REALLY. Let's get serious. NO local government could have handled...

... a catastrophe on such a scale as Hurricane Katrina. Not even a local government with well-stocked coffers. You know that. I know that. Everyone knows that (deep in their hearts, whether they will admit it or not, be they conservative, or liberal, or whatever).

This type of event is the very reason we have the Department of Homeland Security, and FEMA, and the military, etc. It's a once in a lifetime event, with national implications. Doesn't every conservative believe that the reason the federal government even EXISTS, above all else, is TO PROTECT US?

Mayor Nagin and Gov. Blanco urged a full voluntary evacuation, and ordered a full mandatory evacuation, as early as they could, and as late as they could. Speaking as someone with a lifetime's experience at it, that's what it's like living in a hurricane zone. You cannot get everyone out if the worst happens. It is, simply, impossible. That they got 80% out, and most of the rest to shelters, was an incredible success that saved unold thousands of lives.

As for rescue and initial recovery, just look at the local N.O. paper's archived editions from the day of the storm on (Times Picayune, http://nola.com). You'll see lots of pictures of local firemen, police and ambulance workers rescuing people. You'll see references to city buses being used to evacuate many who couldn't leave to the Superdome, which was made CLEAR to be a shelter of last resort, and merely a place to put a relatively safe roof over people's heads. The Superdome had water for everyone for a few days, and food and medical supplies for the infirmed. People were urged to bring their own food and water. This was for THOUSANDS of people.

But that situation could only last a couple of days, and I don't think anyone could reasonably expect more.

I think they could, however, reasonably expect the cavalry to come when the nation suffers from the worst natural disaster in its history.

There are only so many local firemen, and policemen, and ambulance workers, etc. in the city (in any city). Most of them, no doubt, were either trapped themselves or saving their own families' lives in the initial aftermath. And I suppose, regarding those school buses left sitting in the water, that we were supposed to tell the city's school bus drivers that they were now emergency workers expected to put their lives on the line right up to the storm (damn the safety of their own families, and the fact that the buses actually run on gas, and which was in desperately short supply). Or I suppose we could have pulled the already too few policemen and fireman off of their other rescue duties to drive buses.

In the crucial 2-3 days after the storm, all the press, and the federal government, could think about was the unruly mobs, and the looting... all the while handwringing "Oh my! What do we do! It's SO DANGEROUS!!"

Well OF COURSE there were unruly mobs!! Of COURSE there was looting!!

PEOPLE WERE STARVING!!

PEOPLE WERE DYING!!

Now, I suppose the City of Houston has millions of dollars of non-perishable food for tens of thousands of people, stocked on hand, permanently, just for "shelter food" in case of a potential hurricane? And generators with unlimited fuels for the Astrodome? And a fleet of buses with (expendable) drivers ready and waiting and tanked up, at all times? And San Francisco, and L.A., for a potential earthquake?

Of course not. To assume (or expect) as much from any local government would be nonsense. But especially so in such "flush" :sarcasm: budgetary times, when already cash-strapped local governments are expected to take on more and more financial burdens, when the federal government keeps cutting funding to programs (and mandating unfunded programs) that no one can afford.

This tactic of "Well, there's plenty of blame to go around at all levels (but especially at the local level)" is merely the last refuge of those who've been caught with their pants down. At this point, it's really all they can say. They're hanging onto the sinking ship that is Bush. Most of the rest of us, however, are just sick of hearing it.

ANYONE who says that the local governments of N.O. and Louisiana deserve even CLOSE to the share of blame that federal officials deserve in the aftermath of Katrina is a either a delusional Bush apologist or, simply, willfully ignorant.

George Tenet got the Medal of Freedom for his "slam dunk" case for Iraqi WMDs. Maybe Bush will give himself a medal for his "responsibility". But what Bush and his ilk truly deserve is to drown (politically) for their incompetence, along with the perhaps thousands who have drowned (literally) in the streets of New Orleans.

Before you go ballistic, please note that I am not absolving anyone above him for their greater share of blame. But I can't agree with your statement:

>> Mayor Nagin... urged a full voluntary evacuation, and ordered a full mandatory evacuation, as early as they could <<

I know Nagin dragged his heels on the voluntary evacuation order because I remember standing in front of my television set on Friday night and Saturday afternoon literally screaming "GET OUT!! GET OUT OF THE CITY!" while Nagin was stalling for an after business hours announcement to evacuate. It was obvious that he was more concerned with losing weekend tourist dollars than he was at the possibility of killing the tourists that were still streaming into the city. Savvy city residents (with the luxury and means to leave) were already clearing out, not waiting for him to make it official.

And I was equally outraged that even after Weather officials tracked Nagin down to a restaurant on Saturday night and BEGGED him to evacuate the city, he still had to think about it all night long and didn't order mandatory evacuation until mid-morning on Sunday.

So Nagin doesn't get a free pass with me. He goes on the list with Brown and all the others who contributed to this debacle.

mandatory evac is not traditionally ordered for orleans because there is no way to completely evacuate the city

why give an order that can't be followed

there are limited ways out of the city

these storms turn east

you cannot order an evac every time there is a storm in the gulf, the storm was originally predicted to hit florida/alabama state line

nagin had bad luck but he did nothing less than every other official throughout the history of new orleans has done and actually he did more, considering he got way more ppl out of the city than any simulation proved possible

we all know damn well that once a mandatory evac is ordered for orleans, you have GUARANTEED that ppl will die because a certain number of older ppl WILL die due to the stress of being transported

further it's known from our experience w. georges that there are a certain no. of predators in our society & the superdome w.out power will be a very dangerous place

this is not a decision to be made every time there is a storm in the gulf

if the storm had turned, then we'd all be hearing once again abt ppl rioting in the superdome, old ppl dying on busses, & what a terrible irresponsible man nagin was for not letting ppl stay in their homes!

jeez, a man just can't win

easy for us, in no position of responsibility, to sit back & criticize

Nagin did not issue the voluntary evacuation order until after peak business hours on Saturday. By that time National Weather officials were pratically weeping on TV in their efforts to get people to leave, so based on their reactions I still maintain Nagin was slow in responding.

By very late on Saturday night, a much subdued and somber Nagin appeared in news broadcasts urging people to leave, but he still did not issue mandatory evacuations. He said he would make a decision by Sunday morning, but it was 10:30am before he actually announced that decision. Again, NOT what I call a timely response given the amount of information already available.

I read here on DU that all other areas of the coast were 24hours ahead of NOLA in issuing the same orders, so again I'm not persuaded that Nagin acted in a timely fashion.

But I also agree that this was an incredibly difficult call for any local official. The safest route will always result in a number of false alarms, and that means lost business and increased emotional fatigue when facing the next call. So there's always a strong motive to resist evacuation.

My NO relatives got out Saturday during the day and praised Mayor Nagin.

I just don't see what else Nagin could really DO to get more people to leave. I don't believe he had the authority to force people out of their homes and then out of the city. There certainly wasn't time to go door to door, checking to see that each home/apt. was empty. It would've taken far too long to do a forced evacuation of even a fraction of the remaining residents who did not want to leave for whatever reason.

I don't see how a mandatory evacuation, particularly in a city such as New Orleans with limited escape routes, is practical or legal. That doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvements, though. Obviously there are. I still believe that 80% is a commendable figure considering the projected results were a full 20% lower.

>> I still believe that 80% is a commendable figure considering the projected results were a full 20% lower. <<

And I must admit I hadn't seen that stat or else was in such a daze from the whole event that I missed the significance of that figure.

At an intellectual level I've known for years that quick evacuation of any urban area is largely unfeasible, so I never expected everyone to get out. And some people won't leave, no matter what, so my concern was always for those who were willing (and able) to leave but who were waiting for their cue from official sources before acting. For many people, it's not really a "serious" situation until it reaches that level. But by that time, it's almost too late.

I didn't know about it until quite recently, either. So much info. to process! Eighty percent of a major metropolitan city is quite a feat, though.

Yes, I agree with you that if there are people who do not evacuate until they are told to do so, perhaps giving that order earlier would've saved a few more people. I don't know, though. There were people who DID evacuate in cars earlier, yet were still trapped on the gridlocked roads and bridges out of NO. They ended up getting sent BACK to NO by the police in order to take shelter from the incoming Katrina. They became trapped in the city, too, along with those who wouldn't/couldn't leave.

I think the physical layout of NO made it so difficult to evacuate easily that not much more could've been done. Still, there is always room for improvement. A tweak here or there counts when the result is more lives saved. What you suggested could well have saved someone, therefore it would've been worth doing. Absolutely.

which was being executed. Evacuation is done in stages. If he had done as you suggested and everyone had tried to leave Saturday, there would have been chaos on the roads and people would have drowned in the highways.

He executed the plan (contrary to the rw meme of the week).

Particularly as he had no authority to force anyone to leave the city, yet studies had projected only a successful evacuation of 60%.

to force someone out of a city? All that I keep hearing is that shrub didn't have authority, Blanco didn't have authority, Nagin didn't have authority.

Who has the authority? I would think that the leader of a city WOULD have the authority to kick you out of a city.

Also, if studies projected an evacuation rate of 60%, why wouldn't the city or state put some money into making an evac plan that would provide for 100% evacuation? I just don't get it. Any of it.

Too much bureaucracy. Too much corruption. Not enough true leaders. All leads to catastrophe.

The 60% number was drawn from the "Hurricane Pam" scenario which postulated 'x' warning time and 'x' resources and concluded that the evacuation routes would be so congested that no more than 60% could be evacuated with the average resources in the average time allotted. That's why the city opened the Superdome and Convention Center as evacutation points of last resort. The actual evacuation was far more successful than projected, which is good, because the people trapped in the internal evacuation were not there for the projected 3 day maximum but for not less than twice as long due to FEMA refusing to get them out of there.

For someone to have the authority to kick you out of your home and city based on their or someone else's decision? Because that's the authority that Junior is seeking right now. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1778930 Adolf had it, so he wants it, too, I suppose. :eyes:

but if nobody in a leadership role has the responsibility to get everyone to safety, then we cannot bash these same leaders for a lack of response to save those who chose to stay.

Wherever did you get that idea? It doesn't matter WHY someone stays, it is still the gov't.'s responsibility to provide relief after a disaster. Interesting take, though. The feds completely fail in their duties - CONTINUE to fail - and they're absolved because people "chose to stay?"

Uh-huh. Do tell.

What about the elderly and disabled? What about the sick and injured in hospitals, hospices, and nursing homes? What about all of the medical staff who remained to care for them? What about all of the tourists who were stranded when their flights were cancelled, rental cars gone, buses stopped, and taxis unavailable? What about the people who DID evacuate in cars, but found themselves forced to turn back to NO half a day after sitting in massive traffic because the storm was coming and the police told them to seek shelter immediately? Do they all suffer, too, because some people "chose to stay?" I think not.

but you say that it is the government's responsibility to get in relief. I am saying that it is the government's responsibility to get people out of danger AND to provide relief. I am not saying a invasion of a city.

Nagin should have ordered the elderly and disabled removed at the voluntary evacuation level.

Nagin should have ordered the sick, injured, children or anyone else in a hospital, hospice or nursing home removed at the voluntary evacuation level.

The tourists should have been provided transportation at the voluntary evacuation level.

Not sure how many people were forced to go back.

If Nagin couldn't do it, Blanco needed to help. If she couldn't do it, shrub needed to help. The evacuation of the needy was pathetic and the relief effort was also.

And how do you remove that many people in such a short period of time? I hope you realize that the best-case scenario in a simulation called 'Hurricane Pam' run by the gov't. showed that only 60% of New Orleans had a chance to make it out of the city. Nagin accomplished 20% more than that, a full 80%. That's nothing short of miraculous. Eighty percent of a major metropolitan city. Think about the numbers involved. Think about the orders given to accomplish that.

You can put everyone on buses at the 'voluntary' evacuation level. Everyone who wants to leave. HOWEVER, unless those buses can fly, they aren't going anywhere on the few highways leading out of the city. Just ask the carloads of people that had to be turned back due to the sitting traffic on the highways/bridges out of town. Buses wouldn't have fared any better. I certainly hope we aren't talking about those school buses, either, because they weren't air conditioned. Whole busloads of elderly and/or sick evacuees would've died in the heat on those buses, sitting in traffic waiting for a chance to leave the city. A chance that would never come.

The failure here came in the complete absence of federal relief and rescue operations for five full days after Katrina. They had to be shamed on (inter)national television into providing any resources.

... were you in N.O.? If so, why weren't you one of the "savvy" folks getting out? Why were you just sitting there screaming at your TV?

"Savvy folks" were getting out Saturday in droves for two reasons: 1) They live in a hurricane zone and know when the risks merit it
AND
2) Local government, at all levels (including Nagin), were STRONGLY urging people to leave if they could.

It wasn't until Friday at 5PM that the National Hurricane Center shifted the predicted landfall to N.O. and upped the anticipated strength to a Cat 3 (look up the archives yourself). Friday morning, we were talking about a category 1 hitting Panama City, FL, hundreds of miles to the east.

That's how quick things change when predicting hurricanes. If we ordered a full evacuation 3 days (or even 2 days) out for everyone at risk, every town on the Gulf would be a ghost town for large parts of the year.

New Orleans is just the tip of the iceberg. Nagin's results reaped better than what most emergency plans expect.

:kick:

a note of sanity

I was going to start a thread saying almost same thing you did above with the heading "I call BS, Broussard, Nagin & Blanco are HEROES." They did their job and did it damn well. 80% evacuation of a major city is unprecedented, 60% was expected. They got most of the rest to temporary shelters and shelters of last resort as they were supposed to. These were planned to be TEMPORARY, to hold out for a few days until the feds arrive with relief, as you duly noted. Most of the problems, the looting, violence, cops walking off jobs, etc. came after nearly twice that planned duration without help.

Read the disaster plans, all coordinated with and approved by FEMA. The locals are to help people ride out the storm and provide immediate relief just after and to hold down the fort til the cavalry gets there. They did their part but the cavalry was being led by a later day Custer.

This BS blame game shifting it to the locals is typical rovian tactics, he always attacks at ones strength. This alone should tell you how good a job the locals did. It wouldn't surprise me if rove himself wrote the disgusting RW emails making the rounds, or at least personally approved them.

We all need to spread around our own meme along with the facts. The locals SHONE! They were heroes that saved thousands of lives and performed better than expected with very limited resources. I welcome a true independent investigation because it will point up these facts and shine a light on the cockroaches as well.

move on is sending out a petition for a commission similar to the 9/11 commission ...well as a flight attendant for one of the airlines involved..i do not and will not support another white wash commission that takes 2 years and is nothing but bullshit and a cover for the * white house and the delibrate failure of *

no sirw..please used the following link and write move on and say..no!!

special prosecutor or independant council or nothing...

no more white washes!! aided and abetted by us!

moveon-help@list.moveon.org

tell them hell no!!!!!!!!!

You obviously meant NO as in negative as opposed to New Orleans after reading the post

The way I read the subject line I wondered if it was satire

I read it:
"REALLY. Let's get serious. N(ew) O(rleans) local government could have handled..."

Is it just me or should New Orleans be abbreviated N.O. or NOLA from now on?

This disaster is what the federal government is FOR. It was a multi-state disaster, on par with a NATIONAL emergency, not a small, local emergency. People who are attempting to argue otherwise, are grasping at straws.

but the bush gang in power does not belong

I was there and can compare it to what went before. And people are forgetting that Tulane began that weekend, so there were several thousand extra students and parents who had come in on Thursday and Friday, expecting a category 1 to hit far to the east and not affect Tulane and New Orleans. That changed in about 24 hours.

from Aravosis:

Bush Ignored Blanco, Reached Out To Barbour
by Michael in New York - 9/14/2005 11:42:00 AM

USA Today does a rundown of the two governors most affected by Katrina. Blanco was front and center in calling for more aid and expressing displeasure. Barbour seemed in remarkable denial as he insisted on TV that Bush was doing great -- even while reporters were saying Gulfport and Biloxi Mississippi (just to name two) were in desperate need and FEMA was in short supply or not in sight at all. Buried in the article is this telling contrast:

says that two days after Katrina, desperate for help, she couldn't get through to Bush and didn't get a callback; hours later, she tried again, and they talked....

Barbour hasn't had to wait hours to talk to Bush. In fact, Barbour said in an interview with USA TODAY, the president called him three to four times in the wake of Katrina. "I never called him. He always called me," he said.

Mr. President, is it true in the first five days of this disaster that you reached out to the Republican governor of Mississippi and called him three times? Is it true you NEVER called the Democratic governor of Louisiana during the first five days of this national tragedy that had hit her state harder than any other?

www.americablog/blogspot.com

IEM Team to Develop Catastrophic Hurricane Disaster Plan for New Orleans & Southeast Louisiana
June 3, 2004

http://www.ieminc.com/Whats_New/Press_Releases/pressrelease060304_Catastrophic.htm

snip

"The IEM team will complete a functional exercise on a catastrophic hurricane strike in Southeast Louisiana and use results to develop a response and recovery plan. A catastrophic event is one that can overwhelm State, local and private capabilities so quickly that communities could be devastated without Federal assistance and multi-agency planning and preparedness."

FEMA's own website archive of press releases (Sept 2, "FEMA Urges Patience...") also shows the slow response to contracting for buses, mostly charter buses, to actually do the hurricane evacuation from the Superdome/ConventionCenter sites. The attempts to blame this on the state/city is ludicrous, but that's what the rightwingnuts have been doing. Most of these charter buses are from far away and out of state of LA. Alabama, Tennessee, Ohio, North Carolina, etc., all with set contracts...dated when ? This will make for interesting DU FOIA requests if you get my drift. Can you say 'smoking gun' on FEMA negligence, especially to their own catastrophic hurricane plan ?

It doesn't get much more prima facie.

If not, you must.

Do you have a link to the Sept. 2 FEMA site?

FEMA Urges Patience While Search Continues for Stranded Victims and Supplies Stream In

Release Date: September 2, 2005
Release Number: HQ-05-190

"Convoys of food, water and ice which are arriving hourly in impacted areas.

The evacuation of thousands from New Orleans to Texas. FEMA has contracted for more than 650 buses to expedite the state-ordered evacuation."

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18540

I did post earlier on the busing information also:

FEMA Outsourced New Orleans Disaster Plans

http://www.wnymedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=45&Itemid=35

by Wayne Madsen

shows us the company, Innovative Emergency Management, Inc. IEM for short, that should have planned out rescue and relief efforts in New Orleans. I also note that it took around FIVE whole days but FEMA finally got around to the process of privatizing bus contracts to rescue those New Orleans Superdome/ConventionCenter refugees. Those bus contracts appear to have gone from 650 to 5000 by the time FEMA realized people were AT those sites !

Local Company Sending Charter Buses to Gulf

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2005/local/09/02/bus.html

“The Federal Emergency Management Agency is mobilizing 5,000 buses nationwide.” This is from a Cincinnati, OH bus company ; a No. Carolina Christian bus charter firm also got a contract

Community Offers Relief

BY JENNIFER MENSTER
Record Staff Writer
Saturday, September 3, 2005

http://www.hickoryrecord.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=HDR/MGArticle/HDR_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031784847098&path=

So, you can see, FEMA was ‘privatizing’ the rescue/relief effort and dawdling in this effort, rather than expediting rescue/relief that the National Guard/military could have been doing.

I also posted about Newsweek's picture story on the NO flood showing on pages 44-45 buses. School buses on one side of the highway, charter buses from AL and TN being boarded on the other.

You may also want to look into the state of LA's independent contracting of out of state buses itself; Door County WI was mentioned on a DailyKos weblink.