Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Does anyone know anything about an ancient Mayan/Japanese connection?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:30 AM
Original message
Does anyone know anything about an ancient Mayan/Japanese connection?
This is random, I know, but the Yucatan hurricane reminded me of a story told by a guide at Chichen Itza. The young man was Mayan, and, I would guess, an activist for his people. He expressed bitterness about Mayan artifacts having been taken to Harvard, where they, I assume, remain.

He told a story about an elderly Japanese visitor to Chichen Itza who was observed talking to an elderly worker there, in language they could both understand. He believed that his ancestors had come from Japan, and seemed proud of that fact.

I've done some Googling on this, and found nothing. I know there are people at DU knowledgeable about many different fields, and I wondered if there were people with knowledge of the Mayas -- their history and present-day plight, and the possibility of this Chichen Itza story being true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. I have heard a theory that some Asians sailed across the ocean
and started colonies (or maybe not colony, started life over) in central America and Mexico and etc.

But I've heard it as Chinese and other south eastern Asians. With the Japanese there wouldn't be a link, since there really weren't any Japanese until about a thousand years ago. THough there were the Ainu on the island of what is now Japan, so perhaps a link is with them (though the Ainu also, likely, were immigrants from mainland Asia: Korea and CHina etc.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Look at this! I Googled and found info on Yucatec Mayan and Ainu...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. An interesting paper, but it is linguistic science, makes no cultural link
It was an interesting paper. However, in scanning it, it seems to be entirely about mechanisms of lingusitic scientific analysis. The paper draws no cultural or ethnic connection between the two cultures. On the other hand, it doesn't rule one out either, and there might be some interesting research to be done along those lines.

Note that Ainu is not Japanese. Also, the Ainu have faced severe discrimination in Japan and are almost extinct as a separate culture or ethnic group.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Thanks for this important info, Bernardo, and all the other info...
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 05:47 PM by DeepModem Mom
you've contributed to this thread.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. Bernardo is right
The paper is about the linguistic phenomenon of vowel harmony, which Mayan and Ainu apparently share.

The author makes no claim that Mayan and Ainu are related, only that they share a certain phonological feature, which probably arose in both languages independently.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Just for fun, I suppose you could argue that if the Ainu
came from the "north" -- presumably across a land bridge that is now the Karil Islands -- and ancient inhabitants of the Americas came across Beringia, that both groups came from the same place . . .

Then you could play some really fun games with ideas about genetic memory!

hmmm . . .



:silly:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
45. Modern research shows multiple waves of migration
Modern research is showing two or three waves of migration to the Americas. One, of course, is about 12,000 years ago and is related to the Clovis culutures, but even that may have been influenced or greatly affected by a slightly earlier migration along the ice edges by sea across a northern European / Greenland route. There may have been a first wave of migration 40,000 years ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #45
71. Familiar with the research, Bernardo,
I was just having a little fun.

Thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #45
79. There are theories
(and I do not think they can be called anything but theories at this point) that people may have come here as early as 70,000 years ago. In 1976 (+/- 5) a professor at Oneonta, NY found artifacts that he believed looked similar to those found in Europe at that distant time. His dating of organic materials found in association with the artifacts came up around 70,000 years old. His conclusions have not found wide acceptance or support, but are reported as speculation in some of the newer books by the NYS archaeologist.

The theories on waves of migration, perhaps at 40,000 and 25,000 bc, and of course the 12,000 bc, strike me as far more likely. But I try to keep an open mind. New discoveries and methods of study are a blessing. And even if we don't find anything, it doesn't mean it never existed.

I am under the impression that an anchor was found of the coast of southern California that is similar to those made in China, and while it is early in the morning, I'm going to guess I remember a date of early AD, maybe 200-400. And some people have looked at the art of some people at that time period, and felt that the deities took on Asiatic features.

Often, if we hold a belief, or are invested in a theory, we find evidence that we interpret as supporting our stance. That could be true in this case. But, then again, people are people, and so it is very possible that Asian peoples traveled great distances at different times. However, the Meso-American languages all fall within specific groups, and there is zero chance that the Mayans are other than native to their lands.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. I thought the Ainu were supposedly Caucasian.
That's what my world history professor told us anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. While Googling, I found speculation that Kennewick man...
was Ainu and/or Caucasian. Here's a random link:

http://www.runestone.org/kmgvtrpt.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Fascinating link, thanks (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. More than mere speculation, serious possibility Kennewick man is Caucasian
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. No Japanese
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 10:40 AM by oneighty
But there is a book 'How the Ancient Chinese Discovered America'. Very interesting read. True? Who knows?

180

Whoops! Book goes by the title 'Pale Ink' if I remember correctly

180
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. some people think Chinese ships made it to the Americas
but I've never heard of a Japanese connection.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
48. The Chinese Ships theory is the 1421 voyages and Gavin Menzies
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. Africa and Europe made it to the new world too.
In Central Mexico there are many artifacts that depict African and European features. Not to mention cocaine residue found in Egyptian mummies. I read a book about this a few years ago. Don't remember the title, but it was long out of publication.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. Hubatz Men, a Daykeeper, used to talk about that...
He told me the ancient Maya had links with culures in Egypt, China, Japan, Tibet, India -- all over the place.

He also told me -- though this is a bit off the Japanese angle -- of a prophecy some 480 years old from a Mayan Grandmother named X'uuk K'in.

As I recall it, the teaching was to come to fulfillment at Vernal Equinox, 1995 at the Temple of Ku'KulKan (el Castillo) at Chichen Itza. The Red Hat people from the West were to come and stand in ceremony with Maya elders. As it happened, three Tibetan Monks, Red Hats, did come and stand with the Maya (about 800 people altogether), and they circumnambulated el Castillo 3 times. Quite a spectacle.

I know of many contemporary and deep linkages between the Japanese and the Navajo and Hopi and Mamuwinini, and I would not be surprised to learn of links with Mayaland.

There is only one hoop.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Amazing, SpiralHawk -- thank you! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
9. did we have the same guide?
i just figured he was making up a tall tale on the spot

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Could be, pitohui! (Seriously? This was maybe 8 years ago.)
And he could, indeed, have been telling a tall tale.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. it was in 2000 for me
yep, i just figured it for a fable
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Could well be, although the info at post #6 is interesting.
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
11. Its an interesting theory, and this is a cool thread
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
12. Have you seen the PBS special Family of Man? I think you'd love it
We are all cousins.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. No -- I'll try to. Thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. It's good - a geneticists tracks our ancestors migrations out of Africa
through samples of DNA from many people from all over, traces where our ancestors traveled and how long they stayed there, and the climatic reasons why we look different now.

There really is no such thing as race.

And when you see 30,000 years ago this and 50,000 years ago that, you realize anything is possible. It is fascinating, some libraries carry the vhs/dvd if you can't wait for PBS to rerun it. PBS also sells it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EuroObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #40
76. There really is no such thing as race.
Right on. Repeat that meme loudly and constantly please.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
14. Years ago, I went to the Ballet Folklorico and there was one
dance where the traditional costumes looked so Asiatic, it was just amazing.

Culturally, there are a lot of similarities between the Japanese and our guys. It's impolite to disagree, to say "no", the family is paramount, everyone in the village is related by title (extended family), you eat last, i.e., serve everyone first, the traditional role of women seem to be similar. And the flip side is an elaborate warrior culture. Hmm. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Hmmm, indeed. Thanks for your perspective. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
87. thank YOU for stirring things up.
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. The civilization older than Atlantis - Mu
Cayce mention it as have others

Japanese temple underwater :http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue13/ar13japanunder.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Very interesting --thanks for posting!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. This article was written by the editor of
ANCIENT AMERICAN magazine not a slouch publication
http://www.ancientamerican.com/
Pictures of the underwater temple at 100 feet



Edgar Cayces the civilization of Mu

Cayce refers to Lemuria or Mu (the latter being one of three island remnants of the former in his usage), but does not give us very much detail
http://sociologyesoscience.com/esoterica/cbooks14.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Also known as Lemuria. I have had my own channelings concerning
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 11:45 AM by OmmmSweetOmmm
it. One of them is, that the language was closer to Sanskrit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EnfantTerrible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Thanks for that link
What an interesting discovery and one I've never heard anything about. Lots of food for thought.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. I think the Maya name was At-lan-ti-ha
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 12:07 PM by SpiralHawk
The Atlantean tales are part of their culture, too, as is true for well over a hundred cultues around the world that tell the tale of the Great Flood which cleansed the earth at the end of the Third World (epoch).

I don't recall hearing any specific things about Mu-Lemuria from the Maya elders I have spent time with, but that may just be because it didn't come up...

There is only One Hoop.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yes the language similarities of the naming of the Atlantic in ancient
cultures is beyond a coincidence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
18. There are various possible connections, but all fairly ancient
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 11:45 AM by starroute
I don't know of anything that would enable Japanese and Mayans to understand each other's languages. However, there are many hints of trans-Pacific contacts in ancient times. It seems likely that until Columbus, trans-Pacific connections were far easier and more common than trans-Atlantic ones.

There are genetic similarities which suggest a connection around the end of the Ice Age. Some Native Americans in the southwestern US (Pima maybe?) have been found to be extremely close to some Japanese. This similiarity is not shared by other Asians or other North American Indians, which means it is unlikely to go back to the original peopling of the Americas.

There are linguistic indications. A linguist named Johanna Nichols has shown that certain distinctive features, such as numeral classifiers, are found in otherwise unrealated languages all around the Pacific Rim -- from China and Japan to New Guinea to the Pacific coast of the Americas. She thinks this is the result of contact around 12,000 years ago.

At a somewhat more recent point, pottery first shows up in the Americas in Ecuador, in just the area where the currents would bring anyone journeying from Japan. (Japan has the oldest pottery in the world.)

I also find I have a saved file of an article from a few years ago (which is no longer online) where a Japanese journalist was saying he felt a sense of familiarity in Mayan and Aztec art that he did not feel anywhere else.

And it's a little off-topic, but you might be interested in this article from a few weeks ago suggesting that Polynesians brought advanced boat-building skills to southern California around 400-800 AD:
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2005/08/03_chumash.shtml


On edit -- Link for Johanna Nichols' work:
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2005/08/03_chumash.shtml
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Really interesting info, starroute --
and a fascinating article. We saw some of these canoes being built at a festival in Hawaii celebrating the various Pacific peoples who came in them to the islands. They were, beyond a doubt, very seaworthy; I wouldn't be surprised if they made it to what is now California.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. Got the second link wrong in my post above
The link for the Johanna Nichols piece should be http://scicom.ucsc.edu/SciNotes/9901/echoes/echoes.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. thanks for the link starroute, it adds another link to my therories on
the history of ancient civilizations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Wow -- look at that Pacific Rim map! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Another fascinating article! Thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
50. Very interesting connection. Thanks for posting it.
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 05:59 PM by Bernardo de La Paz
(on edit: found the Nichols link in your followup post. Good one too.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EuroObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #18
77. Room to mention Jim Jarmusch's "Dead Man" here!
Superb film that ends up touching that Pacific Northwest culture.

Fantastic soundtrack by Neil Young, too...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
21. you know, some scholars
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 11:53 AM by newspeak
argue that there were no inhabitants of this continent and all of a sudden, the Celts, the Vikings, the Chinese well they all came to these uninhabited shores. Just learning some African history and their empires, that the world was trading for thousands of years--there is proof that these empires in Africa (that we don't learn about in school) traded with China and India. I bet thousands of years ago that there was more travel and trading across continents that traditional historians and archeologists won't accept. Some stick to their old theories and refuse to let go. The settlement uncovered in Canada a few years ago, the archeologist at the dig through testing, proclaimed that it was well older the 25,000 years old, which caused an uproar amongst the "orthodox" scientific community." The man was discredited and I believe, fired. My thoughts, I believe there was more trading and culture melding between continents thousands of years ago, then something happened that caused isolation. That's just my two cents.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Look at the article at the link in starroute's post #18 --
it addresses some of this scientific reluctance to accept new theories.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. I bet the "reluctance" is pride and arrogance
masking as professional concern.

Some historians and scientists want to be credited with being the Supreme Brains of the Universe, Whose (Posited) Answers Must Never Be Challenged. It is so annoying, because they actually limit knowledge.

Still, I wonder if more advanced DNA testing might show "scientific" links - at last offering valid proof to combat the crap I was taught in high school:

Caucasians were the only ones who knew how to build decent boats while the advanced Chinese people only walked.

Really. What a stupid concept that one always was to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
28. and about Celtic history
I've read Peter Beresford Ellis, an Irish Professor, who shows the similarities between Celtic music and language to India. He told of a professor of music from India who wanted to study ancient Celtic music and came to Ireland. The Indian professor said I came to hear Celtic music not Indian--it was Celtic music. What's fascinating to me, is the Basque language that linguists cannot find it's cultural base.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
55. Celts and East Indians ARE definitely related
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 06:08 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
They represent the Eastern and Western extremes of the Indo-European language family, which stretches from Bangladesh to Ireland and includes all of Europe except Finland, Estonia, Hungary, and the Basque regions, northern India, Armenia, and Iran.

If you want to see some REALLY related music, rent the movie Lacho Drom, which is a documentary of Romany (Gypsy) music from India to Spain. And yes, the Rom, who originated in western India, are part of the Indo-European language family.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redherring Donating Member (214 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. Ancient Celtic religion and Hinduism also seem to have some
gods in common. There is definitely a connection there. There was a site that dealt with this issue. I can't find it anymore. It was fascinating nonetheless.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. There are similarities among all the ancient Indo-European gods
They have the same roles and different names, such as the familiar Zeus, Jupiter, Wotan, or Aphrodite, Venus, Freya.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
31. Fascinating thread...Can't believe I'm the first to recommend it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. The Japanese language is part of the Finno-Ugaric group
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 12:41 PM by Generic Other
Laplanders and Turks. Nomadic peoples who may very well have reached the New World in ancient times. The Ainu are Caucasian peoples probably related to Inuit and others.

In Washington state, there is evidence that Japanese artifacts influenced Northwest Coast Indians pre-European contact. One of their most valuable items was copper slabs incised with Asian motifs. They were broken into pieces and incorporated in the art (worn in chiefs' hats) and highly prized as there were only a few. They may have been acquired through trading or washed ashore in a shipwreck.

Lots of evidence of contact. Lewis and Clark said to have found Indian children flying kites that resembled Japanese ones in Oregon.

Even today, glass fishing floats routinely float ashore here. Hard to deny that ancient peoples might not have made occasional contact in a variety of random ways.

I had never heard of the Mayan/Ainu one though. I hope our resident expert Distressed American will come add his insights.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
56. The more usual theory is that
Japanese is specifically a member of the Altaic branch, which includes Turkish, Mongolian, Manchu, and Korean. However, it is so different from all of those in so many ways that most scholars believe that there were once "bridge" languages that were more similar to Altaic languages but which died out without being recorded. Some documents found in Korea support this theory.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redherring Donating Member (214 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
58. Ainus don't look caucasian to me
They have caucasian traits like dense body hair, narrow nose, etc, but they predominantly look Asian to me. It could certainly be that Ainus were originally caucasians, and as time went by they absorbed Asian blood.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. They are considered "archaic Asians," that is, Asians who were there
before the now-more-typical East Asian features began spreading out from northeast Asia (China, Mongolia). Other "archaic Asians" are found in Indonesia and other "outer" areas of Asia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
smallprint Donating Member (778 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
36. look up science-frontiers.com, archaeology and anthropology sections
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 01:18 PM by smallprint
lots of evidence of contact between ancient asians, polynesians, native americans, celtic peoples, africans... absolutely fascinating.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
41. Kick, so i can find this for later reading....n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OxQQme Donating Member (694 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Kicking and adding
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/Articles/Ancient_Civilisations_Six_Great_Enigmas.html

High Technology In Stone Age Peru

Lake Titicaca borders Bolivia and Peru in the Andes. The highest large lake in the world, there are many signs it was once exposed to the ocean. Megalithic structures like the Gateway of the Sun in Tiahuanacu, Bolivia, also indicate a long lost past. The gateway was carved out of one solid block, the hard way to make a gate.

Moving northward near Cuzco, Peru, we find even more large, impressive and mysterious structures. Here we find walls built with complex jigsaw type megalithic blocks similar to the more familiar walls found at nearby Machu Picchu. Some of the megalithic structures contain complex cut-rocks weighing over 100 tons; a few were joined together by bronze clamps. Some of the bronze had obviously been poured in place, a skill not available in pre-Columbian Peru.

Like Sumer, the high Andes is an unlikely location for Stone Age cities, evidence of advanced technologies, and seminal agricultural discoveries. It is well established that the region around Tiahuanco, at 12,500 feet elevation, had been turned into a highly productive agricultural zone. That was achieved by the building of dikes, dams, canals and raised beds that created microclimates which protected the plants from frost.



http://www.sitchin.com/elephant.htm

The Discovery
We know how they looked because they left behind countless sculptures, marvelously carved in stone, depicting them; some, in fact, are stone portraits of Olmec leaders; colossal in size, they immortalize in stone what, to many, has been an unpleasant enigma.

The first colossal stone head was discovered in the Mexican state of Veracruz back in 1869. Its discoverer reported it in the Bulletin of the Mexican Geographical and Statistical Society as "a magnificent sculpture that most amazingly represents an Ethiopian." The report included a drawing clearly showing the stone head's Negroid features; and that doomed the discovery to oblivion...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Fascinating cultures, not necessarily as connected as some imagine
I've been to Tiahanacu and it is a fascinating place. The irrigation and hydraulic engineering was quite accomplished. However the articles as quoted in the post make several assumptions and state\s some half truths breathlessly as though true.

All of the Andes shows "many signs it was once exposed to the ocean", but the unstated part is that it was millions of years ago. To say that the bronze clamps poured in place was technology not available is to cast the Incas as a bit more primitive than they were.

The supposed "Negroid features" of the Olmec heads has not prevented them from gaining attention and being researched. In the mid 19th century, several sites were discovered and then lost again due more to poor mapping and navigation than due to racism, which, though present, was not as deep an issue in scientific circles as in other parts of society. Vast tracts of dense jungle are like an ocean. The characterization as an Ethiopian was made on the basis of poorly understood physiognomy. The discoverer probably had not had much if any contact with Ethiopians anyway.

However, the thing to take away is that Meso-American and South American cultures were considerably advanced and were developing along a similar course with the Fertile Crescent / Nile / Indus civilations, except of course they did not have the wheel or the horse or draft animals like oxen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EuroObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #43
78. Is there not evidence that the wheel was known
(eg. from works of art, sacred objects) but not otherwise put to use?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
47. Everyone knows they shared a common ancestor culture in Antarctica
Where they worshipped Predators as gods, and the Predators used them as hosts to gestate Aliens for hunting expeditions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
52. the connection is jade.
we find Asian jade in Mayan burials sometimes. They think there must have been ancient trade routes, but not much proof of the contact, except for the jade. How else do you explain it?

Just a theory.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
65. Not True. All Maya Jade Is Local (Highland Guatamala Mostly).
Definitely no know artifiacts from Asia found North or South America. Not a one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #65
75. you are right of course--i misinterpreted something someone said
Edited on Sun Oct-23-05 01:11 AM by librechik
to me a long time ago

thx!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
53. Japanese language expert here
This sounds like the kind of urban legend that has grown up about all sorts of languages.

E.g. Appalachian people speak Elizabethan English (not true, they have a couple of old-fashioned expressions), Lithuanians can understand Sanskrit (not true, beyond a word or two), Eskimos have dozens of words for snow (actually, they have adjectives for snow), etc. etc.

When I was in graduate school, I knew some people who were working on Maya hieroglyphs, so I have some idea of what the Maya language sounds like. Not at ALL like Japanese.

While I'm convinced that there is some ancient connection between East Asians and Native Americans (there are people in Japan who could pass for Native American), the time depth (ten thousand years or more) of any possible relationship is far too great to allow Japanese and Mayan speakers, or even Ainu and Mayan speakers, to understand each other.

I have a scholarly book about possible relationships among the Native American languages, with samples from many languages, including Mayan, and NONE of them are the least bit like Japanese.

We're talking about a time depth GREATER than that which separates the languages of Europe. The Germanic languages separated only about 2000 years ago, and we can't understand a speaker of German or Swedish or Dutch without actually studying their language. We're only about 5,000 years separate from the languages of northern India, and we sure can't understand them without studying.

The verdict: Yes on a possible really, really distant Japanese-Mayan connection. ABSOLUTELY NO on the Japanese or Ainu and Mayan languages being similar enough to allow speakers to understand each other.

(I know from experience that no one will read this post before responding.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. I read your post, Lydia, and I think you probably have the answer --
it was a compelling story, however, especially as told by a Mayan, standing amid the ruins of Chichen Itza. (And I think the young man believed it.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redherring Donating Member (214 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Isn't it true that Korea also has Siberian connection?
I read somewhere that the ancient Korean religion has some similarities to some religion somewhere in Siberia. Now we all know that there are many researchers who believe that Native Americans came from North Asia. Native Americans have Asian features as well, like epicanthic folds in their eyes.
The connection is definitely there, but a Japanese connection to me appears to be a bit far-fetched.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. The ethnic make-up of Japan is very complex
The Ainu were in the north, also on Sakhalin Island and the southern Kamchatka peninsula. There is an attempt at a cultural revival, just at about the time the language and culture are dying out.

An unknown people known as the Jomon lived there between 10,000 and 2500 years ago and created the world's first pottery. However, their skeletal remains do not exactly match up with those of any modern ethnic group. I haven't heard of any DNA studies, but those would be fascinating. I suspect that the Jomon people are ultimately responsible for what people in East Asia consider a "typically Japanese" face.

There may also be some Malayo-Polynesian cultural connections, especially in the Ryukyu Islands (which include Okinawa) and the south. The southernmost Ryukyu Islands are only 200 miles from Taiwan, where the aboriginal people are Malayo-Polynesian, and the people down there speak something that hardly sounds like Japanese.

Around 2500 years ago, an East Asian people (probably from the Korean peninsula) introduced rice cultivation and gradually took over most of the Japanese archipelago over a period of about 1500 years, although the Ainu had most of Hokkaido to themselves until the late 19th century.

Until about 1100 or so, there was a lot of traffic between Japan and the Asian mainland. The Ryukyus were independent and stayed in touch with China, but Japan remained rather isolated except for brief periods (the sixteenth century) until 1853.

It's not surprising that there should be connections between Siberian and Korean shamanism. After all, Korea is right next to Siberia. Japan also has a shamanistic tradition, especially in the north.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #53
72. Right. The rate of change between peoples cut off from one another
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 10:42 PM by mistertrickster
is remarkably uniform. After about 600 years, the two separated groups will be speaking separate, mutually unintelligible languages. This constant is considered so reliable that it is used to determine when one
group has separated from another.

If a Japanese (or someother language group) could speak to a Mayan, that would mean that the two speakers' groups would have a common root less than 600 years prior. That is extremely unlikely since Europeans have been in Cozumel for some 500 years already.

Also, a lot of people speak Japanese these days. It would be very surprising if these two languages were mutually intelligible and nobody had noticed it or studied it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
86. Nicely analyzed
I have read about a possible southern route into South America, however.

I think it's plausible that if people could find Easter Island from the west, they could accidentally (or on purpose) run into South America.

I agree that the likelihood that peoples separated by ten thousand years would have language similarities is mighty slim.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #53
88. Hey, I love linguistics and I read this post.

Mayan hieroglyphs -- now, that would be fun. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
64. Here Is My Professional Opinion As A Maya Archaeologist.
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 07:17 PM by DistressedAmerican
Can't really say on the language. But, I doubt it. Many Maya languages are mutually unintelligible. There was no early transatlantic contact. The similarities often cited in cosmology and art are explained by a great study by a guy by the name of K.C. Chang.

He studied shamanistic religions around the world and concluded that they shared a number of specific features . Among those features are things like a belief in a tiered world with an upper world, our world and a lower world and a belief in mythic flight that allowed the shaman to travel between the three. They also share a common concept of a world tree. Many of these beliefs show up in the art of those cultures practicing shamanism.

There is a very good reason for the cross cultural similarities. When traced back the roots of all shamanistic practice are found in siberia prior to the past ice age. Native Americans came from that area and those basically asian concepts still persist.

Did a big paper on it once and researched it like crazy. I totally discount transoceanic contact.

Another word to the wise. Most tour guides at Maya sites are full of shit. I have heard the most outrageous inaccuracies proudly whipped off by many. That little badge does not mean anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. yes
Siberia. It's good to see a Maya Archaeologist here. Indeed, you aren't the first of your field to remark about the inaccuracies of the guides at sites like Chichen. Some even say that the guides really get a kick out of the stories they tell to wide-eyed tourists.

Case in point: Chichen Itza isn't even considered Maya, is it?

Some archaeologists hypothesize Mayan trade-links/cultural ties/intermarriage with Teotihuacan, but even that is considered pretty radical.

Regardless, research of Mesoamerica is so cool and I'm jealous of the job you have:) What was it that i heard recently about the location of a pyramid in Guatemala (i believe),once thought to be a mountain, that rivals the pyramids in Thebes?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Close. But, not quite right.
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 07:44 PM by DistressedAmerican
Chichen is definitely Maya. There was an intrusion of Toltecs from central Mexico in the poastclassic period (950AD-conquest).

No Teo connection with this site at all (many earlier ones though). They were out of commission by 600 AD. The feathered serpent imagery and 4 sided temples so common at the site are a reflection of the central Mexican (Toltec) influence at the site. The Toltecs were clearly influenced by Teotihuacan though.

The pyramid you are talking about is the Tigre pyramid at a site called El Mirador. It may well be the largest in the world. Definitely the largest in the New World.

CAN NOT STRESS ENOUGH: Guides are generally full of shit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. I never implied a Teo-Chichen connection.
for the record;)

But thanks for the correction on the Maya Chichen thing. I always thought of it as distinctly Toltec with Mayan overtones as time progressed, you're saying it's the opposite - Mayan with a Toltec overlay?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Yep. Exactly.
Edited on Sat Oct-22-05 08:04 PM by DistressedAmerican
Predominantly Maya population with a veneer of powerful Toltecs at the top. The site predates the Toltec arrival. But, it really took off when they moved in.

I thought you were talking Chichen/Teo. My bad. Early classic period Maya for sure. Tons of influence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #64
74. We were awaiting your posting to this thread, DistressedAmerican --
thank you for sharing your expertise, and thanks especially for these words of wisdom for travellers to the region: "Most tour guides at Maya sites are full of shit."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #64
80. I have a question (or two ... maybe three)
A friend died two years ago. Besides being a well-known pediatrician, associated with Syracuse U, Dr. Richard Hosbach was on the NYS Museum's Iroquois Studies. Fascinating man.

When he died, his daughters decided to auction off his substantial collection of artifacts, and his library. It's enough to make you cringe, because most of perhaps the single largest collection of historical Oneida artifacts has gone to antigue-dealers .... no offense to them, of course, but the science is lost. See: www.hessegalleries.com for details.

Anyhow, I went to get a few things for my collection, and to keep in the area where they were found. (Long ago, one of my boys was ill on Christmas morning; I called Dr. Hosbach, who had me come to his home. As we were leaving, my son pulled a 3,000 year old spear out of his pocket, and gave it to "Grandpa Hosbach" for Christmas. I was both proud and, well, unhappy.)

Among the items I bought was a collection of about 40 pieces from Olduvai Gorge, Bed 1, which he had obviously acquired long ago. I have pulled out my 11-85 National Geographic, and Carl sagan's "The Dragons of Eden." Another DUers recommended two other sources of information. Do you have any suggestions?

I'll be heading up to Hartwick College in Oneonta, to see friend Dr. David Anthony next week, if he has time. I wish Dr. Hosbach's collection went there. (Colgate had hoped for it, too.) While I have some background in northeastern archaeology, I am extremely limited in the area mentioned here. I appreciate any suggestions you or others may have.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Hmmm. That is always a tough one.
As you clearly know those artificats have lost all but their monetary value at this point unless he has some records on the context and other artifact associations. It is a shame the collection was not donated.

While I go to school in Albany NY (drop me a line when you are in the area and maybe we can meet up!), I really do not know that much about the local archaeology. Nore on the Iriquois for sure. Most of my time has been spent on the Maya, precolumbian civs in the Caribbean and the Shang Chinese.

The small copper turtle pendent on the site looks EXACTLY like some we have in the collection at the university. But, alas, I am out of my area of study as therefore not of much use on this one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. His records
(as well as Ted Whitney and Stan Gibson's) are amazingly detailed. All three wrote numerous site reports that are in the NYS bulletins, etc. Robert Funk's best book, "Archaeological Investigations In the Upper Susquehanna Valley, New York State," relies heavily on the three. His private records were supposed to go on sale, too, and we had hoped to secure them for the local (county) museum.

It is a sad thing to see not only the collections being broken up and sold as relics, but the loss of the records hurts more.

I did see Snow, Pratt, and a few of the other older generation Iroquois-studies fellows there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. Ouch. That IS A Bummer!
Can't go wrong with Funk. Snow used to teach where I am until about 6 years ago. We really took a turn away from Northeast arch and to Meso. That shift is what brought me here. A good friend of mine had Snow on his diss commitee. He really like the guy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
diddlysquat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
70. You might be interested in this book:
The Zuni Enigma by Nancy Yaw Davis

It is about the possible connection between the Zuni tribe of New Mexico and Japanese. She builds a pretty stong case


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. See my post no. 53
Everything I said about the alleged Japanese-Maya connection is also true of the alleged Japanese-Zuni connection.

I've done a little googling, and here's what I've found:

Unlike many of the people who propose odd theories about connections between far-flung ethnic groups, Nancy Yaw Davis is actually an anthropologist. I don't know what she says about the respective customs of these two peoples. There may be accidental resemblances. For example, Japan and Europe went through highly similar medieval periods (feudal lords, knights/samurai, lots of monasticism) at approximately the same time without any known contacts between them. (It was too early for the Portuguese and too late for the Silk Road.)

However, if Davis thinks the Japanese and Zuni languages are alike, she's crazy. (Judging from the samples that I've seen on the web.)

People who aren't trained to analyze languages come up with all sorts of crackpot theories. There are definite rules about when you can declare that two languages are related.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
diddlysquat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #73
82. I read her book quite a while ago but I remember that
Language was not her main focus. There was a lot more there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #73
85. Exactly right, Lydia. Languages like Latin and English are clearly
related because of Grimm's law (a small part that can be illustrated by pairs like these)--pesca / fish, pater / father, pugna / fight, pyre / fire.

You can't just have a few grammatical similarities or similar words. That isn't the basis for showing a related language.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC