Apparently the only problem with Rush's hate speech was its target

What I have learned from these boards is that it is ok to hate.

It's ok to hate as long as the hater feels his hate is "justified."

The things that have been said here about Rush are every bit as much hate speech as the hate speech of Rush Limbaugh.

I thought that the majority of folks here were actually against hate without reservation. Hate speech was something we would jeer and hate crimes of prejudice or racism were things that we would find revolting. We had no problem talking about how much hate was ruining our society.

But that I learned is that most of you are full of crap. What you actually meant was "hate is bad, unless we're the ones doing the hating, then its ok, becuase its justified."

I can't believe the unbelievably over the top things said about Rush today. The guy is a mean, hateful, ignorant man, but apparently so are most of you, based on the comments I've read - just for different reasons.

I cannot get over the fact that the biggest lesson from these boards today is that hate is ok when we're the ones doing the hating and when the target of our hate "deserves it." You know what, no one "deserves" hate - and no one "deserves" compassion. Hate is something you accept has no place in life, period and you devote your life to striving against it always. And compassion is something that is not based on the deservedness or "worth" of the receiver - it is something that you devote your life to freely giving, or at least striving for that goal always.

What I've read on these boards has been a whole lot of ugliness, and I don't care how big or good it makes you feel short term, in the end it leaves me feeling sick and recognizing that this is such a telling exmaple of what is wrong with the world.

I do not want us to be the party of hate - even to those who hate us. We come off looking so much better and could get so much further if we would refuse to return hatred for hatred.

Oh well - what can I say, I'm your resident pussy democrat, lurking freeper, "moran" and everything else I've been called by some of you for continuing to say that hate speech torwards rush is no better than anything Rush would say.

I love it how we post comments from the Free Repbulic boards about their hate speech towards Islam. On the thread with the news report where the paster had the sign on his church that said "Islam: America's #1 Enemy" a DUer posted a bunch of quotes from the freeper boards that were this horrible awful hate language towards Muslism. And oh yeah, we all shook our heads and thought "shame on them." And then I bet you anything that some of the exact same people who acted so righteous in their comdemnation of freepers hate turned around and matched their level of hatefulness in their own disgusting statements about Rush. Oh yeah, but darn I keep forgetting -- that's different. It's ok to hate becuase he deserves it...

That's why thy cycle of hate never ends. Becuase there is always someone who thinks someone else "deserves it."

Anyway, I'm outta here for now.. fed up for tonight. :(
{edit - no I'm not yet}

how does the venting of feelings about the pigboy on DU = his brand of spreading hate, lies and RW propaganda daily on a national radio show and making millions??? not even close to being the same thing.

The only difference is the speach is directed at a single person, and not a group of people. I applaud the author for putting so nicely something I tried to say several nights ago. I was very happy to find out that I wasn't the only one who found the conduct of some on this board unseemly. Some of the people coming out in support being folks I usually get into "screaming matches" with.

The people espousing the hate and vitriol we've seen directed at Rush recently are, in my opinion, no better than he in this instance. It's honestly embarassing.

Thank you Selwyn.

i would pray that rush would be repeatedly sodomized in his prison cell by large nasty tattooed convicts.

amen may Rush rot in the Hell he has helped create May he die a slow and horrible death,

he's the spawn of whatever satan is, and I hope he dies horribly like every GI and every dead child in Iraq had to die , the war he supported..

f*ck understanding, … and unlike rush, my vitriol directed right at him and his cronies, not a strawman or stereotype which was his m.o.

fuck rush. fuck his sorry lying, cheating, filthy ass.

I pray... He gets a stroke and suffers for the rest of his life...

He's a hypocritical, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, stupid pig, and just like you, I've got much better things to do with my sympathy.

He is the scourge of the earth and as far as I'm concerned he can burn in hell.

I hope he eats shit and dies!!

Couldn't happen to a nicer, more deserving son of a bitch!

Hate speech rationalized by any ratinale is still hate. I don't take solace in the fact that you do it in our own little community and not at the microphone - for one reason that I'm sure most of the folks who wrote this have and will do it at the microphone any change they get. The bottom line is, you believe hate is ok when you're the one doing the hating and you believe its "justified."

a really fast trip to heaven.

What better thing could I possibly hope for him? A seat at the "right" hand of jeezus...

Karma's a bitch, ain't it?
Bah.

But nice job, 8 syllables in 2 words. I dig big words.

But in any case, you are wrong. Monte Carlo is the last resort.

Now, to the nitty gritty: Why do you think it is necessary to defend a disgusting piece of shit like Limbaugh? I just don't get it. He has worked tirelessly to undermine your right to dissentional discourse (shit, I only managed 6 syllables in 2 words...gotta work on the vocabulationary management)

I hope the hypocritical bastard dies a slow, agonizing death. And that is my humble opinion/wish.

I don't want to be one of those guys that argues just to argue. I posted fallacies, and then realized I didn't have a case. I misread your post. I made the mistake. My apologies.

If liberals are taking a bit of glee from Rush's predicament, I say we are entitled. He has been the meanest, least compassionate humanoid on the planet, and why should anyone show him any compassion now? He has not earned it.

If Rush, or anyone, sincerely asked for my help, I am obliged to give it. I am also obliged to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, today, on the eve of his entry into rehab, Rush no less than twice used Program Speak to elevate himself and put down what he calls liberals. I am perfectly well allowed to find that obnoxious behavior. Were I there, I would have called him on it instantly, just as I would if anyone did that anywhere including an AA meeting.

So Rush can come to any AA or NA meeting he wants and he can expect a warm welcome. But if he thinks he can game the rules like he has everywhere else, he should know that we have seen his type come and go and come and go. In my mind, he’s just a garden-variety drunk.

All that has been said is that kicking him when he's down, and laughing at his problems, is not something we should be doing. We do still need to point out his bigotry and stupidity. Rage against it even. But let's have a little class, style, and decorum. We know we're better then they are...let's show them.

all the way from praying for his recovery to wishing he rots in hell. Let's just say that Limbaugh puts a strain on the Christian precept of "hate the sin, love the sinner."

Yes...there has been a broad range of reactions. Some have been better, and more in line with how Democratic and Liberal people should be behaving.

for a man who said Mary Jo Kopechne was the first feminist(Mary Jo Kopechne was the young woman who drowned in Ted Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick)... Rush was implying that Mary Jo was a martyr because Ted Kennedy's presidential dreams died at Chappaquiddick...

It's hard to have empathy for a man who played the song "I Know I'll Never Love This Way Again" to describe the plight of AIDS patients....

It's hard to have empathy for a man who compared a thirteen year old Chelsea Clinton to a dog....

It's hard to have empathy for a man who skewered Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton for their moral failings.....

It's hard to have empathy for a man who called feminists nags...

It's hard to have empathy for a man who mocks Jesse Jackson and other black leaders....

I don't have much emapthy for JULIUS STREICHER.... That's the role Limbaugh plays in America.... If you don't know who JULIUS STREICHER is do a google search...

on edit- Here's another Rush from another generation...

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Streicher

The Allies hung him at Nuremburg.....

Peace

Brian

it is spelled streicher.

what do you think about the analogy?

My Friend, spot on!

:toast: :toast:

That is a name I've been looking for for quite some time...

Rush Limbaugh's Nazi analog, that is.

For the millionth time I say, thank God these Busheviks dare not emulate the Nazis too closely.

(for how long, though?)

I think we can say that Rush is a hateful hypocrite without getting down in the gutter with him.

as leary as I am to the entire idea of "hate speech" which to me runs close enough to thoughtcrime to merit some hesitation, that concept involves groups of people, not people.

I do not have to love everyone on an indivudal basis, hippie, and neither do you.

Just that we have lost ourselves in all of this bullshit taht ahs been going on recently.

Read my indictment....

...our very spiritual and moral selves? Wow...I didn't realize he was that important. Wow, it is so important that he kick him and laugh at him the we need to give up some of the things we hold dear. I didn't know.

Like I said, what I've learned tonight is that its ok to hate if you belief its "justified."

It's ok when we hate people because we always hate the "right" people. The reason why its wrong when "they" hate is becuase they're hating the wrong people

So the thing that is bad isn't hate itself - its just other people hating people we like. As long as we're the ones doing the hating, then its ok.

It's ok to say the same kinds of shit said on free republic about fundamentalist islamics becuase we're hating the "right guys" while they're hating the "wrong" guy. So its ok to act exactly like them, because we're entitled.

that's what I've learned.

...hypocrasy.

They were both baiters.... Rush just chose a different target....


The Allies hung Julius Streicher at Nuremburg....

Here's my take on Rush....


I don't wish him personal ill.... I just want to see him humiliated and banished from the public square....

He has been pissing in the well we all must drink from for damn near fifteen years.....

I wish him a life altering conversion event that brings him out of the dark and into the light. Bright blessings upon his house that includes peace, wisdom, and compassion for all people.

Hell, I'm not even going ask for an apology...I do believe in keeping my wishes realistic.

Comparing Rush to a Nazi propogandist is moronic at best. Rush is in the same vein as Lenny Bruce insofar as he is dispensing his idea of humor in the political arena. Lots of people hated Lenny Bruce, not because he wasn't funny, but poked fun at THEIR pet projects and beliefs. Rush is more concerned with making big bucks than anything else. That's why he doesn't talk about anything really important. It might run off most of his audience who are so enamoured with the sound of his voice that they don't think any original thoughts themselves. Gee, that sounds like a lot of Republicrats I know.

between Rush and Juluis Streicher are quite strong...

Julius Streicher baited Jews

Rush Limbaugh baited or baits blacks, gays, transexuals, the homeless, the poor , drug abusers (that's rich), liberals,Muslims,secularists, et cetera....

You're half right....

Streicher had more panache....

<kisses>

Brian

on edit- I don't think defending vulnerable groups is tandemount to having a pet project like adopting a road....

Five posts, a double barrel shotgun and an itchy trigger finger. Nice try "John" Birch.

NT

We hate the right person...

Can I hate:

Adolf Hitler

Josef Stalin

David Duke

Pol Pot

Augusto Pinochet

Benito Mussolini

and

Rush Limbaugh

...but it poisons you.

And I'm not one of those who's said anything horribly negative about Rush's li'l problem on DU.

But let's look at the facts: from the time the Fairness Doctrine was overturned, Rush has risen to become the premier propaganda machine for a right wing takeover.

Rush has been the #1 driver in the race to turn Americans against each other.

Rush has abused his responsibility as a broadcaster to serve the public interest, convenience and necessity, which is fully deserving of scorn.

Rush has abused that responsibility to create an army of unthinking, unquestioning dittoheads and in his wake, a new generation of fascist lieutenants who will be happy to take his place while he's in rehab.

Am I laughing about Rush's trouble? Hell no. Cause I know he's going to skate like Dorothy Hamill and now become the right's great martyr, even though for just about every other employee of a major radio chain has to pee in a jar just to fill out a fucking job application. Even though Tommy Chong just got sent off to jail for selling accessories to go with a totally non-addictive, non-life crippling drug.

Even now, on FR, his little soldiers are outraged that John Kerry made a wisecrack about Rush's little problem, nevermind that Rush has made a career out of making falsified attacks against Democratic legislators and executives. They seem to think it's unstatesman-like for one of their targets to slap back.

Fuck Rush. I hope Rush is never able to get straight, because then maybe, just maybe, he will feel the sting that so many other broadcaster have when they lost their jobs because their station picked up Rush's syndication.

It's childish and silly. Again, I will say it, we are better than they are, but behavior like this sure dosen't make it look that way.

Rush, O'Reilly, all of them have been attacking Kerry because of his facial features in order to link him to their favorite target of international scorn.

Oh, how DARE HE spank back! We've been complaining in this forum so long about spineless leaders, and what happens when a candidate throws a spitball back in this liar's face? Complain it was childish?

Screw that. We've been playing this "we're better" game for 11 years and it's gotten us exactly nowhere.

there are better directions in which to finally grow a spine.

Personally I'm up to my ass sick of Limbaugh and his never ending shit hanging of how John Kerry looks. He slams Kerry,he slams the French all in one shot,and on a daily basis.

Childish?,well...I guess Pigboys 20 million listeners don't care whether Limbaugh is childish or not when he makes fun of Kerry,Janet Reno,Chelsea Clinton,Kitty Dukakis-when she had her addiction and on and on.

But wait...lets take the high road,let's be adults,lets not lower ourselves to Limbaugh and his scum listeners level,lets rise above it.

Yeah...lets continue to be milque toast pussy's like we've been over the last 15 years that Limbaugh has been spewing on the airwaves and getting away with it.

There is no taking the high road with these kind of people like Limbaugh. If that fuck kicks the habit and gets clean do you really think there will be some redemption??? BS,he'll be back the next day spew his hate message only stronger since he's not on a high.

I hope Lardass heard what Kerry said and I hope to HELL it caused him some GD pain!!

David

...spouting the same crap Rush does. You are equating being a compassionate human being with being weak. That is exactly waht a Freeper thinks

Is this really what we want to become? Left Wing freeper wannabes?

Why do all of our canidates treat Rush as if he is running against them? He is a radio entertainer and he has done a good job of even throwing the canidates off the real target. They need to focus on shrub and they let Rush get to em....stupid, stupid, stupid!!!

I also think that we are supposed to be the compationate party. You wouldnt ever geuss that by the hate talk about rush in DU...Kinda sad.

among other things, John Kerry has earned the absolute right to say whatever he wants about Rush Lowbrow.

Fuck the hate-nazis that slam for it. Bunch of crybabies.

I'm not a Kerry supporter, but that soundbyte gave him points in my book. Put these whiney hypocrite punks in their place!

We've tried to be kind to these knuckle-dragging assholes, and get laughed at for our efforts. I say, turn the tables and grab the bull by the proverbial horns. Hell yeah!

We ain't takin' no neocon freeper nonsense anymore. No more Mr. Nice Guy.

Some can't seem to contain their minor vicarious vindication enough not go around spreading their satisfaction gleefully and that's unfortunate. We are the party of compassion and consideration and I'm sure we'll all have a moment of reflection where the burden of a rampant drug addiction sends fear and sorrow into our stomachs as we send well wishes to anyone experiencing it. But for now, some can't help make fun of the blatant irony imposed by the universe for all to see. I don't like to chuckle at another man's pain but this one's particularly golden.

Rush bragged about sitting in the Atilla the Hun seat at the EIB Institute? Coined the term Feminazi. Told America that he was a good role model for the "yoots" of America.
And think about this. Rush said the ESPN job was the dream he always wanted and in less than a week, El Rushbo was for all intents and purposes fired for starting a racial controversy where one didn't exist. Based on this event, I think that Limbaugh's real dream was to sabotage the beyond race aspect of sports that is one of the most endearing aspects of sports.
Rush has been sabotaging the lives of millions of American's for years by being the leading figure in a medium so distasteful that it was called "hate radio" long before Rush's current hypocrtical and criminal behavior. I think I'll ration my "can't we all get along impulses" to the humans we as Americans bombed overseas or the people over on the wrong side of the tracks in my own community or ......you get the idea. A rich ass kisser to the zillionaires piglike RepuKKKe who pisses over his own dream because of racist bullshit.....Why should I care that this monster has degenerated into a heroin addict.

It is, sometimes, unavoidable.

Honestly Selwynn, to perpetuate the negativity by calling DUers 'ignorant' completes the cycle of 'hate'.

I would encourage you to come to a place of acceptance. Accept that there are no absolutes in life. Accept that people will be forever flawed (in all their beauty, love, and compassion for others). Accept the fact that you will never live up to your own expectations.

Posting a thread condemning DUers and defending Rush will do nothing to further your goal of 'integrity' or 'consciousness'.

I once asked my father-in-law how could I be an effective advocate for social change. He said, "Start with yourself".

Peace to you.

And I didn't exactly call DUer's "ignorant" in the way you incinuate. The paragraph is:

I can't believe the unbelievably over the top things said about Rush today. The guy is a mean, hateful, ignorant man, but apparently so are most of you, based on the comments I've read - just for different reasons.

In other words, I'm not seeing much of a different attitude from the attitude that Rush has spent his life building an empire on. Criticism is not identical with hate. Negativity is not identical with hate. And the moment when we feel like we are above the need for criticism is the moment we might as well throw in the towel.

Hell, I am going to need criticism, in the future and I've needed it in the past. I wrote an apology two days ago for harsh words. And I bet I'll need called on the carpet again in the future. But I'm glad that happens.

And I believe standing up for what I believe to be right, even in the face of opposition, and rationally saying difficult things does actually in fact further the goals of both integrity and conciousness - far more than sitting silent on the sidelines.

You write an interesting and flowery response, that seems completely irrelevant. Of course I will not live up to my expectations - that does not mean I will LOWER my expectations! Of course we will not be perfect, but we can strive for precfection and by doing so elevate ourselves higher than we might come otherwise.

I definately have no desire to be patronizing to you, which is how your post effected me. I do wish you blessings, but we do not agree that there are no absolutes. We do not agree that it is not appropriate to speak honest criticism to friends. We do not agree that my post was not properly worded, nor that it further contributed to "hate." And we do not agree that since we may never be perfect we should not strive to live the best possible lives we can, and keep reaching closer and closer towards perfection.

In short, we fundamentally disagree. But I do wish you the best.

Regarding the patronizing tone, I'm at fault (to some degree) for 'speaking' to you in such an informal way. Somedays the exchange of ideas deserves more thoughtfulness.

....have a right to be offended and angered by the world's evil forces. To those of you who are upset about the schadenfreude being derived from Limbaugh's situation: get a freaking grip. I went to the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. not too long ago, and I came away with a stronger feeling than ever that Heinrich Himmler was a monster; I get the feeling that some of you would begrudge me even that worthy sentiment, so strong is your tendency to play nice-nice.

I completely understand the anger at Rush. I am offended by Rush and his crap as well. However there is a difference between being offended and angry and stooping to their level in order to laugh in their face.

I also feel a very strong desire not to watch my self become everything I hated about Rush because I am so angry!

If I can get through this and know that even in the fact of a man who has spread so much hate, I did not become that hate myself, I will be incredibly greatful and, honestly, feel a little bit proud. And I don't mean this arrogantly, but I'll feel like I am better than Rush, rather than just as hateful as he is.

...dose not mean that you give him a pass. You don't let him off. He gets punished exactly as everyone else in his position should be.

First off, the emotions from the people who are angry towards Rush are probably more real and genuine than anything coming from the right or anything in Rush's phony life. Do you really believe for one second that the misguided hatred from the right is genuine or heartfelt? It's totally disengenuous and there's no point of rationalizing with them. The anger from those who dislike Rush, for the most part, is heartfelt and because of this, it is NOT going down to the freepers' or Rush's sophistically phony gutter mediawhoring level.

Second, why are you so obsessed with appearances and how you are perceived by others? How juvenile! If you're so worried to look "bad" in the eyes of others when the others might be 1000 worse than you? Do you really think that looking "good" to freepers will win you accolades or any respect from them? Your obsession to appear good is neverending circle that leads to nowhere. Just let your emotions flow. As long as they're genuine, there's nothing wrong with it.

Selwynn I have a few questions for you.

If someone repeatedly punched you in the face for no apparent reason, would you hate them?

If that person knocked you down and started kicking you, would you hate them?

If they then moved on to your relatives, loved ones and or friends did the same thing to them, would you hate them?

If they spread lies, outrageous defamations, bigotted stereotypes about your family and friends, how would you feel about such a person?

Now if this miscreant finally managed to knock himself down a flight of stairs and break his neck, would there be ANY part of you that cheered wildly inside?

What Rush Limbaugh has done to you and your some of your fellow citizens over the last 20 years of his hateful bellering is very much like what I described above. Maybe worse, because it has helped make us sick on a national level.

What is your reaction? To try and dawn a halo while the blood is still running down your own head?

We are humans, Selwynn. We crave and need a sense of justice. When the parkyard bully finally ends up getting his ass kicked, we cheer. Because we are hateful? No. Because we are seeing some universal justice. There is nothing wrong, hateful, or unamerican in that.

It isn't our job to bring it about. We are not the arbiters of karma.

As for your questions my answer is simple. No.

If it was justice, he would admit to the error of his ways because recovery is all about self-examination and mustering the sincere desire to make ammends to anyone you've hurt. Rush will get over his addiction because he has the kind of money that will make that possible. Once recovered he will return to the airwaves to villify all the groups (including addicts) that he has villified in the past. His audience will still cheer him on, more enthusiastically than before.

I'm neither happy nor sad about news of his addiction. It's not surprising to me that a person whose vocation is spewing hatefulness and encouraging brother to turn against brother harbors emotions that require the numbing effects of drugs.

In the meantime, millions who share the same disease, but lack resources or political connections are rotting in jail cells all over America. I wish for their release, which would be true justice, rather than wishing further ill upon the filthy and diseased soul and psyche of Rush Limbaugh.

"I'm neither happy nor sad about news of his addiction. It's not surprising to me that a person whose vocation is spewing hatefulness and encouraging brother to turn against brother harbors emotions that require the numbing effects of drugs."

BINGO. You have just marvelously stated why it IS justice. We get what we give, we give what we get.

If someone repeatedly punched you in the face for no apparent reason, would you hate them?

Having ACTUALLY lived through this, my answer is no. I don't hate them. In fact I wept for them, and for myself - I saw the incident and as a tragedy for me, a tragedy for him, and a tragedy of a world which breeds so much hate. And over the next few months I reflected and wrote about how I wished I could help the person who did that to me, and my thoughts about a world so desparately in need of love.

If that person knocked you down and started kicking you, would you hate them?

See answer number one.

If they then moved on to your relatives, loved ones and or friends did the same thing to them, would you hate them?

Four years ago, my love was raped. I saw the man who did it, and he never went to jail. I was angry. That's an understatement. But when I would yell to my father (who helped me get throug hit so I could help her) about why he did this, it would turn into tears, and what I felt was a broken heart over the tragedy of the entire event. I wanted him to be punished for what he had done, or course. And wanted him to experience the punitive/retributive side of justice. But I also believed very strongly in restoration, and I wanted him to get help. But I cannot honestly describe the hurt or even the anger that I felt as hatred.

Now, it was different for her. And I respect that. But eventually, she too discovered that hate is baggage, and that it was killing her life slowly and she was able to forgive.

Having said that however, your argument is not much different than the red herring argument against Capital Punishment that goes: "If your daughter was brutally raped and murdered, wouldn't you want to see the man put to death?" You know the best answer to that question? Of course I would want him to die! In fact in my grief I would want it to be the most horrible death imaginable, but that doesn't make it right - and its probabay a good thing that fathers of raped and killed daughters don't get to be judges or juries in those cases! Capital Punishment is still wrong, whether your in a place to emotionally be able to accept that or not.

(Please don't hijack the thread for a debate on captial punihsment.)

It's one thing to be angry - its another thing to revel in hate. When I went through the rape time, I don't want to down play my anger. But .. its hard to describe... I didn't want to find the guy and torture him or kill him or something. Part of the reason my anger and grief was so hard to deal with was becuse it was mostly questions of "why" and those "why questions were larger than just this one man who did this. They were questions about the world, and why suffering and why evil and so on. I was very angry, but without really having the words to decsribe, I have to tell you it was very different from abject hatred.

If they spread lies, outrageous defamations, bigotted stereotypes about your family and friends, how would you feel about such a person?

Sad. Very sad. I don't wish for them to die, or be sodimized, or burn in hell or be mutilated. I wish for them to stop the hate, to be sorry and feel my forgiveness.

Now if this miscreant finally managed to knock himself down a flight of stairs and break his neck, would there be ANY part of you that cheered wildly inside?

It's possible, and the best thing that could ever happen to me is if I could come to a place through either prayer, personal reflection or councelling to where I could let go of the hate that took pleasure in anyone else's suffering and truly forgive this person. Haveing actually had to do this, I can tell you it was ten times more healing than any other kind of "justice."

What is your reaction? To try and dawn a halo while the blood is still running down your own head?

That's exactly my reaction, the best reaction I could hope for. I fail frequently, but the successes are very sweet.


We are humans, Selwynn. We crave and need a sense of justice.

What I am refering to tonight is not justice - it is vindictive. I know this isn't the response you were looking for, but I hope we can keep out of the flame pit.

--EDIT: the short answer to all your questions is no the thing that I would feel to each of those eventis is a base emotion of sorrow, not hatred.

You've explained what so many people are feeling today.

After being 2 years of being told we are "unpatriotic" for not agreeing with bush, we are not being called "unsympathetic" for not crying over rush. Ridiculous.

The God and Goddess know I'm not...however, I am also not going to act in a manner that is less than I expect of myself. I like having high standards for myself. I love being able to say at the end of the day that I lived up to them one more day. The days I fail to do that are few but they do happen. I pick up and drive on after.

...and decided to start defending myself and my beliefs after being expected to take the "high road" even when it gets your head kicked in. No more of that, forever (apologies to Chief Joseph).

Thanks for your thoughts, Katie.

I agree with every word you say.

As someone who comes from a community that faces hate and discrimination on a daily basis I can certainly see what you are saying. And your words are justified.

Just look at a lot of the anti gay sentiment we see pop up on DU on a pretty regular basis, by a select few who believe their hate is warranted.

I was in total shock when I ran a recent poll in the lounge about gay marriage and we had two votes stating that marriage is a sacred agreement between a man and a woman. I was also shocked to see that 14 votes went to people who believe marriage needs to stay between a man and a woman, yet seek for equality under the law for LGBT folks? That doesn't make sense because equality does mean equal for all. That means marriage rights. Without those rights then nothing is equal is it?

The form of anti gay talk we do see here is hate speech. I get sick of it, as do a lot of other LGBT folks around here.

My partner Sapphocrat gets so tired of it that she ends up leaving DU for a while so she can gather her strength again.

It is very sad. My motto has always been that hate is the dirtiest word of them all and should never be said or used.

I know I am guilty of saying things in the past that was hate speech, but the difference is I know I have done it and I am the one that lives with that guilt from that day on.

I love your entry. Every word you spoke is exactly how I feel, and I thank you.

FC

you're all giving Rush way too much credit. He is nothing more than an opportunist, who will say anything anywhere to stir the pot of hate so he can keep his 25 million dollar house, fancy car, etc. Most likely he doesn't even believe most of what he is saying, but he will say it anyway just to keep the money coming in. Save your anger for when Jeb declares it Rush Limbaugh Day because he was actually in on the sting to catch the scumbags that are selling the stuff. Never mind that you couldn't possibly take as many of the drugs that he got from the pushers personally, so he had to be pushing them off on friends for favors, like giving him more ideas that could stir the pot even more. Forget him - he ain't worth your trouble. Believe me, Rush will come out of this smelling like a damn rose.

If those things do happen then I still want to be morally superior to him on the other side of all of this.

...to his standard isn't right either. Two wrongs don't make a right, and three wrongs is what causes hate and discrimination.

..and tell you I loved ya. And if are currently in a relationship then I'd hug on the both of ya.

This is going to sound kind of.... well sheltered. But you know what makes me sad? I'm sad that I live in idaho and I've know so few gay people. I've had some good gay friends but they moved out of this state the first chance they got. I wish I had more chances to love on gay folks - I know that might sound a little, um... well boarderline offensive if you look at it the wrong way. But the reason I say that is becuase I wish I had more opportunities to stand up and proudly stand beside gay americans and say "I AM WITH THEM." :)

Anyway, sorry for the digression.

I am far from perfect. Even on these boards I've really freaked out from time to time. But I've come to believe that life is not about perfect performance, its about a) desire and b) willingness to make wrongs right. I hope you will point it out to me in the future if I get out of line. I'd eagerly make it right. And that to me, seems like all we can hope for.

There's a big difference between saying "I hope Rush rots in hell!" in anger and then two days later having the guts to come back and say "I apologize I was angry, but now I really just feel compassion and mercy" and saying "I am NOT sorry, I feel NO sympathy," and choosing to revel in the anger.

Anyway, thanks

Just like they have that hug an Aussie day.

If I was there I would take that hug. I could really use a hug right now.

Thank you, again. You truly are inspirational.

as much as anybody.

But it's easy to love the loveable. It's the hateful, the despicable, twisted, perverted souls who challenge us the most.

It doesn't matter to Rush whether I love him, hate him or ignore him. I'm sure he has nothing but disdain for me. But to the extent that I can not-hate him, to the extent that I can (gasp, bleahhhp) love him, I become something greater, something finer than I was. And I become a little more comfortable inside my own skin. And I create an internal environment of neurotransmitters and hormones that help to heal me from within. Thus the profit is all mine. Loving a Rush becomes a selfish act in a sense--at least an act that benefits me very directly in measurable, psychophysiological ways. So I strive, feebly, haltingly, to not-hate him, maybe even to love him a little bit. Then I go and take a shower and try to think about something else.

You also don't have to come back as a garden slug in the next life.

know there is a God and that he hates injustice"

-Abraham Lincoln


Rush and his ilk have been spreading around injustice way too long....

...and they are going to reap what they sew (sp?). Isn't that a nice round way for things to come out? We just shouldn't be gloating about it. That's really all we're saying.

but what nice things Rush will say about you!


CLARK FOR PRESIDENT
"I'm going to give them the TRUTH and they'll THINK it's hell."
So I Built This Web Site
Read The Book

It's about me. I don't feel compassion towards Rush because I think he deserves it. I feel compassion towards Rush becuse I think I deserve it.

While I choose not to engage in hateful behavior, I can understand the frustration of others and believe that karma is playing out and Rush is reaping what he has sown. After more then a decade of spewing half truths/lies, smears, belittleing, taunts, becoming the forerunner of right wing hate media and the political fall out, it's only expected that he will get back what he has put out to others. In AA/NA they strongly emphasise the consequences of your action, behavior and accountability. I have seen first had the horror and pain of the disease of addiction and don't wish that on anyone. I can even find some empathy for Rush if he becomes a recovering addict. However if he is to truly recover and change look at some of the 12 steps.

"Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves."

"Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs."

""We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character."

"We made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all."

"Made direct amends to such people whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others."

Rushbo has quite a tall order to fill and the last two indicate that he owes all of us quite a bit of amends. If he is back to polluting the airways in 30 days, it's clear that he is still an addict and has no credibility and should be written off entirely.

He will NEVER be able to do a 12 step program. With a long-term addiction as bad as his is, you have to work the program, which means going to meetings regularly and he won't do it. Unless he is willing to fundamentally change who he is, he will never succeed.

I hope to see limbo do time.
You reap what you sow.

That would be justice. Behaving like a demented freeper because he has finally fallen is not fine.

For Rush. None.He's been a despicable mouthpiece of ignorant, bigoted, right wing ideology for over a decade. He's convinced 20 million people that poor people are lazy bums driving Cadillacs. He demonized Hillary Clinton, to say nothing of the lies he spread about President Clinton.
Now poor ol' Rush is reduced to confessing his weakness to his legion of hateful pinheads.
It is perfectly appropriate to jump right out of our chairs and do the TOUCHDOWN DANCE!
DaveK

And I've learned that according to most if you hate is ok as long as you're the ones doing the hating. Acting as bad as Rush or just like the freepers with their hatred is ok as long as you personally feel it is "justified."

That's all I'm saying. And everyone of you who posts and says "fuck that bullshiit" or "Sorry, No Sympathy" just reinforces my point.

I don't see a dimes worth of difference between him and Rush...

The right emotion is not necessaily what might be perceived as care-bear sympathy either...

In my opinion, the right emotion is "heartbrokenness" - a willingness to cry over both the suffering of the victimizer and the suffering of the victim.

Basically, I believe hate is always, under all circumstances, a vice. I also believe it is a defense mechanism, to keep us from weaping, when weaping is probably what we should do - that which would ultimately create more positive opportunities in the future than hate.

...doing a touchdown dance when the protesters were getting shot with rubber bulllets and saying "the only bad thing is the cops weren't using full metal jacket rounds"?

..against people. Some of his followers will say Rush was just fooling around but a lot of others actually do take his word as truth. And his followers have been listening to him for a very long time.

Let your fellow DUers rant and rave. We are only preaching to the choir, it's not like we get to air our comments on the radio daily to conservatives. Won't you and other apologists let us have our say without your disapproval? My advice to you is if you don't want to hear what we have to say about Rush, just move on to the next subject.

Thanks.

It's not about Rush its about the kind of people I believe *WE* should be.

However, that said, I hear whaty ou are saying. But there is a line where enough is enough. My advice to you is that if you don't want hear what I have to say about Rush, jsut move on to the next subject. :D

Thanks.

You can NEVER understand!
You cannot understand what it's like to be a transsexual (like me) and hear this pigboy make jookes about Snap-On Tools (referring to a female to male transsexual) or to make jokes about male-to-female transsexuals, like the joke he cracked about the California TS woman who got an award for someting about being "the most influential woman in ...damn, I really don't exactly remember...but Rush's comment was that the recipient had said "well, part of me doesn't feel right about this award..."

No, he is a mean-spirited hateful little bastard, and I have NO compassion for him until he apologizes for, and refrains from HIS ill comments towards transsexuals!

Fuck him!!

Sign me
Male to Female Transsexual who is PROUD...and VOTES DEMOCRAT!!!

..you are wrong.

However, I desire with all my heart to be better than he is. I am unwilling to let him win by allowing anything to do with that man flood my heart with the blackness of hatred.

and say the same thing to me.:) You got to understand the hurt Rush has inflicted. But like I said, give your fellow DUers a break.

"...Let us have our say without your disapproval?" Oh, so sad. I just hate it when everyone isn't super agreeable about MY opinion. Sounds to me like you should move to one of those countries that only allow one opinion to be voiced. Thank goodness that you live in the greatest country (but not perfect country) on the face of the big blue marble.

You are conflating hate for a person based on their actions and words with "hate" for a person based on their race or sexual orientation.

There is a VAST difference between the two. In the former case a person who has done vast amounts of damage to innocent people is being hated for that act, where as in the latter, people who have done NOTHING wrong are being hated for who they are rather than what they have done.

Are you saying it is not right to hate murderers or rapists?

In fact, Rush is being hated for the hate he spread. How can you even suggest the two are the same? Should we not hate Hitler? After all, he didn't personally kill Jews, he only encouraged others to do it by spreading hate! Should Hitler be pitied for his beliefs?

You are TOTALLY WRONG.

You are trying to define "hate" to mean one thing, when in this case it is being used to describe two DIFFERENT things: hatred of a man who acts like scum, vs hatred of anyone who doesn't fit in with the haters beliefs, regardless of whether they have done anything wrong or not.

How can you suggest hatred for an entire race or religion is the same as hatred for one hateful man?

Only a fucking idiot like Rush would think the two are the same.

...hate is a soul destroying world poisoning emotion. It dosen't matter if you hate one person, or 100, or 1 million. It is the dose that is the poison.

You love Rush all you want. I will continue to hate him and be just fine thank you very much!

I'll hate the "sinner" just as much as he hated the innocent!

I hate Osama Bin Laden but I don't hate all Muslims...

I hate Hitler, and my favorite example Julius Streicher, but I don't hate all Germans....

I hate Pol Pot but I don't hate all Cambodians....

I hate Rush for what he did and not who he is....

Your post was spot on....

but as we have seen....arguing otherwise is proving to be a useless exercise. Fortunately fighting the good fight, even when it isn't popular, is something I believe strongly in.

Please

Rush is a disease, and the ONLY cure is to expose him to all the hatred he exposed so many others to. Why should he be treated any better than he treated others? He did unto others, and now it is time for us to do unto him.

If he had NOT treated others this way, I would join you in calling for him to be spared from ridicule. But he did, and it is time for him to reap what he has sown.

I am NOT hating him because he is right wing, I am hating him because he was a lying bastard who crucified others for the same deeds he was guilty of. He is not worthy of my forgiveness. If he was willing to ASK for forgiveness, not for taking drugs, but for spreading hate, then I might see fit to give him a break.

But the man is unrepentant - he is a PROUD sinner, and now that he has been exposed as the lying hypocrite he always was, he deserves to be crucified in return until he confesses to the far greater sin of being a racist, sexist, lying arsehole.

the always, always, always leads to terrible results.

Forgiveness is the highest plane of human thought that I can think of.

Hate is wrong no matter what.

No one said it would be easy.

Hate is OFTEN justified, and many times leads to good results. People hated Hitler and they dealt with him. If people had refused to hate Hitler, the Nazis would still rule Europe.

By the way, do you HATE hate? It sure seems so!

Hate consumes people. We don't have time for hate.

Hate is the generic word, and implies that one is inflamed with extreme dislike. We abhor what is deeply repugnant to our sensibilities or feelings. We detest what contradicts so utterly our principles and moral sentiments that we feel bound to lift up our voice against it. What we abominate does equal violence to our moral and religious sentiments. What we loathe is offensive to our own nature, and excites unmingled disgust. Our Savior is said to have hated the deeds of the Nicolaitanes; his language shows that he loathed the lukewarmness of the Laodiceans; he detested the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees; he abhorred the suggestions of the tempter in the wilderness.


Schadenfreude
Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.

So,one is temporary,the other all consumming.

If you're being beaten up by a man 3 times your size, and he happens to fall down, you don't help him back up. You kick him.

Rush Limbaugh has done very tangible harm to real live human beings. He's helped sell incredibly viscious ideas and policies in this country for 15+ years now. He's helped to spread all sorts of hatred; for minorities, gays, the poor... you name it. He helped sell the Iraq invasion to the American public.

Bush himself called Limbaugh a "national treasure". He's their single best salesman/mouthpiece. He's got alot of blood on his hands, and he's done it all for money.

As much as I respect your commitment to forgiveness, I don't share it. I think it's perceived as a weakness by men like Limbaugh, and they'll use it to beat you if you let them.

And also, I'm willing to be beaten... again. I'd rather be right and beaten then wrong and unscathed.

:)

We've become too much of a "mommy party", overly caring about the feelings of even those who seek to destroy us. Limbaugh is a hatemonger who would kill each and every one of us if he had the chance. Now he is down and I say kick his teeth in so he never gets back up.

Hehe, wow I've always wanted to say this:

If being wrong feels this good than I don't want to be right! :D :D :D

NT

This is once again like the same fallacious argumentation in favor of capital punishment that asks the question, "if your daughter was brutally raped and murdered wouldn't you want to see the person put to death?" The answer is of course I would, and I'd probably want it to be barbaric and torturous and agonizing if you asked me that question two weeks after my daughter was killed - that has nothing to do with making it morally right. And that's probably why its a good thing I wouldn't be placed in the place of judgement in that situation - because reason and not emotion is the way to real justice, which has a lot less to do with retribution.

And by the way, I'm not sure how much you actually know about the attitudes of various Jews towards the holocaust under hitler. But they certainly were not uniform. If you want to discover something truly amazing, read holocaust poetry. Now, the protest poems of anger and sorrow are poignant and heartwrenching and understanable, but the truly amazing and inspirational ones, are poems written about forgivness.

I'll tell ya, you want to be blown away and feel like you just got a new lease on life, read those. :)

Yet another reason why hate is baggage, and it is never right.

Was he right or wrong?

and banishment from the public square....


He gave his enemies a hammer and now they will beat him over the head with it at every opportunity...

Props to this guy!!

if I am not interfering with their person or civil liberties.

deal of difficulty understanding) as long as they do not intefere with the persons or civil liberties of the object of their hatred. Ask the ACLU.
Your relentless insistence on defining the proper attitude for individuals echoes with a goosestep all its own.

And I have the right to call you dead wrong. :)

Of course people have the right to do all kinds of things that don't hurt others - including smart things and stupid things, right things and wrong thigns.

I have no diffuclty understanding your right to be wrong, nor my right to call you wrong. :)

-EDIT- proud member of the ACLU :)

Check it out at www.whatreallyhappened.com

A few quotes from the anti-Rush site, http://www.rushlimbaughonline.com/articles/firerush.htm

"And the laws are good because we know what happens to people in societies and neighborhoods which become consumed by them. And so if people are violating the law by doing drugs, they ought to be accused and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up."
RUSH LIMBAUGH

"When you strip it all away," Rush had said of the Grateful Dead guitarist, "Jerry Garcia destroyed his life on drugs. And yet he's being honored, like some godlike figure. Our priorities are out of whack, folks."
RUSH LIMBAUGH

And we should feel sorry for him?

What comes around, goes around.

for poor Rush on this thread.

If he were of darker skin color, and much poorer, likely he'd not only already be in jail - he'd be doing hard time. No expensive therapy sessions, leather couches, beanbag bears and hypnotic regression into arrested developement from bad toilet training. JAIL.

Just out of curiousity, was there also a Grief Counseling Kumbayah here over Michael Milken?

Rush Limbaughwill do his "30 days of rehab" and go back to his $250 million job and not another word will be said about it.

If it was a high profile Democrat, guaranteed charges would be brought. If it was a poor black man, guaranteed he would be looking at a mandatory minimum of ten years in a Florida prison as well as 25 years in a federal prison.

Since it's Rush Limbaugh, no prosecutor will touch him, let alone convict him of crimes that an ordinary person would be looking at having the book thrown at them over.

Most dsplay their disgust at the double standards by lashing out at the vile piece of human dung who will be given a walk over their crimes.

October 11, 2003

This is What Rush Limbaugh Thinks About People Who use Drugs: And What the Faux President Thinks About the Demagogue Drug Addicted Populist

A BUZZFLASH NEWS ANALYSIS

Part I: The Faux, Demagogue Drug Addicted Populist on Drug Users

"We're going to let you destroy your life. We're going to make it easy and then all of us who accept the responsibilities of life and don't destroy our lives on drugs, we'll pay for whatever messes you get into."
-- Rush Limbaugh show, Dec. 9, 1993

"I'm appalled at people who simply want to look at all this abhorrent behavior and say people are going to do drugs anyway let's legalize it. It's a dumb idea. It's a rotten idea and those who are for it are purely 100 percent selfish."
-- Rush Limbaugh show, Dec 9, 1993

"If (Surgeon General Jocelyn Elders) wants to legalize drugs, send the people who want to do drugs to London and Zurich, and let's be rid of them.
-- Rush Limbaugh show, Dec 9, 1993

"There's nothing good about drug use. We know it. It destroys individuals. It destroys families. Drug use destroys societies. Drug use, some might say, is destroying this country. And we have laws against selling drugs, pushing drugs, using drugs, importing drugs. And the laws are good because we know what happens to people in societies and neighborhoods which become consumed by them. And so if people are violating the law by doing drugs, they ought to be accused and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up.

"What this says to me is that too many whites are getting away with drug use. Too many whites are getting away with drug sales. Too many whites are getting away with trafficking in this stuff. The answer to this disparity is not to start letting people out of jail because we're not putting others in jail who are breaking the law. The answer is to go out and find the ones who are getting away with it, convict them and send them up the river, too."
-- Rush Limbaugh show, Oct. 5, 1995

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/10/ana03004.html

What matters is how we should act.

...and I find this 'feel good' thread rather insulting to those who have been fighting the RWing takeover of our country. You're exactly the type of 'lefty' the neocons love to have around to justify their own hatred.

- Of course it matters what Rush thinks. He uses the PUBLIC airwaves to turn people against each other and then brags about it. He 'thinks' people that use/abuse drugs are scum and should go to jail...but doesn't apply this standard to himself or anyone that shares his POV.

- If YOU want to 'act' a certain way...go for it. But don't expect others to fall for your BS during these times when Americans MUST speak out against the hatred the RWingers use to intimidate and oppress us. It's fine with me if you enjoy the feel of the hobnail boot on your neck. But please stop the guilt trip and lectures.

to express what I believe is right and not right. I find your argument for your own right to act however you want without criticism just as compelling as I would find the argument from a murderer, or a terrorist, or anyone else justifying bad behavior in the name of their rights - not very.

..and I find this 'feel good' thread rather insulting to those who have been fighting the RWing takeover of our country.

Like me.

You're exactly the type of 'lefty' the neocons love to have around to justify their own hatred.

In addition to being ad hominem, I also find it difficult to believe that the "lefty" targets of neocon justification are people advocating compassion. There are far more sexier targets easily pointed to to justify their own hatred. For example, I don't see conservatives outraged at liberals who express mercy towards Rush. What I DO see however, are already articles and freeper posting using those expressing feelings like YOU for justification of their own hatred.

Of course it matters what Rush thinks.

It doesn't matter what Rush thinks in term of my expression of setiments that are not hateful. But thank you for making my original point over and over again, repeatedly. You are again making it clear that to you, hate is justified as long as a) you are the won doing the hating and b) you feel your target "deserves" it. I don't believe that a merciful attitude is conditioned upon the deservedness of the other.

- If YOU want to 'act' a certain way...go for it. But don't expect others to fall for your BS during these times when Americans MUST speak out against the hatred the RWingers use to intimidate and oppress us.

I don't need to expect it - it is already evident that many do, though many don't. As for BS... well you say potato. :)

But please stop the guilt trip and lectures.

I'll surrender my right to free expression on the forums when you surrender yours. No wait.. no I won't. :)

Cheers!
Sel

...possibilites of being trapped in an alternate universe...

that Rush appears to have stopped bashing drug users when he became one himeself...

I wonder if the "new" Rush will stop bashing criminal defense lawyers...

...and I will use every oppurtunity to point out this evil, and provide examples (Rush) of this evil.

Exposing evil/hypocrisy is not "hate"

And I don't think it's actually hate we are feeling, at least I wouldn't describe my feelings that way. Others may, it's his or her own perogative. I think it's more of a vindication that people such as El Tubbo are not the moral stalwards that they have always held themselves out to be. Right-wingers believe they have the lock on morality and this is proof (of what most of us always knew anyway) that they do not. It's high profile, embarrassing truth that they are lying liars as well as hypocrites, and I don't think we should have to apologize for having fun with it. He deserves all of the disdain and contempt that we are heaping upon him.

Rush spread hate for years, its only natural that his bigotry caused millions to feel hatred for him in return. Have you noticed? When you're kind, people are kind to you. When you're hateful, people are hateful towards you!

:nopity: