Etiquette: a worthy art or an elitist filtering device?

I am currently reading Letitcia Baldridge's 'New Manners for New Times: A Complete Guide to Etiquette'.

Like all etiqutte books (and I used to pour over the 1920 edition of Emily Post back when I was a preteen, when I indulged in delusions of joining the Kennedy dynasty), this one takes the stand that etiquette (defined by Letitcia as 'the rules') - and good manners (personal social grace) - is a framework for making life easier through automatic navigation of social situations.

Leticia writes in her introduction:

'When we graduate from the self-obsessed "I-I-Me-Me" school of philosophy into a life of caring about other people, we begin to react automatically to those other people, whether they are close friends or not. We react in a uniform, decent, and considerate manner. It's not something we stop to think about. We just do it.'

I was thinking about 'etiquette' and our ideas about civilization.

Do you as progressives/liberals/freethinkers/iconoclasts/etc follow 'ettiqutte', or do you ignore it as an unecessary, elitist tool and instead act only in light of your common sense and conscience?

Which is better?

Who knows how to order, eat, and pay at five-star restaurant in Paris, for instance? How many of us would get by passably? How many of us would have no desire to go there at all?

I have also observed that many people we Americans would consider 'rich' or 'the upper class' actually have no class at all (see Paris Hilton, etc.).

But perhaps some of you would rather, if invited to a state dinner, display your lack of concern with traditional 'etiquette' to show up the elite for what they usually are: oligarchs. Perhaps you may relish the idea of providing a direct opposite to all their values.

Also, do you teach your child 'proper manners' or only the basics (e.g. 'don't burp in public, Susie')? Do you make them practice posture, address others as 'sir and 'ma'am' (excluding Southerners, who ALL do that haha), and teach them which of the four forks to use at a table setting? Send them to a finishing school? Do you think these are indispensible lessons for your child or just the desperate pretentions of the nouveau riche (or worse, the SUV-driving, pageant-going suburbanites)?

These are both, to me, appealing arguments, but, personally, I come down on the side of 'etiqutte', not as a tool to lord it over others, to demonstrate my icy superiority (as much as I would like to be more like Grace Kelley haha), but to use as a defense against those elitists who would like to be able to discount me on such grounds. I think I should know how to behave, without worry or confusion or a moment's pause, at a state dinner. Just in case. I want them to know that, though I may not be rich or elite (nor do I want to be), I can still sit up straight at a table and eat delicately with my dessert spoon.

...

;)

Thank you.

IMO
etiquette, (commonly known as 'good manners)
is one of the handful of things
that make for a civilized society
(thus the term being 'civil')

to say that the use of good manners
is 'elitist' is really no better
than saying that those who apply knowledge and critical thought
into forming questions and responses to concrete or
philosophical questions are 'elitist'
and this has been one of the very things proposed
by those who would support Harriet Miers
to those who would call into question her qualifications

I believe that it is our duty
to instruct our children in the art of good etiquette
it is for their own well-being in the future, after all
and for the benefit of all society

and proper etiquette and being a snob. The two are not the same thing. Good manners are always in style and they do not require a person to be a snob. Being a snob has nothing to do with good manners.

against "not our kind, dear"..
Is DEPLORABLY bad manners, and denotes a badly brought up person.

(according to gramma, anyway)

who said snob?

I broke up with a guy who ate like a pig.
I also have a friend that I will not go to a restaurant with because she eats like a horse.
If you are sitting at my table and eating like a prisoner having his last meal--I will comment on it.
Of course some of it is elitest...but knowing which fork or which glass to use isn't that difficult to learn.
Obviously we don't utilize perfect etiquette in our house routinely, but both of my kids would be comfortable at a State dinner and know which utensils to use.

If you are sitting at my table and eating like a prisoner having his last meal--I will comment on it.


i don't think miss manners would sign off on that, no soup for you, dude!

And as I said...we don't always practice perfect etiquette in my house...but it turns my stomach when people shovel their food, scrape the fork on the plate and chew with their mouth open.
:shudder:

A woman once remarked to Miss Manners that she would be scared to eat at Miss Manners's house for fear of doing the wrong thing at dinner. Miss Manners actually replied to the effect that it is poor manners to point out another's etiquette lapses, so Miss Manners's house is ironically the safest place to have bad manners (provided, I suupose, that you are not terribly interested in being invited back).

When you have someone eating like a prisoner eating his last meal(shoveling food, scraping plates, chewing with their mouth open, elbowing everyone else, etc.), and everyone else is getting sick and uncomfortable with their eating habits...as a host, do you allow all of your guests to be uncomfortable to spare the one person?
Or do you tactfully say something to remind a person of their manners?

to make his guest feel comfortable?

Etiquette includes making others feel comfortable, particularly your guests!

I'll pick etiquette.

He eats as if he could be at a trough- head down, mouth open, and FAST. Talks while chewing.

Do you know that * insists all courses be served at once and gets to dessert as others are finishing theis salads?

These are factual anecdotes.

Piggishness in everything they do. Greed and gluttony.

Cheney eats like a pig and talks while chewing...who woulda thunk it?

Shrubby is so selfish he doesn't wait for his guests to begin dessert? That doesn't make sense -- he is such a considerate person.

that they needed to learn manners in case they ever got invited to the White House for dinner. Now, they tease me about it, since their manners are far better than the current occupants of said house.

The rule that makes sense to me is:
Treat your company like family and treat your family like company.

It's about respect and caring for each other.

On the other hand, especially for women, etiquette has been used to keep us in our place. My computer screen has the great 50s-style image of a well-coiffed lady and her young daughter in white gloves, with the title, "Well behaved women rarely make history."

I don't consider them elitist tools, either.
Your comment:
I have also observed that many people we Americans would consider 'rich' or 'the upper class' actually have no class at all (see Paris Hilton, etc.). This reminds me of a thread earlier today about Babs Bush calling out Queen Noor nastily. Now there's the perfect example of someone born with a silver spoon in her big fat mouth who still doesn't exhibit anything close to proper etiquette.

proper etiquette and good manners is an "elitist tool." Some of the rudest, most ill mannered people in the world come from elitist backgrounds.

With holding grease from society's gears or intentionally throwing sand in them is the mark of block headed ignorance.

they are fascinating as a sociological snapshot of the time.
Amy Vanderbilt's 1952 book reflects social change with regard to women. It is a fun one to read, especially if you are confused about problems with the help.

Personally I try to use manners and am impressed with others who do. It is usually a way to show consideration of others. But etiquette seems to be falling by the wayside. Someone actually laughed at me when I said "Yes, please."

In fact if I get some time in my life I may go to the International Butler Academy.

http://www.butlerschool.com/index2.htm

if you have good manners you can get away with a lot more than others. The rich also use them to separate us from them...which is why Martha was so unpopular, she told the riff raff how to look/act/live like the elite. She is considered, by the elite, to be the ultimate traitor, giving away the secrets.

I knew some students from "old money" families when I was grad school. Invariably, they dressed in what looked like Goodwill rejects and thought ostentation and fussiness were tacky.

They may be weird and psychologically warped, but they don't show off their wealth in public and despise those who do.

But I don't think of Martha as ostentatious, I think of her more as showing how some of the rich do live, and how you can do it to! You can build a gingerbread house with "glass" windows, and use napkin rings, and have centerpieces and classy Christmas decorations! You don't have to have decor that makes you look like a hick. Move that TV out of the living room, put some pretty pillows on the sofa, fresh flowers on the table, use cloth napkins and a table cloth. Those things the rich still do. At least the old money I know. Yes, the table cloth may be darned, but its on the table every dinner.

The 'real' rich and the 'real' upper class do not make a show of gaudy consumerism AT ALL. No need.

adults, ask questions, be polite. My parents used to get the "your children are so polite and well behaved" comments. After awhile, we never even thought about it. My wife and I are trying to do the same things with our children. Our three year old now thinks that by saying "excuse me", that she can interrupt any conversation and we have to listen to her. We are working on that one!!

One should not swear in public. (big pet peeve of mine). One should not try to cause offense unless warrented.

I came from a pretty humble background but my mother beat courtesy into us. It helps to be nice. It helps to say sir and ma'am.

Good manners never will go out of style.

on what one's opinion of etiquette and good manners is. Teaching children is an ongoing process and I honestly believe that while adults may know "the basics", we also have room to learn depending on the situation. For me, manners consists of being welcoming and making people feel very comfortable, which means overlooking someone not knowing which utensil to use, or not knowing what a finger bowl is used for is ignored.

I have 3 boys and their teachers throughout the years have told me that they are polite and well mannered, even if they are "slackers" at home sometimes, but they know that everyday dinner with the family is more laid back than when we have their birthday dinners, or guests for dinner.

Then again, perhaps I'm missing the point of what makes one an "elitist".

"making people feel comfortable" If you are welcoming and of a generous spirit, you are well mannered.

dinner? Would you prefer the table "set" with the better stemware or will the everyday wine glasses and dishes with candles be more to your liking? BTW, my kids know that when they see the "good glasses" on the table they are expected to behave a little better.:-)

lets just toss some finger-food into a basket and spread out in the backyard..
(I like picnics)

you don't have to be ugly to get your point across, and if you feel you need to, you'll probably benefit from stepping back and reconsidering it. after all, you can always be ugly later and beat someone down if they truly deserve it

Weather it is for your own, or another culture. Weather it be generational or ethnic. My experience is that if you try to do the best you can by respectfully attempting to communicate with other cultures, that attempt will be appreciated and reciprocated.

"Do you as progressives/liberals/freethinkers/iconoclasts/etc follow 'ettiqutte', or do you ...act only in light of your common sense and conscience?"

I think it's important to be kind, thoughtful, and polite. However, I think that it's contrary to the purpose of manners to hold oneself above others. For instance, I can eat in a fancy restaurant, but I don't care if someone else uses a shrimp fork instead of a salad fork. I think people should make a good faith effort, but the effort counts more than the result I think.

I dislike that "manners" are used to stifle conversation or degrade people. I'm reminded of the old ladies clutching their pearls in cartoons. "Well, I never!"

Manners are supposed to be about welcoming and comforting others. They shouldn't be a weapon.

"protocol" for various social functions/settings (How to address people, dress,entering to dine, receiving lines, etc)

"place settings" - various place settings for multiple course meals, the "boy-girl","rank" arrangement around a table and name plates. (etc)

Posture wasn't just a meal time thing. Proper posture was an all day long thing. Walking, sitting - throughout the day. (I even had to walk with books on my head - no joke) As an side, my back feels better if I don't slouch or hunch..I also don't cross my legs, I cross my feet.

I sir and ma'am and have all my life..with no plans to change that

Manners demand you ignore the mishaps - drawing attention just serves to make others feel uncomfortable. If you're making people feel uncomfortable, then you're being exclusive- and that ain't classy. :)

>Do you as progressives/liberals/freethinkers/iconoclasts/etc follow 'ettiqutte', or do you ignore it as an unecessary, elitist tool and instead act only in light of your common sense and conscience?<

I am no Emily Post, but I think that basic knowledge of etiquette is necessary for anyone in the business world. It's definitely useful for anyone that ever wants to hold political office as well.

>but to use as a defense against those elitists who would like to be able to discount me on such grounds.<

Absolutely. DH and I both grew up in blue collar homes. We find ourselves in much different circumstances now, and use the tools to conduct ourselves properly no matter the occasion. People are shocked when anyone is polite to them, knows how to correctly execute an introduction, call those we have just met "Sir" or "Ma'am" until told what address is preferred, and generally can get through a restaurant meal, cocktail party, or corporate function without causing a scene.

"Elitists" have the advantage of having these rules drummed into them from birth. They might seem stupid or archaic, but them's the rules. Speaking of Paris Hilton, I just read in the "Vanity Fair" article about her last month that photographers and press clamored to cover her and her sister because of their impeccable manners and friendliness. Go figure.

Julie

"Don't take a poop on the dinner table". (Much less throw up on the Prime Minister of Japan, there, Poppy)

#1, I think, is asinine and absurd. #2 makes sense.

Look, I live on the West Coast. Frankly, I don't feel like wearing anything more fancy than shorts and a t-shirt most of the time. Fortunately, around here people don't feel the need to get real dressed up when they go out to eat. That's changed from when I was younger, and it's different from, for example, parts of the East Coast (I know East Coasters who get driven batty by how casual -or slovenly- everyone out here is.)

Would I be able to "pass" at a five star restaurant in Paris? Probably. The crucial question is, however, would I really WANT to spend an entire evening with people who have sticks far enough up their ass that they're going to pay attention to how someone holds their spoon. Mmmmm, probably not.

Lastly, I think it's important for kids to learn respect of their elders, but "respect" to me doesn't necessarily mean calling people "sir" or "ma'am". When I was a kid, we got BS like "Children should be seen and not heard". What a terrible message to send to kids.

>would I really WANT to spend an entire evening with people who have sticks far enough up their ass that they're going to pay attention to how someone holds their spoon. Mmmmm, probably not.<

We live on the West Coast, too. There are many restaurants in the Puget Sound area that had to rethink their dress codes because of Microsoft. It seems that a lot of Microsoft VP's were not being served because they were too casually dressed for the restaurant in question. There are only a few restaurants here now that insist on coat and tie for men and appropriate dress for women.

My husband has worked for several employers since we got married. Let's just say that when the multimillionaire CEO of one's company wants to go golfing, wants you and your spouse to accompany him to dinner at an upscale restaurant, or wants you to meet clients for drinks, you don't say "no," and everyone is on their best behavior. Interestingly enough, we've met a few that had the proverbial stick-up-the-butt disease, but we've also met those who are interesting to talk with, offer invaluable experience and advice, and end up becoming acquaintances.

Professional advancement is often tied to social behavior. Of course, this is IMHO, but we've seen it repeatedly at companies we've both worked at.

Julie

in 'high class' settings, as it were.

I mean, I can do black ties and tuxes when I need to- but I'm still more comfortable in shorts and a t-shirt. And the whole thing about toning down the dress codes couldn't have come to soon for me. When I want to eat a fine meal, I want to eat a fine meal - the quality is not diminshed if the person at the table next to me isn't wearing a sport coat.

Beyond that point, it's an elitist filtering device. Using common sense, basic manners (so not to disgust and offend others), and making others feel comfortable is simply being civilized. Beyond that, it's very elitist. How many people can afford finishing school? How many have or ever will order, in French, five courses, with the appropriate wine? How many people can afford 3k for a handbag that is "seasonally" correct?

If you are not name dropping (including your recent worldwide travels and with whom you went and whose vacation home you stayed at), wearing the "right" and very expensive clothes, esp shoes and handbag, using a very white elitist language, etc. you WILL be "classed." You will be labeled based on your SES. And then you will be tagged "old money vs. new money." Much of it is elitist BS, IMO.

BTW, did you spend your summer in the Hamptons? ;)

It's just a matter of 'do you wish to appear to be a pleasant person to be around, or don't you?'

Paris Hilton may be rich, but that doesn't denote class.

And good posture is just good.

the etiquette that i learned growing up in the northeast is much different than the etiquette that my husband learned growing up in the southeast, which is different from the etiquette of the middle east. which is right?

seems like this book espouses the etiquette of upper class america...

that's what my kids are taught.

There is also an element of social mobility that I think is important, as I like my kids to have maximized opportunities for whateverthey choose to do in life.

I was raised to eat supper with a "good chew", having rousing conversation throughout, and a proper thanks to the chef included a healthy belch when chairs were finally pushed back!

Never have figured why it may be a sign of disrespect to others if somebody actually chews with their mouth open! My offspring were taught proper mastication so they wouldn't be constipated, not to pick apart others' social habits. Plus the magic words "Please" and "Thank You" which go a long way in common courtesy and standard respect for fellow humans!

1. Don't be disgusting.

2. Don't insist on your own way all the time.

3. Don't deliberately hurt anyone's feelings.

Let's face it. Every subculture has its unspoken rules. You need to be knowledgeable and flexible enough to function in different environments and at different levels of formality.

They're very important.

With an akido master, all your assaults are blocked, or have their
energy turned against the attacker. With ettiquette, crude assaults
are blocked and the energy of that turned away.

It suggests maturity, ettiquette, as it is natural for any sensitive
person that people have feelings. But really, its all just a game of
social abstract to show elitism, especially the social rules like the
forks. Harder still, using ettiquette in talking with someone who
does not speak good english, making mistakes with word-choice, and
anyone can spot an ettiquette asshole when they attack a person for
misspeaking, who is making a damn good try at it... or undermining
a person who does not have the table-eating trainging of those who've
had better finishing school.

There's nothing wrong with being nice and saying "thank you" and "please," but when there's actual debate about whether to eat with your elbows on the table or the right kind of wine to go with the right kind of food, that's when I start flinging my appetizer at the hosts....life's too damn short to worry about that shit.

One night my mother, who believed herself to be descended from royalty, (on the wrong side of the sheets,) took me to a small high society do. It was another of her attempts to forge social connections and take her place in the society she was sure she belonged in. Supper was supposed to be included in the evening, but, although food had arrived, the caterers hadn't, so it was being left in a locked room. A couple there became distressed, and explained to me they were diabetic, so I spoke to the organizers and got the keys, and smilingly co-opted the best dressed people I could see to help me serve supper.

My mother was horrified that people might see me acting like a servant and find out I was her daughter, but when she saw who was helping me she got over that. I'm shy, but passing food around gave me a chance to get to know people. Whenever I started talking to anyone, my mother would push me out of the way, doing her bum and chest out, head back imitation of an adoring chook, and flap her elbows demanding an introduction. People would raise their eyebrows when I introduced her, but everybody ignored her idiosyncratic manner and spoke to her kindly.

Later in the evening I noticed a shabbily dressed old woman sitting alone on beanbags in a quiet corner, looking for all the world like Cinderella's fairy godmother. She seemed happy to have company, and told me the most fascinating stories about her youth. And I realized that I was talking to the most wealthy, well connected woman at the soiree. She had the confidence to wear her once beautiful designer clothes even though they were old, because she had no need to spend money just to impress people.

My mother walked past me and flicked her head at me to indicate it was time to leave, but, knowing this was the woman who could help her in her social ambitions, I introduced her to my new acquaintance as my mother, telling her that Mrs. H had 8 grandchildren, so that mum had something to talk about. But Mother Dear just flicked her head harder than before, and uttered with a contemptuous sneer: "well I have 16 grandchildren, and started stalking out.

Mrs H gently took my hand and said, "I'm sorry, dear, but don't worry. No-one would ever guess."

And on the way home I had to make peace with a an obviously upset Aboriginal who started threatening us after mum began smugly lecturing him.

My mother was well versed in etiquette, but she didn't have a clue about common courtesy.