When I was in..

It was either princess or bitch, working on the flight line in Alaska.

Apparently, in the field in Iraq takes it to it's logical conclusion
http://sltrib.com/utah/ci_3102537
The other choice to being a bitch, writes Operation Iraqi Freedom veteran Kayla Williams in her recently published memoir, is "slut."
"If you're a woman and a soldier, those are the only two choices you get," Williams writes in Love My Rifle More Than You: Young and Female in the U.S. Army.

Gee, fifteen percent of our army knows she's either a bitch or a slut. I'm sure that helps the overall effectiveness and goodness goes without saying it boosts morale. As if we care about female morale.

Nice to know we belong. Nice to know we have the right to defend our nation. While we're defending ourselves from it. Sure, women were made to multitask. And surely none of them are putting their lives and welfare in jeopardy while they navigate this issue. While they avoid all the staring eyes. Sure, I'm sure no women have been put at risk by this.

What can I say. A bunch of losers that can't figure this stuff out.

What was the line from "Dances with Wolves", "Why don't he ever write?" Yeah Why doesn't she ever call? Cause you all sent her out with the wolves, then blamed her for being there, that's why, friggin idiots.

'cause you know if they ain't a slut, well, they're obviously lesbians.......

:sarcasm:

but I'm willing to bet they're lumped in with bitches. Cause they don't put out, ya know. 's all we're good for, you know.

Cause we're not as mechanical and not as good at math. Means we're only semi-human, because our strengths aren't the same as theirs. We're smaller, more dexterous and better at fine detail, better language and communication skills, less violent, yeah, we're less "human." Can you say self-centered and selfish? I can. Sergeant.

When I was in, I had a major practically lose it because I asked them to purchase some maternity greens. I could not purchase them myself, because they were a specialty uniform item, not available for purchase at the AAFEES store. He became unglued, basically thinking that because I couldn't work on the flightline, there was no reason for me to have a utility uniform.

I worked in support section. I handled and handed out tools, TO's (technical orders manuals for working on the planes, big black binders with all the part numbers and locations, instructions, you get the picture, every job had an accompanying TO, and I managed them all) as well as handing over parts. Greasy stuff, dirty, straight off the planes, thick black grease that WOULD NOT come out of a blue uniform.

The uniforms we had to maintain and wear EVERY day could not have spots, holes, or any type of visible wear aside from some fading.

I needed the greens, and it didn't have anything to do with me wanting some feminist agenda requirement, it didn't have anything to do with anything but my job. I remember this major, I remember staring at the gold colored insignia, thinking, soon those will be silver, he's going to make rank, and he just told me, basically, that I'm not worth anything, even though I do the job (AND the lifting) as well as anyone else.

All he wanted me to know was that I was a pregnant woman that was not welcome. He yelled at me that they wouldn't be purchasing those uniforms. Even though I could not buy them myself. I wasn't asking for much, but it turned out, just asking to be there was too much.

Just for being there.

But no guys, everything's okay, sure, don't worry about the female of the species. I'm sure we'll be just fine. Even if you don't want us around. I'm sure we'll make do.

I'm sure most of those jerks standing around never even noticed. Or smirked. Yeah. So I can have a baby, I need to feel shame. Sure.

I think sometimes young women around me in public don't know just how MUCH I'm watching for anyone to mess with them, because the only thing I want, as this point in my life, is for other women not to have to deal with this poison. I'd wish the men would be watching as much, but too many of them are part of this ugliness. I know. I saw it myself. No one spoke up for me.

Later they changed the policy and I bought those maternity greens. By then, I was working in an office job, with other geek programmers, and NONE of them gave me an attitude about it at all. They thought it was just FINE that I wanted to wear the utility uniform, like them, indoors it was more comfortable and easier to maintain. They didn't have a problem with me at all.

Love geeks!! Geeks rule. Flight line? Well, they're pretty cool, pretty tough, taught me a thing or two, but I'm sure to most I was just a bitch or a princess, so how much can I ever respect them? I've been mechanical all my life, and I really wanted that job. Even so, to most of them, I didn't belong. I was wrong just for standing there.

Their problem. Not ours. There was hardly anything I could do but leave, and after hurting my shoulder, with many nasty comments about how I was faking...I cross trained. Hell with them. They may be cool and tough and smart, but in failing me, they showed themselves less human than many others. Their problem. And I'm still a bitchy princess :)

that's the best kind! (And describes my daughter to a "T" :) - Moi? I was just the bitchy part...lol)

Sounds like you've led an interesting life anyways - and hopefully have educated/enlightened a few people along the way.

I used tell people that if I only influence ONE person to change their mind/attitude - that was sufficient.

Being a parent, though - I have the chance to really influence at least three other people significantly. So far, so good.

"hopefully have educated/enlightened a few people along the way."

I never really thought about that much, but it's a good thing to hope. hehe. Bet those guys I worked with never told a women she coudln't pick up an aircraft generator again. Messes their faces all up when one can. *evil grin* Oh I should have done that more often. It was hard though!

We all have our own little corners of the world, for sure. Thanks for visiting mine and sharing yours :)

with every right to be so. I guess I was one of the lucky men, I came away from childhood knowing that girls, women, ladys were the greatest things on earth. It troubles me as I'm sure it does a lot of other men to see you lady's discriminated against and taken advantage of. Just thinking about it makes this old man cry.:grouphug:

That was very kind, thank you.

I'm sorry to leave such a negative impression, I've got to say, I've been privileged to meet many wonderful men who would have never sunk so low as to be mean and rude for no other reason but gender. Most of the men I worked with weren't like that, it was just the lousy ones always made themselves known, if you know what I mean. An influence. But there were many who defended me a time or two, and many who didn't and would NOT play that game. And, please don't' waste any time feeling sorry for me, I was often times...guess it shows...a hot head, so being "on my side" wasn't always an easy thing to do. I "accidentally" changed the whole web policy at a command, once, because I fired off a email to a reporter that complained about our site access. My poor colonel had to step up and defend me, and to his credit, he did, bless his heart. That one was my fault, and if it hadn't been for his good nature and ability to smooth it over (I was just flippant, but from a web site admin, it wasn't appropriate...even if the reporter was dumb as a doorknob) it could have gotten us ALL in hot water. All my fault, not good. But he didn't use me for a scape goat at all. In fact, I think he got a kick out of it; I was very sarcastic. :) He went out of his way to be fair, when he didn't have to at all, and I've always been so thankful for that.

I'd like to send out much appreciation for all the many guys that helped me out, stood by me in difficult situations, and some were even a little admiring of me less-than-feminine qualities, in a nice way, like they would another guy. Some of those guys, sometimes, were the only thing that got me through it all, I think. Like, before I knew I was expecting my first child, I was active duty, and I fell asleep waiting around after work, because I was taking a night class, with a few hours that didn't make it worth going home before class. I fell asleep laying down right there on the hanger floor; I didn't know why I was so exhausted, but I was dead tired. And, one of the guys came over and put his coat over me. Big burly sorta guy, big sweetheart :)

It's remembering stuff like that, the flightline guys, that makes me hate this war over and over again.

I've worked a lot of different jobs, lots of times I'm the only female there or only one of a small handful. The best places I've worked were crawling with geeks. Not only were they open and receptive to what I had to offer as a co-worker, they were unafraid to show emotion.

When I announced my pregnancy to my buddies, my co-worker geeks, I was nervous because I had no idea what to expect. I'd heard in other depts. that pregnancy was the 'kiss of career death' in the big Fortune 500 company I worked at...

But it was so amazing! All of these geeks that had kids came running over to congratulate me, whipped out their wallets, showed me the baby pictures that they still had of their college age kids! lol They immediately started telling their wives birth stories, were getting all choked up (including my direct manager), and quickly talked about how we'd work on any scheduling issues that came up!

I know that would be wonderful if all women had that same experience, but I know it's not the norm. I know how lucky I am to have had it...

You're right... geeks rock. They rock so much, I married one! :)

i've always been a freak. freaks and geeks go well together.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4814647

Fresh Air from WHYY, August 25, 2005 · Kayla Williams is a former U.S. Army soldier who served in the Middle East as an Arabic interpreter. She recounts her decision to enlist and her experiences during the Iraq war in a new memoir, Love My Rifle More Than You: Young and Female in the U.S. Army. Williams was a sergeant in a military intelligence company of the 101st Airborne Division.

_____________


as i remember she was a college grad and casting about for meaning. she signed up for existential reasons i would say. she said she chose "bitch" and went on to unpack what that meant -- which, as she went into it, sort of became a term of honor. i had the same initial reaction as you, but as i listened to her story i tried to put myself in the shoes of people at war. then i realized it's a lot like MY EXPERIENCE in the workplace.

i've always been the kind of person to shoot for an integrated work dynamic. everyone should carry their weight and be a grown-up. i guess i was a kind of "slut" in the broadest sense. a pushover for people who would use underhanded methods. i never believed "trolls" exist in team environments. surprise! they DO!

i'm much more successful now when i'm "bitch." war, business -- it's all patriarchy.

we have a challenge. it's not about making the military more friendly to women -- it's about making the WORLD less dangerous to COOPERATION. making room for LIFE to take hold.

Your post leads me to suggest this book: The Chalice and The Blade by Riane Eisler. It really addresses these issues in a historical context and puts forth a vision for the future that you may find interesting, if not acheivable in this lifetime. I loved it....

it had just come out when i was in school. i was a philosophy student doing lots of feminism and liberation philosophy, so it became a text -- a framework. i was disappointed in the Partnership Way -- the workbook for facilitators. i don't blame the authors for that -- i think the time wasn't ripe enough to see it clearly.

interesting you bring this up. i was thinking yesterday that DU could big dose of non-Dominator theory and practice. it's so ironic to be here, forming community; partnering to bring new ideas to the fore -- and be attacked by Dems in Dominator mode.

have you read "When God Was a Woman?" very useful way beyond the historical analysis, too. loved it!

Got that one too. All about it. The chalice & blade was required reading in college for me too...so cool! It is definitely an idea whose time has come, I think, to be inserted more prominently into the consciousness of the liberal movement. Men need to understand that we are not attacking them and do not want to subordinate them (as they have done to us).When many men understand that, I think it will be seen as more viable. That seems to be the biggest stumbling block...that men see "feminism" as our way of doing to them what they did to us; making us "beneath" them. They don't understand that it is a totally different way of relating.
Let's discuss this more(putting it into DU).......when/whereever appropriate.

here's my thing:
we're largely "there." we had a glimpse into partnership society in the Wired Revolution that Clinton and (especially) Gore, fostered. people have a taste of a new reality. that was the hard part. we're to stage of figuring out how to recreate in our daily lives; our communities; our governments, etc.

right now i'm interested in this dang old bird flu thing b/c the response of the left and the right is all akimbo. a Chalice and Blade theme is emerging, tho: people have to overcome a good bit "dominator" thinking when issues of healthcare/medicine are in the offing. like no one who isn't a doctor or a high-level scientist can possibly understand and adequetely take of their health. it's a major dogma. only doctors can diagnose. i've been mis-diagnosed when i was on death's doorstep multiple times. lemme tell ya -- you are your only medical advocate. :banghead:

someone in another thread just tried to "dominate" me by saying, "unless you're a doctor," i didn't "need to be spending 8-hours a day" on "worrying" about bird flu. i was totally confused for about 5 seconds and then realized, "oh yeah, i'm just a girl (or whatever non-doctor status). i can't possibly have an informed opinion on medicine and science.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5031895#5032464

this bugs me on another non-feminist level. what ever happened to Renaissance "man." whatever happened to expecting people *can* be educated in arts, science and letters? it's not outside of comprehension for a non-doctor to have taken enough Biology to understand a WHO report.

those issues are so deep rooted that I don't think many people realize that they can be changed...they honestly believe it is the innate nature of humanity. Changing that fundamental perception is going to be to be hardest, and catching our often unconscious practice of it quite a challenge also.
Which leads me to another book and way of thinking......The Four Agreements. Speaks of changing your memes and your unconscious habits.I think this is a natural progression or Ms. Eisler's work.Have you read? It is a great idea but so VERY hard to put into practice!!! I was so proud when a good male (Marine!!) friend of mine told me he was reading the book and trying to put it into practice. You never do know.....
As to the "do you have the experience" thing,that is definitely been true for me.I seem to be a good judge of character in general and have a strong instinct for what someone is going to do or the way things really are. I can often look at a situation and judge it correctly the first time out.....only to be proven right months or years later. Many ppl don't take me seriously because they do not understand how I could know something it took them years to learn--but sometimes I just do, you know? Most of that is relying on my inner strengths as a woman. Men have it too,they just don't tap into it very often, and in such a patriarchal society that skill is dismissed as "woman's intuition" and "just a feeling". So annoying when, later, I get "oh, you were right all along..." Ak.

Great post, I especially agree with "they honestly believe it is the innate nature of humanity". I liken it to slavery. It used to be A-okay to have slaves in society, world wide. But not now. Women used to be property. Not now, or at least, not so much now, and not as socially acceptable now and not in western societies.

I don't know, I get very discouraged, I see a lot of blindness when it comes to sexism and how we live our lives. Too silly too often, and I've just always felt that way about female society as I've perceived it. It would be nice if more women stood up and said something, you know? It would also be nice if they didn't have to. At times, I just think, gee this is really a male problem, and all they have to do is stop it, stop allowing it, in their male dominated society. Male dominated, what, are they only good at dominating women, don't they dominate each other, for goodness sakes? All they gotta do is knock it off.

Really, all they have to do is recognize this problem with themselves and treat it accordingly. This attitude in society hurts everyone, and grown intelligent men ought to be able to realize that. Men who see fit to treat women as less than human should be treated as less than human themselves, because those attitudes lead to the downfall of ALL, not just women, but the general welfare and health of the entire society. The fools that see fit to take women out of control ought to be targeted by OTHER men. Men ought to target the other men that prey on and put down women, because, you never know, one day the girl/woman you help out might be someone you care about. If enough of them did it, went out of their way to target this attitude and those that hold it, the problem would cease to exist

I mean, DO something with your damned male dominance already then, would ya guys? You know? WE are not suited to fix this problem. YOU are. We were put on this planet to love you and bear your children? You were put on this planet so we could, you were meant to defend the nurtures. It's rather past time, the planet is friggin falling apart at the seams.

woman I encountered during Basic training, she was a West Point cadet who was doing some kind of required training where she trained us. She was sharp as a whip, in better physical shape than any human has a right to be, and although she could be a real hard-ass (typical West Pointer), she could also be very cool.

Probably one of the most impressive women I ever met in the service.

Honestly, I feel extremely sorry for anyone who ever subjected her to treatment like that, first she'd kick their ass, then she'd kick it again, then she'd be a lady again :). She was cool.

and I'm just as sure she didn't get enthusiasm from the majority of her male superiors. You know what I mean, it's a very perverted attitude.

The women that did the best in the military, in my military experience, were those that dressed and acted like sluts. No lie. Even in uniform, they'd find ways to make it "sexy". On the flight line, some of the gals were known for having the guys do their job. How much of that was behind the back gossip about her from the guys, it's hard to tell. But I know quite a few did okay just by being exactly what they were expected to be; sexual. Eye candy.

And it wouldn't' be so bad to be eye candy, if it were more acceptable to be more than just eye candy. But it isn't. When I carried the aircraft generator to the truck, I was jeered at. Then, silence. It was like...oh, well, so what, we'll just ignore that. So you're just as capable as us. So what, we still don't think you should be around. Sad.

My mother told me when I was a baby I took my crib apart. I didn't break it, I literally took it apart. I used to disassemble the coffee tables, which would then come crashing down. I love tools and grew up playing with the many machines my dad had hanging around, him being a tech of medical machines. I was born a mechanical freak with the muscles and brains to back it up...and the military didn't do a damn thing with it. Just because I'm female. Sad. Just sad.

up in traction :). She only stood about 5'3", but I would NOT want to mess with her :).

What branch did you serve in, and where (if anywhere besides Alaska) where you stationed? I have to say that during my personal experience in military, I found it to be the least discriminatory place I've found in our society. Thats not to say I didn't hear horror stories from people now and again...

From basic training to Germany and California...although it seemed to get somewhat better by my last tour.

Keep in mind the military is still ran by the boys. I don't think it'll get better until we get competent leadership...civilian and military, both.

discriminatory place in American society. My wife has served 21 years as well - has had more problems with civilian men than military men by far. That said, it's FAR from perfect.

But I'm a little reluctant to sketch out when and where else.

I can see how it would seem to be less discriminatory, and in a lot of ways it is. Even for women. But the thing is, especially in the predominantly male fields, there's still a lot of time-honored macho attitude, and it's all about authority in the military, so you can see how problems along those lines can get ugly when entrenched. Now, how that has changed, or in what ways it's changed in those intervening 10-20 years since, I can't say.

There was a share of women, but I was stationed at outlying field clinics. Two of those I was the only woman majority of my time with them.

Basic training was the worst. The drill sergeants said a lot of insulting things to us. We were the first female company in that section of Ft. Dix. Not to excuse what the DI's said, but they had never dealt with female recruits before. This is why I think the leadership was so poor. Even one of the DI's propositioned me more than once. I wound up avoiding him like the plague and stayed away far enough that eventually he stopped.

This was back in '86.

-- male dominated that is. Never had a problem since she was commissioned back in 1984. Times have changed for the better.

Sorry about your experience--that sucks.

PENTAGON A government survey finds more than six out of ten female National Guard and Reserve vets say they were sexually harassed or assaulted.

But it says less than a quarter reported it, and many who did were encouraged to drop the complaint.

More than half the cases involving women were verbal harassment, while eight percent involved rape or attempted rape. The survey shows nearly half of the women respondents said the trauma occurred while on duty.

More than a quarter of male Guard and Reserve vets said they experienced some type of sexual harassment or assault.

The survey was conducted by the Veterans Affairs Department and released by some Democratic lawmakers.

http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=3917232&nav=5D7lBwNh

are for the active duty and what the stats are for women everywhere. I bet women in every sector of the workforce get "verbal harassment" at some time or another. I don't think the military is that much worse.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9709/11/army.sex/

The report offered a searing portrait of an Army where sexual harassment and discrimination are "commonplace."

Commanders were accused of ignoring problems and not taking steps to stop inappropriate conduct, which the chairman of the panel, Maj. Gen. Richard Sigfried, said most often "took the form of crude and offensive behavior."

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0194239.html

Politicians weren't the only subjects of investigations in 1997. A series of sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, and sexual discrimination complaints in various branches of the armed forces erupted, resulting in numerous investigations and courts martial. In November 1996, several female recruits at the Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground complained of sexual harassment by drill instructors. The Army instituted a hot line that soldiers could use to anonymously report incidents of sexual discrimination, harassment, or assault. Those accused were removed from their posts pending investigation into the charges. By the time the line was 9 days old, it had logged over 4,000 calls, leading to more than 550 investigations. There were 12 indictments at Aberdeen alone. Staff Sergeant Delmar Simpson was convicted in May of rape and sexual misconduct, and sentenced to 25 years in military prison.

In June, Maj. Gen. John Longhouser, the commander of the Aberdeen base and convening authority for the courts martial, announced that he would retire rather than face possible charges of adultery. Also in June, a drill sergeant at Aberdeen testified that he was part of a sex ring targeting female trainees. In July, Lt. Col. Martin Utzig, commander of 7 of the accused drill sergeants at Aberdeen, was suspended.

A cloud of sexual misconduct also loomed over the nomination process to fill the impending vacancy of Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The top candidate, Gen. Joseph Ralston, admitted to having had an extra-marital affair a decade prior to his nomination. Normally the topic would not have been raised in the context of such a nomination process, but the Air Force had dismissed its only female B-52 pilot, Lt. Kelly Flinn, only weeks before for what amounted to adultery charges. Ignoring Ralston's admission would have been tantamount to sexual discrimination since they would be selectively enforcing the military's code of conduct, which prohibits adultery. The committee was spared the high-profile decision when Ralston withdrew his name.

http://www.sldn.org/templates/press/record.html?record=261

WASHINGTON - A legal aid group that defends gays in the military says anti-homosexual harassment in the services declined slightly last year, largely because of improved Army training programs.
But the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network says in its seventh annual report on the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy that anti-gay behavior remains common in all the services, including among officers.

The report issued Thursday says many commanders continue to violate the policy by overzealously investigating the sexual orientation of service members. The policy allows gay men and lesbians to serve as long as they keep their sexual orientation private and do not engage in homosexual acts.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-25-academies-women_x.htm?csp=34

WASHINGTON — A culture that devalues the role of women in uniform makes it easier for rape and sexual harassment to occur at the Army and Navy academies, according to a Pentagon task force report released Thursday.
"When women are devalued, the likelihood of harassing and even abusive behavior increases," said the panel of 12 military officers and civilian experts. It proposed wide-ranging action, from better admissions screening to revamping antiquated military rape laws.

Congress ordered the review of the Army and Navy academies after a 2003 investigation at the Air Force academy found sexual assault "a part of life" for cadets. That investigation arose after almost 150 women came forward to say they had been assaulted by fellow cadets between 1993 and 2003.

Why do you hate America?

But it's a valid point. All kinds of inhuman behavior is considered normal in the military.

Torture for another, now.

Granted, those are in extreme combat situations, but I don't think anyone can seriously say that the active duty military is as professional a workplace as any office. You can't say the things that are regularly said in the military in the workplace.

Dunno about where you work, but in my office, no one spray paints the copier with racist epithets or calls women bitch or slut.

I understand that soldiers find ways to desensitize themselves in combat situations, but that is exactly it...the normalization of inhuman behavior to justify the inhumanity implicit in the job.

I'm not sure what you mean, the discussion here, of what some men manage to do to military/work culture, or the broad brush so many of them paint us with. Who's doing the painting? Perhaps you are denying the issue as a predominantly male problem altogether? I can't tell.

But in any case, I never sexually harassed anyone, but have been and do know personally other women that have. And worse. In the military and out. Broad brush? Hardly our fault we're painted by it.

All we have to do is STAND there.

You might want to ponder what that's like, getting painted just for being there, before the person even hears your voice or knows your name.

It is insulting to discuss these issues in broad terms? To me, it is insulting any man would not want to discuss them; how else can he even perceive the problem if not for listening to the "other" side? How will the problem ever end if men uniformly become indignant about what so many of their gender do to others?

It is hardly our fault we're less violent and aggressive, and it hardly does us ANY good when men fail to recognize that simple difference, simply because it makes them look bad in some of it's aspects.

Just for standing there. Think about it.

but then, I spent all my time in the Band field.