You must read this Article

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/10/11_flag.html

If you are like me and looking for information or just to see what everyone is up to, you probably skip right over the articles and essays on the home page.
Please go back and read this one at least.

who was filming an art project , late at night, at the tail end of a fire in downtown Kalamazoo..the cops took his film, and have not returned it, and he was questioned for an hour.
Oh well, police state. First thing destroyed, art and creativity.

They still have not returned the film? WTF is going on and when are we going to get enough people to care?

I work across the street from a sewage treatment plant. The recently pulled down the 6' barbed wire fence and replaced with an 10' concertina wire topped fence. Water towers now have similar fences and 24 hour security monitoring.

All part of the wonderful new world brought to you by the Patriot act and Homeland Security.

... every winger's fantasy. Remember how crazy Mappelthorpe's photos and Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ" made them?

Digital cameras with 801.54g wireless transmission.

Secondary, but much better, fix: A ferocious civil-liberties lawyer.

--bkl

This story brought out the most extreme mixed feelings in me.

Freedom of expression is a deeply cherished value for me and I would join an activist movement to protect it.

Here's the inevitable "however:"

I live in NYC and my office window looks across at a major terrorist target that is 300 feet away. There are days when the building goes on high alert without any concurrent media publicity. Its steel shutters go down, NYC cops suddenly appear to guard it and, when the alert is very high, the cops stop trucks, look inside and read their manifests.

So when people on this board say I have more of a chance of being struck by lightning than killed in a terror attack I tend to believe they are living in a sheltered environment.

At the same time a friend and I have personally seen men (unfortunately all of them Middle Eastern; I wish this was not the case) videotaping certain key landmark areas in NY. In my case I have seen two such instances of videotaping. In hers it was two or three instances.

Since this was in the open for everybody to see I believe there were three possible scenarios: 1) The totally innocent one; 2) They were "scouting," and, 3) It was some sort of a mind game.

The story told by the DU poster is a disturbing one. The Patriot Act is frightening to me. I hope that somebody like Wesley Clark or Howard Dean has a chance to shine daylight into it.

But if you believe your security is at stake where do you draw the line?

Please, everybody, take this as a heartfelt question and a sincere post.

I think that the reason that you notice the arab men taking video tape is because they are arab. I bet lots of people folm those same landmarks and you just don't notice. I am not calling you racist... but you might want to examine your fears and misconceptions.

For using the word "landmarks." Both these sites are politically charged venues but they weren't tourist "landmarks." I certainly have not seen anybody else videotaping them. In my friend's case she saw two different Middle Eastern taxicab drivers hanging out of their car windows, videotaping consulates and the nearby houses where diplomats live.

"You might want to examine your fears and misconceptions."

I do it all the time. I genuinely had hoped for a reasonable discussion. The thought that the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security is now being used to track Texas legislators and to investigate routine crimes scares me to death. I loved what Wesley Clark said about bringing bookmobiles with copies of the Patriot Act into every town in the U.S. I am alarmed that there is so little national discourse on the subject. We should be holding debates and informational sessions on the implications of this law every day of the week.

How do we square our need to protect ourselves with our most deeply held values?

I hope there are some reasonable people on this board who are willing to discuss this issue without patronizing comments and guilt-mongering. This subject is just too important.

diplomatic corps, that may (or may not) cast a slightly different hue. Why don't you tell us specifically which consulates these are? It isn't as if they are secret.

I will retire from this thread.

It's obvious that if I want to discuss this I should do it in a more serious, supportive forum.

Nobody has insulted you in the slightest. Seems you need to get a little thicker skin.
:eyes:

a couple of questions. How do you know these people were "middle eastern"? Did you hear them speaking Arabic, Farsi, etc? Were they wearing pocket badges saying "I am from the Middle East"?

And did you consider the very real possibility they were simply tourists? Taking pictures is something tourists have been known to do, unless they are Japanese in which case they ALL do. (That's a little joke originally related to me by one of my very dear Japanese friends on one of my visits there)

But your concern about "key landmarks" is a little puzzling...it seemss that those would obviously be a subject for photography...who would waste film or pixels on a shirt factory (if there are any left...)?

When I go to NYC or Washington, I take pictures of "landmarks", not barber shops. The Statue of Liberty is interesting, a warehouse isn't.
:eyes:

eom

On edit: My friend works in the international community, too.

we must forgo some security.

You can't have it both ways.


I prefer freedom.

I just wonder if we are getting the whole story. I will probably be flamed for saying that, but I really wonder if that author is telling us the entire story. Is there more to the story that we're not being told?

And I can see it unfolding...an artist taking beautiful photos that are deeply meaningful...the reaction of the police and the company representatives...this was one of the better stories I've read lately and really is an ideal platform for a meaningful discussion...I wonder, however, if this is the right venue for this debate, if emotions and ideology will overcome any rational discourse on this subject.

Oh well, I think I'll call some friends and go surf on the ACLU board.

The ironic thing is that dozens of refineries explode every year without any help from "terrorists."

Folks who live near San Francisco Bay Area refineries know all about "shelter in place" orders.

I hear that in Texas and Louisiana they just say something like "Oh, we meant to do that!" whenever a refinery explodes, if by some stupid luck nobody gets killed or maimed.

and was deeply disturbed. Then I wondered how the photos made it into the article. Anybody care to clear that up for me?

questions and respond.
Not passing any judgment, but very curious.

(the gold towers anyway) and had put them on his computer. So it didn't matter if he deleted from his camera.

first time. Thanks for setting this right.

Unless I misread the story, he mentions coming across the tattered flag on his second trip, not the first.

I just assumed that he had taken that particular photo earlier, later, or elsewhere (or photoshopped a similar image) and included it for dramatic effect. Or he managed to save one image. I doubt that there is any sinister motive, and don't have any reason to doubt the basic elements of the story. It's just that the photo made the story a little inconsistent.

Sad story, though.

I've done a ton of photography and you can pretty much expect this sort of thing to happen. You take your chances. Without some sort of permit, or permission, or at least a friendly call ahead of time, especially in the post 9/11 world, I would totally expect this to happen.

This guy just didn't know what he was doing. And he got intimidated. And he volunteered to delete the pictures. They didn't take his camera and they didn't force him to delete anything.

He sounds like a whiny wuss to me.

I mean, if he didn't expect that a place like that would have security cameras around its perimeter ..... and he was undoubtedly driving very slowly, pausing a lot, obviously not just passing through ...... there are security people just sitting on their ass bored out of their minds looking at seagulls on fenceposts ..... then this guy shows up.

What are they supposed to do? They're doing their jobs.

No need to apologize, I didn't write the essay. :)

Seriously, it sounds like you've done some serious photography -- all I've done is tourist-y crap and nature shots, nothing serious -- so how should someone respond in a situation like this? If I'm just some hobbyist who gets confronted by a bunch of cops and corporate overseers, do I stand my ground and risk arrest? Is there a good way to defuse the situation without volunteering to destroy my own work?

Calling ahead to get permission/give advance notice might have been a good idea, but in some cases the opportunity to take pictures is not really planned in advance. Maybe that was problem in this case?

And, is the heavy-handed response a new thing (post-9/11)? Or has that sort of thing been common for a long time? Your post implies that this level of response is nothing new.

I don't have a stake in this story, I'm just curious -- and actually interested just in case I try to do some "real" photography, instead of just hack-photoshopping. I don't want to land my ass in jail just because I like the way the clouds hang over the cooling tower.

(Now that I think about it...I did take some really cool pictures of the windmill power system outside of Palm Springs this year, and nobody said a word. Of course, I didn't stray far from my car, so maybe I looked like the tourist that I was.)

Thanks for directing me to that article.

As an artist I am appalled. I too have taken pictures of objects, places and buildings that are hard to explain "why" to people who have very narrow views of what art is.

Tell me that cannot be the law...that you are not allowed to take pictures of certain things since 9/11!!! When will it stop? The hijackers from 9/11 didn't attack an oil refinery. They used box cutters to overtake the pilots. This paranoid knee-jerk slashing of my freedoms is un-American. Inspect the damn cargo ships and quit accusing anyone with a camera or paintbrush as a terrorist you thugs!

Thanks! :hi:

Reminds me of area 51 stories! :tinfoilhat:

nobody forced him.

He was scared of a few cops and some corporate schill. He got intimidated.

He should have kept the pictures, should have stuck to his story.

He would have been fine I'm sure.

You can't blame an oil company, after 9/11, to act this way.

I've always been a pretty serious photographer. When I was a kid I lived on military bases and I'd run around and take pictures of whatever I could get away with. Sometimes I'd get busted. Once it was a little scary because these GI's cornered me and were pretty seriously fucking with me. I was able to drive away luckily.

You run around taking pictures, you take your chances. Not everybody likes their picture taken.

What a story! The photographer has a gift of not only taking great photographs, but he can tell a good story too! Very well done. Welcome to Orwell's America!

Your Rights When Stopped or Confronted for Photography

Photographing industrial sites, bridges, railroads, buildings, etc. has been around as long as photography itself. There are bunch of stories around the net on photo boards and lists about people being hassled now for taking photos of those subjects. Pretty sad state of affairs we live in now.

I too get the "why'd you take a picture of that?" guestion all the time usually from people of the more right-wing persuasion.

because they wouldn't let tourists take pictures of bridges.

KICK!

I posted about this elsewhere, so I'll just link to that:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=15873#15979

Edit: weird, bookmark doesn't work. It's post #16

...for taking pictures of HVDC power lines.

I guess I must have looked like an "eco-terrorist."

Actually I was researching Buckminster Fuller's grandiose idea for a global power grid.

I suppose if I'd been a noisier sort of environmentalist the FBI might have hid some thermite in my car and accused me of making plans to knock the power lines down.

Look up FBI "Thermcon" using google if you are interested. I didn't worry very much about our government until I read that.

when he stopped to take pictures with some visiting relatives at the Brooklyn Bridge.

VERY dangerous taking pictures.

I have Nazi orders in occupied France which require all photos to be developed in "licensed" shops (licensed by the Nazi-run Vichy government) under penalty for filure to do so. Serious penalties.

The Bush administration IS the Nazi administration. Same entities - different generation.

took some shots of a shoot as he happened by. We happened to be near a military facility which was in the background.

He gave me a card and asked if I wanted copies (I did). He gave me several shots and when I looked at them the military facility had virtually "disappeared" from the shots and there was nothing but "fog" in the background.

They were great photos of my actors but the fact that the background set had been wiped clean was very weird.

If there's any haze or fog in the air, this can happen due to the great amount of UV in the air that the eye does not see.

I've had it happen to me many times. Nothing "scary" about it.