Twelve step Cults?

http://www.rational.org/Cult.html

In light of the Rush development.

Apparently AA and its offshoots are not as benign as they appear.
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12. Mind control techniques; intimidation

While some cults jinx or curse departing members with divine or karmic punishments, AA promises refuseniks hell on earth, either from inevitable drinking or using, or from a malady called dry drunk. The dry drunk concept is one of the most sinister mind-traps ever devised to retain errant cult members. Knowing intimately how addicted people cannot imagine a satisfactory life without the substance, and understanding well the insatiable appetite to continue drinking or using, cult novices are told that quitting drinking or using is useless since addicts cannot be happy, cannot cope with normal stresses of life, or will simply self-destruct after prolonged suffering and deterioration.
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Facist? Mabye.
Crazy? Definitely.

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/default/en_about.cfm

Wackos

Thanks for the laugh.
:hippie:

That's the best I can say for malarkey like that.

12 Step groups are leaderLESS -- so much for the cult theory about AA or any other 12 Step group. Cults require a charismatic leader.

I've been to a bunch of different 12 Step group meetings in my life. Not a hint of intimidation about them anywhere. Nor in the official literture of the 12 Step groups.

Bullshit, pure and simple. I suspect whoever wrote this is protecting their own supply for all they're worth.

Eloriel

there's nothing in the definition of "cult" that requires a "charismatic leader".

And just as L. Ron Hubbard is no longer the leader of Scientology, Bill Wilson is no longer the leader of AA, but that doesn't mean they're both not revered by practitioners.

He and Dr. Bob FOUNDED A.A..... big diff....

each group is autonomous. there are no leaders. sure Bill W. was/is
revered by the "practitioners" of A.A. but he never declared himself
"leader". do some homework.

When ever two drunks meet to help each other to stay sober, that is where
you'll find AA.

Did ya know they sued in Germany over copyright infringement?

I know "cult" is politically incorrect, but they're more high maintenance than your average bridge club, to be sure.

smokers..........

yourself. Honesty is highly valued in 12-step groups.

I think your excerpt is completely false.

What can you expect, though? Drug (legal and otherwise) abuse is a multi-billion dollar industry in America. I'm sure it will be here long after we're all gone.

that inflames passions all around.

I will just say that I have spent some time in 12 step groups, and I left because I considered them cults. Helpful cults, yes, to many people. But scientology is helpful to many people, too. Doesn't mean it's not a cult.

I'd say you are looking for a way to drink/use again.
You can't.
AA isn't a cult. There's no sex, no leader and no $$$'s involved.:)

I can and I do. Do your own inventory.

Cults don't require sex, leaders or $$$.

I also have never tried to dissuade anyone from a 12 step program. It's just not for me. More power to you if it's what you want, but other people DO have a right to critique the belief system.

What were you doing at 12-step groups?
Research?

and yes Scientology can be helpful and it IS a cult.
Heart surgery is helpful and it isn't a cult. So what?

heart surgery is not a group of people participating in regular rituals and sharing a belief system.

Scientology is. As is AA. Surely you can see the difference?

Sounds like a Rolling Stones tour

that's not too far off the mark.

I've met a number of "deadheads" in the past who I would've considered part of a cult.

gin

All the Stones are doing is playing some kick ass music, not making people follow a specific way of life. The fact that they are STILL popular is a testament to their musical talent and the fact that they are still playing shows that they love what they are doing.

people who are being made to follow a specific way of life?

I knew an atheist who succeeded in AA. He didn't believe in God and initially had a problem with the "Higher Power". He was a mechanic, so he took this old greasy washer and made it his "Higher Power". Corny as that sounds, it worked.

There are lots of atheists in AA who don't jump through hoops like using inanimate objects as a higher power. The steps are suggested; they aren't mandatory.

that don't have a leader, a sexual angle or a money angle.

the discussion here is whether or not AA is one of them. As for a leader, I maintain that Bill W. is the equivalent of L. Ron Hubbard as far as the concept of "leader" goes. That's not to say I compare his life's work to Hubbard's - only that many years after his death, people read his writings and take them to be somehow divinely inspired.

When I heard people at meetings reading from the Big Book and dissecting each sentenced as if they were bible verses, I decided it was time to go.

I spent 11 years there, and I don't regret those years. But I don't regret leaving, either.

we call them
To each his own. Whatever gets them through the night. Don't know about the quality of their lives though.
The whole point of recovery is to end up with a fulfilling content life without drugs, whatevr path you take. 12-step or not.
Part of that is learning to lighten up a bit. You can do that OK in AA. Nobody preaches, or if they do they are pooh-poohed.

I bet you can think of a few things about 12 step programs that you like. You're supposed to "Take what you like, and leave the rest". You can be involved with these groups without embracing everything available in them. Each person understands what will work for them and what is just extra stuff that doesn't apply. So leave what you don't like in the room and take only what applies to you with you when you walk out the door. It's that simple. Out of curiosity, did you get stuck on a certain step and had such a difficult time moving forward with it that you gave up? It sounds like there are a lot of 12-steppers here, and that's what sponsors are for. Maybe someone can offer some insight that can help, if you just ask?

I had an employee, a good one, who constantly tried to spread Scientology to clients and co-workers. I warned her countless times to stop it, but to no avail. I had to let her go.

I was curious why someone would behave like that, but then I learned about Scientology. It it mind control.

AA is no different. Crazy shit. A totally forced belief system.

not only at a low point in their lives, most all cults do that, but their target audience is addictive personalities. Brilliant!

I never even thought of that.

I think there are a LOT of cultish things about AA. I will, however, say that it's a relatively benign cult. By that I mean, it's not somebody scamming somebody else for advantage.

The harm that IS done, though, is the belief instilled in a lot of newcomers that they cannot live a life free of drug or alcohol abuse in the absence of a restrictive regimen of meetings, steps and sponsors. That may be true for some people, but is definitely NOT true for all people.

Who's in charge of the AA cult? What's the benefit to the AA cult? How did this brilliant scheme develop? I'm really curious.

Any organization that requires slavish devotion and preaches destruction of "unbelievers" to it's members is a cult.

Who's in charge, doesn't have to be one...... Koresh still has followers.

What's the benefit to the AA cult? ........... superiority and self congratulations.

How did this brilliant scheme develop? I'm really curious. .......... So am I. But it was brilliant.

Superiority and self congratulations. From anonymous people whose entire program is based on humility. Interesting.

And A.A. doesn't require slavish devotion, people are encouraged to go back out any time they want. And if you don't think active alcoholism and addiction cause destruction, then I guess you're living in an alternate universe. Telling people the truth of addiction, that has been well documented by various government agencies, seems to be the appropriate and kind thing to do.

No leaders, no money angle, no sexual angle, no forced ideology, no "threat of destruction," no "slavish devotion," no recruiting.

Not a very good cult, is it?

Eloriel

but there *IS* a multi-billion dollar "recovery" industry in this country that steers hundreds of thousands of people to people to 12-step programs.

My main issue is simply that 12-step programs don't have much of a success rate - in fact it's about equal to the # of people who just up and quit on their own.

AA is not part of the recovery industry. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution.

The recovery industry funnels people to AA, but the easiest way to find out about AA is to go to a meeting. There are no contracts to sign; no salesman will call. If you like what you hear, come back! If you don't like what you hear, and you still think you want to quit drinking, go to another meeting.

"in fact it's about equal to the # of people who just up and quit on their own."

There is simply no way that AA doesn't increase your chances for sobriety vs. doing NOTHING other than not using. No way. I'm sorry, you're just incorrect. If the stats appear to bear this out, then it's only because they are counting too many people who are only at AA becasue the court or their rehab program ordered them to go.

Going to AA IS 'up and quitting on your own'. There is no such thing as NOT quitting on your own, as a matter of fact. Unless you are just counting out people who start out their sobriety by some forced means, like rehab or jail. WHich is a contrived statistic if you ask me. Even if you are locked up in jail you can still get drugs if you want, so it is ALWAYS YOU who quits. There is probably no such thing as 'stats' on people who 'quit on their own', because it's pretty much a meaningless concept. Among other reasons, there's no real way to find these people.

Also, I'm very happy for your sobriety. Congratulations on 11+ years! Although you apparently don't go to meetings anymore, do you think you'd have made it all that time without the program, esp. in the beginning? If so, why did you 'keep coming back'?

I don't think there is ANY doubt in anybody's mind (who is in the know about such matters) that attending a support group like AA will INCREASE your chances for a lasting sobriety, vs. just waking up one day and saying 'I'm done' and then not doing anything pro-active (other than not using) to maintain your sobriety. The very act of just putting one foot in front of the other and attending a meeting will help you stay sober, even if you never take a step or get a sponsor. The mere fact that you are focussing an hour of your time on the subject of sobriety and the fact that you are an addict is tremendously helpful in staying sober. Listening to the stories of newcomers and remembering the hell that you used to live through is probably THE single most influential part of the process, followed by the 'making amends' step.

If AA helps keep ONE SINGLE PERSON sober, then it's existence is a good thing. Fact is, hundreds of thousands do. Sure, it's no sure thing that AA will help a given person, but there is NOTHING else with a better chance of keeping you sober than these programs. Period.

does not substitute for real argument.

Where are the statistics that AA works?

If it helps ONE person, but turns off a thousand others from getting some sort of help, then I think it's existence is NOT a good thing.

It's ridiculous to say that AA's success rate is no better than that of spontaneous remission. That's just what a drunk needs to hear! No effort needed, just sit back and wait to be saved by regression to the mean. Well ... maybe not. It doesn't sound like much of a plan to me!

you're free to rebut me with some statistics.

Sounds like you deny the existence of alcoholism. AA addresses that as a real problem. It's not about feeling superior, it's about getting your life back after alcoholism has nearly destroyed it.

Alcoholics Anonymous is a support group. They definately use peer pressure in an attempt to help people stop drinking. Of course, you can always stop going if you don't like it.

Scientology, on the other hand is within the definition of a cult because (for one) they use peer pressure to keep people from leaving. AA is not around to spend all your money or recruit your friends.

Personally, I consider the difference between AA and CO$ to be a large one.

keep people from leaving? Does nobody attempt to bring back in the AA'er who strays?

If someone slips, they are allowed to slip and shown support when they come back, if they do. Sponsors are available to talk to and support a person should they choose to ask for it, but there is no pressure.

You can't. The addictive episode has to run it's course.

it was objection to their steps about recognizing helplessness against addiction and only a higher power can help/save them.

Frankly, I've never given it much though - it certianly seems to have helped a lot of people, and that sounds good to me.

at the risk of inflaming some passions....


12-step groups have a success rate that is about equal to that of "spontaneous remission", that is problem drinkers/users who just up and quit on their own. And that percentage is pretty small.

A lot of white-knuckling and not much quality of life.
You don't like AA? Don't join. Simple.

Could you refer me to the study or studies. I've never seen any. And I note you say problem drinkers. Problem drinkers aren't necessarily alcoholics, which would skew any study to begin with.

... surely ... rests on those who state that a treatment IS effective.

And that's something that no 12-step program has ever been shown to be.

Or did someone have some statistics to offer on that point?

.

I think it's a great program because it allows you to "take what you want and leave the rest". It's also the only group I've ever been in where everyone was trying to be honest. Much of the time we succeeded.

AA does not even attempt to keep people from going back to drinking if that is what they want to do. I don't know your sources for the rate of "spontaneous remission".

AA gives people options. Alcoholics can learn how to stay away from drinking a day at a time, but they decide that as individuals. The Big Book explicitly says that AA does not cure alcoholism. According to Bill Wilson, the best any alcoholic can achieve is sobriety one day at a time.

AA is completely pragmatic. There's no interest in the theory of alcoholism. Whatever works, works.

but you need your brain washed." Anyone is free to keep trying it their own way and if that works that is wonderful. But many alcoholics do need the help of AA and prosper physically, emotionally, and spiritually from working the 12 Steps.

AA is not for everyone and there are secular recovery groups for those turned off by the God fixation and the condescension implicit in the Big Book chapter: "To the Agnostic."

Still, I have seen lives completely turned around via AA, miraculous transformations to behold.

Is this part of AA or any of the other 12 step groups? I've never heard of it. I've known a few people in 12 step programs and they all talk constantly about their higher power as God. I don't know enough about the program, but I had the impression belief in God was manditory for recovery. Could you tell me more?

"Secular Organizations for Sobriety".

I had some dealings with some of the people (e.g. Jim Christopher, the founder) when I was involved with an addict/alcoholic. I'm not in agreement with everything they say/do (frankly, I find organized humanists as obnoxious as organized religionists in many ways), but they're a damned sight better than the cultists.

Here's a link: http://www.secularhumanism.org/sos

Of course, I also had dealings with more 12-steppers during that time than I would ever wish on anyone.

I'm not going to get involved in the discussion here. The depth of my contempt for 12-step groups of any stripe is ... well, deep. They are cults and atrocities. And I find discussion with their adherents and proselytizers to be as fruitless as discussion with those of any other cult.

Anyone who does have addiction problems needs to get proper therapeutic attention: medical, psychological, whatever it takes. They do not need gods or goose-stepping, or to be told that if they won't buy the god or do the goose-stepping they are worthless and hopeless.

And we owe them more than to shuffle them off into the dark corners occupied by these secret societies, away from the scrutiny of science and medicine, and mental health/social services, and wash our hands of them, which is pretty much what we do at present. Imagine if we treated cancer patients or the mentally ill that way.

Apparently many people who refuse to do the god & goosestep routine do find SOS to be a godsend, as it were. I offer the info for the use of anyone whom it might benefit.

.

where it belongs for the lack of treatment options in this country. It's hardly the fault of AA. I'd be damned pleased never to see another court mandated tourist sitting in a meeting, going out to ruin the collective anonymity of the group, afterward.

There needs to be reform in how we percieve addicts, as well as how we treat them. Spending money on education and treatment would be the place to start.

I can't fathom the mentality of the Anti AA mind. I am a believer in 12 step programs - BUT - I also know they don't work for everyone. I am in favor of whatever works for any given person. I know people who chose to become Jehovah's Witnesses as their means of sobriety. I think they're sincerely nuts, but I would never tell them they are wrong for chosing it - or give them statistics on how it will never work.

And I guess I'll just go with mine.

Do you really want to hear the stories? I've got lots. The emotional abuse of vulnerable individuals in treatment programs, the unethical professional practices by 12-steppers working in those programs, the financial fraud by their managers ...

And the power that they wield is all based entirely on their self-annointment as the disciples in the apostolic succession of the one true way, their claim to exclusive knowledge, their completely unproved assertion that "it works".

Yes, absolutely -- we allow them to do this. We give them the money and the victims, and we run. We do not know what to do about addicts and addiction, and they are there to tell us not to worry, they'll look after it. The 12-steppers can tell who does and doesn't want to beat the addiction, and if their programs fail, it isn't their fault.

So we can be assured that it isn't our fault, because what do we know? - as I've seen you ask here.

It is our fault. Addiction is a symptom of many problems, like so many other personal and social problems are. We aren't prepared to address those problems, so we won't take any responsibility or blame for the addict's problems. And the 12-steppers offer us the perfect out: addiction can be cured by them, if the addict wants to be cured. If it doesn't work, it's the addict's fault -- not ours, and certainly not theirs.

This is all the kind of intellectually offensive nonsense that we have abandoned in virtually all other realms, and yet still perpetuate here. It is reminiscent of the wisdom that motivated slum-clearance projects a century ago: people are poor because they are immoral or stupid. And of the wisdom that was at the root of blood-letting for infection and cold baths for mental illness.

"I would never tell them they are wrong for chosing it - or give them statistics on how it will never work."

And oddly enough, I don't see me or anyone else doing that. I see concern -- that people who need and are entitled to the kind of attention and concern and resources that might actually be more likely to benefit them are instead being directed into completely unproved and all too often counter-productive "treatments".

I've seen far too many such people for my taste, and I have quite enough knowledge about mental health issues and treatment to judge the effectiveness and ethics of what they were subjected to; and that's my experience, whether the 12-steppers like it or not. I do know.

.

There's nothing intellectually offensive about saying that AA doesn't work unless people want sobriety. The Big Book is very explicit - AA does not cure alcoholism. The motivation to stay sober has to come from the individuals themselves.

AA is not part of the recovery industry, or anything else. It's altogether unique, away from any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution. AA helps people who want help, not ones who don't.

Treatments for alcoholism have different levels of success, but AA doesn't "treat" alcoholism. It is, by its own definition, a voluntary fellowship of men and women who help each other stay sober. AA never promises to keep people sober if they'd rather get drunk.

Anyone who does have addiction problems needs to get proper therapeutic attention: medical, psychological, whatever it takes. They do not need gods or goose-stepping, or to be told that if they won't buy the god or do the goose-stepping they are worthless and hopeless.

People whose drinking is crowding out the rest of their life need to stop drinking. AA doesn't tell people not to seek professional help - where did you get such an idea? This is certainly not AA's viewpoint.

It's certainly true that people seeking help for alcoholism don't need to be told they are worthless or hopeless. If you associate this with AA, where did you get such a notion? I never heard of such a thing.

I had a thought, could it be in some cases, that people find sobriety (gieve up drugs or alcohol) but then become addicted to AA?

I've had 12 step friends describe my parents as dry drunks. My parents have never been drunk to my knowledge and always used alcohol responsibly. They were and are however major M#$^%@!F*(%ers. Nasty abusive people. I guess it fits :shrug: In their eyes my sober parents behaved no differently from their alcoholic parents.

Wishing every DUer all the best of health, mental and physical. Do what keeps you healthy.

Peace,
Gina

Addiction is the utimate irrational problem. Knowingly destroying one's life-force.
How can rational thinking cure it?

As my sponsor says - "Your best thinking got you here, how can it be trusted to get you out of it"
Graveyard's full of intellectuals.

that kind of thinking is cultish. It implies a number of things that appeal to emotion, but are not demonstrable:

I don't think IRRATIONAL thinking is the answer to our problems

I don't think people's "best thinking" made them alcoholics.

Graveyards are full of idiots, too. It means nothing.

I was turned off heavily by the repeated slogans, the rituals, the whole concept of 'dry drunk" and the feeling of superiority among members.

Again, if it works for you fine, but if somebody feels differently, shouting AA slogans at them is probably not going to win the argument for you.

AA and similar groups present avenues to many people; without these avenues, many would be completely alone during the worst times of their lives. However, what works for one, does not necessarily work for anyone else. Moreover, even Bill Wilson believed that AA was not meant to be a way of life, but rather something of a stepping stone (no pun intended) back to the realities of life on life's terms. Happily celebrating 10 years!

I'm giving my experience. I really don't care whether you like AA or not.
I'm sorry you feel people are 'superior'. I don't.
Dry drunk concept, to me, is that the drug is removed but no other behaviours change. Keep doing the same things you get the same results (slogan).
Limbaugh may be a good one to watch. If he's just the same asshole minus the drugs then I'd say he'll use again.
maybe not.
If he turns into a raving liberal I'd say he's well (not a slogan :))Good luck in your efforts.

I will differ though, on whether AA'ers consider themselves superior to others. I have heard it said a thousand times, a thousand different ways. People express "pity" for 'dry's" because they don't have the 12 steps to help them. I think the term "dry drunk" comes out of a sense of superiority (or maybe fear) - it implies that somebody's sobriety is irrelevant if they're not in a 12-step program. I think that's really unfair and patronizing.

I will differ though, on whether AA'ers consider themselves superior to others. I have heard it said a thousand times, a thousand different ways. People express "pity" for 'dry's" because they don't have the 12 steps to help them. I think the term "dry drunk" comes out of a sense of superiority (or maybe fear) - it implies that somebody's sobriety is irrelevant if they're not in a 12-step program. I think that's really unfair and patronizing.

People have addictions FOR A REASON. If they just quit using, without some sort of other changes in behaviors, they've still GOT those reasons. The reasons they used the mind-altering substances or activities in the first place (which is to cover pain they'd really rather not face) don't simply go away.

I agree with you to a certain extent -- not everyone has to go thru a 12-step program in order to leave their addiction behind, and permanently. But what you're not getting is that all the REST of what goes on in that "addictive system" I wrote about in the previous post (which I think falls under this one in the line-up) stays in place. That DOES put sobriety at risk, and frankly one of those risks is picking up another addiction instead. (And I feel certain that some 12-steppers can go at their 12-step program involvement in an addictive way, too, tho that's usually temporary.)

There are SOME addictions this society approves of heartily, and thus enables, for example: religious addiction (see "When God Becomes a Drug" by Father Leo Booth), money, power, sex, WORK, judgmentalism, maybe even politics, and so on. Actually, anything can become an addiction.

Eloriel

Think of it as jargon, or short-cut language for the concepts about addiction and recovery.

Addictions are a system -- a system of thought (usually rationalization, as in "I don't have a problem," or "I can quit anytime," or "just one more"), and a system of behavior (the addictive substance or activity) and a system of relationships (with oneself, one's family and friends, one's past, one's spirituality or lack thereof, the addictive substance or activity).

Eventually, the addict has to understand some of these concepts. That's where the language you apparently took exception to comes in.

Don't dismiss the concept of dry drunk. George Bush is one, except it looks like he's not so dry anymore.

As for the feeling of superiority, two things. First, I'm wondering if you're mistaking glee and self-satisfaction at being in recovery for real for "superiority." If not, if there really was superiority on the part of some, they must not have gotten to that part of their recovery yet. Most of the 12-steppers I know are very humble -- certainly about their recovery. They may still have character flaws in other areas (don't we all?), but hitting bottom and surviving it to make it in recovery is pretty humbling.

Eloriel

Eloriel, you can tell by how he uses the term dry drunk that he has some idea what it means, but not a lot. He probably heard the term in the context of a discussion about people who get sober outside of AA. Such people are often said to be dry drunk, but that's a judgement best left to the individuals themselves.

I'm pretty sure I know what the term "dry drunk" refers to. I've probably spent more time in meetings than most people here.

but thanks for taking my inventory, as we used to say.

You post your quarrels with AA, calling it a "cult" when you know it's not cult-like at all. This is the sort of thing that newcomers do when they don't really want to stop drinking. Are you drinking now, Dookus? Is that what's bothering you, bunky?

But I did lend support to it. You're free to disagree, but I don't think being obnoxious toward me (bunky?) is doing a great deal of good for your claim that the 12-steps make you a better person.

I've been very respectful of everybody's experiences, both positive and negative, with 12-step programs. Why can't you do the same?

And no, at the moment, I'm not drinking. But it's pretty early in the day here. ;)

on edit: you claim that "I know it isn't cultlike at all". That's incorrect. Obviously, I do feel that way, or I wouldn't have said so. Why do you think you're qualified to know what I believe?

You went to meetings for eleven years and you still think AA is a cult? Have it your way.

Are you drinking?

AA has many of the attributes of a cult. I have discussed some of those reasons here.

As for whether I'm drinking, I'll say first that it's none of your business and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Having said that, I will be kind enough to tell you that after on-going therapy and treatment for depression and anxiety, yes, I now do enjoy some drinks. I don't get drunk. I don't abuse alcohol. It has no control over my life.

I own my own home, have a great relationship with my boyfriend, and enjoy my life utterly.

Now, I fear you'll twist all this to try to fit your preconceived notions about me and use it to attack me instead of my arguments. That will be unfortunate, but I'm afraid it's rather typical of some AA members, mainly the ones I consider to be the cultists.

have it your way, but let me have it have it my way, too, ok?

But is this incessant demand -- "Are you drinking?" -- not pretty much directly contrary to everything that AA claims to do/not do?

Isn't it inconsistent with anonymity? Isn't it evidence of a lack of humility?

Isn't it an attempt to discredit someone based on allegations of alcohol use?

(Isn't it a personal attack?)


AA says it doesn't do things, but AAers sure do do them.

I remember an AA "open meeting" I attended at which one of my partner's halfway house-mates was receiving a one-year thingy. (Six months in jail, and the other six months drinking most of the time, supposedly without the knowledge of the house management.) The assistant director of the house, whom I had spoken with several times in the course of my partner's residence there, and who was one of the meeting organizers, and who knew that I was a rather prominent professional and somewhat of a public figure and was not an alcoholic, walked up to me and asked, in a very loud voice: "So, <my real name>, you stopped drinking yet?" After I got home I finally figured out who the woman in the crowd whom I had recognized and who had obviously recognized me was: an old law school classmate. I hadn't wanted to speak to her out of concern for her privacy; my own privacy had been deliberately violated, and my situation misrepresented to my possible detriment, by the organizer.

Just one of so many tales that could be told ...

But hey, we shoulda just found another meeting where such a lack of ethics on the part of the big shots wouldn't be tolerated ...

.

I agree.

I answered RoonShark's question, though, so as not to be accused of hiding or evading or lying. I'm "scrupulously honest", as it were.

I do, however, find it ironic that in a discussion of whether AA is a cult, I, as a former cult-member, am being attacked by a current member. This is exactly what cultists do. Try leaving Scientology.

I was turned off heavily by the repeated slogans, the rituals, the whole concept of 'dry drunk" and the feeling of superiority among members

You didn't try hard enough to find other meetings. You hung on with an incompatible group, letting your resentments cook until you gave it up. Are you drinking now?

why do you feel you're qualified to judge my experiences? I spent 11 years in AA, going to MANY different meetings, usually in excess of twice a week. That's a lotta meetings.

You simply are not qualified to know about me or my experiences. If you're curious, ask, but it's obnoxious for you to assert these things with no knowledge.

If you want to discuss my personal experiences, ask politely.

You are claiming personal knowledge of AA, based on eleven years of going to meetings. The quality of that experience might be at issue here. Are you mad at AA? Didn't you get what you were looking for?

why do you feel compelled to make judgments about me without knowing anything?

Am I mad at AA? That's the same silly logic used when I was an Abortion Clinic escort by the anti-choice nutcases: Why do you hate God? Why do you hate babies? It's nonsense.

If you are, as far as I can tell, serious about AA, worry about YOUR personal inventory, not mine.

Look: we're going to die anyway.

If we are not "knowingly destroying our life-force" (to be born is to be dying), then I'd assume the alternative must be unknowlingly dstroying our life force. Live your life knowing you're going to die, friend.

Addiction is a choice people make.

Your post here illustrates why the big problem with AA- and why they only have a 5% success rate.

If you don't use what you have available, you're not living your life.

I keep hearing that only one person in twenty "succeeds" in AA. This suggests that the other nineteen go back to the condition that brought them into AA in the first place. I doubt that this is true.

AA doesn't work for people who don't want to get sober. This isn't a gotcha, it's a fact. AA provides support for people who've come to the opinion that they've had enough, and they seek help. People who try sobriety and decide to go back to drinking do so of their own volition.

There's a distinction between alcoholism and dipsomania. Any alcoholic who can stay sober for a single day can "get" AA, there's nothing complicated about it. The AA program is optional - sponsorship, the steps, the belief in a higher power, even the meetings. People who achieve a small amount of sobriety and choose to resume drinking make that choice voluntarily.

because you can never ever graduate.....I happen to have a 24 year old daughter in the cult of AA.....I think it has done her some good yet the replacement family and the whole deal gets on my nerves, AA is not self empowering. It hands the credit for sobriety to the society of AA. This is how I see it.....also it is just a replacement addiction. People can say what they want they hold it together by.....peer pressure that is cult like activity....

yet I would prefer my daughter to attend AA then continue as she was...the only thing is will it ever progress into something more live giving and empowering. My daughter has allways loved cult like activity much to my chagrin. Anyway that is my rant on AA.

As for as cults go sometimes I think Du acts a bit like a cult......certainly there is more openess yet....It can get a little crazy sometimes when one challenges the party line a little too much or someone says they are going to leave the country or someone says a candidate sucks..........cultish behavior ensues once again to my chagrin.

After I quit drinking, I went to a meeting, read 'the Book', along with a lot of other stuff, etc. ... ultimately the one irrefutable reason for me to not do the AA path, was, I didn't wan't to spend the rest of my life obsessing about alcohol.

The first few years she may be very dependent on her group. But sooner or later, she will grow to a point that she recognizes her respnsibility to newcomers. Then she'll start to gain more confidence and that will carry over to her gaining more independence outside of the group.

There can be some who will make someone feel 'bad' for missing a meeting or wanting to experience more in their life. If she's still influenced by that after a few years, I wouldn't think that would be so good. There are people in A.A. who will encourage her to live a complete and full life, and those are the kinds of people I hope she seeks out. Unfortunately, because they are leading complete and full lives, they're not at every single meeting and a little tougher to find.

No matter what though, like you say, this is a heck of alot better than what she had before!!

addicts never stop being addicts - so of course they can't "graduate."
Diabetics don't ever stop being diabetics either, but you wouldn't accuse them of being in an insulin cult.

Would you call a peer support group for grief and loss a cult? Would you call a support group for cancer patients a cult?

AA is peer support for people who have the disease of alcoholism/addiction. No matter how well intended the other people in our lives are - the only people that truly understand that particular issue are the ones who have it. Just like cancer patients understand each other.

AA is also fluid and changing. As your daughter progresses in her recovery, her relationship with AA will grow and change. It would be nice for your daughter if you supported her recovery instead of belittling her choices.

This all comes down to the strength weakness view of alcoholics. There are plenty of people who still believe addiction is a moral weakness, and it can be cured by being good or strong.

Comparing alcoholics to diabetics is disingenous at best. Diabetics do not have a ritual of 12 or any number of steps to complete; diabetics do not hand over their will to a 'higher power.'

There is a cult-like aspect to support groups for life-threatening diseases; see Barbara Erhenreich's Welcome To Cancerland (Harper's) for a peek into that groupthink and the hostility expressed against those who do not follow it.

AA is exchanging one addiction for an admittedly less harmful one, but an addiction none the less.

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no, certainly not :eyes:

I'm asking an honest question. There are a whole lot of folks posting here who don't have personal knowlege of the subject. In fact, they're being quite contemptuous of something they know little about.

Some of the objections to AA have no foundation in fact. For instance, the term "dry drunk" doesn't express contempt for people who get sober outside AA. It refers to a mental condition that alcoholics can easily slip into, especially if they stop going to meetings.

It's possible that some DU'ers posting here are offended at the suggestion that they don't understand alcoholism. They think their uninformed opinions are just as valuable as those who've struggled with recovery issues. And they get annoyed at being told they don't know what they are talking about.

and if you are not willing to accept those premises, you are either accused of not knowing anything about it, because you 'haven't been through it', or you are accused of being a drunk :eyes:

When the "proof" that AA is a religious cult is that the 12 steps refer to God, I do not consider that an informed opinion. The steps are not mandatory. Lots of people who have never bothered with the steps have gotten sober and stayed sober for many years.

AA membership reflects the world as a whole. Some members make unsophisticated claims about AA that they genuinely believe, but don't hold up to analysis. This doesn't reflect badly on AA, because there are just as many sophisticated people in AA who don't promise more than AA usually delivers.

But let's not minimize what AA delivers - people regain what drinking took away from them. AA is not about great insights into spiritual life; it's about lives ruined by drinking, and getting them back. For most people, that's a huge accomplishment.

the whole idea of addiction needs to be reevaluated.the using of some substance to avoid various feeling and experiences needs to be acknowledge and explored this goes of course for everyone not just addicts. I see you adhere to the idea once an addict allways an addict hence AA then is perfect!

YOur diabetic analogy holds little water . I don't believe they are comparable.

\ I resent your comments regarding my daughter. who said I belittled her choices? YOu.....I have praised her for her accomplishments......she has remained sober. I give the power to her.

I dont' believe addiction is a moral weakness......a human condition yes.....as long as it doesn't hurt us the behavior we do seems to go unnoticed......but when alas it makes us messy it becomes an issue......I mean how many people complain over the hours people watch TV? or drink coffee or eat so much or go the gym.......?

So therefor I have argument with the idea that some addictions are more life giving then others...... TV is OK but alcohol is not. Granted TV is not as messy but is much the same in its paradigm.

robbing people of authenticness.

Surely life is hard and full of moments that we are not in control of and that is out plight. I have a daughter and I love her and her sponser is more important than I am.....leaving our connection which is good. second to the addiction monitor. I think it sucks.

you believe substance abuse addiction is curable than? Will your daughter be able to drink moderately in a few more weeks?

Boy oh boy - you criticize my comparing the disease of addiction to diabetes and then you go on to compare it to television. When was the last time someone died of television poisoning, or was arrested for driving under tv influence?

Robbing people of authenticness? Aside from the wretched grammar, what does that mean?

choice becomes the group...it's a better choice unless you are the family or spouse of the AA member. The group does god work overall.

Alcoholics tend to get involved in co-dependent relationships. As a rule, the spouse of the alcoholic is just as messed up as the alcoholic is. I know I sure was. I was quite the little enabler and I certainly made matters worse. Al Anon was the best thing that ever happened to me. I don't go to the meetings anymore, but I still use all the tools I learned and it did change my life for the better. I didn't do all the steps, and took only what I liked. These programs are what you make them. You don't have to do all the steps or embrace all the ideas, but there's a lot of wisdom in those meetings that you can apply to not only alcoholism and addiction, but to every aspect of your life.

Alot of people get sober there. It is much easier to stay sober than it is to get sober, so putting people on the path to sobriety is a good thing. Alcoholics Anonymous is an introduction or reintroduction to a power greater than yourself. According to the text alcoholics have a daily reprieve contingent upon their spiritual condition.

In my opinion the twelve steps and especially the twelve traditions of the program were divinely inspired. Believing that God works through others. Unfortunately they are not practiced by the majority of the members. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees. However there are groups and clicks in every AA community, that do behave cult-like, and are hypocrites. I have watched newer members taken advantage of, or ridiculed, or castigated for relapse. I have observed back-biting, gossip, and behavior typical of high schoolers. I have witnessed forth step inventories revealed to group members, and evil mean-spirited "old-timers" drive newcomers away. There is an unpublished hierarchy in each regional group, contrary to the traditions.

I thank the program of Alcoholics Anonymous for getting me sober, and introducing me to a God that I can turn to. I also thank God for my low bottom. Staying sober today is a choice for me. However, I am like alot of people who came, got sober, and moved on.

Alcoholics Anonymous is an introduction or reintroduction to a power greater than yourself. According to the text alcoholics have a daily reprieve contingent upon their spiritual condition.


This, is , essentially a religious viewpoint- that there is, in fact a "power greather than yourself." To many religous viewpoints (not just an atheist naturalist one), this position, is malarky. (E.g., as a Budddhist, there is no "self" that is fundamentally separate from "other.")

There CANNOT be a mandated requirement by the government to attend these meetings, precisely because, as the courts have rightly found, that despite the program-speak, these programs are religious in nature.

In my opinion the twelve steps and especially the twelve traditions of the program were divinely inspired.

And I think they were the results of one guy's "conversion experience."

There's LOTS of ways to have conversion experiences- and they don't even need to be religous ones. You can have a conversion experience from cultivating a deep understanding of Godel's Theorem.

BTW, I would submit that the reason it's NOT "divinely inspired" is precisely because of the cultiness and hypocrisy. After all, if God could tap Bill Wilson on the shoulder and say "I have this divine plan for you..." why wouldn't that deity have seen fit to make it so that the cultiness, hypocrisy, and groupthink were minimized?

Hell, all that deity would have to do is to check out the political thought of man to figure out how to keeep cults in check!

"There CANNOT be a mandated requirement by the government to attend these meetings, precisely because, as the courts have rightly found, that despite the program-speak, these programs are religious in nature."

This was how I first came in contact with Jim Christopher of SOS (Secular Organizations for Sobriety) back in about 1988, while living with an addict/alcoholic.

The Globe and Mail had reprinted a Los Angeles Times article about a challenge to court-mandated AA attendance, on precisely that basis. I understand that it is now fairly widely accepted in the US that court-mandated AA attendance is a violation of religious freedom, and that people subject to orders to seek therapy must be offered alternatives.

Again, for your info: http://www.secularhumanism.org/sos/

Being in Canada with fewer options, and having been unable to find any program in the US to pack the addict/alcoholic I was living with off to (he was a USAmerican), I contacted Jim Christopher again a couple of years later, and he recommended finding a psychologist who applied Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy practices.

Eloriel mentioned rationalization, and that certainly is one of the tricks of addiction and addicts, and one of the things that Ellis addresses. But none of this is anything that amateurs, all of whom bring their own agendas and personal problems to the table (or meeting), not to mention vast ignorance both of the individuals in question and of the theory and practice of psychology, are qualified or entitled to deal with. Addicts are no less in need of and entitled to professional assistance than anyone with any other physical or mental illness, or psychological or social problem.

12-step organizations have cornered the market on addiction treatment in North America, to the exclusion of professionals. They have persuaded governments, and even much of the medical / mental health / social services profession, that they have some magical bag of tricks for treating addicts that only they understand and can bring to bear on the problem.

I say "magical", because there is simply no empirical evidence that there bag of tricks works -- a problem they get around by explaining all their failures as people who just "didn't want" to get sober ... who hadn't hit that mythical "rock bottom" yet. (You only know it when you hit it ... and if you don't turn around, then you just haven't hit it yet. Talk about yer self-fulfilling prophecies, yer untestable hypotheses ...)

And yet we hand people over to them, and hand them the money to do what they want with them. Oh yeah, AA doesn't take money. But all the corporations and individuals in the 12-step treatment industry, the 28-day programs where insurance companies and HMOs send people, the less cushy places where social services pay the bills, they take lots of it. It's a very profitable business, and there is virtually no accountability.

I said I wasn't gonna do it, and I did. Oh well. ;)

Addiction is a complex problem, with a multiplicity of causes. 12-step programs do nothing to address the negative developmental or economic or sociological contributors to an individual's addiction -- and they certainly do nothing to address the use/abuse of, and addiction to, alcohol and drugs as a social and political phenomenon and to bring those social and political causations of the phenomenon into the public discourse.

12-step programs address addiction as a personal failing, and addicts as incompetent individuals who at the same time are solely responsible for their failure. And this is neither intellectually nor morally defensible, in this century.

.

are talking about. For the record. Many, many, many treatment programs are not 12 step programs. The one I went to, for instance, which is one of only three in my area, was what is called relapse reduction. We were taught strategies to deal with relapses before they happened. Of the 75 hours (15 hours per week for 5 weeks) I spent in that program precisely 1 hour was about AA. Of the other two programs in my area one is twelve step and the other is relapse reduction (that is a 2 to 1 ratio if you are counting). It is absurd to say that even a majority of treatment centers are 12 step programs. There is a word for what you put in your post and it is ignorant. You are utterly ignorant of what treatment centers here do.

As to the fact that AA doesn't get involved with public issues, well duh. Sorry, but people, even those whose experience is similar often have different viewpoints. AA couldn't possibly speak with one voice about the economic and other problems of alcoholism. That is for each member to decide what to or not to do. Many, many, many of those oh so evil twelve steppers work their asses off helping people in jails, treatment centers, and the community at large with precisely those things. Again, something you chose to be willfully ignorant of.

Finally, no one in AA claims that it works for everyone of that all failures are the fault of only that person. AA can't make people do things they have to do them themselves. But we do count them as not making it and do not ignore them when we count people suceeding.

... and if I felt like bothering to get past your incessant and quite amazing insults, I might try to reply.

"You are utterly ignorant of what treatment centers here do."

And you're a loudmouth with a chip on your shoulder. We even now?

"As to the fact that AA doesn't get involved with public issues, well duh."

I don't have a clue what, in my post, you're referring to.

"Finally, no one in AA claims that it works for everyone of that all failures are the fault of only that person."

And if that ain't exactly the attitude I've been referring to.

Fuck them; they're just no damned good. And "we" sure as hell aren't going to let them make us look bad. AA NEVER FAILS.

Keep on stepping.

.

I will take my last thing first. I said No AA person says . . . That means that they aren't saying it.

My first point was that you had made the claim that all treatment centers in the US (you actually used North America) are 12 step based. Not only is your claim false the majority in the US at least, are relapse prevention not 12 step based. The existence of the program I went to was sufficient to disprove your false claim but again not only is your claim false it is closer to the opposite being true.

The middle comment was in reference to the last part of your post. You claim AA doesn't treat the economic problems etc of alcoholism. I don't dispute the idea that they don't as a body but individually members do.

You can have a conversion experience from cultivating a deep understanding of Godel's Theorem

If Godel's Theorem helps drunks stay sober a day at a time, don't be surprised if people in AA embrace it as part of the program. AA doesn't take sides in controversies, especially those that bear on the nature of alcoholism itself. If mountaintop meditation were effective, groups of AA members would book passage to Tibet.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. Nobody has to believe in God or the steps or any of it. It's entirely voluntary, all of it.

In the cult of AA, we warn about "contempt prior to investigation."
You ought to try it.

AA isn't for everyone. Only for those who want it.

I drank/drugged for 20 years. I woke up every day for the last 10 telling myself I wasn't going to drink that day. Every night I was drunk. By the time I stopped, I had alienated everyone who loved me.

AA changed my life. I started to drink at age 14. All I learned about socialization, I learned while drunk or high. I had to relearn how to socialize all over again, without substances, at age 34. It was painful. I hooked up with some AA members who were (still are) a lot of fun. We skiied, went to movies, went out for dinner, went to parties - and had a blast. I learned how to have fun again, thanks to them.

I had a lot of shit to work through. Twenty years of bad behavior, 20 years of doing lousy, mean stuff to people. 15 years of screwing up my child. My sponsor helped me through a lot of rough times in dealing with all that. She was like a guide that kept me from getting lost in the woods.

The recovery program changed my life. Today, I am the person I always wanted to be. I learned the building blocks there. I go to at least a meeting a week. I don't quote chapter and verse from the big book. I am not an AA Nazi, by any means. I never had a sponsor who demanded I call every morning at 6 am - nor would I have done it. I only sponsor one person, and probably not very well. Somehow, she stays sober.

AA helped me build the foundation for who and what I am. I ran for office in 2002. I could never have done that without all of the work I have done in recovery.

I can't quote Bill Wilson. I've never been to his house. I do know that I can't drink in safety. I also know that I am responsible to extend a helping hand to another.

AA is a microcosm of society. You will find assholes. Just like real life. You will find regular joes. Just like real life. You will also find people whom you want to be your very best friends. Some of us are pious, some irreverant. Some are sicker than others.

It's also been my experience that the people who hate AA the most are the ones who could most benefit from it. And before that marks me as superior - I see it in my work with DUI offenders, many of whom have alcohol problems.

Thanks. Great "testimony." Wise words.

Eloriel

"It's also been my experience that the people who hate AA the most are the ones who could most benefit from it. And before that marks me as superior - I see it in my work with DUI offenders, many of whom have alcohol problems."

I guess you used the example of 'DUI offenders' because you thought that would be a slam-dunk example of people you actually are superior to.

:puke:

Feanorcurufinwe? Why so vituperative toward someone you don't even know, just because they have a different point of view? There is absolutely no excuse for your rudeness.

There's an underlying hostility to AA here that seems quite unwarranted. AA is a program of attraction, not promotion. It's not tax-funded and it doesn't stick its nose into anybody's business. AA is entirely voluntary. People who think they might have a drinking problem are welcome to attend any open meeting, and they can walk right out if they don't like what they hear.

This talk about AA being a cult is absurd. People who are recovering from the same life-threatening condition do bond with one another, but that bond doesn't turn them into zombies. Many AA people do indeed stop going to meetings. That doesn't make AA ineffective. If they got what they were looking for, they've succeeded.

Leave altogether if you want, nobody is forcing anybody to stay in A.A. It definitely is not a cult.

But every alcoholic needs a program of recovery. The only way an alcoholic can continue to use the way he does is to acquire a variety of mental and emotional defense mechanisms. Some have been picked up through their dysfunctional family systems or are just normal defects we all have. The Twelve Steps helps an alcoholic to confront and deal with these so that it isn't so easy to justify picking up a drink. A dry drunk is when the alcoholic picks up all these old behaviors again and will eventually end up drunk because of them. It is real. It can be applied to any disorder from eating to sexual deviance. Old behaviors come before the actual unwanted action.

Fear may bring people into A.A. and keep them there for a while, but eventually only a true spiritual experience will change them so they want to stay and carry the message.

Try it for 30 days, if you don't like it, we'd be happy to refund your misery.

How is that handled in AA?

AA is not a religious group. There are some people who become quite religious, there are others who become connected with a spiritual power. And then there are the heathens. I fall into the heathen category, and it's never been a problem for me.

What people don't seem to understand is that within the very loose framework of AA there is a great deal of freedom and acceptance. This isn't a bunch of uniformed brownshirts goosestepping in 12 step formation. We are all free to work our program our way, to leave at any time, to come back at any time - and in any condition.

Why oh why do you want to not own that word?

Religious is not a bad word.

AA has a theology- it may be a pretty lose theology, but it's there: you have a "power greater than yourself."

Many AA groups have prayers, too.

Just own the word.

because it isn't true. AA is not a religious organization.

It seems likely that your bitterness about AA comes from either forced attendence, or inability to make it work for you. Many people use the supposed "religious" nature of the program as a way to avoid AA as a recovery program.

A lot of people don't want to change. They don't want to stop drinking, they don't want to change their lifestyle, they don't want to stop lying, and stealing. They don't want to take responsibility for their actions while drinking - and they don't want to work on being decent, honest people. I can't say as I blame them. It is a lot of work. The examined life can be hell. Most people are too damned lazy to do the work of uncovering the underlying causes of their alcoholism. We want the quick fix in this life, the band aid solution. We don't want to have to dig and probe into the nasty spots in our psyche.

I understand that.

I was unable to go with the band aid. I needed to dig and probe, and cauterize old wounds. I had to look at underlying causes. I had to own every single shitty deed, and nasty phrase I ever uttered. (at least the ones I remember) I had to own my stuff, and clean house.

Many groups do have prayers. You can participate or not, as you wish. I have chosen to participate, while modifying the prayer to suit myself. I refuse to be hypocritical - I don't believe in an old white guy God. It isn't a problem. I am accepted. My beliefs are accepted, if not understood.

There are many things more powerful than me. I began to get well when I finally accepted the simple fact that the universe did not revolve around this self-centered alcoholic.

a lot of atheists don't think it's "just fine". Belief in a higher power that can and does affect your day-to-day life when you pray is very hard to reconcile with real atheism. I do not believe a doorstop can possibly be a higher power.

What I have been told repeatedly is it is a higher power OF MY UNDERSTANDING. I get to choose. Not you, not Jerry Falwell, not the Pope. It is a matter of individual choice. No one is coming by with an AA report card to make sure my spiritual beliefs are correct. That also means my lack of beliefs are my choice, as well.

as far as a "higher power" that could be anyone/thing... a door stop, a sponsor,
a group, a jelly doughnut, electricity, etc... anything outside of yourself
that you feel comfortable putting faith in. The key word being "you".

and that "spiritual awakening"? well, when you stop drinking, your spirit wakes
up, don't it?

AA has helped me to lead my life the way a "normal" person would. I do
things, enjoy things and experience life with a clarity and optimism that drinking
stopped doing for me long ago. I can think of nothing that would happen to me
bad enough that would make me want to drink about it. And should something
that bad happen to me- there are things I can do to aleviate the problem...
like a normal person would.

1. We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction or our addict or alcoholic and that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. We humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. We made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to addicts and, and those who love them and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

There is no way you can follow these steps sincerely if you don't believe in God.

Instead of beating around the bush, why not tell us what your specific issues with AA are?

"Instead of beating around the bush, why not tell us what your specific issues with AA are?"

I mean, unless it was meant as self-parody.

It's the typical AA response to criticism, I'm afraid. The criticism of the 12 steps as impossible for an atheist to follow, which was quite clear and stood alone quite well, just has to be covering up for something else.

And that something else pretty much always ends up being some "character flaw" on the part of the critic. Quite possibly, oddly enough, that s/he is a drunk who just doesn't want to quit drinking. Sez them. Another of those circular thingies they go in.

Trust me. That is my experience.

I give up, Maxanne. An "issue" was stated. What was wrong with taking it at face value and addressing it, instead of suggesting that there was something else going on that the author wasn't owning up to?

.

seeing as how I wasn't talking to you. The poster I was in fact addressing has made some comments, but not been specific. I was looking for specifics. That you choose to find some sort of superiority or put down in there is YOUR problem. Stop reading between unwritten lines.

How nice that you're such an expert. Trust you? Not a chance. I don't trust anyone who tells me that what they know is more important than what I know - that their experience is superior to mine.

Iverglas was exactly right. I wasn't going to bother to respond you because it is obviously pointless, but for you to actually tell him to 'mind his own business' is so egregious I had to say something.

This is a discussion board. Where people are allowed to express their opinions as long as they follow the rules.

If you don't like it, you are free to leave.

A pity you didn't actually read what I said to iverglass, just jerked your knee. It's interesting that my point of view is so disturbing to you that you need to threaten me with RULES and tell me to leave.

:puke:

there is no need, nor excuse for your rudeness. Is all that puking from a hangover, perhaps?

the epitome of politeness.

but it's okay for him to puke all over me, and give unwarranted rude responses?

Your bias is showing.

"Trust you? Not a chance. I don't trust anyone who tells me
that what they know is more important than what I know - that
their experience is superior to mine."

I AM NOT the one who has done that.

I am the one who is being told that MY EXPERIENCE is false or unimportant.

You do not trust me to report on or draw conclusions from MY EXPERIENCE.

And I am not the least bit surprised.

You asserted in an earlier post that you find that the people who hate AA the most are the ones who most need it. (Nooo, you're not "superior".)

I do not need AA. I am not an alcoholic. I am not an addict. I seldom drink at all, and have not used drugs since the acid trips of my undergrad days over 30 years ago. And if I were or did, I WOULD NOT NEED AA. Because I would not need anything or anyone that demanded that I follow a "program" based on BULLSHIT, which is exactly what "higher power" is, and mumbo jumbo, which is exactly what the whole rest of AA's "program" is.

(Anyone who knows anything about public policy and public administration knows that it is inherent in the concept of "program" that there be a defined objective, a course of action adopted to achieve that objective, and methods of evaluating the effectiveness of the course of action for achieving that objective, and determining the extent to which the objective was achieved. Hence I refer to AA's "program".)

I have known people who needed help to deal with drug/alcohol abuse/addiction problems. They did not get it from AA or NA, or any of the individuals or organizations that follow the 12-step precepts, from whom they sought help. The reason they did not get it was not because they did not want it, it was because what they were offered was not help, it was bullshit and mumbo jumbo and the claim that if they did not swallow the bullshit and mumbo jumbo they (a) did not want to stop drinking/using and (b) would be unable to stop drinking/using.

They were people who were among the most vulnerable imaginable -- devoid of any resources of their own, whether financial or emotional or social. They were told they were powerless, and they were powerless. They were powerless to make any demands of their own, to demand that they be treated with respect, that their values be respected, that their dignity be respected, that they be provided with help of the same calibre as anyone with any malady, in a rich society with vast therapeutic resources, is entitled to expect. They were told to take it or leave it, and if they didn't take it they were no longer anyone's concern. They were entitled not to be abandoned by that society to the tender mercies of people wanting to spread their word to them when that word is unproved, offensive claptrap. They were entitled to health care and supportive services, and they didn't get them.

THAT IS MY EXPERIENCE. I have known the addicts and alcoholics, I have known the street workers and intake workers and "counsellors", I have known the social workers responsible for the addicts and alcoholics left in the hands of those "counsellors", I have known (too few) more reputable and ethical and competent medical professionals in the field, I have known people involved with alternative approaches ... and yes, I have appeared on television to discuss these issues, and I have been tapped as a resource by one of those more reputable workers (for a women's group whose organizers unfortunately turned out to be intent on working those fucking steps).

I am not an "expert" in addiction treatment, and I have no idea why you would suggest that I said I was. But THAT IS MY EXPERIENCE, and it is the experience of the many people I have observed who had the problems and were denied the help.

And what I know ABOUT THEM is very definitely "more important" than what you know about them -- because YOU KNOW NOTHING about them. For all I know, you do know about people like them ... I don't know how you could have avoided it. In that case, it would seem that we have reached different conclusions from our experience. I conclude that people in need of help were untreated and mistreated; you may conclude that they just didn't want help.

My conclusion is supported by the facts on which I base it; I can't speak for yours, except to say that my experience with that conclusion has been that it is based on the sort of circular reasoning that would be rejected in any other "program" evaluation.

It all just looks like the rainmaking gig, to me. If the rainmaker doesn't make it rain, it's never the rainmaker's fault, is it?

.

at least have the integrity to do it honestly, and without taking my remarks out of context.

You wrote "You asserted in an earlier post that you find that the people who hate AA the most are the ones who most need it. (Nooo, you're not "superior".)"

As you well know, I was speaking of my work with convicted DUI offenders. Many people who are convicted of DUI have alcohol problems - imagine that. Especially when they become repeat offenders. Many of these people could benefit from AA. I live in an extremely rural area. We have exactly one detox in three counties. We have one treatment center in the same 3 counties. We have an inadequate supply of LADC's - especially in the far northern reaches. AA is one of the only choices for them, if they want some help. So what should they do - DIE instead of turning to AA?

You are doing exactly what you are saying you are not, which is telling me that your experience is more valuable than mine - and on top of that you are accusing me of discounting your superior experience because I am a member of AA. I'm not going to play into your intellectual dishonesty and anger any further.

One thing we agree on - there is inadequate education, treatment, and rehab out there for abusers. Many medical people are woefully uneducated about substance abuse.

I know many alcoholics and addicts - from the guys who live in the woods to the ones on the mansion on the hill. I know treatment professionals who are incredibly wonderful, and some who should be stripped of their degrees, and forced to work at Taco Bell. I know people who are working very hard to get my state legislature to honor the promise they made to fund more treatment with the profits from the state liquor business. I know a judge who is working hard to change the way we sentance addicts in this state. I am a part of the movement to try to improve treatment and education in my state, since I do work in the treatment field.

I don't know a single person in the treatment field who would agree with your angry, embittered point of view. But of course, they don't have your experience.

No where is higher power defined (and that is the term used most often in all but those steps). People have used some very odd things as their higher power. There are also a great many agnostic members of AA (I consider myself one). You just don't know what you are talking about here at all.

and more than I believe in Mother Goose or the Tooth Fairy

who fell like you do and have years under their belts.

If it works for someone, great. If someone believes their lives are better because of it - good for them.

However, if you don't believe in a higher power, can you really come to "believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity"?

If your understanding is that there is no god, can you make "a decision to turn your will and your life over to the care of God as you understood Him"?

If you believe there is no supernatural being with power over the natural world can you sincerely be "entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character"?

Well there are just to many religious aspects of the 12 steps for me to go through all of them like that. But I think you get the idea.


'I knew an atheist who succeeded in AA. He didn't believe in God and initially had a problem with the "Higher Power". He was a mechanic, so he took this old greasy washer and made it his "Higher Power". Corny as that sounds, it worked.'

Just how did 'this old greasy washer' remove the defects of this mechanic's character? Or did he do it for himself?

The only way to find out how, why, or if something works is to try it. Everyone has their own personal journey in AA/Al-Anon/etc., and whether it makes any sense to the detractors is ultimately irrelevant.

Edit: And if it doesn't work for you personally, try something else.

If it works for somebody, good for them. As I also said, if they really don't believe in God, they can't follow the 12 steps and be honest with themselves at the same time. But that's their choice, and I have no problem with it.

I am not saying people shouldn't be allowed to go to AA, or that AA is evil, or that there is something 'wrong' with an atheist who chooses that path, or whatever else you may be inferring from my words. I'm only saying - what I'm saying.

Just how did 'this old greasy washer' remove the defects of this mechanic's character? Or did he do it for himself?

That statement of yours what I was responding to. I admit I didn't read the entire thread context, so I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding because of that. I didn't mean to infer that you were anti-AA.

Specifically I *was* questioning why you, and others on this thread, can't accept something that appears paradoxical to you (atheism and the twelve steps) may make perfect sense to someone else, and leave it at that?

As an agnostic, "God" in the 12 Steps was not a religious entity to me. When I was in Al-Anon, my "higher power" was about the idea that there is a force in the universe that is bigger than li'l old me. The term "Creative Intelligence" (which I believe is directly from the Big Book) expresses it quite well; so does "Spirit of the Universe." And when I said "God" during the recitation of the 12 Steps, I considered it just a convenient short word to express that concept. Kind of a nickname or a label.

I'm not the best example, because I don't go to Al-Anon anymore (way too long of a story - see my post near the bottom), but this was my experience of how Al-Anon worked for me as an agnostic.

Specifically I *was* questioning why you, and others on this thread, can't accept something that appears paradoxical to you (atheism and the twelve steps) may make perfect sense to someone else, and leave it at that?

Well, this is a discussion board, and we are discussing AA. Therefore, I thought was ok to share my opinion. Is there some harm in me expressing my ideas on this subject?

As an agnostic, "God" in the 12 Steps was not a religious entity to me. When I was in Al-Anon, my "higher power" was about the idea that there is a force in the universe that is bigger than li'l old me. The term "Creative Intelligence" (which I believe is directly from the Big Book) expresses it quite well; so does "Spirit of the Universe." And when I said "God" during the recitation of the 12 Steps, I considered it just a convenient short word to express that concept. Kind of a nickname or a label.

Well, you believe in 'a force in the universe that is bigger than li'l old you'. Good for you. I don't. You believe in the "Spirit of the Universe". I don't. You are talking about a nickname or a label for something I don't believe in. It doesn't matter what you label it our how you define it. I don't believe in it. So I don't see how I could sincerely make "a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understood Him" because, for me there is nothing form me to "turn my will and my life over to".

But I will say, AGAIN, I'm not about to judge someone else because they make that choice. It's their life to live. I'm not offended or upset that someone makes that choice and I don't see why you or anyone else should be offended at my opinion.

One of the worst feelings in the world. And I should know – I lived it for ten years between the ages of 25 and 35. On March 16th, 1988 I was beat and started to work the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. I celebrated 15 yrs of continuous sobriety this year. I owe a tremendous debt to AA.

Now, during the ten years of a “belly full of booze and a head full of AA”, do you think I had resentments towards AA? You bet. Cult was one of the kind words I had towards AA. And I was and am not alone. There are vast numbers of people who have one form of resentment or another towards AA. One of the most common is for a newbie to come to a few meetings, receive great support from a large number of people, but then focus on a perceived slight they may have received by one or two other addicts. Another form of resentment is when a court orders someone to attend a certain number of meetings or else, a practice that I’m personally against. The list goes on.

So with such a large pool of resentment against an otherwise voluntary and helpful group, it’s only natural that an a few enterprising ventures would arise to profit from these resentments. The Rational Recovery (RR) website contains two things:

1.) Advertisements for expensive courses, tapes and books
2.) Large helpings of Anti-AA screeds

Here. Go there. Look for yourself: http://www.rational.org

There are other alternatives to AA. While I wouldn’t recommend them, most of the non-profit alternatives are not as nearly anti-AA as RR.

To call AA and 12 step self-help programs "cults" is offensive. If it weren't for Al Anon, I would probably still be living with a violent alcoholic who used to beat the living shit out of me. Al Anon gave me my confidence, emotional strength and courage back. I've seen AA save the lives of MANY people.

My ex husband is an alcoholic who has this negative attitude about AA. He can't keep a girlfriend, his kids want nothing to do with him because he is such a miserable asshole to people. His father and brother didn't even want him to be at his own mother's funeral because of how horribly he behaves. He buys books like "How to make friends for dummies" and is a lonely, miserable person. AA is right. Alcoholics who don't find AA or a program like it to give them the tools they need to overcome their addiction, their life is not only pure hell for themselves, but also for everyone around them. It's a great program that I have seen help so many people.

As I recently once told my wife who was particularly grumpy from lack of sleep one day, "You've got to work on your Mother Theresa imitation."

People who marry addicts are the ones looking to do the rescuing. Once you get involved with Al-Anon you learn to take your hands off other people's problems because they aren't your business. I was one hell of an effective enabler BEFORE Al Anon, there's no denying that. However, as is often said in Al Anon, you can almost always tell an alcoholic by the behavior of their spouse, because the spouse usually acts just as bad, if not worse than the alcoholic does. I can proudly say that I have never been involved in a second co-dependent relationship...but I would have continued along that path of self-destruction had I not found Al Anon. I did get involved with another alcoholic, but this one was sober for 4 years and active in AA when I met him. Wisest, best and most together individual I ever met in my life. In fact, because of what I know about AA, I would get involved with a sober alcoholic involved in AA before I'd get involved with a non-addict simply because of how great the tools are that these people have and how they treat other people. With that, I'm going back to work, my dinner break is over.

In later life, Bill Wilson recorded a speech about the founding of AA

Short version:

Bill found "religion" (recovery), then tried to make a career out of it through "a chain of recovery centers, paid missionaries, and a book". He went to John D. Rockefeller who held a dinner with Bill as the guest of honor. Bill had $$ in his eyes when John D. stood up and said: "This is a wonderful organization, and all the more wonderful because it needs no money". Bill was crest fallen as millions of dollars stood up and walked out of the room.

The rest of the tape is about how Bill learned to listen to the "group conscience" and thus found the Twelve Traditions. Here they are:

1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

5. Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

9. A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

is 'cause he couldn't get Rockefeller to bankroll 'em?

Geez, I'd say it's cult 'cause alot of the "old timers" actually died of drinking...

and has brought recovery to millions world-wide. But, yeah, I shudder to think where I would be today if old John D. opened his wallet and decided to bankroll AA "bigtime".

That's my only point. I've got no real problem with those who want to go to AA. It's only I've known the bad apples, and they're positively dangerous. There needs to be alternatives.

some of the finest people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting in AA. I took the advice of an early friend in AA and "hung out with the winners."

go invent one!

Rational Recovery hasn't really caught on. Moderaton Management - well look what happened there - the founder swore alcoholics could learn to drink in moderation. Now she sits in prison for driving up the wrong side of the highway, drunk, and killing a couple of people. That was a flaming success.

People criticize AA - well good, give us an alternative. I, for one, am sick to death of court ordered tourists coming to AA meetings, then going to the bar and discussing who was at the meeting and what they had to say. AA is a support group for alcoholics. We aren't treatment professionals. Take the fucking tourists out.

The trouble is, AA has been more successful than any other treatment modality. Society is so hung up about the strength/weakness view of alcoholism that no one wants to spend any money on education or treatment of addiction. My state ranks 47th in the nation for spending on treatment - and we have state liquor stores. Ironic, isn't it?

So, all you revilers of AA - go work on something else, and stop blaming the one program that has a tangible success rate.

That, by the way is how most new meetings are formed. A small group of regulars to a meeting will become upset as to how a meeting is run and they'll start another meeting some place else. All they need to do is follow the 12 Traditions (see post #58) and off they go. More often than not they'll grow and soon a small group of regulars will become upset....

of Moderation Management had returned to AA when she had her accident. Just a point of fact.

http://www.historyofaa.com/billw/bigbook.htm

Read this and tell me he is a cult leader...

Bill Wilsons oratory style is like the Big Book- old timey. I gotta say, when I
started reading the book AA it was difficult because (well, my brain was
permeated by residual alcohol) I had to read every sentence twice- to just
understand them. But that proved to be a good thing- it helped me sober up!

Thanks for taking me back.

I would only be echoing many of the other things you have already heard. Count me as one who thinks the program is great and leave it at that.

If Bill Wilson were alive today and started ordering people around, AA people would resist it strenuously. The term fuck off comes very easily to the lips of people who, through heroic effort, have finally been liberated from their addiction. They don't like being crowded and wouldn't hesitate to say so.

Recovery in AA is a very personal thing. AA can indeed be cult-like for the people who want that. But if being part of a cult gives you the hives, nobody will force the issue. There are no dues, fees, or correct ways of doing things in AA. Do what you want, the way you want it. If you drop out, nobody will come after you.

AA is about as uncult-like as you can imagine. Nobody scolds anybody about anything, but people who wish to be scolded can find somebody to scold them. There are such unfortunates; they seem to have been born that way.

" But, as I say, the dickens with all that. I would like to just spin some yarn and they will be a series of yarns which cluster around the preparation of the good old A.A. bible and when I hear that it always makes me shudder because the guys who put it together weren’t a damn bit biblical. I think sometimes some of the drunks have an idea that these old timers went around with almost visible halos and long gowns and they were full of sweetness and light. Oh boy, how inspired they were, oh yes. But wait till I tell you."

....

"We touched on the book. The group conscience consisted of 18 men good and true ... and the good and true men, you could see right away, were dammed skeptical about it all. Almost with one voice, they chorused "let’s keep it simple, this is going to bring money into this thing, this is going to create a professional class. We’ll all be ruined." "Well," I countered, "That’s a pretty good argument. Lots to what you say ... but even within gunshot of this very house, alcoholics are dying like flies. And if this thing doesn’t move any faster than it has in the last three years, it may be another 10 before it gets to the outskirts of Akron. How in God’s name are we going to carry this message to others? We’ve got to take some kind of chance. We can’t keep it so simple it becomes an anarchy and gets complicated. We can’t keep it so simple that it won’t propagate itself, and we’ve got to have a lot of money to do these things." So, exerting myself to the utmost, which was considerable in those days, we finally got a vote in that little meeting and it was a mighty close vote by just a majority of maybe 2 or 3. The meeting said with some reluctance, "Well Bill, if we need a lot of dough, you better go back to New York where there’s plenty of it and you raise it." Well, boy, that was the word that I’d been waiting for. So I scrammed back to the great city and I began to approach some people of means describing this tremendous thing that had happened."


http://www.historyofaa.com/billw/bigbook.htm

This is read before every meeting... "cult"? I think not-

"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

Copyright © by The A.A. Grapevine, Inc."

"AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes."

How about what they do, not just what they say?

Or even ... what they say?

I haven't read every post here, so I don't know whether anyone has actually printed out the 12 steps; I apologize if I'm being redundant.

1. We admitted that we were powerless over our addiction or our addict or alcoholic and that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. We humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. We made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to addicts and, and those who love them and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

If that ain't the blueprint for a cult, I just don't know what is.

Acceptance by the group -- and that is the fundamental tool in the AA kit, "the group" and its approval or disapproval -- is conditional on acceptance of these beliefs.

And no, there is simply no way that a non-theist can "adapt" this credo to his/her own belief system. What it becomes, to anyone who tries, is simply a stumbling block in the road. A constant source of conflict with everything that the individual knows and values ... and a constant threat of defeat, since the individual is told at every turn that his/her sobriety depends on accepting this bullshit, and that failure to stay sober is a failure to want to stay sober, and rejection of this credo is evidence of that failure to want to stay sober ...

Unfortunately, since addicts do have so many well-practised tricks of their own, all that the credo ends up doing in some cases is providing another excuse for pursuing the addiction. If this is the only way to get sober, and the addict rejects it (entirely properly), then bingo, can't get sober.

The fact is that it is NOT the only way of getting sober -- the actual fact is that there is no evidence whatsoever that it has anything at all to do with getting sober. There may be a correlation between attending AA and staying sober in some cases, but there is simply no evidence of a causal relationship. People who decide to get sober and also attend AA meetings sometimes stay sober. Those people probably also eat hamburgers, and we don't attribute their sobriety to eating hamburgers.

Far more people who have attended AA meetings, or been "treated" in 28-day 12-step programs, do not stay sober than stay sober. The empirical evidence would therefore suggest that AA is not an effective treatment for addiction.

Unless, of course, you can define the problem away by saying that all those people just didn't want to stay sober ... and that, in itself, is to acknowledge that 12-step programs are not the reason for the sobriety of those who do stay sober.

.

First you left out a big word that appears right before the 12 steps. These are the 12 SUGGESTED steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. They go on to say after the steps that this is a program of progress not perfection. Cults require you to do things. The only REQUIREMENT for joining AA is a desire to quit drinking. Also, you have to judge sucess in this endeavor comparitively. What is relevant is the sucess rate compared to the alternative treatments where AA has done pretty well over time. I don't dispute that the sucess rate is below half but so is the sucess rate of every program for which honest figures have been provided.

to keep your unwarranted assumptions about others to yourself.

I have other posts in this thread that you might not have bothered to read. I recommend that you do so. If you still have any questions about what I "know something about", feel free to ask.

"These are the 12 SUGGESTED steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. They go on to say after the steps that this is a program of progress not perfection.

As I did say in the very post you responded to, right at the beginning, I often prefer to look at what people do and not just what they say. And I've seen a whole lot of what 12-steppers do.

And that's what I know, and it has turned my stomach on more than one occasion.

The willingness of people who consider themselves "progressive" to swallow this medieval approach to something that is both a serious problem for individuals, with a real etiology (the psychological and physical causes of health problems), and a serious problem for society, also with a real etiology (the economic, political and sociological causes of social problems), just never ceases to amaze me.

Why don't we just go back to casting out demons to cure schizophrenia, and allowing laetrile to be marketed to cure cancer? The success rate would be about the same as the success the 12 steps have achieved in curing the individual and societal disease of addiction. And if the hallucinations and tumours didn't disappear, why then the person just didn't want to get better.

.

hovers around 35% can you provide anything like a citation that shows that driving demons out of schizophrenia is 35% effective? If so I really, really, really, really want to see it. Heck I will settle for 10%. Heck I will be real, real, real, generous I'll take 5%. That would make it 1/7 as effective. Maybe on the planet bizarro where you evidently reside that would be about the same but here on planet earth it isn't.

Last I checked 1935 is not Medieval times. I think those were the 1400's. Maybe I need a planet bizarro history book to go with the planet bizarro medical text you must be using.

As to not looking at the real causes that is precisely what AA does. Again, I don't care what you wrote in this thread but if you actually went to any AA meetings you had to have slept through them. We have to deal with why we can't drink and accept it. That is about as root cause as it gets.

Show me just one treatment program that has anything like the sucess rate AA has make sure it is court ordered and by choice since AA is and then we can talk.

35% rate is off the charts compared to every other citation I've seen. The standard number seems to be about 5% (I've seen as low as 2%), which is roughly about the rate of people quitting entirely on their own. Here's one discussion of it:

http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-effectiveness.html

What *I* find so frustrating is that so little real research is put into this. It's one of the biggest societal and health problems we face, and we don't even TRY to figure out what works and what doesn't. I look for data, and all I get is stuff from within the recovery industry.

What does one count? Where do we get the count? AA doesn't keep a membership roster nor do we count attendence in any systematic way. We do have a system of home groups but it isn't fool proof in that people can and do sign up for more than one and other don't sign up at all. For people who actually stick with it for a reasonable amount of time the sucess rate is much better than the 5% you site. This is not an easy disease to cure, it is actually not even possible to cure, but it can be made a symptom free chronic disease.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

if people stick with it, the rates are higher. That's just self-selecting your pool.

I *DO* believe, however, that it is possible to use the tools of science and research to study what works for addiction and what doesn't.

The FDA would never approve a therapy or treatment that had a success rate as low as 12-step programs.

if it was the only alternative for a fatal disease. Several AIDS drugs were approved with very low sucess rates. As to the other point. I do think that we have to take out people who go to only one or two meetings and then go back out. I would assume you would be suspicious of a study which said a pill didn't work based on people who took one and then quit.

... should any organization that makes claims and gets public money based on those claims not have to substantiate them??

And apart altogether from the issue of money, why should any organization that makes claims and cannot or will not substantiate them expect to have any credibility?

.

and treatment centers do the reasearch and post rates. I have never seen one which didn't have a sucess rate clearly posted. As to what methods they use or don't use I can't say but they clearly do have them. I took his post to mean AA and not treatment centers.

AA doesn't "treat" alcoholism; that term holds out the possibility of a cure. The Big Book says explicitly that there is no cure for alcoholism; the most that can be achieved is a daily reprieve from the unmanageability of chronic drunkenness.

The steps are entirely voluntary. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking, that's all. People who choose to go back to drinking do so of their own volition, and AA doesn't even try to stop them.

I don't have figures to support this but I believe that AA is pretty effective in supporting people who have a desire to stop drinking. In fact I've never met anybody who got drunk without first changing their mind about sobriety. Bill Wilson calls that the subtle insanity that precedes the first drink. But that's what the meetings are about: if you let people in on what's going on in your head, it's likely that you won't be taken by surprise.

BTW, relief from chronic drunkenness is a huge benefit. It's what keeps alcoholics coming back to AA.

"The Big Book says explicitly that there is no cure for alcoholism"

And what was the Big Book's author -- a psychiatrist? a specialist in internal medicine? a sociologist?

Cripes, can you expect me to take this seriously? AA is right because AA says it is right??

If the Big Book for sufferers of chronic ear infections said that there was no cure for chronic ear infections, and my doctor believed it and told me that the best thing I could do go to a lot of meetings, and go check into a 28-day program every couple of years and talk about it if the infection came back, somebody'd be getting some money. And it would be people trying to sell the ideas in that Big Book of chronic ear infections.

Me, I'd rather have pennicillin. Or at least somebody doing the research to discover it, instead of listening to a bunch of amateurs saying there is no cure for chronic ear infections.

There is no "cure" for any disorder that is at least in part a result of environmental influences on an individual's personality. Obviously. But there are some therapies that are more effective than others. And oddly enough, there are actually drug therapies for some "mental" illnesses.

But as long as the credo that addiction is a symptom of "spiritual" problems, and that it cannot be treated, has a stranglehold on the therapeutic community, the effort and money that are needed to research and test potential therapies, whether psychological or medical, isn't gonna be expended.

.

There have been at least two new drugs (just since I have been sober) for the treatment of alcoholism. One is available here the other isn't yet. They have shown some sucess in motivate alcoholics. Just like AA has.

On edit to be precise they are old drugs (one for epilepsy and the other for wieght control) but the use is new.

The Big Book was addressed to problem drinkers looking for a way out. Bill Wilson, its author, considered AA the spiritual approach to managing alcoholism. Because psychotherapy was rapidly expanding in the late 30's, Wilson sought to disavow an AA "cure."

The point here is not whether Bill Wilson was factually correct in that statement. Your post implied that "12-steppers" have falsely offered a cure, but in fact Bill Wilson did not do that. Today, AA is more moderate than Bill Wilson; it takes no position at all on the issue.

There's no foundation for your statement that 12-steppers have betrayed anybody with phony promises. If anything, the Big Book bends over backwards to avoid a misrepresentation.

and a phat doobie would also be nice. Life is to short to be bothered with bullshit. Cheers.

and i mean that from the bottom of my heart, Liberal_Guerilla. I had many great
times drinking and smoking, truth be told. But after 20 years of Bud, Jack and
Herb somewhere in there toward the end it stopped being fun and became a chore
and a neccesity. As Dr. Bob so succunctly put it- "Drinking was a priviledge
that I abused and as a result, lost". Plain and simple. No, I don't envy anyone
who still has the ability to drink normally. One of the promises of AA which has
come to fruition for me is "We will no longer regret the past or wish to shut the
door on it". Drink turned my life into bullshit and I feel just like you do-
"Life is to short to be bothered with bullshit". Cheers, indeed!

ha ha. I would just like to share my own experience.

I do not think AA or other twelve step groups are cults, and I am very grateful for their existence, because they have undoubtedly saved lives, as some very strong people on this thread have attested.

I believe this despite an experience with a SINGLE, LOCAL group which I participated in for about a year (I was in Al-Anon; they also hade AA there). This SPECIFIC group, upon reflection, did have some of the characteristics of a cult. However, when I finally decided to leave for good, I was brave enough to visit other local AA & Al-Anon meetings. In these meetings I found many people who did not like the way that other group did things; in fact there were a lot of ex-members (of that particular group) who had felt like I did.

I think the most important thing about AA & Al-Anon is to try a lot of different meetings, and actually believe in the program slogan "Take what you want and leave the rest." (along with "Keep an open mind") The original group I was in did not believe in doing either of these things -- they actually said "Take what you want and file the rest for future reference", and they considered people who went to other meetings as basically "slipping". (I don't remember them every saying "keep an open mind" -- it was more like "shut up and listen!")

I want to thank the other people in recovery for sharing their stories here. As my dad, a recovering alcoholic for over 20 years, told me -- the most important part of AA is one drunk talking to another drunk. And that's how it works.

(Edit - wanted to add stuff about "keep an open mind")

both from meeting to meeting and from area to area. I have just recently started attending gay AA meetings in a big city by me and those are quite different from the ones here. But people need to find meetings where they are comfortable. Sometimes the automy which is our greatest strength is also a weakness. Meetings which turn into more religious meetings than they should can't be shut down.

And I don't know if I would want AA/Al-Anon to "shut down" meetings of the group I have problems with. Their meetings certainly worked for several of the long-time members -- especially the AAs (Al-Anon had a lot more "defectors" in that group). And I'm glad it worked for them; it just ultimately didn't work for me, so I found other meetings. I no longer attend Al-Anon but if I move to another area I think I would see what sort of meetings they had.

If you have a problem with alcohol, go where you want, think what you want about AA, and good luck. But for me, it works, and I'm not fixing it--and you can call it whatever the fuck you want, but I'm keeping it.

I imagine that AA and NA is about as welcome to the boozers and druggies as The Brady Campaign is to the gun nuts. And if you want endless flame wars, try to defend the Brady Campaign on a political discussion board. Looks like defending AA and NA produces similar results.

Bottom line:

AA works if you work it. It has works for millions world-wide. It ain't going away anytime soon. But I, for one, will be the last one to shove it down peoples throats. If you want to drink or drug - be my guest. If you find help anywhere else, wonderful. But why attack AA? What the hell did AA ever do to you?

12-step programs have a near monopoly in the North American mindset when it comes to treatment of addiction. It also has a huge hold among the multi-billion dollar recovery industry. And yet its efficacy is very questionable.

I think it's a very valid topic for research and discussion.

AA is not part of the recovery industry. It is not allied with any outside enterprise. Your quarrel is with the recovery industry, not with AA.

It doesn't make a dime from any recovery center. Indeed, if you see any money making recovery venture using the AA name, you let me or the Central Office know and someone will get that shut down pronto.

Traditions 6 & 7

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

let us stipulate that I am very familiar with the 12 steps and the 12 traditions.

I was talking about a MINDSET monopoly. I understand that AA does not get the $$ from the recovery industry (and we could have a good discussion about that industry) but my point was that other alternatives are not examined or even considered in most of North America. That's unfortunate, given the dismal success rate of 12-step programs. I think we should devote more time and money to figuring out what DOES work, what DOESN'T work and do so free of any preconceived notions.

AA is based on an English christian organization called the Oxford Group. In the 21st Century, I would hope that we could move past supernatural treatments for legitimate problems.

prior to AA, the dismal statistics you keep citing, were MUCH worse. You could count on one hand the number of end stage alchoholics that recovered and went on to 10, 20, 30, or more years of continuous, productive sobriety. But I agree, even in today's enlightened times odds of recovering are about 1-in-10. But here's the hopeful part: to the largest extent you control the odds. As we say: "Rarely has a person failed who has thoughly followed our path...."

The success rates of 12-step programs are not "dismal", they work very well. They just don't work for unmotivated people, that's all. The chemist who discovers motivation-in-a-pill will become a millionaire overnight.

The "recovery industry" deals with humanity as a whole. AA, which is not part of the recovery industry, succeeds with alcoholics who want to stop drinking. AA would not be opposed to motivation-in-a-pill, but it hasn't arrived yet. Till then, pick and choose which meetings are cosmopolitan enough for your tastes. It's your life; make your own decisions.

It seems the success rate is about 5%. If you have other statistics, go ahead and bring them forward. I'm open-minded about it.

I maintain merely that OTHER, non-supernatural methods of treatment are worthy of consideration and research.

the fault of AA that no one else has bothered to examine other alternatives. You might as well blame gasoline for the fact that no one has bothered to find an alternative fuel.

The implication that AA is suggesting supernatural treatment is dishonest, Dookus. There is plenty to discuss without making false claims.

We gave up on covering people with leeches a few years ago. :eyes:

2.) Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3.) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the careof God as we understood Him.5.) Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6.) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7.) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings

11.) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12.) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.


Every one of those requires a belief in the supernatural. I don't even see how you can deny it, much less call me dishonest for pointing it out.

The God stuff isn't mandatory. People who don't feel comfortable with it don't have to bother with it. There are meetings to accommodate every taste, including agnostic meetings. AA is not monolithic. There are gay meetings, meetings for the disabled, meetings just for women, meetings just for young people, meetings for special occupational groups (like airplane pilots, lawyers and doctors), meetings for the deaf, meetings for foreign language speakers, etc.

AA is completely voluntary. There's only one rule: if you show up drunk - which is not discouraged, by the way - you can't make noise and disrupt the meeting.

AA has a number of unofficial traditions like getting a mentor (called a "sponsor"), joining a home group, going to ninety meetings in the first ninety days, etc. But if you don't want to do any of these things, nobody forces you. You come and go as you please and nobody ever discourages you. You can work the steps as you see fit, or you can totally ignore them.

I won't say a majority in the nation but a clear majority of treatment centers around here are relapse reduction and not twelve step.

AA is blamed for the failure of others to develop treamtment programs. That makes no sense at all.

Please, try to read what I actually write.

been quite clear in where you're placing the blame. You aren't comfortable with it being recognized for what it is. You blame AA, not only for failing to provide treatment, but for being all the treatment there is. Neither is true.

Poor Dookus has given up an eleven yr. sobriety date.

All the bad mouthing of AA in the world won't get that date back.

Please save me your fake pity.

And as I said in that post, my personal experience is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I knew, though, posting it would bring such responses.

And don't feel sorry for me. I'm doing very well, thank you.

Oh, and what were were saying earlier about the the "superiority" of AA'ers? Hrmm...

On edit:

Oh, and it was more than 11 years without drinking. It was 11 years in AA. I left largely because of people like you, and I'm much happier for it.

You're really reading much more into what I say than what's there. There are a few separate mini-discussions going on here.

1) is AA a cult
2) is AA effective
3) what are the other options?

I've been discussing all of those. I have NOT blamed AA for not providing scientific research into the treatment of addiction. I said it's unfortunate that more research doesn't exist.

I also never asserted that AA is the only treatment there is. I have been very careful in my wording. It is, however, by far the most prominent treatment method in North America, often to the exclusion of others. Again, I didn't blame AA for this - I blame the courts, the "recovery" industry, and lazy media.

for a clear and polite response.

Whilst AA may emply what some might consider 'mind-tricks' to retain members, the reality is that getting sober requires tricking one's mind in various ways. I have been to innumerable meetings and can say without question that the purpose of AA is help people stay sober. Period . To suggest that there are ulteriour or 'profit' motives is asinine. When they say that you have to 'keep coming back' it is because the stats bear out the notion that people who do, generally remain sober. The idea that you may somehow be punished for leaving, or that they are going to ask you to renounce your earthly possessions like a real 'cult' is likewise silly.

This article really pisses me off because there are people out there suffering with the disease that may choose not to check out AA because this article has them believing that they are somehow getting involved in a cult. BULLSHIT. Utter total complete nonsense. This article could literally cost some people their lives. Fuck whoever wrote this (and the horse they rode in on, too)!

from people's suffering, go to the RR website:

http://www.rational.org

The Rational Recovery (RR) website contains two things:

1.) Advertisements for expensive courses, tapes and books
2.) Large helpings of Anti-AA screeds

There are other alternatives to AA. While I wouldn’t recommend them, most of the non-profit alternatives are not as nearly anti-AA as RR.

... and leaving like this :eyes:

Here's a quote from the home page:
There are no links out of the Rational Recovery Web Center, except for some technical links; you have reached the end of the road.

How enchanting. Which program was a cult again?

I don't think anybody here claimed AA was tryihng to enrich anybody. That doesn't mean it can't be a cult.

Second, this is a discussion of 12-step programs, not RR.

Third, what does that quote have to do with ANY cult?

http://www.rational.org/Cult.html

So it's RR that's throwing the mud. I say examining the mud-slinger is very much in play.

For your first and second answers. Geez, if I can't bash RR, what kind of AA flamefest is this? ;)

As for the third, the idea of RR being a "dead end" on the web just amuses me -- it reeks of closed-mindedness, which could be interpreted as cultic. That was what I was suggesting, although I don't actually think that RR is a cult. I do think it's headed by a man obsessed with self-promotion and grinding his super-sized axe.

Edit: Fourth, AA is not a cult. I say this despite my own negative experience with one group:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=515443&mesg_id=518045&page=

To quote Mojo Nixon.

So just lay off them drugs and the hard liquor and you'll be A-OK.

I'm not sure about wine. I guess wine is ok if you are a 49ers fan.

fess up.

I'm here at detox with a tube up my ass.

Read some about them "dry drunks". Sounds ok with me, and I'm all for it. If I can get drunk without even drinking, that must be the best invention in the whole US. Would save me a hell of alot of money too. $6.99/12-pack x 365 days/year = one hell of a lot of money.

read like your post. Always a strange meeting when that story came up in the Big Book discussion group. Blank stares galore.

of beer...

ok, now that is taken....

my father drank a large portion of alcohol, he would drink two or three 40 oz's when he woke up and go from there.... make a long story short... my mother went to her fathers and my dad couldn't handle it... he went to aa and gave up alcohol...

my stepdaughter is in aa... my dad was in aa for about two years and then he stopped... my stepdaughter is making aa a part of her life and my father took it as it was and gave it up and hasn't had a drip in 20 some years... however my dad was a dad... my stepdaughter is not a mom and does not have a life (she does not live, there is no living) outside of aa.....

does not having a bearing on me....

o-well.... to each his own, i think i'll call my sponser for sex addicts anonymous....

just kidding... about the sex addicts... hah! hah! hah!

as a thread approaches 200 posts, it's just too unwieldy to keep up with it.

thanks for the fun conversation - and do whatever works for you, but respect others.

Maybe we can discuss it in a new thread some day.