Cars - and "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."

I posted here a few days ago seeking advice on what type of car to buy, having determined that it wasn't really realistic to think that I could live in a large-ish city without one, especially since my whole family lives 350 miles away, and I like to visit places out in the surrounding (loooovely) countryside that are not accessible by bus or bike (unless you are VERY fit indeed and have lots of time - the area is hilly).

However, having done a lot of calculations based on web tools regarding the real cost of automobiles and on my own estimates, I figure that having a car is going to cost me $400-500 a month. So, basically, I will be forced to work a certain type of job (and be desperate to keep it) just to finance this car. I also already know that I only want to live in the center of the city, where all the action is (and where all the suburbanites by definition AREN'T). The city has a great, cheap, comparably reliable bus system, and cabs aren't prohibitvely expensive ($25 fare from the area I intend to live to the airport, for instance). I am willing to live in a very small apartment in order to stay in the center of the city. My job will come second!

I figure that by doing away with the $400-500 cost of a car, and even if I therefore take a lower-paying job, I will have more than enough money to occasionally rent a car or take a train or bus. These are all issues I am considering. I may be in a position just now to attempt to leave the rat race. I am only 26, so this would be quite a feat, but I figure the best way to escape it is to avoid getting fully trapped in it to begin with (I was in a rat-race type of job before I returned to Texas this summer).


Do you refuse to give in to the pressure - and live without a car?

Is it actually possible to live a life driven by one's own values and (lack of traditional) ambition? Please share your stories.

* * *

Here a few relevant quotes from the magnificent webpage of the late Kent Kifer (who was killed by a drunk driver while cycling)... these are in the spirit of my inquiry:


'Bill Yoder wrote: My favorite excuse of my high school students for not having time to do their homework is "I have to go to work." When asked why they have to go to work, it's "I have to pay for my car." When asked why they have to have a car, it's "I have to get to work." It's hard to defeat such circular logic. Too many kids are hooked on cars at age 16, and live the remainder of their lives enslaved by the concept of "freedom of the road."'


European Transportation by Trips, 1988 (my apologies for the visual density of this info)
Country/Auto/Bicycle/Walk/Transit
W. Germany --- 47.6% / 09.6% / 30.0% / 11.4%

France --- 47.0% / 05.0% / 30.0% / 11.0%

Netherlands --- 45.0% / 29.4% / 18.4% / 04.8%

Denmark --- 42.0% / 20.0% / 21.0% / 14.0%

G. Britain --- 42.0% / 04.0% / 29.0% / 14.0%

Austria --- 38.5% / 08.5% / 31.2% / 12.8%

Switzerland --- 38.0% / 09.0% / 29.0% / 19.0%

Sweden --- 36.0% / 10.0% / 39.0% / 11.0%


'Now days, it costs a year's wages to buy a car, and up to a quarter of the space of the house is taken up by the garage. Yet, when someone has blown a whole year's salary on a new car -- even though there was absolutely nothing wrong with the old one -- everyone comes and congratulates the fool, as if he had won a prize or something!'


'I never lift weights, I never condition my abs, I never stretch, I never diet, I seldom see a doctor, I just walk and ride my bike.'


'A bike doesn't have to cost much. Unlike a car, a chrome-moly bike will outlast the owner, and few parts will ever break or fail. Some parts will wear out: the tires, the chain, the cogset, the sprockets, the brake pads, and the bearings. The wheels will fatigue. Replacing the tires is the greatest maintenance cost. When I had little money, I was able to keep my costs to about a penny a mile by using tires and chains from discount stores and rear cogs from a flea market. My costs are greater now; I have paid $2,000 over ten years and 50,000 miles (4¢ a mile), but I still have my two bikes and gear in good condition.

'On the other hand, the average car cost about $5,700 a year. These costs break down to $2,883 for depreciation, $724 for insurance, $696 financial charges, and 9.3¢ a mile for fuel, maintenance, and tires, for a total cost of 45¢ per mile. For some reason, these government figures don't include repairs, parking costs, or taxes. Nor do they consider the earnings necessary to save $5,700. Nor do they include a host of hidden costs, indirect costs, and costs passed on to others. If all costs are included, the total might be as great as $1.25 a mile.

'An unmarried cyclist living in the South can live quite comfortably on that $5,700 a year. An apartment costs $200 a month, utilities (gas, electricity, phone, Internet, and water) from $100 to $150, and food from $60 to $100, leaving $300 to $1,400 a year left over for miscellaneous expenses, such as bike tires. Because of being a cyclist, I can save half of my income while I'm working, or I can afford to take a year off to go back to school or to write.'


'Henry Thoreau, speaking 150 years ago, foresaw the problems our civilization was headed towards. He did not attack change ("When one man has reduced a fact of the imagination to be a fact in his understanding, I foresee that all men will at length establish their lives on that basis."), but he pointed that we were not happy ("The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."), that we had the wrong goals ("Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which it was already but too easy to arrive at."), and that we expected a free lunch at some point ("Men have an indistinct notion that if they keep up this activity of joint stocks and spades long enough that all will at last ride somewhere, in next to no time, and for nothing.").

'The solution, both for us as individuals and as a nation, is to quit following the piper and to rearrange our priorities. True improvement is not always outward ("The kingdom of heaven is within you"). We have to learn to value people over property, Nature over luxury, love and affection over sex and money, and meaningful experiences over financial success. While I recognize that riding bicycles can't solve all these problems, I think that cycling can help people begin making healthy changes in their own lives. Cycling, by itself, can be a good alternative to massive traffic jams, a million injuries and 42,000 deaths a year, high insurance costs, double bypass surgeries, high taxes, and mile after mile of sterile, God-forsaken asphalt.'


http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages


Ken took this picture of himself in Kansas on his way to Washington state during his last trip. (© 2003 Ken Kifer)

here's a site you might like: www.carfree.com check out the links page as well.

Thanks! I am going to delve into it after lunch (tacos, tacos, tacos!!!).

It made me remember how much I used to LOVE Venice and why I took Italian in college. Until I became entangled with a partner who hated Italy because of all the 'lazy' Italians. IMHO, the Italians largely have the right idea!

Especially with the Slow movement. I want to live in a Slow City. Not Walden, in a cabin, and not a modern city - a Slow City!

http://www.cittaslow.net/world/

I also just finished reading Suburban Nation: The Rise of Sprawl and the Decline of the American Dream. I was interested in these issues, anyway, and had just enough planning background from my previous job to follow (and be inspired by) the parts of the book dealing with actual planning codes, city governments, etc. Recommended. Great book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0865476063/qid=1128370263/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-2108141-6620813?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

get buy without a car.

I did it in Portland for ten years. Minneapolis is not so easy, because of the lousy bus system, but I am hoping that Car Sharing comes to my neighborhood, because I would LOVE to get rid of the insurance payments and repair bills. (In my experience, you're always paying either new car payments or old car repair bills, and the cost is about the same per month.)

I got a "free" car (my mother and stepfather's second car) when I moved here two years ago, and even though I hardly ever drive it, it has cost me more than $3000 in gas, insurance, maintenance, and repairs.

In Portland, my transportation expenses were $720 a year, or $55 a month for a systemwide transit pass.

For the most part, I'm better off in Minneapolis, but I sure hate having to drive.

in the 1970's and it always creeped me out since it seemed to take forever for the bus to show up, the buses were malodorous, the ventilation poor, and the passengers seemed to be an unsettling lot. Sometimes I just got out and walked. Has this situation gotten worse? It was so fine when the Como-Harriet trolley still existed since I am old enough to recall riding on it a few times. You'd think with so many Scandinavians up there one would find a better public trans system.

1) It's run by the Metro Council, which is appointed by the governor instead of being elected. That means potentially a complete turnover every four years, and currently, we have Republicanite Tim Pawlenty's version of the Metro Council. Naturally, transit is not a high priority with them.

2) It was built on the "skeleton" of the old streetcar system, but they seem to add and subtract routes in a slapdash fashion without worrying too much about how the new routes fit into the old routes. Transfers are a pain--you might end up waiting 30 to 60 minutes for your next bus, as opposed to a maximum of 15 in Portland.

3) The bus routes were laid out when Minneapolis and St. Paul were separate worlds, which they no longer are, and connections between the two cities are poor. To get from Minneapolis to a neighborhood in St. Paul that is only two or three miles away, one may have to go all the way to downtown St. Paul and then backtrack.

4) By charging more during rush hour, they penalize their best customers.

mid-sized college cities have less scary public transport than megacities

need one. OTOH, since any car is a liability (NOT an asset), I've been buying older, efficient, used cars and keeping them up for years, and have saved literally thousands of dollars over the last 8 years. My current ride is a cherry '86 Nissan Z. I am the second owner and the original kept it up religiously. It is fast enough, gets decent mileage, is very reliable, and the insurance is cheap because it is so old and I don't have to cover the car itself, only liability and un-insured.
Just remember it is only a metal box that carries you & your stuff from point A to point B.
Since you ride so much and seem to be in great condition why get one at all? You can usually rent one for $20 - $25 a day when you need to visit the family of make a long trip, and taxis are cheaper than driving if you don't need them too often.

But after she explained to me (and showed me) that daily commute that took her almost 2 hours on the CTA would take 20 minutes by private transport...

Then add to that her job not promoting her without her own transportation....
And this is in Chicago, Mass Transport capitol of the Midwest!

of the garage, except to drive a few miles every month or so to keep the fluids from turning to sludge and the seals soft. I just loved the trains and all the extra time I had while riding, instead of sitting on the 90.
Anyway an old Honda, Toyota, Nissan can be had for about what the down payment on a new one is. You may have to look around to find a good one, and make sure you know a good (honest) mechanic to make sure there's nothing major coming up, and you'll save so much money. Of course you won't get the status points from driving the new Mercedes, but it doesn't sound like that is an issue for you.

What luck, eh? And one of the best mechanics ever to touch a wrench is only 2 1/2 hours South of her...

I'm still saddled with 2 more years of payments on a Ford Ranger....:(

A few years ago when working 8 miles from my home in another town in England, I took a train (cost = about $7/day). Later, I was given an old banger, which I started driving. This cost me $5 a day in parking, plus about $200 a month in gas (remember this is a 20-mile round trip at most 20 days a month!), plus all other associated costs. Each trip took the same amount of time, due to my having to change trains oncce during the trip and the massive amounts of road traffic at rush hours in the UK - 45 minutes (8 miles, remember).

Obviously, either way was VERY EXPENSIVE and TIME CONSUMING to my little American self. However, in the end I came to prefer the train because it provided me time to read - about two hours a day! Whereas sitting in the car, all I could do was listen to music and get frustrated. Plus the views from the train were mostly really pretty and relaxing, and I enjoyed being 'out and about' and surrounded my other people (13-year-old school children excepted). Except on days when I was really exhausted and then suffered huge train delays (1 in 4 trains is late/cancelled in England, with many of these being very late or causing you to miss a connection, making YOU very late), I found the train much less stress-inducing than driving. I also didn't experience any loss of a sense of 'freedom' many people claim to get from cars. On the contrary, I feel more 'free' when getting about on my own two feet.

I was car-free in Portland.

I was free of so many hassles that the occasionally extra time spent on the actual trip was a small price to pay.

Now I feel that the price of owning a car is actually cramping my freedom, since I'd rather spend the money on other things.

Where do you live now?

I want to visit Portland, I have heard so much good stuff about it from all progressive sources... it must be a model rejuvenated city, no?

Except that, having just returned from the UK, I don't know that I want to move somewhere with MORE rain.

It was a good move in every respect EXCEPT the lack of a good transit system. :-(

Portland is great, although some of its accomplishments, such as land-use regulations, are under attack by Republicanites.

I didn't find the rain too hard to take. Having come from a state where (before global warming) the temps could spend a month at a time below zero, a little rain was nothing.

Rain is infinitely preferable to heavy snow!!!

I did enjoy riding the train in the UK on the few occasions that it snowed... just about 4-6 inches, not enough to seriously disturb service. It was really nice in a surreal, community-spirit kind of way... everyone practically skipping off the train in the evening...

aah...

I'm glad his friends continue to maintain his extensive website. there's a LOT of information there i hope somebody's putting in a hard format!

Wish I had half the balls he had to go carless!

thanks for the link and info. :)

:hi:

:hi: back at ya

I have been reading Thoreau lately, and, since I am unemployed, I am totally absorbed and this guy's website just really resonates with me. It's such a shame he was killed by a drunk driver... but I bet he enjoyed his life a hell of a lot more than the "masses" - and has touched a lot more people, created a lot more positive action, than most of us ever get to.

but where I live now it is impossible - a choice I made...

Even here in southeastern Michigan where the Big 3 auto companies reign supreme (meaning there is virtually no public transportation) I was car-free for a few years in Ann Arbor. There is a bus system that isn't too bad here. I had 3 jobs and some days I would work them all, taking buses from place to place. It became second nature. The little bit of freedom you lose in not being able to drive somewhere on a whim is far outweighed by the freedom you gain from not having to carry the weight of a car, if you know what I mean.

go for it!

And I feel now that, having been forced into the situation I am in, having lost my partner, job, house, all my expectations for my life for the next 50 years, all I can do is try to reevaluate so I can have the life that *I* want, you know?

And I don't know if a car is really part of my goals. You summed it up perfectly. "The little bit of freedom you lose in not being able to drive somewhere on a whim is far outweighed by the freedom you gain from not having to carry the weight of a car."

I am surprised that more people have not responded that they are living this way... maybe those people are online at 3am... haha

sabotaging my attempts to become debt free.

and liked it when I was in NYC sans car due to all the things you list above. Unfortunately, it is simply not possible for me to ride a bike up the twisty mountain road the 20 miles to where I work (though skating down the hill on the way home'd be fun!). Public transport, even with the increased gas prices, is still more expensive than me operating my 1988 Volvo here.

And contrary to what many people think, we car nuts don't like it when everyone has a car - that means there are plenty of people on the road who don't want to be there. That does not equal a fun driving experience.

I would say that most don't.

I remember everyone around the office/pub was incensed when Tony Blair started sending out rumors about upcoming anti-congestion initiatives. Basically, they are planning to start taxing, rather than by year and type of car, by MILE DRIVEN. (The Blairite Labour party are the world masters of hidden tax increases!!!) And they want everyone to ride public transport, even though in a lot of instances it is more expensive and much more inconvenient/time consuming that private driving. Everyone I knew was like, 'They JUST DON'T GET IT - we don't WANT to drive - but unless we have reliable, efficient, affordable trains and buses, we HAVE to. What's going to happen when they make car-driving AND public transport impossible for the majority of us hardworking, taxpaying people? Do they just want us to stop going to work? And the reason I can't move closer to work is because the houses in this country in city centres are so pricey we cannot afford to rent or buy them!'.

That about sums it up. In the UK, when I left, the average cost of an average house in the town where I worked, which would be what we would call a suburban, two-storey, three-bedroom, one-bath duplex built between 1900 and 1950, with a small back yard and parking for one, maybe two cars, usually on the front lawn (which was not intended to be a driveway originally), was about $400,000. Now, I could get a mortgage for up to 4 times my salary with no downpayment, owing to the fact that I was a recent college graduate. But my salary, after three years of working and slowly, slowly getting higher and higher paid positions, went from about $15,000 a year (yes, for someone with a degree) to about $35,000. The very cheapest apartment I could've bought, in a neighborhood where I might or might not get mugged at night, was about $130,000.

Things are bad here. In some ways, it's worse over there. Except they get free healthcare, the bane of most working Americans, and something, IMHO, no person (especially those of us who like to think we live in civilized countries) should have to worry about.

End of rant. Sorry.

You all agree that I should avoid a car if possible? That my initial post, as lovely as it is in spirit, is not entirely unfeasible in reality?

I am living with relatives and saving up some money so, hopefully, I will never be in debt again (was over the past few years, am now debt-free except for the unshakeable burden of massive student loan debt), and I will thus be indebted to no man. I think going car-free may push me further down the road. haha.

Thanks for all the input.

but definitely do-able. I had two friends in college that never owned cars, they just biked to and from work and class. They relied on friends to occasionally drive to the grocery store.

A car is nice to have sometimes though...just for freedom of action if nothing else.

I had to get one myself, because of work. And now I have to work to pay the car payments doh!

One option is to get an inexpensive vehicle. You can get a decent car/truck for $8000-9000 used, at 6% interest you're looking at $165 or so a month plus insurance.

Best of luck in whatever you decide.

Are you still living in east texas? I actually packed my stuff up and got the hell out of College Station. I'm living back in Austin now.

My favorite Thoreau quote:

"If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them."

:toast: Congrats on getting back to Austin! Can't wait until I get there (Jan by my current estimations - I am taking a semi-crap job here to save up a bundle so I am no longer a slave to mounting debts and so I have a deposit on a place to live, etc.).

I figure I will live close enough to either Whole Foods or the Hancock HEB to cycle or take the bus or even the occasional cab in bad weather.

I like that Thoreau quote, too! I was pondering it the other night - it made me think of Ian Van Dahl - Castles in the Sky. That song will always remind me of living in the UK and driving around the countryside in the overcast. That song meant a lot to me; was playing during lots of arguments and quiet moments and ponderous moments over the past few years... so when I read that quote, the language immediately resonated, then it really hit me when I actually thought about what he's trying to get across.

not having a car can cost your life, did we not learn anything from hurricane katrina

i'm not interested in being sold a lie abt how great life is w/out a car, i did w.out a car for 6 yrs, a person w.out a car is a USER & a nuisance to those around her

we need good jobs not more excuses abt it is somehow possible to live on a shitty income & get by w.out a car

i love this quote, it's a goddamn lie--

'An unmarried cyclist living in the South can live quite comfortably on that $5,700 a year. An apartment costs $200 a month, utilities (gas, electricity, phone, Internet, and water) from $100 to $150, and food from $60 to $100, leaving $300 to $1,400 a year left over for miscellaneous expenses, such as bike tires. Because of being a cyclist, I can save half of my income while I'm working, or I can afford to take a year off to go back to school or to write.'

i live in one of the cheapest states in the South & those #s are a damn lie, maybe they were accurate in 1980!

i can't even get private health insurance for $5,700 a yr & he has NOTHING in his budget for health care

he is a liar

we need good jobs and we need CARS

we don't need some airhead telling us oh well we're better off being pure and poor

talk abt feeding me chickenshit & calling it chicken salad!

It was just a rumination on cars and quality of life.

You do realize that if everyone in the world lived at the standards of the AVERAGE American, we would need 5 uninhabited Earths to support that lifestyle choice?

Cars are great - I don't hate cars or want to be more righteous than anyone else. You have obviously either had bad experiences with friends/family sponging off you or drank too much Motor City Kool-Aid. I know non-car spongers, too... or did in college. I was the one WITH a car. But I lived quite happily for other years, including many when I had a job, without one. It depends on where you live, what your circumstances are.

I don't know about his $5,700 a year figures - I didn't write them, just included them because I thought it was interesting - and that's the point of posting a thread, to spur conversation and exchange of ideas on a subject. I would actually like to see your numbers, if you disagree. That does seem a very low figure to me, too. But then I don't know what year it was (though he does mention the internet as a cost) and what his needs (both real and imagined / food vs. cable TV) were. The man isn't here to explain, unfortunately. I for one appreciate his work.

But, yes, I do agree with part of your sentiment. Thrift-living isn't an Answer. We do need Good Jobs. I started this thread because I was interested in hearing other people's experiences of living without a car in a car-saturated culture.

Thanks for your input.

"a person w.out a car is a USER & a nuisance to those around her"

I think this comment was a bit too harsh. That may be true of some people, but not many others. And there are many reasons people don't have cars; we are talking, in this thread, about people who have maturely and responsibly CHOSEN not to have a car for quality-of-life issues.

I, and no doubt many other DUers, would think SUV-drivers and (and other related off-shoots of a car-mad American culture) are much BIGGER users. No blood for oil. :shrug:

Usually if people insisted, I asked them to drop me at the nearest light rail station.

The only time I was ever a parasite was on the rare occasions when I was invited to the home of a person in the suburbs who lived far away from a bus or light rail line. But in Portland, such people are surprisingly few, and I considered 1/2 mile to be "near."

During the ten years I was car-free, five of my friends also gave up their cars.

However, I occasionally ran into people who seemed unreasonably threatened by someone else's voluntary car-free status.

Sorry, I really did love being car-free, and the necessity of owning a car was really the only thing that made me hesitate about moving back to Minneapolis.

By the way, given the road congestion in the Twin Cities (despite or perhaps because of their having invested in freeways rather than in transit), if I had to flee the central city, the most logical and efficient way would be on my bicycle on the network of recreational trails, some of which extend 25 miles out into the countryside. (I live two blocks from an entry point.)

and am totally grateful to those of you who make such a sacrifice. I love downtown areas, especially compared to suburbia, but just to visit...I'm a country-girl at heart. I very much want enough space to grow most of our own food and more and enough space to keep my horses, dogs and chickens. Now, if only I could make enough money on our little "farm" I would be able to quit my job and go without a car, (except to take my eggs and produce to the farmer's market. Hey somebody has to grow all your organic produce!) Until then, I guess I'll keep working and driving. I am planning to buy a hybrid next year when some bills are paid off, though.

...ask the people who were in the Superdome how important it is to have access to a working automobile.

Does anyone know of any women-oriented sites like Ken's about cycling as lifestyle? The only ones I seem to be able to find are for competitive cyclists.

I am interested in reading about safety issues specific to women, or how women deal with the solitary nature of cycling...

If anyone knows, I would be glad to see a URL.

I just looked it up, and I realized that I can ride the city bus from the area I intend to live in (when I finally move) about three miles to the Whole Foods megastore in - get this - 14 minutes, no changes, and for a cost of $0.50!

Bye, bye car! Sweet!

the bus is free on Ozone days too, there are quite a lot here