means we don't want to see you don't have to..if you are annoying to us. You can post your heart out. But, when you find that there are fewer and fewer folks who answer you...because they can't see your posts...you might find yourself happier at more Mainstream Democratic Site. Or, maybe you would be happier there now since you read posts that annoy you so much here.

:shrug:

...by the Clinton Defenders. One poster actually wrote that those who disagreed with Clinton were trying to destroy the party and replace it with "communism". How does one even begin to relate to this type of extreme rhetoric that looks more at home on the Right?

I would like to remind everyone that it was Clinton and the DLC that picked up where Reagan left off with their 'era of big government is over' philosophy that gave Bush the Lesser the opening to finish the job.

Many of us refuse to be like the RWingers that dare not criticize their own leadership. That type of sheep mentality has no place in the DEMOCRATIC party.

Wow. I blew a gasket early today and had to break before I blew my mind. Really? It really is a big tent party now isn't it?

:hi: Q I miss seeing you around here as much as I used to.

...to post as much as I used to. The Bush/DLC economy is killing everyone that hasn't sold out to BushCo.

And frankly...I'm tired of arguing with the new influx of DLC/Corporate party defenders. They seem to be coming out of the woodwork to show their disdain for the traditional values and principles of the party.

They refuse to understand or simply don't care that the DLC is driving lifelong Democrats away from the party with their shallow politics and enabling/complicity with the Bush neo/cons/fascists.

Now they're screaming because we want 'our' leadership to actively oppose the most corrupt and criminal White House this country has ever seen.

doing OK, like I said I do miss reading your posts. Please take care and come back as often as you can. There are still a good many of us who do not feel that way.

have you noticed that. Whatever...no need to reply. We all gotta do what we gotta do when the time permits and the "spirit" moves us.

Nice to see ya! but, understand..

...that the Democratic leadership's inaction is actually acceptable to so many. Something is seriously wrong with this type of thinking. Why wouldn't rank and file Dems want their leadership to fight for them and to protect and defend their Constitution?

The balance of power is far too one sided in our nation's capital. The executive branch seems to think they're no longer required to share any kind of power with Democrats. How do Democrats respond? By changing their own agenda to please the Bushies.

The Democratic party seems to be suffering the same fate as the GOP: a small group of corporate-financed political hacks have taken over and abandoned the party of the People. But the biggest insult is that we're simply expected to shut up and take it for the sake of 'party unity'.

Stupid White Men in the chapter, Democrats, DOA, Bill Clinton was the best republican President this country's ever seen.

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Blame the GOP judges who are dragging their feet.

If you knew ANYTHING at all about Kerry, you would know that if he had the evidence needed he would use it.

You don't fight to expose BCCI for 5 years without ANY help from even your own party and while being shot down daily by all of DC and their paid press, just to roll over later. Kerry isn't wired like that. No matter HOW loudly his detractors shout and repeat their lies against him.

Dean is making the Sec of State races THE target for 2006. Cam Kerry is likely running in Mass. That tells me that they plan to get access to the machines AND to those who program and operate them through the legal and binding route. I trust they intend to prove once and for all that the machines were rigged.

Reform in Mecklinberg County. We've found someone for Cabbarus...but Charlotte is our biggest problem with voting machines. I was hoping you would know someone. We've tried and found some good folks for other counties at our District Dem meeting...but our Mecklinberg folks just don't seem to be there.

We really need help finding someone who will monitor your County Elections Commission and see what machines they are purchasing and if they conform to the new Bill we worked so hard to pass.

Please PM me, again, if you can find someone...

I defended Bill when nobody else did, because that's what was best for America back then. But now, is now.

Thanks!

Well said. :toast:

....how long are we going to maintain this facade of a 'peoples' party when we all know the corporations are ruling the roost?....

....we shouldn't have to 'force' the Democratic Party into supporting traditional Democratic Party values....if the Democatic Party can't be made to support traditional Democratic Party values then we need to build a party that will because the need out here is just too great....

....the sooner we begin to build, the sooner it will become reality....the need is not going to go away....

Meanwhile, take a look at who doesn't even bother to read before they bleat:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2035218

So sick of this unreasonable froth.

it? :shrug: I'm one of those who does try to read a whole post and even go to the link if it interests me. There are lots of other DU'ers just like me. But, when DU is flooded with one line posts with nothing beyond the subject line, I can see why some folks give up and scan. This all started a few months ago...these one line subject lines that are "teasers" with maybe a word or two in the body and no substance.

I find it hard to understand why you would brag on this thread about posting a "teaser" subject line with a follow up "Gotcha" just to see how many posters you could reel in. It has nothing to do with my original post, here.

:eyes:

I know of one, maybe two people who can present a somewhat compelling argument against the DLC (and even then, not all the time, instead choosing to veer into manipulative tactics). The rest are largely a herd who want someone to blame or rage at or something, I don't know, but it isn't reasoned nor does it promote reason. When you're threatening to tear up the party over something, accuracy counts.

Post #31 is prime example of what you are talking about!

:eyes:

And I'm certainly not against criticism (which, yes, is what I'm giving) or new direction. But people have to be smart about it, and if people want something, they should at least think of a practical means to get what they want. Threatening to split from the party over one's own sensitivities, or issues that most of the rank and file aren't even aware of, are not respectful of the rest of the people within it, who do all of us here a favor by sticking with us.

:rofl:

I know of one, maybe two people who can present a somewhat compelling argument against the DLC (and even then, not all the time, instead choosing to veer into manipulative tactics).

IMPLICATION: While those two people have presented me with compelling arguments, I choose to ignore them, perhaps because they cannot present that argument effectively all the time. Sometimes they are unable to do it. Other times I get upset because their logic trips me up.


The rest are largely a herd

IMPLICATION: I am the the free thinker here. Everyone else is like some sort of animal whose social structure is a herd.

who want someone to blame or rage at or something,

IMPLICATION: Those who disagree with me really are not concerned about winning or moving forward teh democratic ideals that resonate with them. They are irrational people who harbor so much anger that all they are interested in is blaming or raging against something. In fact, it doesn't even matter what that something is, as long as they can rage. This clearly demonstrates why we shouldn't consider their arguments.

I don't know, but it isn't reasoned nor does it promote reason.

IMPLICATION: Sometimes I just get so tired of trying to talk sense into these people whose arguments have no basis in reason

When you're threatening to tear up the party over something,
accuracy counts.

IMPLICATION: ? - I have no fucking idea how to unpack that phrase.

IMPLICATION: While those two people have presented me with compelling arguments, I choose to ignore them, perhaps because they cannot present that argument effectively all the time. Sometimes they are unable to do it. Other times I get upset because their logic trips me up.

Nope. Please review.

IMPLICATION: I am the the free thinker here. Everyone else is like some sort of animal whose social structure is a herd.

IMPLICATION: Those who disagree with me really are not concerned about winning or moving forward teh democratic ideals that resonate with them. They are irrational people who harbor so much anger that all they are interested in is blaming or raging against something. In fact, it doesn't even matter what that something is, as long as they can rage. This clearly demonstrates why we shouldn't consider their arguments.

IMPLICATION: Sometimes I just get so tired of trying to talk sense into these people whose arguments have no basis in reason

Please refer to the thread I posted originally for a good solid example of herd behavior and unreason.

IMPLICATION: ? - I have no fucking idea how to unpack that phrase.

Ironically, it's the most important one, and relies on you knowing the context and meaning of this thread.

:)

...and purposely misleading?
Posting fabricated quotes at DU and then pretending that somehow a point was proved???

Something was proved in that thread, but not what the OP intended.

The hypocrite is blind to his hypocrisy.




The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

am older guy, kent state sds student in late sixties. pissed as hell. clin psych now. won't ever support dlc and corporatists. If were king for a day I'd truly hang the whole lot along with bilderbergers, FRC and the rest of the anti-egalitarians.

He's still involved and they have a court hearing August 2006. If you were involved in the voting fraud or kept up with it then you would know this.

the fucking hurricane!

Many here have attested to that fact.

Gee, I got an email asking for help for the victims of Katrina. With a link to the Red Cross. And on his website he posted the link to MoveOn's Hurricane Housing almost as soon as they started it.

I also got an email from John Edwards, and from Wes Clark (a day later). Guess they were "fundraising for themselves" too?

Is this a ritual we should look forward too?

Woulda been okay if it wasn't a rant against fellow DUers. If it were a rant against public DLC spokespeople that would have been in bounds.

But I don't much like it when DUers shout at DUers. And I'm pretty sure it's against board rules as well.

Because, much as some folks here may dislike the DLC, they have a perfect right to express their opinion here as long as they aren't abusive. And to me, this is a rant against them expressing their opinions here.

...and they've refined it to the point where seemingly no traction can be gained against it. There is no outrage that it can't finesse, no opposition that it can't neutralize. It is an apocalyptic beast.

Sadly, I see little chance of a critical mass waking up to its machinations before it's too late. And I've spent every waking hour for two and a half years scratching for any sign of hope. But you see how much mileage they continue to get out of the same deceptions.

I'm with you. We will prevail, or we will go down together. But the rate things are going, soon I fear it will be "every man for himself".

There is no chance of reaching the masses of disaffected folks who don't bother to vote unless we offer them a REAL alternative to the same old crap they've been seeing for the past twenty years.

Apparently the only candidates that can pass to the final round are the ones cleared by the DLC...whom, I must remind everyone, have lost to the man who has turned out to be the worst President in American history.

Two elections! Against a raging moron with delusions of grandeur. We couldn't field a candidate who could beat this creep hands down?

It might help if we didn't select candidates who bring a pair of boxing gloves to a gunfight.

Sorry to those who can't figure out that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is absolutely fucking insane.

DLCers might represent the Democratic politicos here and elsewhere, but they DON'T represent the common American. And, thus, the common American doesn't vote for them. Or vote at all, for that matter. Why vote for more of the same?

what's up with that?

KoKo01 of 28,000 plus posts speaks for me. Did anyone see the (sadly) tongue in cheek post titled something like "Breaking breaking breaking News This is Big" and it described a fantasy scene on the Capital Steps with Hilary saying "Have you had enough of the bull shit?"
I bought the ruse hook line and sinker for one glorious minute and then my stomach fell to my knees as I realized it was a joke. I was pissed for a good while but now I realize the obvious in a sort of epiphany.

Why can't Hilary say that? Why aren't my dem leader kicking blood curdling ass right now in the midst of thousands of needless dead? Why????...because they are sold out. If they behaved as the parody of their own spineless behavior fantasized they could set the world on fire and I mean that in the good sense, not the way GW will because of their cowardice.

and has to rise above political concerns in MOST instances. Not that I think I will convince you, or anyone else. Just voicing my opinion. The man has my utmost respect.

I also believe that he was bought and paid for by Corproate America. It has be always the lesser of two evils for the last twenty years to a point that you can hardly tell the two parties apart.

Do you think that the founding fathers ever thought that it would come down to two dominate parties. How often have you heard the term... the lesser of two evils...and ask yourself why?

is that the founders would not have liked the current two-party system. I believe it was Washington who didn't want parties at all.

I wonder, though, is a lesser evil better than a lesser good? Not that I think Clinton is a lesser anything.

It's been said that "the good is the enemy of the best." I believe Clinton-hating is simply an example of "mediocrity cannot stand excellence."

this Clinton/Bush thing is driving me nuts!!! Political posturing? Hillary doesn't want to be branded as a raving, lunatic, liberal?
They've caved.

...or misunderstood the motives of those who want to see the DLC's influence removed from the party. They make it sound as if we simply have a difference of opinion on how to run the party. The issue is much broader than that.

'Our' objection is grounded in the fact that they have literally taken over the party, presumed to speak for the majority and are helping to protect the Bush government.

Bush, Cheney and their vast group of war/disaster profiteering cronies have committed crimes against the United States and its people. It's not just bad judgment for Clinton and other Democrats to work and cooperate with them...it's beginning to look like they're complicit.

All of this not only makes the entire Democratic party appear as if they're willing to accept or ignore corruption...it makes it much more difficult to investigate and prosecute the Bush government and hold them accountable.

Party unity shouldn't have to come at the expense of accepting lies, deception and working with those who hate Democracy and think that the Little People shouldn't have a voice in their own party and government.

In times like these...silence is indeed betrayal.

Hey KoKo, you know me, you know where I stand. I've been speaking out against Clinton, the DLC and the corporate whores in our party since I got here. However I cannot find fault with Clinton teaming with Bush Sr in order to raise money. Yes, they're propping up the Boy Chimp. But as they have proven with the tsunami relierf drive, they are capable of raising tremendous amounts of cash together, much more than they could raise seperately. Clinton can talk to the groups that donate to the left, such as the Trial Lawyers Assoc. while Bush can talk to those on the right, such as Big Oil. Together, they do more than they would seperately. And quite frankly the more money, the better.

In this time of need, I'm not going to knock a fundraising team that is producing good results, we need all the money we can. Yes, I despise both men, and I think that both are corporate whores of the highest order. But in this particular instance they are doing good, and in my book that buys them a little slack.

But don't worry, as soon as the immediate crisis is over they will both be back to their old ways, and I will join you in justifiably slamming them.

:applause:

I stood on doorsteps, I manned phones...I spoke with other workers, who mainly had support Kucinich, Dean and Clark...and am now amazed that I cannot be angry at a man who would crawl into bed with these monsters.

Screw the DLC. Not only have they proven themselves good at ONE thing - losing elections - they do it by screwing the Democratic base. If the Democratic Party hadn't gone so far to the right, ala Clinton, there would never have been a Ralph Nader in 2000 taking 2.7% of the vote.

The DLC will be the end of the Democratic Party, and considering the people on it, maybe that's what they want.