Judith Miller & Robert Novak: My jump-the-gun I-told-you-so

From October, 2003:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=461221

LOL.

(Edited to correct gender. I looked.)

or something...


edit: or something...

I don't like to write, but I put this thing together and, after getting positive feedback, posted it under different names on about a half-dozen venues. Each time I posted, I added new info/thoughts.

I think this (link below) is the most recent and best version:

http://www.mikehersh.com/All_Roads_Lead_To_Cheney.shtml

:toast:

many on DU tell me I'm nit picking and playing with words, but that's exactly how lawyers work! It was fully explained when Clinton said "it depends on what the meaning of is, is."

You can say I never mentioned that name in this house, and be telling the truth, even though you talked a lot about that person when you were somewhere else!

I've dealt far too much with many very good attys, and I learned that you always listen to EVERY WORD, and very carefully!

I think you nailed it two years ago, ByeDick. Don't stay away so long next time!

I think you nailed it two years ago, ByeDick. Don't stay away so long next time!

sense.

So matter of fact that it sounds like inside information!

Always. Which I put my tinfoil hat on and say hey WHO are you really? You have the inside track my friend. Great post.

user profile diabled.

that's cool. Perhaps it is finally safe for folks to start jumping ship? The boat is definitely going down.

Look at this, although a new threa is probably in order. Everything is connected:

Franklin pleads guilty

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Pentagon-Spy-Probe.html

Franklin is also ionvolved in the Niger forged docs. From DKos


JANUARY 2001 BREAK-IN AT NIGER EMBASSY

At night, between the first and second of the January 2001, a mysterious thief came to the embassy of Niger in Rome and into the residence of the counselor in charge. It turned out that some letterhead and seals were missing. A second dossier on Niger-Iraq trade soon came into Martino’s hands, one that included references to uranium trafficking. Martino claims he got it from embassy personnel and that he thought it was authentic.

Martino passed it on to the French secret service, who had paid for it, and also to Panorama , which assessed it by dispatching a female reporter to Niger. Panorama also turned the file over to the US Embassy in Rome for cross-checking in the US.

The female journalist soon told Martino that the trip to Niger had not produced any real confirmation, and also the French confirmed to Martino that the reports he had passed on to them were groundless. In other words, Bush’s war rationale was debunked way back in 2001 by amateur and professional sleuths.

Furthermore, it was a very amateurish forgery, not likely produced through official channels by any state intelligence agency with their vast resources. However, it was soon resuscitated as the Bush administration, in its first year, ramped up its public relations campaign for war.

ROME MEETING IN DECEMBER 2001

Michael Ledeen organized a meeting in Rome to gather evidence to support the planned war. Present were:

1. Michael Ledeen, Karl Rove’s foreign policy advisor and organizer of the meeting

2. Nicolo Pollari, head of the the Italian equivalent of the CIA, the SISMI

3. Italy’s Minister of Defense, Antonio Martino (no relation apparently to the spy Rocco Martino), Pollari’s boss

4. Larry Franklin, an American who presently is being prosecuted in the US for giving classified information to an Israeli front group, AIPC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) -- which some would call "spying," even though he has not been charged with espionage

5. Harold Rhode: member of Dick Cheney’s Office of Special Plans, protege of Ledeen, go-between with Iraqi exile and CIA asset (at the time) Ahmed Chalabi.

Ledeen already had a longstanding friendship with Francesco Pazienza, an Italian felon and forger who had been kicked out of the official Italian intelligence organization SISMI but who had found a new home in the renegade intelligence agency P-2 (Propaganda Due). Pazienza apparently was not present but definitely was known to Italian intelligence agents, including Rocco Martino, as well as to Ledeen.

Ledeen also was a personal friend of Pollari, who, like Ledeen, is a master of the card game bridge (Ledeen writes columns on it). There are close ties between Pollari’s official intelligence organization, SISMI, and Pazienza’s unnofficial one, P-2. In fact, P-2 recruits from SISMI.

This little group dusted off Martino’s discredited second dossier on Iraq-Niger trade, with the uranium references. The Bush administration now had its causus belli.

CAUSUS BELLI: A PIECE OF CRAP

The accompanying figure shows a bit of the cobbled-up intelligence report on stolen letterheads, forged by amateurs -- most likely Ledeen’s friend, Francesco Panzienza. This is the "evidence" on which George Bush sent almost two thousand young Americans and untold thousands of Iraqi civilians to their deaths.

SPRING 2002: JOE WILSON TO NIGER

Former US Ambassador (to Gabon) Joseph Wilson made the trip, apparently at the behest of the CIA, to determine the authenticity of the charges in Martino’s documents, even though the CIA already could see they were forgeries. Even the Panorama reporter could have saved him the trouble. Wilson reported back to the CIA that there was no proof that Iraq had sought uranium in Niger. The US government knew there was no proof.

I have always said you can't trust any republican ESPECIALLY Dick Cheney!

Good reminder.

Sonia

Now tell us, when will we see chimpy in handcuffs?

Congratulations!

.... Rove to Condi trying to deflect any attention on 'the Office of the Vice President'!

But, the list of folk who will be indicted I have thought for sometime is going to be breathtaking in scope. Cheney and Bush, until they either resign or are impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate, will be un-indicted co-conspirators.

You've gotta feel kinda sorry for the folk who are going to suffer collateral damage, like James Carville. :cry:


Peace.

do not think its an accident that Delay just was indicted first..and look for Frist very quickly as well so they can not be named as a new v.p...they must go down first so they can not be put in place of cheney!! Delay and Frist had to be ruined as possible v.p's first before fitzgerald takes down cheney !!

thats the way i see it..and cheney has to be spiro agnewed before they can go after *....

its what i have been telling others for quite some time!

fly

The very thought that there may be a friendly cabal operating beneath the evil cabal is encouraging.

as I was listening to radio story about Miller.

If they can get Heartless on one charge, and Monkey on others, then we can purge them both at once, but we have to wait until the 06 Congress is seated, so that following the impeachment and trial, Speaker Pelosi will assume the Presidency.

She can then appoint John Conyers as her VP.

And then, we can take a vacation or have a celebration!

Pelosi and Conyers. At last, we'd have people we could trust in charge!

:kick:

what's next?

You either know for sure or your analysis skills are world class. Guess we will know for sure soon. The Neo-Cons seem to be unraveling quickly.

I'm smiling again.

Thank you.

Countdown clock for "resignation due to health reasons" should be ticking away.

The Vice President must resign his post due to a chronic leaky knee problem.

I never believed that annurism story: It was too easy to either make it a serious "life=threatening" condition, or nothing at all that would stop him from taking over the world's oil reserves. It was too usefull either way.

Anything they set up like that is suspect, when they load their hand with both aces, and hedge their bets. It's all Rove: Pure bull.

one word of these people's medical bulletins.) (I got onto that when Rove was AWOL during Katrina--and then--oh, ten days later, was it?--comes out with this newsturd about kidney stones. I figured he was negotiating his Treasongate pardon, and was on strike during Katrina because of it, leaving Bush Jr. to twist slowly in the wind of his own idiocy, out there in public.)

But I digress.

Great post, ByeDick! I agree with you totally, as to following their words closely. These are some devious bastards.

But I think that Wilson was set up. He said in an interview (freepress.org, maybe?) that he'd called Condi Rice, to get the regime to back off of the Niger claim, and she told him, through intermediaries, that she wasn't interested in his information, but, if he was so concerned about it, why didn't he publish it?

Sure sounds like she was baiting him. And if that's the case--if they knew it was coming--why did they go into this flurry to get Plame outed, contacting at least SIX reporters, circulating the Plame memo on AF-1, and putting top Bushites at max risk of treason charges? And then why did they compound that risk by outing Brewster Jennings? It feels like panic to me. Not like a well thought out plan. I think they WERE out to "get" the CIA, and were using the Niger forgery in some way to do it, and were using Wilson opportunistically to further that goal. But I think some other thing happened, that triggered this precipitous, foolish method of outing Plame. Why the hurry?

And here's what I think it is:

May 22, 2003: Brits chief WMD expert David Kelly started whistleblowing anonymously to the BBC about the Brits "sexed up" Iraq intel (--AFTER the Iraq invasion, which he had supported).

July 7, 2003: The Blairites ferreted Kelly out (which maybe his old friend Judith Miller had something to do with?*), interrogated him at a "safe house," and then told Tony Blair that Kelly "could say some uncomfortable things." Not HAD said. COULD say. (Hutton report.)

July 14, 2003: Plame outed (by Novak).

July 18, 2003: Kelly found dead, under highly suspicious circumstances; his office and computers searched.

July 22, 2003: Brewster Jennings outed (also by Novak), disabling all WMD projects and putting covert agents at great risk.

(In between, on July 21, 2003, Judith Miller wrote Kelly's obit for the NYT, but failed to mention her close connections to Kelly.)

What did Kelly know? My guess: He'd found out about the Bush Cartel plot to PLANT WMDs in Iraq--for Ms. Miller to "find" (all set up to do so, with an "embed" contract signed by none other than Donald Rumsfeld)--and of course for the enormous political gain that a "find" of WMDs in Iraq would have meant to Bush and Blair.

Whatever happened--and I admit that most of this is guessing--that coincidence of Plame/Kelly dates, outlined above, is just too coincidency to ignore. Kelly interrogated. Seven days later, Plame outed. Four days later, Kelly dead. Four days later, BJ outed.

I think the revenge story (against Wilson) is a cover story. I think they were panicked. Maybe found evidence that BJ/Plame had discovered their plot (or had foiled it), and wanted to make her mortally fearful.

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*(Note: Miller is the one to whom Kelly wrote his last email, the day he died, warning of "the many dark actors playing games." I don't think he was aware of her part in all this.)

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I agree with you that Cheney is behind it all, and it's extremely savvy of you to have picked up on the wording of those statements. The place Dick Cheney wasn't. That's good.

in Operation AWOL, they were able to make a true story false by discrediting an insignificant document. In Operation Yellowcake they hoped to make a false story true by discrediting two insignificant people.

The fact of the matter, as I see it, is that Dick Cheney knowingly forced the Yellowcake story into the State of the Union Address. And because the so-called news media have been so successful in brainwashing us, we didn’t, and still don’t, see Cheney’s bogus nuclear threat as a very big deal. But, in reality, what Cheney did is a textbook case of nuclear terrorism. He falsely claimed that if we didn’t go to war, we’d die. That’s terrorism. There's never been a better example of terrorism. (See Title 18.)

When Cheney realized that the cake was about to hit the fan, he panicked. He underestimated his media operatives, and gave no thought to Brewster Jennings, or to the safety of covert operatives.

He simply attempted to provide the second half of a controversy in order to avoid the birth of a scandal. It didn’t work.

In the article, Novak's very careful to parse his words: "Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report."
So Novak only links the "administration officials" to the info that Wilson's wife suggested that he take the trip. The key info, that Plame is a CIA agent, is not atributed to any source. Why? It's no crime to disclose the first bit of information, but it is a crime to disclose an agent's identity. It looks like they were being very careful to keep the two sources seperate; so administration officials aren't connected to the actual leak of her job. So who did Novak learn Plame's identity from? It seems like Novak did use this phrasing on purpose. This sort of bugged me when I read it, & I figure you'd be the one to know the answer!

It's probably tinfoil hat time here, but...

Here's a crazy thought: what if Novak's source was Judith Miller? That would explain a whole lot. Libby has said that did talk to her about Ambassador Wilson, but insists he never revealed his wife's identity & had allowed her to speak to the grand jury. Four other reporters who received the same waiver from Libby have already testified. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071502080.html) Miller said she wouldn't testify to protect her confidential source, but apparantly, that source gave a waiver of confidentiality over a year ago. So what or who is she protecting?

If she really is reporting on WMD in Iraq, she could have easily learned of Plame's identity (as an agent in arena of WMD). This would also explain the Bolton jail visit - as Undersecretary of Arms Control, he was also a big backer of the "Iraq has WMD" agenda & could have fed her the info. If she really did have an agenda, she could have disclosed the actual identity to Novak, leaving admin. officials free to only add on pertinent information after the identity is revealed.

Looking at "the words": Novak said "Nobody in the Bush administration called me to leak this." That's true - he called <i>them</i> to confirm the info he'd already been given by Miller. So the identity's been "revealed" already & ad. officials can feel free to comment and expand upon it. Like you said, that info is now fair game. Rove coordinates to let media & officals know it's now legally safe to talk about Plame's role.

What if the source Miller is really protecting is herself? Maybe the flow was - Bolton - Miller - Novak - Rove (confirms & spreads). By referring the vital illegal information (CIA role) through a third party, the administration won't be directly implicated. By not actually publishing a story on this, Miller isn't implicated. By only repeating info he'd already heard, Novak isn't implicated either. It's a nice scheme, unless the vital link, Miller, is revealed. Maybe Miller is using "Libby" as a cover for the real source she doesn't want to reveal - Bolton.

Miller wrote many, many, Iraq/WMD scoops that turned out to be false. (http://slate.msn.com/id/2086110/) Bolton was in charge of "Arms Control" & eager to spin intelligence about Iraq's WMD (to the point of punishng CIA employees who didn't comply). Bolton could use the NY Times to spread false lies about the danger from WMDs and build public support for a war with Iraq. It's propaganda, really. And Miller was eager to publicize the "scoops" she received from Bolton about Iraq's WMD's - she eventually got a Pulitzer prize!

But if the grand jury asks about Bolton, she'll have to reveal her complicity in the propaganda machine for war & the false info from Bolton that she spread; as well as the leak of Plame's identity. So she uses a cover - she claims she can't testify because of Libby to protect her true source of info (Bolton) & prevent the grand jury from investigating her relationship w/Bolton. It's like a shell game - distracting by focusing on Libby, not the real source she's potecting. So, now she's free, but that might not be a good thing. Fitzgerald promised to "limit the scope" of questioning & not ask about other sources. What if Miller gets up there & then testifies that Libby actually revealed nothing to her at all? By assuring her a limited scope of questioning, the grand jury can't go into her OTHER sources - or her true source of the information, Bolton.

Thanks to anyone who actually reads this whole conspiracy theory. What do you think? Is it at all plausible?

I remember that thread. You are indeed correct. Exactly my thinking as well! :thumbsup:

It's that same thinking that made it obvious to a few that Deep Throat was Mr. Felt.

This also means you'd make one hell of a good crook. Hahahaha.


Let the games begin!

I really stood out in my mind, because you kept saying "notice the WORDS they use."

makes a lot of sense what you're saying. this is the most exciting news and speculation i've heard in a while. very exciting week!

All of that news a few weeks back was just way too convenient, too staged.

she'll threaten to testify against Cheney (who says Libby isn't speaking for his boss with the waiver business?) but very hush hush and Cheney resigns, health reasons given. Rove also. All Plame stuff inexplicably dropped. Maybe a presidential pardon. Condi (?) takes over the VP job, and we limp to the '06 elections.

I told you so too!

ByeDick's is better, though!(and i bet we weren't alone)

The pertinent post is #15 (replies are good too!

in this thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=349408

to figure it, i am going to hold out confidence the fitzgerald does too. and i enjoyed reading your post byedick. wonderful information. excellent. thanks

Maybe one of them 1970s iron lungs.

I'm glad you are on our side. Any prognostication on Frist?

I believe in credit where credit is due. Enjoy yourself.

Amazing,

I've Been apologising for the "Rove's War" (PlameGate) not being in the mail yet, for a couple of reasons - one, I was pretty sick for a month, and the other, I REALLY wanted to capture the best info I could, did a lot of research and within a few days I'll be shipping the Rove's War at about 150 minutes of what I consider good red MEAT on two DVDs..

It will open the eyes of some folks, but I think if nothing else it will clear up a lot of the mess you get from the media, so many talking and feigning and ducking, even those that know what's going ON are doing it.. so I've gone through hundreds of hours of TIVOd Hearings, the Downing Street Memo hearing I filmed, and this film will have a pretty large cast of characters..

Once I've shipped to everyone that donated (and yes I know some folks are pissed, and I do apologise publicly here, sorry, sorry - two emergency rooms visits are not my idea of fun and cramp my style )
I'm going to kick out a huge press release getting the word out that I've created with nearly a year of research what I think is the definitive story of Rove & Co and their nefarious plans..

For instance I compare the breakin in Rome just about the time Bush was being sworn in, to Watergate and how ROVE who just happens to have been using the FBI as his personal Gestopo since Texas, once "broke in" to Dixon's office, stole his letterhead and printed out party favors which he delivered to the Red Light district of Chicago and soup kitchens to come on over to Dixon's office and get Free Beer and Free women, etc - don't you think it's possible in Rove's position to have "plumbers" of his OWN?

I don't think that's tin foil baby, THAT is his Modus Operandi, he just gets grander with every cheap trick, having been suckled by "Mr Willie Horton" himself as a mentor..

This will be a must have for political junkies and I've put everything I have into it, there are some fun moments too, brought to you by Jon Stewart himself, and graphics to break up the filth being presented and get some perspective back while watching..

Finishing up the soundtrack (writing it all myself) and if I haven't mentioned it yet, did a Satirical version of "Secret Agent Man" called "Secret Agent Plame" which is a mambo version for the credits with some fun lyrics..

The FUN has just BEGUN :)