I hope you Kerry supporters are proud of your guy

That little "fax" was completely orchestrated by Kerry's campaign, and they KNEW Woodruff would bite because it injects "drama" into the debate.

That was one of the lowest, most underhanded ploys I've ever seen, and Dean dismissed it easily, and then Kerry gets to stand up and say "No you didn't" with NO REBUTTAL?

I gave up on the guy long ago, but I didn't write him off into the Untouchable category with Lieberman until tonight. Thanks for showing your true colors John.

:grr:

John-John Jr has no ideas left, so all he can do is copy others and attack attack attack.

he just slipped to #6 on my list.

How come everything negative done in Dean's campaign is actually done by a Rove operative, but anything that happens in another campaign is never a Rove operative?

sleazebag

When I coulda sworn that Dean, at least, said to keep what's going to the middle class alone. Or maybe that was John Edwards?

did not get a tax cut.....

4 bucks a month, man!

:)

Christ, get on the meme boat people!

last I heard, Dean was attacking Kerry because Kerry was trying to keep the cuts for the Middle Class in place, and he wanted to repeal the whole thing.

Peepers

He was TOTALLY prepared for that little bit of teeball.

Totally planned, and totally disgusting.

The media folks have been wanting to promote a firefight between the two since Dean's comment about Kerry,"say it to my face".

Bastard uses right wing talking points when he attacks Dean and Gep on the tax cuts and Dean on health care. For those who may not know it, Kerry voted against Clinton's health plan when the Dems controlled both houses of Congress. Ya think that helped Gingrich take over in '94, Johnny? Do ya?

The '95 proposal was a Republican assault on Medicare, and Clinton disavowed it (along with every self-respecting Democrat). The '97 proposal was completely different - and not what Gephardt was referring to.

Dean is Newt-lite. ;-)

is (ahem) stratospheric, sweetie. And I've no doubt lived (and noticed) a hell of a lot more of it than you have. Don't try playing "gotcha" with me on history. I know exactly what you're referring to and you know exactly what I'm referring to.

I don't doubt you've lived your fair share of history. Do you know what I'm referring to?

That was rude, no matter how you meant it. I took you off ignore. Not any more.

But you are absolutely right. I got caught up in the cheap slinging going on, and I was incredibly rude. Only a little while afterward, I am shocked that I said it.

To Hedda: I apologize deeply. I don't know where that came from, but it certainly came from me. It was the basest form of argument, and I'm ashamed that I ever wrote it.

That's the Kerry campaign for you.

Eloriel

Who were the only candidates not to attack any of the others?

May have been others. Lieberman wasn't too offensive IIRC.

Kucinich took a few swipes at Dean as I recall.

What on earth for?

from kkkarl

Makes sense.

:)

I've been listening to the Sox game.

Judy read a "fax" from Kerry's supporters in the back with some smear about how Dean kicked the elderly off their prescription plans or some such bullshit. Dean got up, refuted it, and then Kerry got up and denied knowing anything about the question, and went into attack mode.

I am suprised the mods allowed it.

They wrote, directed and produced it! Starring John Forbes Kerry.

Quinn Martin would have been proud.

This was orchestrated by them.

His "Marsha Marsha Marsha" petty jealousy act was getting OLD. But this was just plain DIRTY POOL.

Kerry is desperate and it's really showing. He was never on my A- list, but he fell completely off my radar tonight.

I've not said anything like this before. I always thought he was a good guy, albeit a dreadfully boring one with an annoying tendency to whine about Dean like Jan Brady. But this was just too damn much.

Another thread that is bound to turn into a pissing, flame contest.

The process will work itself out. If Kerry is a scumbag as you people say he will not be selected to represent the Party.

Take a deep breath here. How about starting a thread espousing all the wonderful things Dean said or did.

(Disclaimer: As much as the Dean people irritate me with their high school zealotry, I must admit I like the man and want to support him)

I've never said anything about Kerry besides that he didn't have fire, and I said that maybe twice several months ago. The rest was just the "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything" & "it's better to say something positive about your candidate than something negative about the other one" approach.

But this was really a low, dirty, underhanded thing to do. If some of us who have taken the high road for such a long time have snapped tonight, I think we have just cause.

I was very disappointed in him on many levels, but I didn't dislike the guy.

And unlike some Dean supporters, I don't reflexively start a thread every time he's attacked. This little tactic of Kerry's was too far for me to just sit here and not say anything about it, and the Debate threads are too unfocused to have a decent conversation about this.

I was even thinking of working for him if he got the nom (thought I'd rather it be Dean or Clark.)

This is simply a straw breaking the camel's back - he went too far. The respect is GONE.

Since I was sitting here watching all you good people give play by play as I was studying the uncompromising study of Genetics, What EXACTLY did John Kerry do to set you folks off?

Did you see Kerry's reaction - it was like he braced himself for the shot of adrenalin going thru his veins

He's got my vote at the moment.

Gee, your standards are impeccable.

Christ, they're not running against Limbaugh, they're running against each other and Bush, and this little tactic that set up Kerry's "joke" is something Limbaugh would have loved had it come from a Republican.

we're running against the 30+ years of rightwing shit that rush represents. do you want a fighter or a nice guy?

I would have APPLAUDED that line had it come in response to an AUDIENCE MEMBER'S QUESTION instead of a "fax" from Kerry supporters, the lone fax read by Woodruff.

I'm all for sticking it to Pigboy, but Kerry could have done it without the bullshit "fax" scam.

I'm not actually deciding my vote on that. If you are referring to what I think you are which is the little bit about how Dean blackmailed the the Republican controlled legislature into passing his cigarette tax and John Kerry twisted his words into Howard Dean made drugs expensive for seniors, then I think he was absolutely at fault for this. HOWEVER, Dean should've rebuttled.

I didn't see it

no spoilers!!

what channel?

If your guy can't rumble with Kerry, they can't rumble with Bushit.

:-)

Kerry was helped in his little sliming by a willing Woodruff in pursuit of ratings.

If Kerry had just straight up brought it up, I would be a little bugged, but not nearly as much as this "fax" bullshit.

Did the Dean supporters get to send faxes? Why was that the ONLY fax read by Woodruff? It was complete bullshit.

I expect a lot more from Democrats, and later, Rove & company.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

:toast:

next to Lieberman, because he was the first one to STAND UP so he could block out the others and get ALL the attention to himself. THEN, neither Kerry nor Lieberman would sit down when their time was up. Did you notice how Kucinich was trying to look around Kerry as he was pontificating?

And that fax! That was the dirtiest trick in the whole debate. It is apparent to me that Kerry will get as down and dirty as he can get away with in order to win this nomination.

My wife and I. His attempted "hit" was so stupid, that we will not support him nor vote for him should he get the nomination. We'll stay home.

I'm convinced that he is not bright enough to be President. There is an old adage in the legal profession...never ask a question that you don't know the answer to. His attempted attack on Dean (enabled by Woodruff..) was so ridiculous it is laughable. He attempted to portray Dean as uncaring to Medicare recipients, when in fact, Dean was just doing the right thing by forcing the legislature to pay for the increase by a tax increase on cigarettes.

This makes Kerry look terrible. It totally backfired. Dean explained it and Kerry looked like a fool. To make it even worse, Kerry attempted to dismiss Deans explanation. It looked totally stupid.

Kerry will never get our vote.

n/t

They deserve 4 more years of bush.

This is not something new for you.

We would have supported him.

He's an idiot, and his campaign is a joke.

Are you quoting Shakespeare? Surely you couldn't have come up with that yourself!

You've been bashing him for months.

that sfecap didn't decide last night to NOT vote for Kerry. After all, the evil Kerry has a 2nd home.

I can't find it anywhere? :kick:

during the debates. I think it's more of CNN trying to stir it up by reading a Kerry one, so to single out Kerry is wrong imo.

The Dean people are over-reacting? :freak:

No. I have never seen a campaign insert a fax into an audience participation forum like that. Dean handled it well. Kerry should have stood back and said he did not think it was appropriate to do it that way.

It has nothing to do with being a Dean supporter. I would be outraged no matter who he did it to. If Dean pulled an ugly stunt like that I would be furious at him as well.

CNN took a fax that all campaigns continuously issue during the debate to set up Dean. Of course Dean isnt to blame for it and had every right to be upset, but people should direct their wrath more at CNN than Kerry.

The debate was moderated very sloppilly as well.

to set up one candidate like that is unprofessional and pretty disgusting, i think. Even if theyre for the idea of "mixing it up", they should still try to be fair about it.

He hurt himself in a position where he could've scored some major points with the majority of the viewers who don't hate Howard Dean.

I'll give him the benefit of a doubt on that. I do blame him considerably for trying to smear Dean after Dean had provided an excellent refutation of the attack.

Woodruff seemed to be working for Kerry at the end, first by this incredibly unprofessional setup and then by letting him "rebut" Dean's rebuttal of his campaign's smear, and then by giving him two questions in a row at the very end so that Dean never got another word in. It was very nasty business.

Kerry endorsed the tactic. He should've taken Woodruff to task. Kerry's response was unprincipled, underhanded, and very unpresidential. Criticism is one thing. Backstabbing is quite another. Kerry hurt himself tonight more than he realizes.

From what I can see in this pathetic stream of whining, the people who didn't like him before still don't like him, and may even hate him. But he didn't lose any votes here 'cause he never had 'em.

that means a lot.

:eyes:

But I do agree with you on one thing:

"But he didn't lose any votes here 'cause he never had 'em."

I wonder why that is? By all rights, Kerry should be the frontrunner right now. But he's not. Hmmm...

Just so you know, I was leaning towards Kerry until I decided to support Dean about three months ago. IMHO, Kerry is running a miserable campaign.

I'll stick with Kerry, and wait for things to fall into place.

Dean is running on what he's not. That doesn't impress me much. Neither do his policy speeches.

why do you think judy chose that particular one to showcase? and why do all of the repubes want dean to be the candidate?

let's pay close attention, folks. let's nominate a candidate that repubes don't want!

I can't believe the people who fall for that. They fear Dean, they use his name to scare their base. I think it's a riot.

Julie

to talk to delegates to the national covention. He is trying to lock up their votes early and not let them look at all the candidates.BTW, LOOK at rules for the Convention. Only a tiny minority are actually from the vote in the primaries. The rest can select whomever they want, and Kerry was trying to lock them in, and this was a month and a half ago.

Incumbency, name recognition, getting a lot of contributions for the party all count more than "WHO WOULD BE THE BEST PRESIDENT and WHO DO THE PEOPLE WANT?"

Can do no wrong

http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=507901

I am sure there is a spin for this too. Politics aint pretty. I wish it was better than this, but right now no one but us political nutjobs are paying attention to this.

A "Dean operative" (btw, am I an operative? When do I get my Operative badge?) forwards some info to MSNBC about discontent in the Clark campaign =/= Judy Woodruff reading a fax from Kerry supporters that's a completely untrue smear in the middle of the Questions From The Audience segment of the debate.

I like Kerry, and I am shocked. The "politics ain't pretty" stuff is baloney. Reserve that kind of underhanded stuff for the other party.

And your St. Dean stuff is silly.

I'd much rather debate Ecosystem degredation in the Southwest. LOL...

I admitted to SweetZombie that I hadn't seen what Kerry did. Tell you what...I'll wait to see how it washes out. See what the Kerry people say about it.

If it is what you people are suggesting, then it shows Kerry is desperate and is losing his cool. If Dean is beating him, then he needs to get back at Dean with ideas, intellect, vision.

The St.Dean was just a takeoff on the belief I have that Dean has NEVER done ANYTHING remotely wrong in the eyes of his supporters. I like Dean...If he can earn my trust on corporate monopolization, environment and a few other things (and I can live with his gun stance -that I dont like-, because that's probably a decent play), then I would have no problem going with Dean.

Although if what you say about Kerry comes to fruition, then Im sliding over to Edwards.

I don't like Dean's position on the death penalty, I think he needs to loosen up a lot more, and he's got a tendency to go negative when it's not warranted.

He's not perfect, but I believe he's above the kind of RW tactic that Kerry participated in tonight.

It bothers me, just like his gun position...Not that he's against gun control, but that he is playing both sides. IE, Im against federal gun laws, BUUUUUUUUUUUUTTT I won't touch the ones we DO have.

Huh?

Makes no sense. The Dean folks have tried to explain this take to me ad nauseum and it never makes sense.

Dean, I believe, is principally a states-rights advocate on guns, BUT...won't advance that agenda. Of course, there is a degree of pragmatism there I will admit that he can't repeal the Assault ban or Brady, because they are gun laws most Americans ARE IN STRONG favor of.

Still, if those laws "work" and the American people "are in favor" then why not keep the option open?

His death penalty is more garbage. Again, I pick holes at Dean, but most of what he is about is on time. So I could handle supporting him if he stays straight with some other issues. ... Again, issues Im not totally sure about him. That's why he's never been in my top 2 or 3.

Because its fucking non-sense.

How is that for WHY I don't "get it"? I can be a big giant dick if I wanna be. Implications that I "lack" will be met rudely thank you.

As far as Dean...When he produces a position on guns or cap punishment that isn't unadulturated garbage I'll be the first to celebrete the guy.

What kind of 2nd amendment man do you want defining the law of the land?

I know NRA ratings sound good on the campaign trail, but personally I think that gun control is a FEDERAL problem.

but I must say I am a little "weirded out" by the charge that if I disagree with Dean then I "don't get it".
This dismissal of non-Dean supporters by the Dean camp frankly scares me. And I am not optimistic of the chances of Dean broadening his support beyond his "base" in the general election due to this frankly very weird attitude about "not getting it".

So IOW: STOP SAYING WE "DON'T GET IT"! Thank you.

On guns Dean feels what we have now on the federal level is enough, and any more laws should be done by the states so that gun owners in CO or TN don't get stuck with the laws that were meant for New York or Florida. It is a good plan that doesn't attack gun control, repeal anything, or weaken any existing laws... but also doesn't piss off gun owners who are a major voting block who vote on this issue is about 6 key swing states that went red for Gore.

What harm to gun laws does Dean's stance do? He is not against more laws... he just thinks if a state wants more laws, the people of the state can do so. These are the kinds of issues over which states should have more control.


On the death penalty... he's against it for all but the worst offenders and only when guilt is proven, which is exactly what it should be used for. Sorry but if someone murders a little kid, that fucker has got to go.

Though I do think our methods of execution are barbaric and should be replaced with simple painless poison... how the hell is an electrocution chair not cruel and unusual?

what works in Vermont and New Hampshire won't be the same as what works in Florida or DC. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Of course, we could push for federal gun control and lose yet another election because of that particular issue.

Instead of carping about the guns, why aren't we doing anything about the root causes of gun violence? Why not take a look at poverty, unemployment - why not take a serious look at why young people in this country are so angry and violent?

That would take time, energy, and effort. Far easier to blame the guns. Getting rid of the guns isn't going to be the answer to our problems. The violence will still be there. There is a great deal of violence perpetuated against homeless people. It is almost universally done by teens. Removing guns won't alter the equation.

He played fair, and he made good points. Dean was given very little chance to speak during the debate. He did ok when he did. I was not trying to be ugly to you, just so very upset that our own candidates would do that.

Kerry could have called Judy W. on it, and gained a lot of respect.

And boy didn't he show that tonight. That whole budget thing was exactly what Dean said it was...a battle over a cigarette tax. This was the kind of thing that went on all the time between Dean and the legislature. He would tell them what he needed from them, and if they were being difficult he'd force their hand by showing them exactly what he'd have to do if they didn't make the choice he needed from them. If I were Kerry I'd be more concerned about his family ketchup business using tomatoes bought from companies that use child slave labor than cooking up lame lies to try to make gains on Dean. It's pretty bad when you suck so bad that the only way you stand any chance of getting ahead is by lying. We already have a liar in the White House, and we don't need to replace one liar with another one. Kerry is a lying loser.

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Do a search on google with the key words "Heinz" and "Child Slave Labor" and you'll get hits to a report. At least he's consistent about his forced community service of kids.

Kerry supporters are constantly pissing and moaning about Dean criticizing Kerry for his votes, which he made the conscious choice to make those votes. The stuff Kerry is spewing is LIES and personal attacks. That is lower than low and after this despicable trick hell will freeze over before I vote for that lying piece of pond scum. I don't have a problem with honest criticism, but these are blatant LIES and that's the last damn thing I want to vote for. And anyone who claims that is a vote for Bush can kiss my lily white ass. If Dean doesn't get the nomination, I'm writing his name in.

If I felt it was worth the effort, I'd put it up for everyone to see what a paragon of integrity you are.

That's what his dumb plan is for forcing kids to do community service in order to get a diploma.

That's also entirely separate from the child slave labor thing, though. Heinz is one of several companies in the US that was found to have been buying products from places that use slave labor. To make matters worse, that slave labor is going on right here in the USA by foreign migrant workers. Heinz buys tomatoes from growers who have 4 year olds picking in the fields all day long. Google it if you don't believe me.

The truth is that Kerry's plan forces no one to do anything. Kids will only be required to do community service IF AND ONLY IF the state they live in decides to take part in Kerry's proposed program, which is EXACTLY as it is today.


Today, the states can require students to perform community service, while the Feds cannot. Nothing in Kerry's proposal changes that in any way

to try to smear Teresa Heinz. They lived in Vermont, too. hmmmmmmmm......

MAJOR U.S.
CORPORATIONS PROFIT
FROM ILLEGAL CHILD LABOR

By David Foster and
Farrell Kramer
ASSOCIATED PRESS


Fifty-nine years after Congress outlawed child labor in its most onerous forms, underage children still toil in fields and factories scattered across America. The poorest and most vulnerable among them start working before other children start kindergarten. Many earn wages below the legal minimum, often in exhausting or even hazardous jobs.


These children live in a world apart from most Americans, hidden from consumers and even the companies that buy the products of their labor. But those products can be as close as the local mall or the corner grocery. In the last five months, Associated Press found 165 children working illegally in 16 states, from the chili fields of New Mexico to the sweatshops of New York City.


They are children like Angel Oliveras, age 4, who stumbled between chili pepper plants as tall as his chin in New Mexico's fall harvest. Children like Vielesee Cassell, 13, who spent the summer folding and bagging dresses in a Texas sweatshop. Children like Bruce Lawrence, at 8 already a three-year veteran of Florida's bean fields. AP (Associated Press) was able to follow the work products of 50 children to more than two dozen companies including Campbell Soup Co., Chi-Chi's Mexican restaurants, ConAgra, Costco (formerly, the Price Club), H. J. Heinz, Newman's Own (from actor-Paul Newman's personal label), J. C. Penney, Pillsbury, Sears and Wal-Mart. (In rural towns throughout America Wal-Mart is widely recognized as the cartel that moves in, drives mom-&-pop businesses into bankruptcy, and then relocates to suit its own profit-picture with no regard to the devastation to small communities. WFI Editor).





http://www.worldfreeinternet.net/news/nws58.htm

You really are getting pretty desperate.

Dean let his legislature know what sort of tough choices would be in store for their state (and constituents) if they didn't act.

For all the talk of talk choices, and we know the value of talk, Dean has shown he knows how to make them and how to convice others the wisdom of doing so too.

I do have to say part of the credit for this tawdry bit of the evening must be shared with CNN and Judy. They had the discretion to pass.

It was tacky on the part of all involved.

Julie

And if Kerry had one ounce of decency, integrity or honor he would not be such a pathetic liar. There are so many things about him I just don't like at all. There are some positions he holds that I'm downright furious about. But this assenine behavior tonight is the final straw. I can honestly say I truly despise Kerry. Once a Skull & Bones liar, always a Skull & Bones liar. Like Bush, like Kerry.

Seriously, I'm just going to let you do your thing.

I'm simply sharing my view that Kerry is basically nothing but a festering, oozing shit polyp.

What else is he?

I think what Kerry did was so over the line that his supporters won't even try to defend it...

Really. Wow. Great maturity. Great class. Great acting in the interest of the party by viciously attacking one of its leaders.

This entire thread is truly disgusting.

See the Politics/Campaigns forum for my thoughts on the fax thing.

with a lot of people here...? Again, obviously yours is another vote Kerry never had nor could have had. But the S&B stuff is so desparate it is truly pathetic.

I discovered he wanted to force children to do community service in order to get a diploma. That is the most ignorant idea I've ever heard. When Kerry supports forcing welfare recipients, people on disability, social security and collecting unemployment to work in order to get social services, THEN he can tell my children they can't get a diploma unless they work doing the things criminals are made to do for punishment of commiting crimes. I won't vote for ANYONE who supports this plan of his, period. His fax stunt was not only an outright lie, but his smug expression afterwards left me with nothing but total disgust for the man.

That is a ludicrous, cynical spin on this proposal by a man who has spent his entire career as a public servant fighting for the interests of those who needs society's help the most. He is proposing incentives for community service. He is looking to harness community spirit wherever and however it may exist. He is not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to or for whatever reason simply cannot. The insinuation that he is proposing "slave labor" IS a lie.

Meanwhile, the fax stunt wasn't a lie. Dean made a careless comment which he dismissed as a "silly" threat that he didn't really mean, and Kerry rightly pointed out that he had in fact "said it". If you detected smugness then it's because Kerry must be endlessly amused that Dean has said in the past, and continues to utter, such careless stupid things. Kerry has been a candidate for political office far longer than Dean, and is far, far beyond him in terms of political savy and the instinct to know what you should and should not say in the arena of public debate.

Dr. Dean said that was "silly," explaining that he had only threatened the Republican-controlled Vermont Legislature that the elderly would lose their prescription coverage if they did not pass a cigarette tax, which they eventually did.

Mr. Kerry said, "It's not silly, it's what he said."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/10/politics/campaigns/10DEMS.html

"We're going to propose a combination of cuts in (health) benefits, increasing co-payments and deductibles to the extent allowed by federal law, and increasing General Fund dollars," Dean said in a recent interview.

"Medicaid now covers a certain number of benefits, and we are going to recommend to the Legislature that they not cover certain benefits," he continued. "What we are not going to do is remove anybody from the health insurance rolls."

The state's Medicaid budget has been growing steadily over the last several years, pushed both by Dean's aggressive efforts to expand the number of Vermonters who qualify for the program, as well as by the swiftly rising cost of prescription drugs and other medical treatments.

Dean and the Legislature in recent years have financed some of the Medicaid growth by turning to special revenue sources such as a cigarette tax or the proceeds of a legal settlement with tobacco makers. But those funds are reaching their limits, and will not be able to protect the state General Fund in the coming years.
http://www.rutlandherald.com/legislature/archives/healthbud.html

* Medicaid: Gov. Howard Dean proposed deep cuts in the health insurance program that serves the poor. In particular, he suggested eliminating some medical programs and increasing the amount that people must pay for their pharmaceutical assistance. The House voted to restore some of those cuts, but only by as much as a 36-cent per pack increase in the cigarette tax would fund. The Senate Appropriations has recommended to the full Senate restoring nearly all the spending because the Senate has agreed to a cigarette tax increase of 67 cents per pack. The Senate is expected to vote on the budget bill containing the Medicaid proposal Monday. Differences then would be negotiated.
http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/46461.html

Sounds like the original motive for these cuts was budgetary rather than a negotiating tactic with the Repubs doesn't it?

that was bullshit what they did to Dean.

I thought he recovered quite well though.

And I wouldn't think kerry would want to be lumped with woodruff.

Zidzi, is there anything any of the candidates can do that is right? I won't bother asking if Dean can do any wrong.

<>

people who question Kerry?

that as Kerry said, he had no idea they were distributing that particular document. He didn't know they were doing that, how is it his fault? How is he a bad guy because some people on his campaign got carried away? Some overzealous intern probobly got all excited and started handing those things out, and you could tell from the look on Kerry's face when Woodruff brought that thing out that he was not a happy camper. Somebody is going to get chewed out if not kicked out for that little episode. So let's try not to blame this little episode on Kerry himself, because he had nothing to do with it!

Peepers

This was orchestrated.

it is what Kerry happens to have an opinion on. He happens to know, in order to be an educated candidate, the administrative histories of the others. It's so easy to claim something like this was orchestrated, but what real concrete evidence is there? Is there some kind of CNN-Kerry conspiracy to smear Dean? NO! Some of Kerry's people got carried away, and Kerry stood up for that statement because he happened to agree with it. God forbid the man know something about Dean's history.

Peepers

by basically calling Dean a liar. He expressed no outrage about an underhanded tactic when he had ample opportunity to do so. Even if he still disagreed with Dean, he should've pointed out that the tactic was uncalled for.

that he had no knowledge of that being passed out. He didn't condone it either, but his time was very limited. The priority for ANY candidate in that situation would have been to refute the opposition. I think Dean would have done the same thing in Kerry's place.

Peepers

He did not. Dean said a one sentence defense and said down, to his credit. Kerry kept on. Do not excuse it. I would not excuse it if Dean did that.

He fell into a obvious right wing trap. He could've easily put down Woodruff for the tactic and then refuted Dean. He didn't. IMO, he made a serious miscalculation. And I don't buy for a second that he had no knowledge of a FAX that his own staffers were passing out.

yet it just happened to be dropped on Dean while he was up, and Kerry was given rebuttal to a rebuttal on a talking point his own people sent in? Please tell me in what debate this kind of crap has even taken place before... the mod reading a blastfax talking point from one candidate's camp, and then letting him attack again... yet not allowing Dean a single word for the rest of the debate.

Sorry there is no excuse for this.

None.

I think this was all intended to try and ae Dean blow his top, and Dean won tonight if for no other reason than he showed he can keep his cool under even cheap crap like what Kerry pulled.

I'm sick and tired of you people demonizing John Kerry for something that was not his doing. I don't know if you've been paying attention, but the CNN people had been kicking around the idea of displaying the faxes that each campaign staff was producing (which all, to my knowledge, of them were) to the targeted individual. They then scrapped that idea, but some people thought it was still a go, so the fax ended up getting brought up. If you should be angry at anyone, you should be angry at CNN and that damn Woodruff. None of it was planned, there is NOT a grand conspiracy between CNN and John Kerry, and I'm sick of people tearing into John Kerry like he's the antichrist. Back off! I'd like you to produce one shred of evidence that shows that Kerry did this intentionally with malicious intent.

Peepers

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Hell, I support a candidate willing to fight in a vicious manner. This is the party of LBJ.
I also see a lot of bullshit on this thread on the order of "I was leaning toward Kerry until..." Yeah, right

It's the same old crowd of hardcore Deanies complaining. They use this tactic all the time, "Oh I was favoring Kerry before... or - He was my second choice but now..." everytime Kerry does or says something they don't like. I'm sure next time Kerry attacks Dean then for the tenth time all of a sudden they will not like Kerry although they supposedly did before, lol.

Seriously, if this isn't the same old gang of Dean people, pretending like Dean has run anything resembling a clean campaign, then I don't know the meaning of "hypocrisy."

Sorry if you didn't appreciate the fax rebuttals. It shows Sen. Kerry not only is smart, he has a smart staff.

Get this FACT: No matter what you or the rest of the bashers write, Sen. Kerry gave precise answers that showed why he's the best qualified candidate to serve as President of the United States.

What's the matter, Ho-Ho have a bad night?


EDIT: Took out extra "Kerry" in second sentence — It shows Sen. Kerry not only is Kerry smart, he has a smart staff.

I didn't say I was smart.

I have said so many times here. Tonight, no matter which candidate he and Ms Woodruff pulled that stunt on, he lost my respect. Ho Ho, to you as well.

I am upset about nasty way Woodruff handled things, and Kerry enabled her. No excuse.

There are those who say "I like Kerry" and those who say "I like Dean." Given that, the arguments on each side are easily extrapolated. What an excellent way to waste everyone's time. Of course the candidates are going to shoot at each other, and of course the supporters of each are going to defend whatever they do, and villify the one they don't support. So what does this add to the debate?

Not... a... damn... thing. Lotsa posts, though!

It's underhanded and doesn't reflect at all well on his campaign. But I'm not willing to write him off. And of course, I don't mean write off as in wrap myself in my own self righteousness because he doesn't fulfill my every wish like a genie--I would have to see him as completely unnacceptable and incapable of governing better than Bush. He'd have to slip pretty low to cross that line. Plus, it's unclear as of right now whether or not Woodruff used a fax for a purpose it was not intended--namely to divert attention from Bush and focus it back on each other.

to each other instead of huffing and puffing indignantly away. Frankly I find the Kerry people a hell of a lot more patient when it comes to listening and entertaining criticism. And that makes sense considering Kerry's cerebral approach to issues and calm and measured presentation style.

And I'll say it again, the Dean supporters scare the crap out of me with their self-righteous indignation and refusal to consider any sort of criticism of their man. I know for a fact I have been put on ignore by some of the more zealous Dean supporters. And I see right here in this thread declarations made by Dean supporters to put certain people on ignore. Why can't Dean supporters brook any criticism of their man? Is he beyond question? Is he accepted without any scrutiny? If Dean is the nominee then this utopian ignorance does not bode well for us down the road.

I took a break because this fighting seemed worthless a few months ago. It seems even more worthless now. There are a lot more Dean supporters here, but that doesn't mean a few Kerry supporters won't go to extreme lengths. The people that get my respect on both sides are those who aren't so quick to "write off" a candidate (sometimes more than once) everytime some "shocking" revelation comes out. You also don't have to turn into a dumb mule because you like a candidate--recognizing someone's faults is just as important as recognizing their strengths. I like Kerry, but if this was an intentional swipe by his campaign, it was not an action to be condoned. More likely it was Judy's idea to pit them against each other. And isn't it working out great?

You keep at it with the "Deanie" crap again and again. That is so damned lame.

Gee, these guys are saying something that doesn't sound like something I would say - oh my oh my what shall I do - shall I try to understand and maybe help them understand me - or - no - wait - I've got it - I'll call them "Deanies" and a bunch of other names!!! That ought to do it!!!

Earth to you: I'm not a "Deanie" - I think he's a good candidate. I think Clark is a good candidate. Hell, I even think Kerry is a good candidate once in a blue moon, when he's not whining about Dean like Jan Brady or boring me to sleep. I'm a Democrat with an open mind - the one I vote for in the primary will be the one who proves to me he's got the best shot at beating Bush.

But no, don't let that stop you. Don't go to the trouble of providing a decent response. By all means, proceed with the name calling. We're all quite used to it by now.

That was the question. BTW I fixed my post for you since the "name" I used seems to be such a blow to the psyche of Dean supporters.

But we do agree on wanting to find "who's got the best shot at beating Bush." And while the Kerry supporters are willing to entertain accusations that their man has his weaknesses, the Dean contigent does not seem as willing. And I will point out here now that the whole reason for this thread is that Dean has a very bad way of saying something stupid, which can be construed and used against him. And Kerry's response was true: "It's not silly, he said it."
Dean said it. It's up to him to owe up to what he said.

PHOENIX, Oct. 9 — Gen. Wesley K. Clark, the newest entrant into the Democratic presidential contest, was repeatedly upbraided by his rivals at a debate here on Thursday night for what they said was a muddled position on whether he would have supported the Congressional resolution granting President Bush the authority to invade Iraq.

Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who until now had been the primary target of attacks from the other candidates, first noted that General Clark had advised a candidate for Congress last year to support the resolution and then appeared to change his view.

...

This debate, the second with General Clark, had several heated exchanges, and Dr. Dean did not escape unscathed. At one point, Judy Woodruff, the moderator, noted that Mr. Kerry's operatives were distributing material suggesting that Dr. Dean had tried to end prescription-drug coverage for the elderly.

Dr. Dean said that was "silly," explaining that he had only threatened the Republican-controlled Vermont Legislature that the elderly would lose their prescription coverage if they did not pass a cigarette tax, which they eventually did.

Mr. Kerry said, "It's not silly, it's what he said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/10/politics/campaigns/10DEMS.html

I think that is really unfair of Kerry to attack Clark like that. He really should focus on Bush, like Dean has since the beginning.

---

Regarding Graham, Dean sought to smooth the waters with his foe after saying on Monday that the senator is "not one of the top-tier candidates" seeking the party's nomination, a comment Dean regretted.

---

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, the doctor-turned-politician running for President, offered a diagnosis yesterday of the other top Democrats in the race: "They need a backbone transplant."

---

"I'm Howard Dean and I represent the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party."

<>

crickets in the dark...

First off all the things you quoted were true. Clark has flip floped on support for the war in iraq, graham was not a top level candiate as his drop out shows, and the dems do need spines.

And none of those were delivered in a debate by the moderator reading a blast fax from the dean campaign.

How many times has Dean stepped on Edwards - who never has a bad word for anyone?

Seriously, there is no candidate that Dean hasn't gone after at some point during the race, and has reserved a special spot for Kerry.

Let's take a look at one example:

''A bunch of the people who voted for this war are now saying, `Well, we were misled,''' said Dean. ''The fact is you can't afford to be misled if you are running for president of the United States.''

----

That hits a bunch of people, but is clearly meant for Kerry. But let's take a stroll down hypocrisy lane, shall we? Here is Dean, less than one month early on MTP:

Russert: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president. It turns out that what the president was saying and what his administration's saying wasn't so. We don't know why that is. So...

Russert: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country.

Dean: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that. And Bob Graham is in a position to know. He's a senior senator on the Intelligence Committee and...

Russert: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

Dean: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled. Now, the question is did the president do that on purpose?

Was he misled by his own intelligence people? Was he misled by the people around us? Or did he, in fact, know what the truth was and tell us something different.

I've called for an independent investigation headed by Republicans and Democrats who are well respected in the country to find out what the president did know and when he knew it.

http://www.deanrocks.com/page.cfm?p=1&c=9

Dean has run a slimy campaign from the beginning. He toots alot of bells and whistles to hide the fact that he doesn't have much of a platform to run on.

And now that people are beginning to hit back, he whines that everybody is picking on him. I'm sure the GOP will give him a free pass.

Your whole crap attack there falls apart on one point, Dean was against the resolution, then and now. Dean saw it for what it was and said the president had not made the case for war.

Even saying he thought Saddam did probably have some chemical or bio weapons... Dean was still against the war and instead supported a continuation of the inspection process to find any weapons.

Dean is quite correct, and there's nothing slimy about it, if millions of people like you and me knew that this war was bullshit, why didn't Kerry? Because Kerry was only worried about his career, not what was right. Kerry wasn't fooled... if he was he's too stupid to hold the office he is in, let alone president.

He knew it was bullshit but he thought it would help him.... he thought it would boost his strong war hero image for his presidential run...he was wrong. And now he's got nothing left but crap like what we saw tonight.

I won't miss Kerry when he loses the primary.

Dean wasn't so vehemently opposed to the war as you seem to believe. Take a look at http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/20626605.html
for a more accurate assessment of Dean's beliefs on the Iraq issue. I quote - "It is concievable that we may have to act unilaterally " for example. Also, let me point out that Kerry was NOT ONLY WORRIED ABOUT HIS CAREER. It sure seems easy to criticize people on this issue, to shout that there were being little Bushites and pandering to public opinion. Perhaps they voted according to what they thought was the right thing to do! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=53845&mesg_id=54003&page=
Check that out for a more detailed analysis of Kerry's decision to vote for the resolution. I think you should be more careful, and try not to put THOUGHTS IN OTHER PEOPLES MINDS. I think you're being a bit rash to say "He knew it was bullshit and he thought it would help him..." In fact I think you're being an ass. Let's baselessly attack a man who's fought for years for what he believes in, Gay Rights, the Environment, Workers Rights, the list goes on and on. He has never let polling data get in the way of what he feels is the right thing to do, I thought you should know that. I won't miss your bitching when Kerry wins the primary.

Peepers

I quote - "It is concievable that we may have to act unilaterally "

Dean was real clear that the only way that unilateral action would be justified was if there was proof of WMD, the UN refused to act, and there was an imenant threat... none of which happened.

In fact the piece you pulled that half quote from is also clear about that.


Dean has always supported a unilateral U.S. attack on Iraq if the nation posed an imminent threat to the United States or its allies. As early as October, Dean told reporters in Des Moines, "It's conceivable we would have to act unilaterally, but that should not be our first option."

<...>

Dean repeated last week he would support war in Iraq without support from American allies or the United Nations "if Saddam is an immediate threat to the United States."

"If he has nuclear weapons, if he has a nuclear program that's significant or if he is giving weapons to terrorists, those constitute an imminent threat to the United States," he told The Des Moines Register. "I do not believe Saddam is an imminent threat."

I know this cause I remember the chant from about a year ago:

We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.


Oy!!

Julie

Kerry, Dean, Kucinich, Sharpton, and Braun (at the least, I'm not sure about Edwards and Graham, but I doubt those two said that) never said that. IOW, less than half of the candidates said that.

they sure were rattled off in a blast answer by Howard Dean. Don't forget what the fax said was accurate, as well.

Peepers

I see you all over this thread callingout Dean supporters, demanding they comment on your brilliant post but I do not understand what it is you want.

I can understand how some of what Dean says would be upsetting to you. After so often having to hear:

We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush.

It must be quite a shock to the system

Julie

stunt was below the belt. Kerry is #1 on the dirty tricks scale now. He appeared somewhat nobel previously, now he just appears slimey.

He did himself a greater disservice then Dean.

In the debate he was talking about the US renewing it's weapons research. But he missed the vote on that! :eyes:

He would have gone to vote. He has a deal with Daschle on that count.

And Dean was just as free to show up for a "symbolic" vote, as well.

Kerry will be able to set a strong anti-nuke agenda if he takes office.

not to campaign!

Nuff said?

Dean being unemployed and all.

Not unless he is the winner in bid-a-vote...courtesy of Diebold.

GE and Kerrys' stock in same is happy about him missing the vote.

Shall we talk about all those environmental awards that IBM won in Vermont over the 90's?

Is this really what you've been reduced to? We used to have actual debates, and now look at yourself. Sad when you think about it.

He just does not have what it takes. The only way he is going to win is by buying the election. But his frat brother George has more money and diebold is all about the Lucre. But you seem to mistake me for a Kerry supporter when in reality I like Dennis. Now there is a man with balls and class.

so attack Dean.

Why does Kerry think he should be president, when he's currently blowing of his job in the senate to capaign... he has sat out some very important votes.

You do know that Daschle keeps vote counts and if Kerry needs to be there for a particular vote, he is there.

You do know that the Repubs used this talking point before any Dem presidential contender used it, right?

in which his vote would have had no decisive impact. Which is more important -

A) Attending a vote, the outcome of which will be unaffected by your presence
or
B) Get your voice heard, campaign, get liberal ideas out among the people to start countering the Administration's propaganda. Try to build up your base of support because you want to become President in order to make this country a better place.

I think it's an easy choice to make.

Peepers

like the partial birth abortion ban.

Oh, by the way, are you from Massachusetts?

in the October vote on the very same issue, Kerry voted against the partial birth abortion ban. So no, he dosn't want to avoid it. He's already voted on that issue once. This time, his vote wasn't needed. He has an arrangement with Tom Daschle, every time his vote is needed, he's there. Get your facts straight before you go on a Kerry-Bash-A-Thon.

Peepers

These are big boys and girl who play for keeps. The difference between them (and their staffs) and the bashers around here is that they'll work there asses off to defeat chimpy when the time comes.

Didn't Kerry steal the "Take Back the Flag" phrase from Dean too? I swear I saw Dean's head spin around on that one.

Kerry said it first a long time ago. Can we have enough of this firsties campaign. Everybody uses everyone's ideas and do you know why?.....I will tell you, because THEY ARE ALL DEMOCRATS.

.

Taking back my country.

I always thought that "I said that first" crap was a bunch of crap.

You don't see me whining that Dean stole Kerry's foreign policy, at times word for word, or that he stole his 2020 policy. I guess its just a matter of some supporters whining a little more than others.

Don't mind my unravelling. I always get a little feral on these fast-moving GD discussions. You've been rock solid, even as people from all over slam your candidate.

opposed the civil unions bill.

Why would Gore say "Take back America". Wasn't he the VP?

He loves that corny populist schtick.

Kerry's been saying that for a LONG time now.

Dr. Dean said that was "silly," explaining that he had only threatened the Republican-controlled Vermont Legislature that the elderly would lose their prescription coverage if they did not pass a cigarette tax, which they eventually did.

Mr. Kerry said, "It's not silly, it's what he said."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/10/politics/campaigns/10DEMS.html


* Medicaid: Gov. Howard Dean proposed deep cuts in the health insurance program that serves the poor. In particular, he suggested eliminating some medical programs and increasing the amount that people must pay for their pharmaceutical assistance. The House voted to restore some of those cuts, but only by as much as a 36-cent per pack increase in the cigarette tax would fund. The Senate Appropriations has recommended to the full Senate restoring nearly all the spending because the Senate has agreed to a cigarette tax increase of 67 cents per pack. The Senate is expected to vote on the budget bill containing the Medicaid proposal Monday. Differences then would be negotiated.
http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/46461.html

The tone of the Times-Argus story sure sounds like the Kerry version, but the facts seem to back up both of them -- sure Dean is putting it in its best light -- though this story seems to suggest the original motive for these cuts was budgetary rather than a negotiating tactic with the Repubs:

"We're going to propose a combination of cuts in (health) benefits, increasing co-payments and deductibles to the extent allowed by federal law, and increasing General Fund dollars," Dean said in a recent interview.

"Medicaid now covers a certain number of benefits, and we are going to recommend to the Legislature that they not cover certain benefits," he continued. "What we are not going to do is remove anybody from the health insurance rolls."

The state's Medicaid budget has been growing steadily over the last several years, pushed both by Dean's aggressive efforts to expand the number of Vermonters who qualify for the program, as well as by the swiftly rising cost of prescription drugs and other medical treatments.

Dean and the Legislature in recent years have financed some of the Medicaid growth by turning to special revenue sources such as a cigarette tax or the proceeds of a legal settlement with tobacco makers. But those funds are reaching their limits, and will not be able to protect the state General Fund in the coming years.
http://www.rutlandherald.com/legislature/archives/healthbud.html

<>

"Medicaid now covers a certain number of benefits, and we are going to recommend to the Legislature that they not cover certain benefits," he continued. "What we are not going to do is remove anybody from the health insurance rolls."

The state's Medicaid budget has been growing steadily over the last several years, pushed both by Dean's aggressive efforts to expand the number of Vermonters who qualify for the program, as well as by the swiftly rising cost of prescription drugs and other medical treatments."


Dean expanded Medicare coverage a lot... and none of these guys talk about the fact that these few recommended cuts in the level of that growth were AFTER Dean had pushed for massive expansion of the program. The also ignore the fact that this was a temporary trade off to cover more people and to got this tax on smokes to fund more growth and coverage.

Kerry's attack is basically like going to a car assembly line in the middle and claiming the car company makes cars with no windshields. Kerry ignored that what Dean did, worked and coverage in VT is better as a result.

is that Dean was __ing (fill in the blank) when he said that this was just a ploy to get the Republicans to pass 'his cigarette tax'.

As you and I both pointed out -- the truth is -- these cuts were proposed for budgetary reasons.

Dean would not say just how much money he hopes to save by cutting Medicaid benefits or by increasing premiums and co-payments charged to enrollees. An administration proposal last year would have saved some $2 million by increasing fees charged to Medicaid recipients when using health services.

Dean also would not say exactly which benefits he might propose cutting. Under federal guidelines, states have discretion over a menu of some 33 benefits they may offer under Medicaid. Pharmaceuticals make up biggest single cost-center that states may pare back
http://www.rutlandherald.com/legislature/archives/healthbud.html

Dean EXPANDED coverage, then to get even more funding to keep doing so he put forward a tax on smokes... the republicans in the state resisted and Dean said that they'll have to make these cuts if that wasn't passed, and he got the tax passed.

But with nothing to attack Dean on, these gus like Kerry and Gephardt have to twist decade old statements and spin them as if Dean was pushing the cuts instead of presenting them to push the tax on smokes.

as you pointed out, that's not true.

again, an offer they couldn't refuse. Fund medicare or we have to make cuts. It's a brilliant solution to the situation IMHO, and one more reason Dean is getting my vote.

"* Medicaid: Gov. Howard Dean proposed deep cuts in the health insurance program that serves the poor. In particular, he suggested eliminating some medical programs and increasing the amount that people must pay for their pharmaceutical assistance. The House voted to restore some of those cuts, but only by as much as a 36-cent per pack increase in the cigarette tax would fund. The Senate Appropriations has recommended to the full Senate restoring nearly all the spending because the Senate has agreed to a cigarette tax increase of 67 cents per pack. The Senate is expected to vote on the budget bill containing the Medicaid proposal Monday. Differences then would be negotiated."

He said gave the legislature a choice (an offer they couldn't refuse)... raise the cig tax or we will have to cut programs.

I understand at times Government is faced with difficult decisions, and I think raising the cig tax was a good way to handle the situation. Smokers create a bigger burden on health care. Additionally cig companys donate large amounts of $$ to Republicans.

can anyone point me to a summary of what happened and what folks are talking about?

Thank you.

When the other candidates learn to put the screws to the BFEE the way Kerry did with his investigations into BCCI, Iran-Contra, and the S&L scandal, I'll be just as proud of them.

Why do you always bring up BCCI? If Kerry had really been fighting BFEE they would all be behind bars right now. If Kerry wins and that is a big if...what do you want to be his first act is to pardon GW for any and all crimes he may have comitted?

Have any of you who beat this tired dead horse drum even bothered to READ any of the Kerry "reports" onm BCCI and Cocaine-contra.

Bush is not even MENTIONED in his conclusions regarding possible wrongdoing or further investigations.

YES the reports themselves provide lots of "links" to ALL of the BFEE -- but a FAILURE to name BUSH I as a principal operator in the BCCI and Cocaine-Contra drug running schemes under his DIRECTION and under Reagan's doddering nose AND the failure to recommend further investigation of VP Bush amounts to a total coverup protecting Bush and the whole BFEE criminal enterprise.

Kerry let his Skull and Bones Brother Bush Walk pretty

we need that type of cleverness to go against bush

Bush v. Kerry

Two nasty underhanded elitists playing king of the mountain with our country and our planet.

F*ck 'em both, please. with YOUR appendage.

Kerry is a slime and so is woodruff