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Is Jeb more of a "true believer" than his brother

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:02 PM
Original message
Is Jeb more of a "true believer" than his brother
I often think Bush is faking faith, or at the least, if he is a Christian, he doesn't have a tremendous handle on what that means.

But somehow I get the feeling Jeb is not faking. More specifically, I am wondering if he is more of a true social Conservative than his brother? I wonder if the social Conservatives would have preferred him in the White House. Or is he playing to that constituency too?

What say you?

(small tangent: do ANY of the prominent Christian Republicans really mean it: Santorum, Frist, Brownback, et al?)
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Kenneth ken Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. don't know about religion
but he is a true believer in the PNAC world view.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. So I bet the PNACers wish he'd run
God forbid.
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Kenneth ken Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I was going to edit
but since you already replied,

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

he signed on with them here.

And yes, I think they would have preferred him. His problem was he lost his first run for FL Gov.
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. He's Catholic.
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Flubadubya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Just askin' ...
On what do you base your premise about Jeb? I only know of his "interest" in the Terry Schiavo case... and I have to wonder just how deep into his Christian "depths" he had to reach for that one... about as far as Tom Delay's calling of the Congress together to put a stop to the "murder"?

Again, just askin'.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. None of the Bushes have ever believed in anything except themselves.
Poppy "Pro-Choice" Bush became Poppy "Born-again" Bush in approximately three months back in 1980.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yep
Edited on Thu Oct-27-05 08:14 PM by FreedomAngel82
It's easy to see with Bush that he doesn't care either way about religion. Jeb I really don't know. :shrug: I don't think Poppy cares either. If he did he wouldn't have changed. He would've stud by them I think.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Speaking of shrub's supposed fundamentalism, remember Mars?
He made a statement about the possibility of life on Mars once. I can't seem to find it now, but I remember it distinctly. He can't possibly be a Bible literalist and believe that there was life on Mars before us.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. No but "Paris is worth a mass"
I'm sure he's greater believer in the joy of screwing his enemies and shafting the little people more than anything to be found in a catechism or book of sayings.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. I honestly don't know enough about Jeb to say.
I do think that Dub is more or less an empty vessel whose ideology comes from whoever is surrounding him or whatever he finds expedient. I don't think he has the intellect to actually have a belief system of his own. It's my understanding that Jeb is the smart one. Smart enough to actually have a belief system. But I suspect that his beliefs too are more a matter of whatever will advance his own power.

I don't know about those other guys. To tell you the truth, that mindset is so foreign to me that I can't even begin to understand it, let alone know whether it's for real or not.

Santorum maybe. You have to have some kind whacked out beliefs to bring a dead fetus home for your children to fondle. But then, maybe that was just a gesture to the religious right as well. Who really can know?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. In many ways
Jeb is far more dangerous than George. In regard to the religious question, each of them believes in the context of projections of themselves .... hence some seem more of a fake than others.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. No, he's just smarter and a better actor.
No one as underhanded as he can be a real true Christian.
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
11. Problem is Jeb's BimboSSSSSSSS
For a married man, he does sleep around a lot.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. jeb has an imaginary ninja
that guides him...jeb took out his ninja sword during some address several weeks ago...jeb`s crazy.
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corbett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. He Moved To Take Pressure Of Big Bro Yesterday
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-wmain2705oct27,0,5723620.story

<snip>

Miami-Dade County Mayor Carlos Alvarez called the relief process "flawed," adding that he was "frustrated, disappointed, angered" with the delivery of supplies. Increasingly perturbed residents agreed.

"We can't get food, water, power," said Gail McDonald of Coral Springs. "It's going to be a mess like this for months. This is a national disaster, and FEMA should help us."

But Bush said the Federal Emergency Management Agency wasn't at fault.

"Don't blame FEMA. This is our responsibility," Bush said. "If anyone wants to blame anybody, blame me."

</snip>
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WritingIsMyReligion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. He believes in flaunting Christianity, not practicing it. nt
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tallahasseedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. Hes faking....
He suddenly converted to Catholicism before the Governor's race to appeal to the vote in Miami. He said he had been meaning to get to it since his wife is. How convenient that he finally decided to after 20 years of marriage right before an important election.
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Liberal_Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Bu$hes Are A Family Of Opportunists
None of them really believe in anything except doing whatever they have to do to get and maintain their own power.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. Here is a short historical primer...
Edited on Thu Oct-27-05 10:04 PM by newswolf56
on the relationship between religious Fundamentalism and capitalism, a summary of connections vital to understanding the relationship between the corporate oligarchy, the Republicans (who in many cases are the oligarchs and in every case represent them), and Christianity -- especially (today and in America) the Fundamentalist Protestant brand of Christianity that has become Dominionist: the people I call "JesuNazi stormtroopers" and "Ku Klux Khristians" for their intent to impose theocracy on the United States.

First -- historically speaking -- it is necessary to recognize that modern capitalism is a specifically Christian economic ideology, the byproduct of historical forces arising directly from the resumption of Roman Empire-level trade during the Renaissance, a thousand years after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the subsequent descent into barbarism economically sundered Europe from the rest of the world. The profit motive is probably as old as humankind, but not until the advent of Christianity did it find true religious support, particularly in the Genesis mandate to conquer, subdue and exploit the world and everyone in it -- interpreted of course in terms of the New Testament mandate to convert the world to Christianity. (For which see especially Max Weber and Marx himself: useful Googles include "christian oppression" and "origins of capitalism".)

Next it is necessary to visit the American South, where even now Fundamentalist Christianity is the ideological whip by which the workers are flogged into ever greater submission to "god's select": the bosses and the plutocrats who own the land, factories and businesses. Here we see that Marx's analysis of religion as the "opiate" of the masses is merely the uppermost layer of a deep and terrible miasma of oppression: the enthusiasms and hysterias of Fundamentalism provide emotional relief to the oppressed, just as the frightening hell-fire exhortations of the preachers serve the ruling-class objectives of ensuring the workers are constantly in terror (whether of postmorten hell or premortem punishment) and -- above all -- are denied any possibility of raised consciousness and thus prevented from any sort of productive collective action -- especially unionization. Indeed the only "collective" action allowed is that of the church: in the case of males, "the Saturday Night Men's Bible Study Class" aka the Ku Klux Klan (which is also the death squad that enforces corporate will).

The Fundamentalist preachers in the South -- and many of the mainstream Christian ministers and priests too -- are thus like fascist political officers: denouncing anything and everything even remotely progressive as "of the devil": thereby maintaining the iron-handed tyranny of the oligarchs.

Only one part of the South ever truly broke out of these dread shackles: Appalachia. There -- largely because not even Fundamentalism was strong enough to dilute the Scots/Irish history of the "rising" -- the organizers of the mine workers' unions (later John L. Lewis and the UMW) literally silenced the preachers at gunpoint, occasionally (very rarely) even converting them to the union cause. (Starter Googles: "harlan county strikes", "coal creek war", "matewan".)

It is something of an aside, but the film Matewan is largely true, especially in its portrait of the role of Fundamentalism: "The older preacher, played by Sayles himself, represents the entrenched way of thinking. He spews the company line, equating the devil with socialism and communism, and thereby, the union." (I disagree vehemently with the author's analysis that capitalism is less exploitive than feudalism, and the film's suggestion there has somehow magically arisen in the white South a "newer" pro-union Fundamentalism is complete falsehood -- Hollywood propaganda -- but that is beside the point; the writer's characterizations of the film and its characters are accurate.) For the essay from which this quote is taken -- an economics paper -- go to:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/sgabriel/filmcourse_files/matewanb.htm

Back to the main topic, thus too the probable "real" reason for the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr.: the fact that in his final speeches he dared link racial oppression and economic oppression. (Not surprisingly, blacks today are by far the most unionized ethnic group in the South -- elsewhere else in the U.S. too: no doubt yet another reason for bourgeois white animosity.)

As to the motives of the Bush family, it is precisely the world of Matewan to which the forces of global capitalism now seek to reduce us all: outsourcing, downsizing, pension-looting, forcible reduction of wages, methodical destruction of the social safety net, skyrocketing prices -- every one of these (seemingly separate) trends and events is part of a greater scheme of oppression: the means by which the plutocrats increase their wealth, consolidate their power and ensure we will never again share either, whether by the peaceful, Constitutional means of the New Deal, the equally peaceful methods of democratic socialism, or the violent, last-resort methods of the Russian, Chinese, Cuban and Vietnamese revolutions.

Bottom line, Abrahamic Fundamentalism (whether Judaic, Christian or Islamic) mandates absolute obedience to leaders, "god's select," and theocracy gives the Fundamentalist leadership absolute control. Thus the Bush Administration's support of Fundamentalism in the Middle East (Saudi Arabia, the escape of bin Laden, the imposition of theocracy on Iran and its re-imposition on Afghanistan) and Dominionism in America. (Google "christian dominionism" and scroll thoroughly, especially the Yurica Report entries.) Thus too the Bush Administration (whether nationally or in Florida) as the ultimate expression of global capitalist intent: reducing the entire planetary workforce to the desperate, terrified, savagely exploited wage-slavery status of Third World workers -- with Fundamentalism to ensure everyone's absolute obedience to the Big Boss (whether he is called foreman, manager or god).

And now finally your question about the Bushes: I believe that (like other boardroom-level capitalists), none of the Bushes believe in anything beyond money. Jeb is merely the more convincing actor -- a bit better than George at the public pretense required of a "good Christian man," especially in the South -- but no less an absolute enemy of liberty than any other plutocrat: his capitalist values (which for the maintenance of profits demand ever-increasing exploitation of humans) allow him no other option.

(I hope this helps; I probably need not say it is offered with genuine respect for your question.)


Edit: more precision in first paragraph, bad spacing in the last.
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