We really do have to get out of Iraq now

If Bush had gone to the UN and gotten a real inspection regime, and Saddam had snubbed us, I would have reluctantly supported war. I felt that sanctions were going to have to be put on Iraq indefinately and that due to that and the fact that innocents were the most common victims of the sanctions, I felt war might be the better option.

Yet that didn't happen, the weapons weren't there, the war has lasted longer than even the most pessamistic projections suggested were possible, and the cost has been insane.

But, I still thought staying in was necessary. We had seriously broken Iraq I felt we needed to fix it. I felt that giving Iraq the time to train a police force and army to both deal with the insurgency and respect human rights, might save them from distruction.

I no longer believe that is possible. The fiasco with the British and the Iraq police have convinced me that it is all over. It has been well over a year since we have heard mission accomplished and this is what the British, and remember their part of the country is the one which is running well, have wrought.

If the police are 'riddled with insurgents' as was reported on NPR in the wake of this incident, in the best run part of the country, just what are places like Faluga like by now? Sadly, it appears to be a total mess.

I have come to this conclusion in the full knowledge that the alternative is an Iraq which is at best in a three way civil war, and at worst an Islamic state allied with a nuclear armed Iran. I harbor no illusions that the UN or NATO will bail us or Iraq out of this mess. They would be insane to try to do so. But, all we are currently doing is delaying the inevitable. When we have to knock down jail walls to protect our troops from insurgents in the police, we really have lost the hearts and minds.

The fiasco with the Brits shooting Iraqi police has convinced me that
there are many covert activities going on over there. I believe that
the situation is so chaotic that we will never progress towards a stable
state. I am not saying that Iraq should not be helped, what I am saying
that the operation we have set up cannot accomplish a stable government
and society over there. We will have to pay heavily for some sort
of UN effort to stabilize the place.

We at least need a plan other than training their police and military. Moving our troops to the fringes of the towns and cities would be a starter. We are out there terrorising the inhabitants. Then the iraqis are terrorised by the terrorist. They can't win. Most of us are not military analyst so we can only make guesses but, we do know that what Rummy is doing is digging a hole for us.

slightly more than twice the size of Idaho

26,074,906 (July 2005 est.)
Age structure:
0-14 years: 40% (male 5,293,709/female 5,130,826)
15-64 years: 57% (male 7,530,619/female 7,338,109)
65 years and over: 3% (male 367,832/female 413,811) (2005 est.)

The military victory of the US-led coalition in March-April 2003 resulted in the shutdown of much of the central economic administrative structure. Although a comparatively small amount of capital plant was damaged during the hostilities, looting, insurgent attacks, and sabotage have undermined efforts to rebuild the economy.

Oil - production:
2.25 million bbl/day (2004 est.); note - prewar production (in 2002) was 2.03 million bbl/day (2004 est.)

Notice their oil production is up above pre-war standards and yet the
country is in ruins and so is their economy.

info in our media. I had no idea production was higher, although I see "est." and assume that is not absolute, right?

but higher is still higher, I would tend to believe the CIA over Bushco

as confusing as this development is (I can't quite get ahold of it, and I'm sure neither side is telling the whole truth), it's also very obvious that the people in Southern Iraq could give a rat's ass about anything happening in Baghdad. So much for a workable constitution or anything approaching a cohesive, democratic state. This pipe dream has finally gone up in smoke. Out now!