CNN BREAKING!!!! Karl is playing let's make a deal!!

no guarantee he won't be indicted.

Link?

short, quick piece - but WOW!!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-odonnell/plamegate-the-next-step_b_8447.html

Excerpt:

Fitzgerald does not have to send Rove or anyone else a target letter before indicting him. The only reason to send target letters now is that Fitzgerald believes one or more of his targets will flip and become a prosecution witness at the pre-indictment stage. A veteran prosecutor told me, "If Fitzgerald is sending target letters at the end of his investigation, those are just invitations to come in and work out a deal."

He'll be indicted! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I knew that Rove wouldn't go down without a fight!

peace.

Couldn't be more obvious...

Libby will be indicted and KKKARL will walk.

The aspen leaves are turning pretty colors and, um, Scooter is such a cute name for a grown man and he's been awful nice to Judy Miller.

and it backfired because Rove is a slime and he'll do anything to protect his own worthless tush.

Judy's of course first priority is her neo-cons, Libby being tight with Cheney. Rove is the one they can afford to sacrifice, not Libby because he leads to Cheney who leads to every ball of wax there is.

So now Rove is outing Libby in new testimony, but it doesn't absolve Rove completely. So we get Libby on more counts..Rove on the original counts..and Judy and Scooter on conspiracy and perjury. It's a dream!

Now, that's a dream!

There's the Bush team and the Cheney team and they are about to slice each other up.

Go for it guys, cause it's been a long time coming. Just keep your fingers off the fucking nukes.

Snake eats Gator; neither one survives:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4106595

:popcorn:

Attractive white girl missing! Film at eleven!

Instead, NYC subways threatened. AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

That is HUGH!!1!

Tips on how you can save gas.

The subways are threatened and Mayor Bloomberg isn't getting people into buses....oh, I forgot, Bloomberg is a Republican.....Why didn't Nagin send up those buses from New Orleans?!!!

Gotta pull out all the stops for this one!

and sit at the consultant's table for the Monkeyboy.

As quick as they nail him is as quick as Dumbya will pardon him, IMO. The only way they will stretch that scenario out is if he can stall incarceration with an appeals process...

Larry O'Donnell does it again...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-odonnell/plamegate-the-next-step_b_8447.html

And if I'm Judy Miller...I wouldn't be looking for too many astor trees for too long. That little cell you used to call home, may be more permanent soon. Her days of playing press martyr are almost over.

It's happening!

How does this square with your theory of the case?

Does this fit the model or is something different going on? (In your opinion, of course...I value your opinion in this matter above many others)

A couple days ago, I wrote a little essay ("German Shepherds and the Berlin Wall") that detailed how a prosecutor/investigator breaks a case. Among the things I quoted was something from Woodward's new book, "The Secret Man." From page 91: "(Felt) gave me a little lecture about breaking a conspiracy like Watergate. 'You build convincingly from the outer edges in, you get ten times the evidence you need against the Hunts and Libbys. They feel hopelessly finished -- they may not talk right away, but the grip is on them. Then you move up and do that same thing to the next level."

This is what has occured with Rove. You may also recall that I have posted at least a dozen times a quote from Wilson's book: (page 444) "....when Rove learned he might have violated the law, he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear that he held them responsible for the problem he had created for the administration."

I said last June that Karl was being pressured by Fitzgerald, and would, in time, break. His personal make up is such that any investigator would target him for being a weak link when the pressure is on.

I missed your post with the quote from Woodward's book, (page 444) "....when Rove learned he might have violated the law, he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear that he held them responsible for the problem he had created for the administration."


Given that quote, and the fact that Judith Miller is apparently very close to the VP's Office, I think Rove may be "turning" on Libby and Cheney because he thinks they have made him the fall guy.

This should be good. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Thanks for the info

two lies when Cooper testified. He has been freaking ever since. Miller's testimony was an attempt to protect the VP's office.

Expect fireworks.

And I think Rove requested to testify again to make sure that none of the bigger charges like conspiracy or espionage would stick to him.

The last part of Ruskin's statement is telling:

"The special counsel has confirmed that he has not made any charging decisions in respect to Karl," Luskin said.

Of course they haven't made any "charging decisions". Isn't another word for charging decisions "indictments"?!

turning the pressure on. We have some strange days ahead.

I forgotten some of those details. Sure wish I had time to do a timeline. Are you aware of a link that has created one?

This is so exciting!!!

Keep in mind that the memo that was faxed to Powell on AF1 came from Armitage. He was aware of what Powell had found at CI the weekend before Colin's lies to the UN. While the memo is important, I would suggest that those who read it before the AF1 ride are of far more significance than those who were exposed to it then.

and he faxed the document to Rove in the WH. Now it has never been the source of much conjecture but wasn't the conclusion on one of the Plame threads that they were maybe trying to set Powell up as the fall guy, but that Armitage did an end run about that (we think) when he testified. Could be at that time that Rove figured that by having Ari send him the fax (which presumably they already knew about) they might be able to make a case for Powell being the source. Looks like it didn't work.

Dick A. is a smart man.

Bush only took a handful of his closest staff with him on that trip. Some, if not all, of the WH officials pictured below are involved in the Plame outing.

Cheney & Scooter may have made sure Plame was on the agenda. Big question, who asked Powell to create the memo that he brought with him?

However, it was Bush who approved of the smear campaign and it was from AF1 that Rove and Libby were called to start the wheels in motion.

You build convincingly from the outer edges in....

..Then you move up and do that same thing to the next level

The next level is Bush/Cheney.

Hmmmmm...

At least once a day for the past four days, I've said on DU that I'll bet it ain't much fun hanging out with Dick Cheney right about now.

You sum it up just right.


And HEY - anybody remember that picture before the 2004 election where Rove was in front of the plane and we were (some of us) were speculating that it looked like he was having a major meltdown? The WH said it was "a joke"..... doesn't seem like a joke now - the crapola must have been hitting the fan then.!

spoke loudly. I know that look. It's a man who knows he was exposed for lying.

Nixon had to dump him but quick prior to Nixon being taken out of office. Funny thing, it was on Oct. 11th, 1973. This October Surprise Fitzgerald may be putting together makes Cheney's ticker even more suspect.

Shrub would get to pick a new Veep...Who do you think that'll be ?

In any event, this is "death by a thousand cuts". Chinese water torture by media. That 70's Show (Watergate) all over again. Will there be a Peace Is At Hand moment with Iraq ? Stay tuned.

is a worse crook than Spiro was. Hard to do.

I've thought for some time that this would rock the administration to an extent that would result in James Baker taking over. As "VP" in the manner that Cheney is. I had, of course, not expected the extension last July. But this is a fascinating time, and I think it could make Watergate pale in comparison.

Do you really think the crooks will go down?

the combination of the Plame and the neocon spy scandal combines Watergate and Iran-Contra. In Watergate, more officials were held responsible. However, it was largely a domestic operation. Iran-Contra was in many ways more significant, although a couple errors and then pardons kept people from paying the penalties they deserved.

This case may be more significant, because Fitzgerald and McNulty may have combined to uncover the institutionalized criminal behaviors that brought us the Iraqi war, among other things. It could result in significant charges that go beyond what the first round of indictments brings. It could, if our congress were up to doing their job, result in a serious investigation of the administration.

Yes, I think it may be something that young people on DU tell their grandchildren about. I am a true believer in the Constitution and the idea of the separation of powers. I still believe in America .... just not the Cheney/Bush version. I believe in something that has honor, and I think Fitzgerald and McNulty do, too.

I have my older two children following this story from the beginning. I make them watch the crooksandliars video clips, and Olbermann and everything that makes the news about it.

They think I am silly and that nothing will ever happen to the President or anyone in his adminstration over this - but I can't help feeling that I am witnessing history.

Lets wait and see, yes.!

your children are going to know you were right. It is hard for young people to be able to put this into the proper context, because the world that they exist in is very different than that which was the late 1960s and early '70s. Many of the advances in technology have, unfortunately, hindered young people's ability to process information in other than the "now" mode.

and has an intell background himself while in France; Woodward, also with intell background, ends up doing much of the legwork and keeping the story alive ... nowadays Pincus and a few other connected reporters are keeping the story alive on Miller and eventually Operation Mockingbird (or today's version of the project). This HAS TO become part of the Plame investigation since in order to "out" the agent the media HAS TO be compliant, since the editors have to be letting the story through.

For crying out loud Barbara Bush was sued by Philip Agee when her book alleged he outed Greek CIA personnel; the facts are the names were already known by East German intell who published the names. Not that this makes Agee some kind of hero for what he did, but he did win his case and Barbara Bush settled with Agee. Very interesting scenario there.

So, why would Novak's publisher put the story in print ? THAT is a really good question IMHO. And why would the MSM put it out on The Mighty Wurlitzer ?

that this would have caught an editor's eye, considering the content and context.

badly in today's world. The old farts with it have probably been forced out of the 'journalism community' or are busy promoting the old discredited Op Mockingbird format. Criky, some MSM are even using the military's canned reports and subing their monikers onto it as 'their own'.

Laziness. But I see Daniel Schorr at Christian Science Monitor is onto the story so hope springs eternal !

eom

And he, apparently, wanted her to waive the confidentiality and talk to Fitzgerald, at least about Libby.

How sad for them all.

:evilgrin:

Kinda like a kid with a bad report card...he takes the looooong way home...or the bill you don't want to see...is the last you open.

I'm sure Rove and the rest, through their sources, have an idea that Fitzgerald is about to lower the boom on their heads and now it's a game to play for time. By Rove testifying like this, it may force Fitzgerald to extend the GJ for another term (not that he needs to use all that time)...or have to recall other witnesses and re-check facts.

Remember, boooosh has all but indicated Rove won't go unless he's convicted. This now sets up enough confusion and diversion that could put off any indictments for several weeks and pushes any possible trials past next year's election. This is damage control and creating a distance where testimony gets blurry and jurors get tired and fatigued by a case that just drags on.

By JOHN SOLOMON
The Associated Press
Thursday, October 6, 2005; 3:21 PM

WASHINGTON -- Federal prosecutors have accepted an offer from presidential adviser Karl Rove to give 11th hour testimony in the case of a CIA officer's leaked identity but have warned they cannot guarantee he won't be indicted, according to people directly familiar with the investigation.

The persons, who spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, said Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has not made any decision yet on whether to file criminal charges against the longtime confidant of President Bush or others.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/06/AR2005100601024.html

Watch this for updates:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=Karl+Rove&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d

"they cannot guarantee he won't be indicted"

I guess that's why Fitzgerald was so cool back in July telling him, "We'll get back to you".

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

Plus he's got a real puuurdy mouth ...

I'd love to see Pigboy in a compromising position!

Seemslikeadream? Anyone know how to do it out there?

"what's it gonna take to get you in this LeSabre?"

If only he were some sleazy car salesman ripping off customers in some dreary little town somewhere ...

n/t

:)

and * loyalists. On one side is Cheney, Libby, Runsfeld, Miller et al and on the other are Rove, *, et al. This could get very interesting. :evilgrin: I still wonder what Powell, Teney, and Fleischer are saying and whether they have turned on them all.

It is hard to believe that * would turn on Dick -- damn, I want a crystal ball!

I don't think they like each other at all. It all about power for those two.

will doing anything to save his own ASS. After all the lives he's ruined over the years! Damn it-if it's not CHENEY I want Rove to go down! No one deserves it more but Cheney. God, I hope Fitzgerald doesn't believe anything he says unless it matches with everything else he's got.

is that they are saying that there is no guarantee that, even with this fourth testimony, there is NO GUARANTEE he won't be indicted.

didn't think it would benefit him?

Fitzgerald has him where he doesn't know whether to shit or go blind. At this point I think he'd rat on his own mother if he thought there was even the smallest chance of leniency.

unless he throws someone else under the bus in his place? I think Rove is a coward at heart. If he's truly backed against a wall and it's finally penetrated his consciousness that the only way out of this is to give up Cheney or even Bush, he'll do just that, if it will possibly lighten his own punishment.

on edit: There might also be the mindset that if he's going to go down, he will not take the blame alone. He would resent being made the scapegoat... who wouldn't?

What I like is how smart & through Fitzgerald's being. He played Rove perfectly, & I'm starting to think he played Judith Miller too. He's gathered so much evidence at this point that Rove can't lie, & somehow still got Rove to testify w/o immunity. He's a very good prosecutor.

Wouldn't that be something. No crooked politician would be safe.

Who will trust him now, ESPECIALLY if he turns on all his buddies? Think Rafael Palimero (sp).

Time or Newsweek, the week after Cooper testified, it was reported that Rove's attorney called Fitzgerald to ask if he wanted to see Rove again. Fitzgerald was blunt, and made clear he was calling the shots.

Back in June 2004, on the infamous Plame threads, we discussed the office of the president being in conflict with the office of the vice president. I remember saying that Karl would break, and tattle on the others.

your posts are some of the best.

I've always taken an interest in this case.

Creepy is as creepy does.

let's hope they got more than the teaser they announced already!

If Rove's giving somebody up, it's somebody above him. That may not be disappointing.

who else is there above him?

IMO, Rove and Cheney probably have power issues with each other. Bush's Brain believes he should be in control while of course, Darth Cheney believes he should. Alot like sibling rivalry.

Karl could easily rat out Cheney and still save Bush (he needs him for a pardon).

I'm thinking Rove does Cheney. Bush "reluctantly" tosses Cheney. And whatever Next Nazi they want to be President assumes the position. No need to put a short in Cheney's ticker that way.........

Maybe he is planning on taking the fall, making a bundle in the private sector, working behind the scenes...after he gets his pardon, of course. And then they can pick out the monkeyboy's successor at their liesure....

And brings us full circle to where all this shit started after the Selection!

Before accepting the offer, Fitzgerald sent correspondence to Rove’s legal team making clear that there was no guarantee he wouldn’t be indicted at a later point as required by the rules.

Rove’s attorney, Robert Luskin, said Thursday he wouldn’t comment on any ongoing discussion he has had with Fitzgerald’s office but that he has been assured no decisions on charges have been made. Rove would first have to receive what is known as a target letter if he is about to be indicted.

“I can say categorically that Karl has not received a target letter from the special counsel. The special counsel has confirmed that he has not made any charging decisions in respect to Karl,” Luskin said.

He said that Rove “continues to be cooperative voluntarily” with the special counsel investigation and “beyond that, any communication I have or may have in the future are going to be treated as completely confidential.”

I expect Libby to go in for further testimony too!

This is gettin' good!

:popcorn:

I am just on the edge of my seat - and I have to leave now to go tutor - argh!!!

Noone gets indicted. Noone gets fired. Medals of Freedom all around. Business as usual.

Doubt Fitz and Grand Jury share your gloom and doom.

...and you're getting close.

We've been down this road before - too many times, unfortunately.

We can always hope and pray, tho - and keep the faith!

We must remember that truth has always prevailed in the end.

No matter how long it takes.

THIS IS HUGH!!!! :)

oh....

and SERIES!


Silly mode off. This has made me step away from the "wait and see" camp to the "hopeful" camp. I believe now, that indictments are definitely on their way. Now the key question is how high up will it go. Apparently, from this story, Scooter is being set-up as the fall-guy. Don't let it happen, Scooter!!! Sing like a pigeon!

So will rove be the first to dive?

hmmmm....

There are many ways to tell part of the truth and avoid acknowledging the whole truth.

It is all over CNN! Scooter and Tate won't return their phone calls.

that it isn't hiding something else.

Target Letters are only sent when somebody is called to tetify.

These letters were specific about an intent to indict.

I have heard on the "news" shows that target letters are to inform people that they WILL be getting indicted in the near future. Is that wrong?

they are a target of the investigation. Not that they will be indicted.

Two completely different things.

Rove has been a subject (as opposed to a target) of the investigation from day one, as has all of the the winesses. He was informed of that from day one.

Sigh.

unless he is granted immunity, in which case he cannot be prosecuted for his crimes, only perjury...

That doesn't seem to generate a useful outcome for Rove.

Maybe he thinks he can give non-answers and get out of there, maybe he thinks he can take the 5th and they WON'T give him immunity, maybe he is stalling... I was just pointing out that if he does testify, that could mean some kind of immunity and no indictment.

discussing how "lying to the grand jury" and how Fitz may be going for the "cover-up" and not the leak.

but the cover-up that sank Nixon.

I hope the cover-up goes well into the executive suites.

may the cover-up bring them down.

contemplating such things as prison rape, prison gangrape, what it would feek like to be forced over and a large penis inserted violently up the poopshoot.
It may be one of kkkarl's worst nightmares forcing him to squeal like a piggie, I hope whoever sits above on the target list has the same thoughts going through their evil mind.

Let's hope he only gets what he deserves.

Hee hee hee!

He has certainly fucked enough people in the ass

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Federal prosecutors have accepted an offer from presidential adviser Karl Rove to give 11th-hour testimony in the case of a CIA officer's leaked identity but have warned they cannot guarantee he won't be indicted, according to people directly familiar with the investigation

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CIA_LEAK_ROVE?SITE=CATOR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2005-10-06-15-25-27

I have been too glued to the tv and this thread to venture far - keep hoping for more nuggets!

Begala on - "I think its odd" "his attorney is no longer denying he got a target letter" "Karl has a day job, he's supposed to be running the Katrina relief effort"

Republican - "there are some little strings left over from Judith Miller"

"What is being overlooked here is the threat to national security"

Wolf saying he was not covert.

"Anyone who helped us, is put in the position to not help us again, to put it delicately"

that's ridiculous!

they will eventually turn on each other to try and save themselves, but will only succeed in cannibalizing each other. While Fitzgerald takes the pictures and makes the notes.

and boy, do I hate rats. I've seen long-time friends, even families sometimes, turn against each other, over lesser things than jail time. Money, usually. I hope they are turning big-time - matter of fact, since I think all of them are cowards, really, I'm pretty sure they're turning big time....big rats in a little pail!

They are all selfish, greedy, hypocritical, lying bastards.

They are NOT honerable or gentlemen.

They are all slimy crooks.


This will make for some good entertainment for us, that is sure!

Do I want alcohol, popcorn or sweets for this one?

Decisions. Decisions.

H2O seems to have it nailed IMO. Great thinking people.

...and more importantly, how much jail time would he see if charged and convicted?

If it's a significant sentence, he could be squealing like a pig.

That's what I think of when I see that title. Close enough to reality for me :D

All along I've been worried that no matter what happens, dimbot would just pardon everyone.

Apparently Fitz has flipped Cheney's "aspen cluster." Now it looks to me like he's flipped Rove too. What's the one thing dimbot values above all else? Loyalty. He's not going to pardon anyone who flipped. And it looks like a pancake party now with all the flipping.

But if Fitz still cares about flipping people as high up as Rove and Libby, that means he's got his sights on even bigger game. And the only bigger game in town are Cheney and dimbot. I think the house of cards is going to do a spectacular flameout.

:toast: :bounce: :popcorn: :woohoo:

What are the Vegas odds for a new VP ?

Who can we "TRUST"?

snip>

Chertoff is being kept out of the media, because the people he works for OWN the media. If chertoff goes down, he'll take the entire house of cards down with him.


The title of the article “Trading Privacy (Freedom) for Security” quoting Admiral Studeman belied the past and future attempts of HW Bush, GW Bush and their appointee, Michael Chertoff, to push for loss of freedoms to fight terrorism (PATRIOT Act flaws and FISA court violations by Ashcroft and Chertoff).

In the immediate aftermath of 9-11 former President GHW Bush publicly advocated suspension of the US Constitution and violation of laws by the DOJ and CIA and FBI agents inside the US to allow domestic spying on Americans. This is what Presidents GHW Bush and GW Bush and Chertoff have had in mind all along when they intentionally helped create the terror pretexts they have used to illegally and immorally trade American freedoms and privacy for a false sense of security.

Michael Chertoff was the US Attorney appointed by HW Bush and retained by Bill Clinton for New Jersey from 1990-1994. As US Attorney for New Jersey Chertoff was deeply involved with the 1993 WTC bombing sting operation using FBI monitoring of the Abdel Rahman and Salem’s recruited cell members at the Al Salaam mosque in Jersey City. The US Attorney from New York who worked with Chertoff to prosecute the 1993 WTC bombing case was Patrick Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald is also conducting the federal grand jury investigating the illegal outing of CIA agent Valerie Plame, the wife of Ambassador Wilson who investigated claims of uranium acquisition by Iraq. Chertoff and Fitzgerald were fully aware of the statements made by prosecutors admitting that the FBI intentionally had provided the safe house for Salem terrorist recruits. MORE...

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www_de.cgi/http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2005/09/14/knight-ridder-homeland-s_n_7319.html

These people make Al Capone look like a Sunday school teacher.

Not unless Rove is going to squeal on someone higher up than him, aka either Cheney or Bush.

But that would just prove what I knew all along, Rove is a big fat pig.

But someone has already been decided on:

“I can say categorically that Karl has not received a target letter from the special counsel. The special counsel has confirmed that he has not made any charging decisions in respect to Karl,” Luskin said."

The "in respect to Karl" may mean that they've made charging decisions in respect to someone else. And Karl is going in to do some testifying. The special counsel love to make a deal BEFORE the indictment. Saves time and money and rolls over a lot of rocks for them. Something is happening.

that the Special Prosecutor has not decided WHAT KIND of charges he will make against Rove. It doesn't mean he is not going to make ANY charges.

For example, according to the legal work on this done by Henry Waxman, Rove CANNOT be charged under the Espionage Act with outing an undercover agent because he would not have had access directly to the information.

What he COULD be charged with is not keeping the agreement he signed, when he realized, after Novak asked him about Plame, that her identity was about to be published. He was obligated then, first to tell Novak not to publish the information, and second, to report it to the proper authorities. Instead he 'confirmed' Novak's information and did nothing to stop the outing of the agent.

My suspicion is that initially, to defend himself, Rove may have said 'but I did not know she was undercover and merely confirmed that she worked for the CIA'. However, other witnesses may have testified that he DID, after they were threatened, as H2oman said, by Fitz, (the lower level) with perjury charges or whatever.

The worst that Rove could be charged with for his part in outing her, is not keeping his signed agreement to report and stop such outings, which AIRC, does carry some jail time, and a fine, or probation. But he may have lied also to the Feds, and that would add more charges, like Martha Stewart. He may also have been involved in other stuff, maybe conspiring to out her. So conspiracy charges could be added.

The top tier, ie, Bush, Cheney and some others who would have had access to the information about undercover agents, ARE subject to the most serious charges, Waxman says.

Rove had to get the information from somewhere ~ what Fitzgerald probably needed to know was, who told Rove and how much did he know, ie, did he know that Valerie Plame was undercover, and did he know about her network of spies etc. I'm sure he denied all that initially.

Same thing with Scooter Libby ~ he too merely 'confirmed' what the reporters asked him about. He too, cannot be charged for outing her, only with not preventing it, once he realized someone was about to do so. And then, the same as Rove, lying to the Feds, and maybe conspiracy ~

The lower ones, Hadley, Gonzalez, et al, I don't know what they could be charged with, but AIRC, Gonzalez, after he was told by Andrew Card I think, waited 12 hours to do what he was supposed to do.

Judith Miller's role is still a mystery, but Fitzgerald must believe she was more than just a reporter who had a source, but did not use the information. If Libby gave her the info, then he did commit a serious crime.

What I can't remember is where Novak claimed to have gotten the information. Oh, yes, he said two administration officials. Wow, this gets more and more complicated. And then there's the Chalabi/Miller connection!

KKKRove will testify to the fact that Bush and Cheney knew about Plame and ordered the leak to Novak to get even for Joe Wilson's op-ed piece. How many people who face life in prison don't cover their asses by singing? Man, I so hope this goes to THE TOP.