Fitzgerald's Case: Clues Suggest This is Much Bigger Than We Know

Like most of us, I have followed this case closely. Keeping track of who said what, always keeping an eye on any proof of criminal conduct. So it has been Rove & Libby, Libby & Rove, 24/7 for the last few months.

But what if this is much bigger than I realize? What if it is much bigger than we all realize?

Here are a few clues that Fitzgerald is hunting bigger fish than just Rove & Libby.

1) The original "senior administration official". When this leak was reported about in the Washington Post (9/28/03), they quoted a senior administration official who outright stated that two WH officials called six reporters and leaked Valerie Plame info "purely and simply for revenge."

Let's think about that for a second. Doesn't that senior admin official sound outraged? So outraged, they were willing to spill the beans to one of the biggest newspapers in the country. What else did that senior administration official know about the White House? You can be sure that Fitz has talked to whoever it was. And if that person has a bigger beef, Fitz hit the jackpot.

2) The judges ruling on Cooper/Miller & the redacted pages. We all know about this but let's think about it in context to what we know now. The judges were incredibly alarmed by what Fitzgerald had found so far. Do we all really think that Fitz only presented them with evidence of Libby & Rove's lies? Fitz had to have proof of their perjury and conspiracy at that point. Big deals for sure but so big that the pages had to be redacted? No, I think there is something bigger at play.

3) Fitzgerald's compromise with Miller. Why is it that Fitzgerald was willing to limit his questioning to Miller now when he wasn't willing to do it at first? I remember reading some article at the time of Miller's release that said that Miller's testimony wasn't the centerpiece of Fitzgerald's case. Instead, it was just a sideshow to the real event. At the time, I dismissed it but if Fitzgerald was truly chasing only Libby & Rove, only on these issues, I doubt he would have compromised. To me, the compromise suggests that Fitzgerald is ready to reveal his full hand. Judy was just the period on the end of his sentence.

4) Fitzgerald's questioning. Sure we know alot about this case but most of it has come from the lawyers involved with their clients. In other words, we have only gotten slivers of perspective from attorneys that weren't even in the grand jury room. The biggest clue about Fitzgerald's whole case comes from his line of questioning. Notice what he continued to ask Miller about? Cheney. Notice what he wanted to talk to Rove about? Someone other than Libby & Miller. Fitzgerald is hunting for info on people besides Rove & Libby because his case is much bigger than that.

5) The sheer number of frightened Bush admin witnesses. I think there is a great chance that after two years and talking to dozens of witnesses, adminstration officials with beefs with each other, ex-administration officials with beefs against the administration, reporters who don't want to go to jail, Fitzgerald has weaved together a case that is much, much bigger than we know.

I keep coming bact to the redacted pages in the judges' opinions last summer. This will prove to be very big indeed.

just be COLIN POWELL. I can't say why, it's just a hunch. Something about the way he left, and the timing.

That was my hit, too, frankly. Things are about to get REALLy interesting.

I have a feeling we're in for a very big week.

:popcorn:

last week on Hardball? I know I read it here. I don't have a link though.

So I didn't hear that. My bet is on Colin Powell regardless.

I have been waiting for the stink to get so bad that one of the "insiders" would reach their tipping point. Colin Powell makes the most sense to me. He was allowed to make a fool of himself at the UN with his little vials and pictures of who knows what shredding what smidgen of integrity he had left. Exposing the identity of a CIA NOC may have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

to that sort of disclosure, being a career military man. I have also always believed he is a man of character who was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'll buy him seeking redemption, but I won't buy him being a man of fundamental honour. At best his "character" would seem to be quite context-sensitive...

Someone commented that the other guests just looked at her in stunned silence. I don't think it was Andrea Mitchell, it was that Greenspan chick.

FYI

didn't watch only read about it here. I had no idea she was married to Greenscam.

for justice. I guess he felt he owned us one after going along with this admin on the Iraq war scheme.

:kick:

I think his conscience finally caught up with him. If he indeed loves his country as much as he claims to and seems to, something like this would push him over the edge. He's a career military man, not a politician and his duty to country would trump Party loyalty any day. At least I hope it would. Seeing what this mob of criminals were doing to our country strictly for partisan gain was more than he could take.
I'd love to believe in Powell as a patriotic American again. He lost me when he sold out to the BFEE but he could regain my admiration and trust by exposing these criminals. Let's hope that's the case.

He is a media creation. The man was the architect of the My Lai coverup. His son, Michael Powell, formerly of the Fcc, learned his lousy values at his daddy's knee.

I wouldn't let him design me a doghouse.

I agree with you: the fact that he wasn't technically a politician is a very minor and, in the face of everything else, insignificant mark in his favour.

Not to say he wouldn't be doing us all a great service in helping to bring down the cabal, but he'll get no parades from me.

access to it.

to look at it. That or those individuals could have gave it to Ari.

probably made the rounds on AF1.

It seems I yell at people alot on tv these days!

Most classified documents come with a need to know status. Just because one has a certain level of clearance does not give them the need to know certain information and anyone showing them that information could be liable.

In any case, Powell is the one that leapt to mind when I read the OP.

At some point, when Bush was asked if he ever made any mistakes in office, he said that he regretted some of his appointments. I've always felt he was referring to Powell at that point. I wonder if Bush said that after Powell had already started speaking out against him.

I wonder when the WH learned the identity of who spoke to the WP for that 9/28/03 article.

Only link I found so far was this one:

http://www.semperfidelisnoah.com/NoahsARKivesVaccineShortage.htm

Thanks, DLnyc

and you're welcome.

Another hint that it is Powell is that he never hired an attorney nor did he show up to testify with one. Also the comment he made about a month ago regarding his UN presentation preceeding the attack on Iraq. Remember he said something to the effect that it was the very lowest point in his life.

Wasn't it one of Powell's aides who said that was the lowest point in the aides life?

I have no doubt that that was one of the low points of Powell's life, too, but I thought it was an aide who said that.

I read so much that i get my facts mixed up sometimes. Thanks. :hi:

He was the "secret" source for Woodward's book a few years ago, after all.

Tammy

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...

Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created
equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

-Colin Powell, "My American Journey", page 148

another forum about 14 posts down..

"No. Fitz won't let that happen. He works too hard to let his indictments be pardoned away:

Triple posted now...

Ok... I double posted this... Copied from the Blog Post comments below this link:

Don't worry people. Have faith in Fitz, I have seen his work before... The guy is _nuts_ about putting heavies and assholes behind bars. He took down the Illinois Capitol in the sweetest domino play I have ever seen... It's like he is clairvoyant into the criminal mind. He plans, he plots, he eats, and sleeps, and dreams, and lives for nothing but justice and making bad guys squirm on their way towards a life of hard time behind bars. He likes to take down big bad guys and mean assholes; it makes Fitz feel good. He is smarter than they are, and he has the law on his side. Ask ex-Gov Ryan of Illinois on his job performance.

He played one round of dominos in Illinois, and took down the entire Ryan organization with no questions asked. As I recall, it took him about 20 months to find the weak links, make a case, and the whole chain went down in order. I don't see he missed a step in making an airtight, near perfect (as perfect as the law allows) case. He won't waste any more time than necessary. He wants perps out of society and into the legal system as defendants or prisoners.

If he thought for one moment he was wasting time, money, or effort on this case, he would have already dismissed the GJ.

He won't show his hand yet because he still has two big fish in the water. Cheney and Bush. He knows they are dirty, he is nobodys idiot. Nobody talks about his brilliance, his dedication, his blood hound ablities... The only people who really know how good he is... Are in prison, under indictment, or defending themselves in court (ex-Gov Ryan) and since they are not proud of how good and thorough his work is... Nobody really gives him due credit. His life's work is taking down bad guys, and the bad guys don't want to talk about it when he is done with them... "

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/firedoglake/112918518465716159/

Everybody loves Mom!!!

Can't wait to see pudgey karlies first letter home from da big house..

wonder where poppy o will hide his payoff money??

ha ha the 4 flushing bush criminals would rip off their own...

in other words whomever protects the bush criminals will be also back stabbed by same..its in their blue blooded treasonous veins

Mr "out of the loop" in Iran-Contra, my ass.

receiving an OCT surprise from Mr.DA

People
Opposing
Oil
Prices

*Sigh* Fitzgerald is one amazing man. I just am so psyched that justice is finally going to happen after everything that has happened to this country. I also agree that since I've seen that Fitzgerald is a true-blue attorney he would not waste his case on this and thus his reputation as well. He isn't going after Rove, Libby or Miller. I'm sure they will get something but he is going after something bigger as this article has proven. And I think too that Fitzgerald will go after anybody's blood he smells is involved with this case even if it's George Bush himself. And the thing about Fitzgerald is so many people on all sides of the political isle have praised him. Bush can't do a DeLay and claim "partisan hack".

Indictments of illegal idiots imminent...

I... I... I!!!


NGU.

Inimitable. I... I... I!!!

B-)

NGU.

However, Fitzgerald is still on the job. That fact leads me to believe that the investigation is going to fall far short of uncovering the criminality of the Bush administration as it relates to the Plame case.

hold on power to the operations of one grand jury process. If they thought there was a chance the Fitzgerald's investigation could bring them down, they would have removed him from his post in whatever way they deemed the most expedient. That's just my hunch. Like the rest of you, I have to conjecture in the absence of real information.

...that any mention of Miller's testimony is so quick to focus in on Libby.

I really believe that the right hand is up to something--while everyone is telling us to focus on the left hand.

I find these things very telling:

When Miller goes to jail she makes a comment about being scared and that "the government is too powerful. You don't understand." It's a strong possibility that she was frightened.

She and Libby concoct some ridiculous fabrication about her decision to finally testify. Notice how public the fabrication was. I believe it was a planted, false story--designed to throw off VERY high level officials. Libby and Miller made it appear as if Libby was green-lighting Miller's testimony against himself. Miller said she didn't realize Libby wanted her to testify (so she sat in jail for weeks, because of a misunderstanding between two VERY close friends? I don't think so.) They concocted a smokescreen, to protect both of them until the indictments come.

Also, look at Libby's poem to Miller about the "Aspens...turning in clusters because they're connected at the roots". He begged her to come back to life and work. Another DUer realized that recently a group of elite conservatives met in ASPEN, and all had collectively turned against Bush. They no longer supported him. Novak was present at the conference and wrote an article about Bush's friends turning against him. Libby was telling Miller that there was no need to withhold information against people that no longer were supported. It was safe now...come back to life and work--don't cover for people who are no longer being backed by the powerful conservative establishment.

I think there will be surprises. I think it will be bigger than Watergate--with allegations and crimes that will shock the nation.

I hadn't heard that about the Aspen people. That would make sense as to why Cheney is also backing away from Bush at all costs possible. So many people have been turning against Bush lately from William Kristol to people in the media. Earlier tonight on CNN they had a special about Iraq and they talked with military people and I didn't see the whole thing but what I did see it was either turning against Bush or questioning him. It was pretty surprising. Now it seems Condi has talked to Fitzgerald!

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/10/16/rice-cooperate/

amendment, not her personal safety. Here's the statement she actually made:

"If journalists cannot be trusted to guarantee confidentiality, then journalists cannot function and there cannot be a free press. Your honor, I believe that a free press depends now more than ever on people willing to express their views, particularly those in government. From my experience, and the experience of investigative journalists like me, I know that many of these people in government will not talk to reporters if we cannot be trusted to protect their identity. The risks are too great; the government is too powerful; the country is too polarized." http://www.rcfp.org/shields_and_subpoenas/miller_statement.html

CBS article here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/07/national/main707048.shtml with her statement to the court compressed to: "I won't testify. The risks are too great. The government is too powerful." Some posters here inferred and continue to infer that she was "scared" but this is not supported by her actual statement in context.

I was one that got sucked up into that spin.

Spinning to make it seem like she's into protecting whistleblowers, with the "government is too powerful" phrase.

One can't trust a single thing that this woman says.

about this Aspen poem thing. Can you direct me to some info about it?TIA

edit: I searched DU, but couldn't find it.

further edit: Okay, I found it.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001220134

cryptographic "the aspens are turning" (and turn in "clusters" because "their roots are connected") is that she should "come back to work--and life" to CONTINUE her work for them (the skulduggery and propaganda machines are still in place--well rooted), and specifically she now needs to work on Iranian nukes and biological threats (plots, people are in place to expand the war).

He (goes my interpretation) will be vacationing in jail, as she has been--i.e., is taking the fall for the Cheney and the Cartel. (He'll be "out west," in the wilderness, out of the loop, for a while.) But she can come out now; the deal's been made; all clear for more war and war looting.

Reading it the other way--as you have, TwoSparkles--that the "all clear" means that Cheney (a truly dangerous man) is the prosecutor's target, does have its points, I agree. (--and the brilliant discovery, whosever it was, of the fatcat Republican conference in Aspen, certainly gives this interpretation credence). I was more swayed by the Iranian nukes and biological threats items. Why would he be so specific in his predictions of what will be news stories that she might "come back to work" to cover (er...propagandize)? I was also swayed (toward the "a deal has been made" interpretation) by another theory, developed by me and others, that what was behind Treasongate was a scheme to PLANT weapons in Iraq, to be "found" by Judith Miller (in "the scoop" of her life), and that plot was foiled by the CIA (--something David Kelly found out about, and why he was suicided, four days after the Plame outing).

Thus, "the aspens" whose roots are connected (the people involved in that plot) are now "turning" those covert capabilities toward Iran and possibly toward controlling the American people as well--now that we have destroyed the "good CIA" and its 20-year WMD monitoring project.

In this interpretation, the Fitzgerald prosecutions are the aftermath which is now being dealt with in a way that protects the more serious game of lies, WMD manipulation and war profiteering. Libby is going to do time as part of that horrid game, to protect it; and she is now free to testify against him.

------------

I hope your interpretation is right, TwoSparkles. It occurs to me that the last part of Libby's letter to Miller is ridiculous, on its face. It's like something one might read in a cheap spy novel, or a Nancy Drew mystery ("The Secret of the Old Clock"). Maybe we are foolish to think that its meaning can be parsed, or that whatever meaning we come up with is the truth. (--this is a point toward Miller-Libby collusion in a targeting of Cheney; that Libby INTENDED the letter to be made public, and to be parsed as an "all clear" to his bosses, to make them think they are safe, and perhaps in an effort to protect both Miller's and Libby's lives).

That's something to consider--its absurdity.

I agree with you Peace Patriot...that Libby's "Aspen" letter is strange. We can speculate, but we really don't know. However, it's interesting to ponder these things, isn't it?

Some thoughts regarding Libby's words to Judith about returning to work and life...

I agree that Libby was incredibly specific. He mentioned stories about "Iran" and "biological threats". That was not accidental. Just as Judy propagandized for BushCo on the war with Iraq, I assume that those in power will have her selling their next move.

But wait, Judy's credibility is destroyed. How can Libby assume that she'll be writing anything--never mind top-level stories about "Iran" and "biological threats". My guess is that Libby understands that when the chips are counted--Judith will be vindicated. She will be a rising star. That can only happen if she brings down very senior officials and exposes corruption. Libby understands that her reporting and "truth telling" will be viewed as heroic and she will rise to the level of a "Deep Throat" who rooted out corruption at the highest levels by telling the truth.

With that said, everyone knows that the next PNAC/neocon move is Iran.
I get the feeling that Bush, Rove and possibly Cheney are expendable and detachable--in the eyes of the neocons. Their agenda is decades in the making. Bush/Rove were the electable face men, who would pose as average Americans--while the neocons inched their agenda forward. They succeeded with Iraq.

However, Junior has been highly problematic since re-election. His polls are tanking. He screwed up Katrina. He can barely put two sentences together anymore. He's a liability. The neocons know that Bush is an anchor around their neck--jeopardizing their political futures. If Dems gain House/Senate seats and ultimately the White House--their initial steps forward will be obliterated. They needed a way to sink him, before he sunk them.

They are ready to dump Junior. Bill Kristol, one of the PNAC founders, has been highly critical of BushCo recently. Other high-profile conservatives have been vocal. And of course, the Aspen conference a few weeks ago--which was attended by the nation's uber elite conservatives--was reported on, in Bob Novak's column. Novak was given permission, by conference attendees, to report the displeasure that these elites felt for Bush. The conference happenings were supposed to be "off the record" but Novak was given permission to carry the message to BushCo that his "friends" were very unhappy.

What does Bush do 2 weeks later? He nominates a friend--someone who is probably not a die-hard conservative--to the USSC. It's the hard-line conservatives who are most upset about this nomination. They understand that this nomination was to spite them. Bush won't be told what to do--by anyone.

I see Bush/Rove/possibly Cheney as expendable objects in the neocon game. The ASPENS that are TURNING--as Libby said in his poem to Miller--are those Aspen conference attendees who turned against Bush.

The bad news is....The neocon agenda will push forward, if these people have their way. Judy will propagandize Iran and biological threats. I assume she will emerge as a "Deep Throat" type heroine--when she helps to bring down the White House. Libby made it clear in his letter to Miller, that he didn't name Plame. Together, Libby and Miller will point the finger at someone else. I'll bet other officials (Powell, Tenet, Ari, etc) are singing from the same songbook. I would also guess that phone records, emails and AF1 reinforce what these witnesses said.

It's all very interesting to speculate. As you said--we don't know what the poem meant, and maybe it's silly to guess. Maybe it means nothing! However, it just feels like some of the puzzle pieces are being put together.

I guess we'll know soon enough, won't we?

Just to determine who told a reporter somebody's name, and if there was a law or two broken.

I don't mean to trivialize it but Watergate didn't take this long. I think maybe in the process of his investigation he has uncovered something much bigger.

:popcorn:

his crackdown in Illinois took 20 months. As a prosecutor, your job is to make the case air-tight, because you might not get a second chance to bring these people to justice. I would give him as much time as possible to do the best job he can, to make sure all the right people go to prison. Hopefully, he hurries up though, cuz I can't wait anymore :-)

to the beginning of revelations--and that was with a vigilant, investigative press. Fitzgerald is working in far more secretive and fascist conditions, with the entire press establishment (the "war profiteering corporate news monopolies," as I am fond of calling them--there is nothing "mainstream" about them, my friends; please STOP calling them the "mainstream media," MSM!) having thus far been no help at all, and in fact collusive with the Bush Cartel.

Bear in mind that this was a news media establishment that, acting in concert, late on election day, 2004, ALTERED their own exit polls (which showed that Kerry won) to FIT the "official result" coming Diebold's and ES&S's SECRET, PROPRIETARY vote tabulation (Bush won).

DOCTORED the data; fiddled the evidence; denied the American people major evidence of election fraud.

And never said a word about far rightwing Bushite corporations having gained control of the vote tabulation. Said barely a word about the massive, VISIBLE assault on black voting rights in Ohio. And immediately crowned Bush Jr. as king.

This is a far, far, far more deadly atmosphere than was current during Watergate. I think that's why it has taken so long (also, because new info keeps coming up). And I think that's why there are NO LEAKS from the prosecutor. He doesn't trust ANYBODY, and, after dealing with Miller and the NYT, least of all the war profiteering corporate news establishment.

the latest four and half hours of rove testifying is very damaging.i would love to read the jury`s notes and especially what they asked karl

A lot of people were saying that was very unusual.

someone other than Libby or Miller.

Guys like Rove usually get judged by other guys like Rove. Which is to say that the fox has a fun time in hen house and then other foxes give their opinion of it.

But a jury is made up of poultry. And this grand jury has been listening for two years. These feathered friends have put off their lives for two years.

No fox wants to face empowered fowl.

Karl had to go home afterwards to puke his guts out.

Especially when you consider the spooks are getting their revenge. :D

Whomever they are, hope they win.

I think this case will shock everyone in the whole country. I only found out about this case a few months ago (if that) and from that moment I had this strong sense that Fitzgerald wasn't going after Rove, Libby, Miller or anyone in their status. Rove didn't have that type of security. He's probably going to have something happen to him for sure for being involved, but he couldn't have been the one who leaked and was able to get the information. There are three big signs to me.

1) Just a day after the election Bush promoted Rove. From my watching and studying of Bush he only promotes those who are loyal to him and who does something for him. I don't believe Rove went on the trip to Niger but he was involved in phone calls and he is involved in the White House Iraq Group.

2) In recent weeks it appears to me that both Cheney and Gonzalez are backing away from Bush. Why else would they do this? When Bush first nominated Miers Cheney made the rounds on all the conservative radio shows and now supposivley he doesn't support her anymore. Why? Why the change? And at a recent press conference Bush did Cheney was there and he wasn't very close to Bush as they usually are.

3) Rumors of the "civil war" in the White House. Bush/Rove v Cheney/Libby. I think they are going to turn on each other. Miller is probably just worried about saving her own ass and her "career" as a "journalist". Rove has been so busy lately with the jury and Fitzgerald everything has been crappy with the Bush administration. Remember that Rove isn't called "Bush's brain" for anything.

"I don't believe Rove went on the trip to Niger but he was involved in phone calls and he is involved in the White House Iraq Group."

* * *

The trip where the memo was circulated around Air Force One was a tour of Africa, and did not involv Niger, as far as I know.

It was Joe Wilson's fact-finding trip that precipitated his New York Times that was to Niger.

I'm posting this to help avoid confusion in this very complicated case.

Rove--with Bush Jr. obviously hanging out there twisting in the wind of media scrutiny, all by himself, with no spin machine (doing absurd things like eating birthday cake, while a chunk of the country was getting blown off the map, and many Americans were dying). I figured Rove was on strike, negotiating his Treasongate pardon. (His absence was so notable, he later put out a story that he had been in the hospital with kidney stones during Katrina--a lie, I think.)

Cheney, too, may have been up to no good--I think maybe blackmailing Bush Jr. (he could certainly rat on his puppet, I imagine) to get Bush to try to strongarm Blanco into giving total control of the Katrina loot to the WH, using the poor dying blacks of NO as an extortion item (withholding aid). Why would Bush Jr. be doing this humiliating Cartel task? Where were his people, his aids, his underlings? Where was James Baker, and other Cartel water-carriers and fixers? The whole thing stank, big time.

And then we saw Daddy Bush and Clinton come out and stand behind him (behind Bush Jr.). Weird.

Something was going on, for sure. The WH seemed to be coming apart. Maybe a Cheney coup, I thought. But now I think it's that Fitzgerald and the GJ was shaking them up good, and the vipers were all in a tangle--the indictable vs. the unindicted co-conspirators, or whatever. The quiet now is somewhat worrisome. Have deals been made? Fall guys agreed upon? We'll see.

completely unnoticed and unreported.."

according to
http://www.aspenjournal.com/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=7554A9C8-65BF-7233-BB0180B0D266AFDE

“Rove Goes Off To Aspen While Administration Pushes Relief Effort.”


I suspect Robert NoFacts called Rove to enlighten him on the anti-Bu$h mood (as Novaks called it Bush bashing; and, that Karl decided to attend to either personally assess the goings-on, troubleshoot and/or fact-find.

Being in Aspen seemed a higher priority than Katrina.

Novaks wrote (tattled):

"U.S. News & World Report disclosed this week, with apparent disdain, that presidential adviser Karl Rove took time off from the Katrina relief effort to be at Aspen. He was needed as a counterweight. I settled in for serious fireworks, expecting Bush-bashers to assault his alter ego at the conference's final session. However, direct confrontation with a senior aide must have been more difficult than a remote attack on the president. It would be a shame if Rove returned to Washington without informing Bush how erstwhile friends have turned against him."

"how erstwhile friends have turned against him"

Some of people seen in Aspen during the 2005 Forstmann Little Aspen Weekend:

the Alan Greenspans (Andrea Mitchell)
Martha Stewart
Bob Novak, of course (who tattled)
Jonathan Alter
Charlie Rose
U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad
Monica Seles
Dr. Mehmet Oz
Annabelle Bond
Jackie Mason.
Gov. Bill Owens
Harvey Weinstein
Jimmy Choo
Tamara Mellon
Brian Williams
Paul Wolfowitz
Karl Rove
Phil and Nancy Anschutz
Jeff Bezos
George Lucas
Jeff Brotman
Steve Case
Denis Cortese
Michael Dell
Barry Diller
Michael Eisner
Charles Simonyi
Peter Ueberroth
Barbara Walters
Eric Schmidt
Arthur Blank
Dan Snyder
Roger Staubach
David Stern
Michael Ovitz
Norman Pearlstine
Leslie Moonves with wife Julie Chen
Andrew Lack

http://www.denverpost.com/husted/ci_3049552
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Aside the alleged Bush bashing, it doesn't set well with me that "the elite" appear to have extraordinary sway over matters of state.

```````````````````````````

According to Hoovers, Forstmann Little & Co. "counts among its former advisory board members Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Colin Powell, as well as George Shultz and Henry Kissinger."

http://www.hoovers.com/forstmann-little/--ID__42495--/free-co-factsheet.xhtml

there be any political fallout from doing such a thing or will Repubs love the idea cause no one on their team ever does wrong?

Wholesale pardons. They may escape jail but they would all have to step down from office. No way would the country stand for it.

If it goes all the way to the top, Bush can't pardon himself.

on that happening with the American neo-Nazi Party in control!

came on yelling about how Fitz is just a publicity hound. I LMAO, that was the moment I knew this case was going to be historic, and some top officials were going down. I mean, publicity hound? I don't even know what the guy looks like! He's more secretive than the * administration. They are to the point of saying anything to try to discredit him.
What I am hoping for is that when everything is brought out in the open we find out how much damage her outing has caused. We only know small details of her cover, I want the freepers to see just what their leaders did in outing this entire operation. Once that is revealed then even the neos will have to reconcile with the extent of this crime. You have to assume for the CIA to pursue this that some serious damage was done. Either way the suspense is killing me... I wonder if it will last :evilgrin:

Seriously? :eyes: So that is very telling.

Plame's network, and what may have happened to coverts because of it, and what evidence there may be of people getting killed and so on.

As I've seen it described, this was a 20 year CIA project, with Brewster/Jennings as the front company, and Plame's identity being an energy analyst. The purpose was to work with covert contacts abroad to keep tabs on the development and movement of WMDs--a non-proliferation project. For instance, I picked up that she was keeping a close watch on post-Soviet Russia and its nukes and other weapons, but she likely had contacts in yet more dangerous situations, where spying for the U.S. would likely bring dire punishment including death. The outing of B/J put anyone who had ever had any contact with her whatsoever in great peril, but--as I've seen described--we would not likely learn of their fates, because to contact them NOW, if they are still alive, would put them in further jeopardy.

But what if Plame or the CIA does know of some of the consequences? I just read today something I didn't know before--that Plame talked to Fitzgerald initially, at the beginning of his investigation. (It wasn't testimony, just talk. It was in a Wilson interview, I believe--maybe Democracy Now.) However, the redacted material came much later--and was pertinent to keeping Miller in jail (wasn't it?).

Still, Plame revelations could have been what alerted Fitzgerald to the overall seriousness of this treasonous act. (And I don't know what-all might have been in the CIA/Tenet's initial request for investigation.)

And it just occurred to me that David Kelly may have been a BJ covert contact. Maybe it was the Brits who were in charge to getting the WMDs planted in Iraq (to be "found" by Judith Miller)--re: the weapons planting theory (of what was behind Treasongate); Kelly found out, alerted BJ; BJ and the "white hat" CIA foiled that plot (prevented the Bushites/Blairites from completing their scheme to justify the war by a "find" of planted WMDs); and Kelly got killed by his own, for helping to foil the plot, or for knowing about it, and for spying on his own gov't.

There has not been a whisper of a connection of Plame with David Kelly (except for the curious connective tissue of Ms. Judith Miller, and the rather startling coincidence of Plame/Kelly dates--Kelly found dead, under highly suspicious circumstances, four days after Plame was outed). Nothing from Fitzgerald, of course. Nothing from Wilson or anybody else. But he IS dead, something he likely has in common with some of Plame/BJ's contacts. And it occurred in the exact same time frame.

One of the Islamic press news stories about the weapons planting did identify Basra as the off-loading point. But the other said ex-US military were involved, paid thru the Dept. of Agriculture, which a Def. Dept. debriefer (and whistleblower) got wind of. But maybe it was a two-country plot: say, the Brits got the weapons to the port (using Red Cross labeling, so the report maintains), then U.S./Bush Cartel black ops took over.

And then, after Kelly was dead, and they had searched his office and computers, four days later they outed the entire B/J project (in Novak's second outing, July 22).

What is Treasongate really all about? Outing a CIA agent and an entire network of covert contacts is serious enough, all by itself. Bush made this "terrorist" thing into a conventional war, by invading Iraq, so it is a hanging offense, especially if the dots between Novak's publication and the deaths of covert agents or contacts can be connected. Is that what Fitzgerald is pursuing? Or is that what inspired him to root out this nest of vipers in our gov't? What are the nat'l security issues that got redacted?

Only time will tell. Meanwhile...

Throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW! That's OUR job--the job of us ordinary citizens--and our duty to the future, as the inheritors of a once great democracy.

(classified of course) Fitzgerald would probably have seen something of: http://rubdmc.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/17/22429/1711

Plus, Kos piece on Brewster Jennings & Associates here: http://sparky-mcgruff.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/3/16838/88864

I agree, something big is going down. I may eat my words but what if the Veep and team have lost control of the chimp; he really does think he is our king. Add onto that the real possibility that the dumb fuck is out of control psycho, and he could become more dangerous. Nero?

He may have actually started scaring the shit out Cheney and crew and they want him gone.

Maybe he's been spouting off the "god told me" and "I'm the prez and I do what ever I want" bullshit to the guys that have ruled every republican government from behind the scenes since Nixon.

Could they be making him the fall guy for everything?

that someone has left the ship. And it wouldn't surprise me if there are people who are actively letting him hang.

I've been shocked at how poor Bush has been managed. Your theory could be the reason.

I think they could be letting him hang himself because of what happened with the little photo-op troop ordeal.

I does look like we've seen an unmanaged * for about the last four to six weeks. Either they aren't covering for him as much, or he's been getting so bad that it's all they can do to make him look this good.

Impeachment can't happen soon enough for me.

Cheney is the one with the deep connections into CEO-land. I'm sure the corporate bigwigs will side with him. If the corporations want Bush out, the networks will turn on him in an instant.

To some degree, the networks already have, such as the "discovery" of the Pentagon hack coaching the soldiers last week. Those things rarely come out by accident. Someone had to open up the feed.

But... there is also a downside. If the chimp goes down, then the GOP is toast for the next few election cycles. I'm sure if Cheney could save the Chimp's ass, he would do it just to save the party. Tossing the chimp has to be an action of last resort.

... looking at how this whole current system is arranged via the corporations, the media, and who's loyal to who within. A sobering look-see into the void of the concept that we used to understand: GOVERNMENT ...

A timely post.:applause: :applause:

is the media. Since we all know the truth about them.

I know that the small town I live in counts on the media (my town of 4000 in MN went for Kerry in 2004) for their information.

Why is this profound? Because the mainstream media that most are tuning into serves only one purpose --- and that's a canvas in which they can judge whther they're being told all of the truth, half the truth, or none of the truth.

I have written many 500+ word LTTE in the local paper (in fear, sort of) only to have folks from the age group of 50 to 80 tell my parents (60 somethings) "Tell your son to keep writing ... he obviously does his research and I don't see that on the nightly news".

MOST American people are hungry for the truth and they're disappointed with the nightly news.

When was the last time that happened in our country?

Okay ... back to the main topic of this thread --- sorry.

Keep writing LTTE's and keep posting on DU!
:hi: :toast: :hi:

I keep going back to the media's politically-irrelevant and infantile Clinton bashing over private family matters, and the fact that the public weren't buying into it, no matter how hard CNN et al tried to magnify it to... no, don't laugh... the level of treason... almost verging on terrorism! It was actually very humorous to witness their discomfiture, not to say disappointment, each evening, as Joe Public told them to get lost!

People are waking up. Last time? I remember it well.

going down on that Air Force 1. Powell knows about it all.

...was always that he would throw off his handlers eventually. We could be in for the end of the world if he decides to make his own decisions. To say nothing of a power struggle historic in proportion as people try to get his ear and favor.

Bush is terribly uninformed, tragically ignorant, doesn't watch the news, and doesn't read newspapers. He's a stone cold moran.

As I show here in my brand new, just off the press comic
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst

a questioning almost pleading tone. As if to add, "Do you see what I mean?"

As well as speaking in riddles, Blair used to use that kind of tone, in fact, kind of obsequious and wheedling, most particularly when he was trying to pull a fast one - or trying to justify something outrageous he'd already pulled. As when he lamented that single Mums clearly needed to be helped, so he'd decided to cut their benefits! I kid you not! But Bush's tone just sounds lame.

In fact, nobody normally speaks in such a continuously interrogative tone, though a lot of people tend raise their voice at the end of a sentence. Mostly, but not all women. Some high status characters too, I think, though that puzzles me.

Which is ironical, because Bush speaks in at least a normal male octave, while Blair used to speak in a high octave, to sound unthreatening. Bush doesn't sound androgenous, just not quite the ticket.

This is still a democracy with laws in place to handle a maniac president. It's just that a lot of our laws have been ignored. But * doesn't have the power to end the world without someone stopping him. He's not a king,and if people decide he's "out" he will be rendered harmless.

that is the scenario I think is playing out---Miers is a *symptom* of Bush* acting on his own and refusing to "play" along with what he is supposed to. Someone has to be the fall guy when policy has gone so far to one side that it endangers a long term philosophical program like this gang has been running since the 60s. Chimpo is out of control and the leaks about instability are coming out at last---he's the fall guy.

The collective faces of this group is a giant monster. The loss of an arm is to be expected and necessary, for they rule by fear, even their own. They must be ferreted out, exposed and destroyed. To do less is unpatriotic.

Miers = an independent decision by the Chimp. It would be a typical act of pride, to show everyone who's 'boss.' He may have some more of those little surprises before it's all over...

to the AIPAC Spy Ring.

to national security as a result of the Plame leak, networks and ops compromised and the consequences.

Judge Tatel made clear that it was the serious national security considerations and the evidence that Fitzgerald had presented that moved him to concur with the other judges that Miller and Cooper be forced to testify. (His written decision was the one that had the redacted pages.)

See Peace Patriot's fantastic analysis. He should really start a new thread with this topic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5039448#5039876

that the Brewster Jennings Operation that Valerie Plame was a part of was actually "on" to them in following the trafficking of these WMD's.

I've believed that the outing of Valerie Plame wasn't over Joe Wilson's editorial in the NYT. Sure, that story pissed them off, but I think there was more going on than just this. I think Joe Wilson knows this too....

:eyes:

That's something I don't understand in politics. Why do people never seem to have the balls to just go to the press and expose conspiracies? Especially when they have the press visibility that Wilson had (meaning he couldn't just be "suicided" w/o an outcry).

He has testified before the Grand Jury and will be available to testify under oath if called again before the judge and jury.

Meanwhile, to suggest that he have gone "public" with all he knows would have indeed made him open to being prosecuted under the Official Secrets Act and a few other laws...

He did the right thing - he spoke openly and honestly to the public both through his interviews and editorial and commentary on the "trip" to Niger and the fact that what the Bush Administration publicly stated about Yellowcake from Niger etc. were false, and then when his wife was outed by this administration via Novak etc. he spoke out about that. Since her cover was blown (as well as Brewster Jennings) he wasn't then guilty of violating a state secret by confirming his wife was a NOC for the CIA and he has at times stated that he knows that the truth will come out and that the story is much bigger.

We as a Nation seem to have become so conditioned to expecting all the facts on a case being "leaked" or witnesses speaking about details in advance of indictments and a trial, that its almost "odd" to have a situation where the prosecutor is keeping quiet and many of the witnesses too. But think about it....Fitzgerald and Wilson want justice. And loose lips sink ships and lose cases. If your playing poker, do you show your hand?

All I know is I can't wait to see the facts come out and the American public be sick to their stomach about the "Truth" of this administration...that they are guilty of treason against their own country and starting an illegal war that has robbed the American taxpayers and killed our soldiers....all in the name of oil profits...

No one will ever believe another word the Bush/Cheney Administration and anyone associated with it ever says again....

is Colin Powell. He's only been before the GJ once and, contrary to the other hordes of neocon officials, did not feel the need to retain a lawyer. This leads me to believe that a) he's been completely truthful in his testimony and b) he has evidence to back up everything he's testified about.

We can probably assume that Fitzgerald has most, if not all, of the pieces put together regarding this scandal.

a) He knew Rove mentioned Plame to Cooper.

b) He knew Scooter discussed Plame with Miller.

c) He knows the names of all the reporters Plame's identity was leaked to and he knows the administration officials to did the leaking to them.

d) He knew about Miller's "forgotten" notes (likely from one of Miller's coworkers at the Times).

e) He knows what classified information was discussed/disseminated on AF1.

He knows all this and lots more. Rove, Miller, etc. are only being hauled before the GJ to get these people ON RECORD UNDER OATH reagrding the facts of the case, and also to turn the whole Aspen lot of them against each other. I think Scooter's letter to Miller was a warning to keep her mouth shut -- that those loyal to the administration would toe the party line (and not give damaging testimony) while those who were disloyal were turning against one another. He was telling her to make a choice; be in the loyal group or the disloyal one.

I expect indictments of Rove, Scooter, and others. There will be perjury charges as well. I think there is also enough evidence, at this point, to indict Cheney as well. I think Fitzgerald may have been holding out to get some evidence to link Bush to the crimes, but it doesn't look as though there may be enough evidence to indict him.

However, I expect a new GJ to be empaneled after the indictments are handed out, because there is something besides the exposure of Valerie Plame that needs to be investigated. I also expect a report from Fitzgerald later on that will shed further light on the involvement of persons who may not have been indicted.

One that goes along with the "higher crimes here" theories of Peace Patriot and others:
That the "senior WH official" was someone like Cheney who decided that the "revenge on Wilson" story was a safer one than the "we tried to plant WMDs and wanted to destoy Plame to cover it up" story. They could pin all the focus on Libby and Rove (no honor among thieves or mafia, you know). They insisted that it was "revenge, pure and simple"---but was it??
They may have decided to throw the press a bone, and while they were fighting over it, sneak out the back way. That's why they (Condi) invited Wilson to publish his article.

Powell was odd man out from day one, and they hung him out to dry with that vial and the bogus claims they made him make to the UN and the world.

He's right to be righteously pissed.

-----
peep today's new comic
fresh at midnight
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst

Colin Powell and Mary Matalin....

I've long believed that both of them are talking to Fitzgerald and revealed much to him....

I might eventually forgive Powell if indeed it turns out he helps shed light on the truth. And I've long wondered about Mary Matalin and why after being so close to Cheney in his office she "quit"...I've imagined what the Carville/Matalin household and discussions were like. I've also long wondered about the Carville v. Novak issues (including the on camera "fight" that happened with Novak leaving the interview and kicking a trash can on live TV this summer).

My guess is that Carville told his wife that this ain't no game anymore and to look at their kids and think of them and the future of this country....Maybe she developed a conscience. :shrug:

As Sec. State he had access to intelligence analyzed by his own team. He doubted much of the administration's story claiming Iraqi CBR capacity. But he went ahead and gave the speech anyway. Being remorseful that words out ouf your own mouth led the county into an illegal war isn't heroic its guilty.

This isn't something new with Powell. The Mai Lai massacre of civilians in Viet Nam was one of the most disgraceful actions in US Military history. Guess who was then a Major and who developed the original military report that minimized the scope of the episode and limited the political/career ending damage to a Lieutenant?

1. Brewster Jennings: Destroying this intelligence asset makes this case far greater than outing one agent for petty revenge. Plus, the fact that they were already plotting the outing before Wilson's article was published suggests pretty strongly that the outing wasn't about Wilson. If they only wanted Wilson, their Swift Boat Slimers apparatus was still in fine fettle; they were after more than Wilson. Lots of speculation about BJ being onto something or someone: Could it be trafficking WMDs or materials to real terrorist nations or groups? Certainly Cheney and Halliburton are evil enough to do that. I'm positive that the CIA has cooperated with Fitzgerald as much as they're allowed to. Wouldn't surprise me if Tenet gave out instructions before he left, that Goss hasn't countermanded because no one told him about them.

2. Pardons: I don't think Dumbya will pardon anyone. Three reasons: They've all apparently started to turn to protect their own asses; they've been practically begging to testify again. Dumbya values loyalty (to him) above all else, so he won't pardon anyone he thinks turned, and he has to be suspicious of everyone now. Second reason: You don't fuck with the CIA. It wouldn't surprise me if he's gotten clear word (perhaps even from or via Poppy) that pardons won't be tolerated. Maybe someone even showed him a picture of JFK's eternal flame or the Dallas motorcade just to be sure the message was clear. Third reason: When we see what the charges are and how extensive the corruption is, elected Pukes will beg him not to pardon anyone because they'll know they'll go down too if he does.

3. Powell: Like many others, I suspect Powell is cooperating. Not just because he disapproved of the war and they made a fool of him. Also because (in spite of all he's gone along with) he still has a few shreds of integrity and self-respect left, and he wants to clean up his tarnished image and legacy. That's why he got out. Cooperating with Fitzgerald gives him a chance to salvage a bit of the luster he used to have and lost by servicing the gang of criminals. But there's one more thing: He's a career old-school soldier; he has to be horrified by the whole torture thing.

4. Ashcroft: I'm inclined to believe that Ashcroft left under somewhat similar conditions to Powell. There's something he either can't stand or was afraid of being caught up in. I don't have a clue if it's related to Plamegate or not. But his leaving seems awfully suspicious to me.

5. Fitzgerald: He's been chasing terrorists and official corruption for years. This case, especially with the destruction of Brewster Jennings, is the nexus of both. Those redacted pages say that he found a pretty big jackpot of terrorism, corruption, or both. And the national security angle in the judges' comments suggests terrorism. It's obviously about corruption. Hmmm, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if CIA elements put in a good strong word for the selection of Fitz for this job; that might even explain Ashcroft leaving--"if CIA wants to pick the prosecutor for this, I want out of here."

6. I think that even most of us on DU will be surprised at what Fitz has and who he charges with what. The nation and even the world will be shocked and stunned because the media have led them to believe this is a petty case of political revenge. I expect many indictments of many indictees, well beyond Rove and Libby. I would not be surprised at Cheney and would not even be surprised at at least one count of treason against someone, although I'm not expecting that. I'd be willing to bet that there will be at least one charge none of us have even talked about. To say that this will be bigger than Watergate is a big understatement, I think.

Could there be some indictments related to WHIG or the shadow government, as well as the Plame outing? The lies about WMD to promote the invasion of Iraq? Do you remember that Rumsfield, Cheney, Wolfowitz and other neo-cons wrote a letter to Clinton while he was still in office trying to promote the idea of invading Iraq?

I agree that the case goes deeper than Rovian political revenge because of the involvement of Libby and WHIG and unnecessary leaking of Plame and Brewster Jennings when they could have simply discredited Wilson by spreading talking points about him being a partisan anti-war Democratic hack.

Media pundits have downplayed the implications of the Air Force One memo that clearly showed Plame's secret status and revealed that the State Department had reached the same conclusion as Wilson about Saddam and Niger even before Wilson's trip but Cheney had wanted the CIA to check out the Niger connection anyway (perhaps hoping CIA would send someone who would bolster the Saddam/Niger connection).

CIA involvement does make pardons less likely especially if Fitzgerald can pin at least one charge of treason.

Powell still seems to be supportive of Bush despite Powell's claims that Saddam had no WMD's and was not posing a nuclear threat so I would not be surprised if his testimony implicated Cheney and WHIG in a conspiracy but insulated Bush from direct blame.

Ashcroft probably resigned to avoid entanglement.

Die hard right wing pundits (including Christopher Hutchins) were still saying over the weekend that Rove and Libby heard about Plame's identity from a journalist, her identity was public knowledge, she was not a covert operative and that Wilson was wrong about Saddam and Niger so White House was justified in discrediting Wilson.

I find it hard to believe that Fitzgerald would go so far out on a limb for two years even putting Miller in jail if the right wing spin had merit. I think he will make as strong a case as he possibly can to ensure that indictments have merit and cannot be easily dismissed.

They really are delusional. If they think that, I think we can assume that they don't have a clue about reality. They may think they create their own reality, but they don't create a prosecutor's reality.

out right after Wilson's op ed and said "oops, that Niger thing shouldn't have been included in the state of the union because it was dubious" because Wilson (and the US Ambassador to Niger and a general who also investigated the claim) was wrong?

Hitch should just crawl inside a bottle once and for all and stay out of the public discourse.

Her name isn't mentioned as often as others in discussion of indictments.

know) she hasn't got much attention, what with all the "mushroom clouds" and aluminum tubes. But it was Condi's then deputy Hadley (now natl security advisor) who initially took the "blame" for letting the Niger crap get into the state of the union speech until they shifted the blame to, ironically, the CIA that had been trying to prevent the Administration from using the Niger claim throughout the Fall of 2002.

Condi and Hadley of course were "WHIGs" and Hadley was the recipient of Rove's CYA email re: Cooper which Rove belatedly "discovered" and turned over to Fitz in 2004. Hadley's previous ties to Cheney when Cheney was at DOD apparently helped him get the job as Condi's deputy. Such a small world....

It will be interesting to see where Hadley appears in the indictments/co-conspirator lists. If he does. I'm hoping Condi gets caught up, too, so we can stop hearing this Condi for president crap.

The only thing(s) I would add is that people should remember there are MANY other people who testified to the GJ, like Powell (who others have mentioned), Mary Matalin (married to Carville and directly involved in WHIG, could be a very good source of incriminating info), Cooper (again, good source), Novak (who is a cowardly, unscrupulous worm and would do anything to save his hide). Miller's testimony was not crucial, it was icing. I think Fitz got most of the meat of his case from OTHERS we are not aware of. Miller just put exclamation points on it, and/or sealed some people's dooms (perhaps even her own as well, she's not immune to charges) by highlighting conflicting testimonies and cementing a time line etc.

Fitz knows what he's doing. He expertly manipulated the scumbags involved to only know what he wanted them to know so they would turn on eachother like rabid dogs and I'm willing to bet they did just that.

I think Fitz got most of the meat of his case from OTHERS we are not aware of.

Yep, I've been thinking that too. The investigation has been going on for quite awhile now and we've only heard about a few days of testimony from a few people. What was happening during the rest of that time? Undoubtedly it includes finding out about Brewster Jennings and the damage to national security. It may well be that all the recent activity about Rove, Libby et al isn't the primary case (as Fitz is happy to let them believe it is) but is to establish obstruction of justice related to the primary case regarding BJ and whatever they found out. Obstruction would just bolster the primary case. Rove and Libby are dessert (shall we say just desserts?).

Were not judges known for liberal decisions. When I saw Sentelle's name, my teeth almost fell out.

And it's absolutely true that the people on the outside haven't a clue what the jury is hearing and reading.

Well, I don't have knowledge of the judges involved except what I've read concerning this case, but that seems to be the consensus view.

I feel sure that the main part of the case is what we haven't yet heard about.

after all these criminals are put behind bars where they belong.

:kick:

:kick:

Two Years Ago.

outrages. Thanks for the reminder, mhr.

That's not like Macho Bush to seek anyone outside his circle of influence. He must be really terrified!

9/11

From where I sit, THAT CRIME is the BIGGEST crime that has occurred since the Bush Administration took office, after that the lies that took us to war, after that torturing prisoners, and after that outing the CIA agent. (I'm sure I have missed listing something)

What would make Republicans turn against their own? It's my hunch that the 911 truth movement and the Internet has reached many Republicans. I contend that's why they are "turning in clusters".

If this leads to the the unraveling of the "so called official 911 story" then my time sitting here at this computer following this saga for over the last 15 months will have been justified. I want to get back to my real hobbies and I want the truth of 911 to come out. The rest will take care of it's self, the indictments, the charges. We need to completely clean house of corrupted politicians and political appointees starting with the Federal Reserve Bank.

So to sum up, if 911 doesn't get addressed by Fitzgerald and the grand jury, I will be a little disappointed.
Bama

are very important. However, it is not anything that is connected to the Plame case in such a way that it could possibly be addressed by Fitzgerald's investigation. He can only investigate crimes that are related to the exposing of Valerie Plame.

I would think that as a US Attorney, if violation of federal law was revealed, that it would be his duty to prosecute that.

Correct me if I'm wrong please.

--IMM

I have read here and there that the 9/11 investigation may be, indeed, tied to "Plamegate." The likely reason is that Elliot Spitzer, New York State Attorney General, was given that job originally but he wanted to run for Governor. His investigation would have been cut short and he wouldn't be able to prosecute those responsible in the time he had. Let's hope this is the October surprise we are all wishing for.

"Out West, where you vacation, the aspens will already be turning. They turn in clusters, because their roots connect them. Come back to work---and life".

<Wikipedia>

Libby was a founding member of the PNAC. He joined Paul Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Robert Kagan, and others in writing its 2000 report entitled, "Rebuilding America's Defenses - Strategy, Forces, and Resources for a New Century."

Libby started his government career in the State Department in 1981 under President Ronald Reagan. He has also, at various times in his long career, held positions with the American Bar Association, the RAND Corporation, the Department of Defense, and the United States House of Representatives (as a Legal Advisor).

Libby co-authored the draft of the 'Defense Planning Guidance' with Wolfowitz for then-Defense Secretary Dick Cheney in 1992.

Libby graduated from Yale University in 1972, where one of his professors was Paul Wolfowitz.

</Wikipedia>

Clearly his letter to Miller was code.

It's Cheney and the old school VS Rove/Bush loyalist me thinks. "turning in clusters - because their roots connect them". It must mean the roots (PNAC, RAND, DOD) are turning against bush.

I still think even though the PNAC boys are trying to cover their asses and pin things on Dumbya, they are shitting themselves because the know Fitz has some serious shit on them too.

The evidence of internal war is easily seen with Miers, canned video op with the flack, lack of good advise during Katrina etc. He is too fucking stupid and arrogant to make the right decisions on his own, and the fact that he did photo ops and fund raisers during a national disaster tells me that he was set up in that regard.

Please.... Chimp doesn't connect or read, much less watch headline news to see that a cat 5 hurricane was about to fuck shit up. He must have been misdirected.

Does anyone have a list of everyone that has testified in this case?

Thanks!

Grand jury proceedings are pretty secretive, and most people are forbidden by law to talk about them. Unlike the Starr Chamber, Fitzgerald's office takes that law seriously and doesn't leak. Witnesses are allowed to talk about what they testified, but most others are not. So basically we know who testified that wants us to know that they testified. But I suspect the meat of this case is from people who don't yet want us to know, and that Fitzgerald doesn't yet want the publicly identified characters to know. If Rove, Libby, Cheney et al knew who else had testified, the brown stains on their trousers would probably be a bit bigger.

that this bunch of mobsters were finally going to get their due. I'm not going to hold my breath on this one though, I've seen these Slugs wiggle their way out of so many blatantly wrong situations and leave nothing but their slime trail behind. I'm not getting my hopes up yet, I couldn't take the disappointment if they were able to slime their way out of things one more time.
IF there are indictments, IF they go to trial, IF they are convicted, IF they are frog-marched off to prison....THEN I'll be happy, THEN I'll believe there is still justice in this country. Not until.
I hate to be so pessimistic but I've had my hopes dashed against the rocks too many times to think otherwise.

A lot of those guys are red-faced angry with this Administration. "Outing" one of their own was just one of a string of outrages. I'll bet they've been sending lots of juicy morsels to Fitzgerald.

nt

there are too many RW nuts out there... I think he'd better watch his back.