Two Questions for DUers:

"I spoke to a number of people from both parties in the days immediately following my Times appearance. Sandy Berger, President Clinton's national security adviser, was as cogent as he was concise. Since the Bush people never backed down, he pointed out, the fact that they had been so quick to admit their error this time meant that they must have something more important to protect."
-- Ambassador Joseph Wilson; The Politics of Truth; pages 5-6

Last night, John Dean said that Lewis "Scooter" Libby is serving as a "fire wall" for Vice President Dick Cheney. When one puts yesterday's indictments into that context, and considers that the fire wall that protects Cheney also protects that "something more important" than Berger mentioned to Wilson, two questions should come to mind.

These two questions are not asked in the sense that there are "right" or "wrong" answers. They are asked only to get an idea what people's opinions are. There has been a lot of confusing information reported in the corporate media, which I believe is part of the process of "perception management" geared to distract and mislead us. Thus, I ask these two simple but sincere questions in hopes that they may help us keep our eyes on the prize.

{1} What is the "something more important" that the VP's office is trying to protect, even if it must sacrifice Libby?

{2} What important steps should we, as the grass-roots progressive democrats, take to expand the pressure on the administration to reveal that "something more important"?

Thank you for your consideration.
Water Man

1) Cheney's multiple trips to the CIA; Cheney's links to the PNACers (including the DoD - Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith); Cheney's stranglehold over the State Dept.

Remember, that Senate Investigative Committee came out last year saying, based on what they had investigated so far, no undue influence was seen by the White House over the CIA or other agencies. HOWEVER, that first phase wasn't tasked with finding out exactly the White House did to pressure agencies or to alter findings that were submitted to the White House. That was supposed to be the second phase of the investigation which the Propagandist has now issued an Executive Order declaring that investigation dead. Remember that famous NIE that went to the Senate just days before the Iraq war vote? That NIE was filtered of wording showing dual-use and other doubts were removed and exaggerations were added in. We never found out who in the White House was involved in that and how much they altered findings to suit their warmongering.

That's why Libby is the "firewall".


2) That's the $64,000 question and there may not be anything we can do. The best that we can do is for EVERYONE to call, write, email, etc. their Congressional Representatives and their Senators and demand that they push hard on the White House to come clean and tell the American public the truth it so greatly deserves.

Also, do our best to fund raise for Democratic candidates in EVERY STATE AND DISTRICT! By taking back at least one of the Houses of Congress we stand a chance of holding this vile administration accountable for its deception.

But, of course, having someone like George Soros start up a new 24-hr news channel that actually has journalists and anchors willing to ask the hard questions and cut thru the RW talking points wouldn't hurt!




Just my $0.02. ;)

the Patrick Fitzgerald news conference last night, they put up a little "headline" that Frist says there will be NO CONGRESSIONAL investigation of the outing of Valerie Plame.

I think calling the critters is useless.

to as many people as possible so that they will be armed with the FACTS when talking about HOW, WHERE, WHEN, and WHY a lot of this happened..

H2OMan gave me what I considered a Sterling Review of my 2 DVD set which he enjoyed so much that I believe he watched it three times (okay so he was snowed in :) ) --

If you go to http://www.takebackthemedia.com you can read about the film and watch the preview - I've done my homework on this, a year in the research phase, and it's also FUN to watch at the same time, not your average talking head boring documentary, taken great pains to make it enlightening, informative and educational with some tongue-in-cheek moments as well.

This is ARMOR against SPIN, that's why they call us TAKEBACKTHEMEDIA.COM - we got them PEGGED :) Spread the word of it Please, to blogs, MSM, friends, etc..

Check it out, and don't forget to check out H2OMan's fine blog as well..

Thanks.

And, although I bought sets for my sons for the holiday, the film is so good -- and so important -- that I am bringing one set to my younger son at his college today. I want college-aged citizens to watch this important film ... today.

Those are the ones that need to be reached, like the rest of us they can get so busy (besides partying,etc) that they don't have a chance to get the lowdown on all that's going on..

Glad you are doing that H20, very good news, inspires me even more..

I'm putting together a big box of them to send to Binka's son (not the hurt troop, tho he might be interested in a set as well, I'd comp him a set for his stepping up to the plate, not his fault it's the wrong war and the wrong time for the wrong reasons..) - Binka's College son (a handsome rascal, man, she has some cute kids) will receive 24 sets of DVDs (she was very generous to me as she is to everyone) and I expect he'll be handing them out, if only to get rid of them :)

Never know who might see it at his school and that's a good thing!

Thanks to others who've been so generous and those interested, I don't think you'll be dissapointed - I've seen worse DVDs for the money :)

Bush knew and let this charade of an investigation continue for two years. Why didn't he tell us who the leakers were two years ago and why does he still have them in the White House. How long is this White House going to be nothing more than a front for the "Vulcans".


"They call themselves “the Vulcans”. American Omnipotence is their religion. A senior official is quoted as saying ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality.” Their “own reality” has included the formation of obscure agencies like the Office of Special Plans and the White House Iraq Group. They used these agencies to thwart the conventional avenues of CIA intelligence gathering and have proven they would go so far as to endanger the classified identity of a covert operative. They disregarded Congressional oversight and misappropriated funds from the war in Afghanistan to unauthorized war preparations for Iraq. They circumvented the Geneva Conventions in order to create a new reality of torture. They have now proven they will even lie to the keepers of American jurisprudence that they are sworn to uphold."

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/?view=plink&id=1428

but I doubt very much that a pudgy white rich guy named Scooter is going to want to serve a full jail term just so he can be a "fire wall"....

That would seem to be the plan, just like Iran-Contra

issue pardons there would be so much fall out from the war that I think the American people would show up on the WH lawn with pitch forks, torches and rope for hangings.

Just a thought.

there is sure to be a shortage on them soon

Btw, wouldn't admission tickets to their new fun park at gitmo be better for fit for them :think:

1) The machinations of the Neocon cabal that engineered the Iraq War as part of the PNAC agenda. Behind Libby is Cheney and others like Hadley. Also, the probable connection between them and those involved in the AIPIC scandal.

2) Electing those who care about the truth in 2006 is a major start. Pressure on the MSM (super scoops from the blogs that can't be ignored). Working with those who have clout as they are very willing to work here (e.g., Conyers, Kennedy, et al).

Just my lil take.

and it is bad. Worse than we could even imagine. It has something to do with putting the country into danger. And it involves Bush and Cheney. And the CIA is fully aware of it. And it will come to light gradually in time, not right away. Just my .02.

Not a lot the Dems can do right now. They are totally disempowered for a complex set of reasons. The biggest threat to BushCo right now is his own party and the CIA. And Bush himself is the biggest liability. He is mentally ill, drinking heavily and very unstable and his minders distracted and scared.

And PS. Rove and his attny are pulling some very clever fast ones that has even Fitz over a barrel. Rove and Luskin are quite pleased with themselves.

:shrug:

:hi:

Clearly, I meant "Burger King." (grin)

Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

They've already proven they don't care about justice or national security but if the truth of how they exposed an agent for revenge then tried to cover it up could devastate the rest of this administration and the Republican party.

The only thing we can do at this point is let the press know we want this covered and our representatives know we want this thoroughly investigated.

1. We received very very little information from Patrick Fitzgerald. Other than Libby and the five accounts.

2. The investigation is still open. Accordingly, Mr. Fitzgerald has just rented new office space in Washington D.C.

3. It appears that two groups of people are unconventional in thought about this issue. With some saying that Mr. Fitzgerald is wrapping up his investigation and some believing that he's marching ahead. Contrary to both sides, Mr. Fitzgerald told us not to read the tea leaves.

It is in my bias opinion that the investigation is far from over and we must do everything possible to rouse public opinion about the reason for the Plame leak leading to the illegal invasion of Iraq.

is determined to hide the made-up intelligence and trumped-up rationale for this Iraq war. In this regard, the parallels to Watergate can't be understated. The cover-up becomes the crime.

I feel that Cheney is willing to sacrifice anyone to protect himself, and more importantly, that he is a firewall for the president. (I heard John Dean say that about Scooter, too, and thought it was an apt metaphor.) I think Fitzgerald believes that Cheney is the mastermind of this entire criminal enterprise, but as with Scooter, he doesn't know Cheney's motives.

If Fitz doesn't know them, I don't either. I can't imagine that Cheney has any further political aspirations, and attributing his actions to "pure evil" is too simplistic.

- - - - - - -

As ordinary, progressive citizens, the only thing we can really do is hold the administration's feet to the fire through our elected representatives, and educate those around us who are unaware of what all this really means for the country. (The WH is banking on the fact that most of the country doesn't know a damn thing about the CIA Leak Probe; that the names Scooter Libby, Pat Fizgerald, John Bolton, Karl Rove or Valerie Wilson or dozens of others mean nothing to them.)

My first gut reaction to question number one, is the overall conspiracy by neocons at DOD, the State Department, and the White House to lie the country into war. Including the forged Niger documents scheme. Whom I believe involves, amongst many others, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Bush. What nags at me as well, is what nefarious plan that Brewster Jennings discovered. I think it is bigger than planting nukes in Iraq, although I think that theory is plausible. What is the bigger crime though? I would think that lying our country into war was the greater offense.

When you mesh the Franklin case with Plame it brings up so many questions. I think it is plausible that we have, within the highest positions in our government, agents of a foreign country. I also believe that the at the bottom of all of this lies the answers to 9-11.

I don't have an answer for the second question. How do you explain all of this to others. It has taken me 3 years of studying to arrive at the conclusions I have come to hold.

I imagine he'll opt for "plan A" and enter a plea for something as long as he doesn't have to spill any beans about the original leaker or give up the goods on the script for going to war. I still believe Fitzy will nail someone else . . . not necessarily Rove. Who gave up the name to that old coot Novak? The bigger question is how to root out the corruption in this administration and learn the real reasons for war and who choreographed the deception. With a Republican majority in Congress, it's unlikely to happen soon. Democrats need to milk the multiple scandals for all they're worth, win both houses, then let the investigations begin. It's a long haul, but Watergate didn't happen overnight.

...he is NOT going to get a deal on the charges and in this case the only deal that I can see is on sentencing since he did not put the government to a trial to prove his guilt. The reason I say this is that, imo, Fitzgerald is looking for Libby to give up something and that something, imo again, is Cheney. I look for more charges, and worse ones, against Libby coming out of the new grand jury. I don't see Libby as off the hook from further indictments in any manner whatsoever.

I think that Fitzgerald believes that Libby is the "weak sister", so to speak, in all of this and by putting pressure on him, he will break him. Libby will ONLY get a deal IF he gives something up. That is what a plea bargain is all about -- he prosecutor wants something and the defendant gives up what the prosecutor wants in order to get the deal. Imo, if Libby gives up Cheney, then he will get some reduced charges -- like the deal that Dean got in Watergate -- and will do a much shorter time in the pen. But I do not believe he will avoid punishment and jail time even in a plea bargain wherein he gives up Cheney. Libby, imo, is not only the lever that Fitzgerald is using to get Cheney, but he is being made an example of.

The 'something important' is the VP. It's been said many times if anything happened to Cheney, bush would finally get to be president. Cheney runs the show at the WH and Bush is the front man. While Cheney does the machinations behind the scenes, bush is the face of the WH.

John Dean's book 'Worse than Watergate' provides excellent insight into this.

I do think Libby is falling on the proverbial sword. He knew if he told the truth it would be the VP that would get the charges. Three or four talking heads have been amazed that a lawyer of Libby's caliber would do something so stupid as to lie to the FBI and to the Grand Jury.

As far as your second question goes, I think the best thing we can do is to not let this story fall out of the news cycle. I'm going to write a few LTTE's and do some emailing whenever I hear anyone get it wrong. I also want to hold the media's feet to the fire whenever they get it wrong or attempt to downplay Libby's indictments.

Today, I'm going to be researching and collecting a lot of quotes from various sources. I've already got a few ideas :evilgrin:

... to the first question is Cheney himself. Cheney is the big-picture guy in the run-up to the war. His ideas shaped political strategy and public opinion (perhaps going back to the May, 2001, energy task force meetings), but certainly since the advent of WHIG, and he has, long after the fact, continued to offer disinformation about WMDs which has since been proved to be false beyond a doubt. That suggests a psychology involved that all of Cheney's false evidence had to be defended, by any means necessary--including using Wilson's wife as a threat to Wilson (a very Rovian tactic probably introduced in a WHIG meeting by Rove).

The answer to the second question is that pressure on the press is the only effective thing which can be done at the grassroots level. The press dropped the ball, and they're now rather sensitive to having been called out for doing so--directly or indirectly, because of the Times and Judith Miller--it's an opportune time, then, to remind the national press that there's more to this story than it has reported thus far, and, perhaps, they wouldn't want additional egg on their collective faces after having done a disservice to the public in the months before the war.

There's no point in bombarding Fox or MSRNC with demands to actually do reporting--that's a waste of time. But the networks and the larger papers are sensitive to public opinion (not as much we might like, but they are). So, the strategy ought to be to keep the pressure on, in the way of letters to specific reporters and to ombudsmen, pointing out specific items which have not been reported on, and more importantly, ones which have been mentioned and glossed over or dismissed despite the evidence. That would require careful research, and the determination to present that research in a way which could not be easily dismissed. Polemics won't serve the purpose. It would probably be helpful to keep pounding on instances of more complete or provocative reporting from authoritative sources outside the US as an example of how the domestic press is dropping the ball on that issue.

Cheers.

in his most eloquent passage, be discouraged by 'the belief that there is nothing one man or one woman can do against the enormous array of the world's ills -- against misery and ignorance, injustice and violence .... Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all these acts will be written the history of this generation.

'It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centres of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.' "
-- Arthur Schlesinger, Jr; Robert Kennedy and His Times; 1978; page 803.

1. The (possibly 2-way) stovepiping, the cherry-picking, and the funnelling via the lamestream media into the hearts and minds of citizens of a case for invasion built on nebulous foundations;

(ed: without forgetting for one minute the suspicion that someone in the cabal doesn't want to see real counterproliferation efforts be successful);

2. Many answers will be provided here by DUers who know what they do. I'd just like to call attention to Fitzgerald's words yesterday:

"...I think what we see here today, when a vice president's chief of staff is charged with perjury and obstruction of justice, it does show the world that this is a country that takes its law seriously; that all citizens are bound by the law.

"But what we need to also show the world is that we can also apply the same safeguards to all our citizens, including high officials. Much as they must be bound by the law, they must follow the same rules.

"So I ask everyone involved in this process, anyone who participates in this trial, anyone who covers this trial, anyone sitting home watching these proceedings to follow this process with an American appreciation for our values and our dignity.

"Let's let the process take place. Let's take a deep breath and let justice process the system."

(and yeah, I know, there's still one law for some, and another law for others...)

I agree with your number one. I believe their primary concern was the exposure of all of that fake intel including most importantly the cheney forged Niger document. But outing a CIA agent working on counter proliferation? Cheney probably thought he hit the jackpot when he found out he could ruin that outfit. I also believe it ties into the planting and "finding" of WMD in Iraq which ms. miller was to have played a part in.

2. As others have said here it will take a lot of pressure on our media in each of our own ways to keep this story front and center over the next few months as this plays out. The Iran/Contra hearings were held live on TV, I sure hope the same will be true of the CIA Leak Trial of scooter libby. I can not wait to see crashcart on the stand!

I say that what is being hidden is not only that Cheney was involved in outing Plame, but that he planned it and conspired with others to execute the plan and the reason was to silence critics like Joe Wilson who was on to the biggest lie foisted off on us about the reasons for the invasion of Iraq: Those 16 words from the State of the Union address. It is my opinion that further digging into the Niger documents would bring forth facts that Cheney either was involved in the forgeries in some manner and/or knew from the get-go that those documents were false.

Frankly, I do not think that Libby will fall on the sword. I believe that the indictments handed down are only the beginning against Libby and that he stands to have further indictments come down against him on the actual outing of Plame. Just from what I have seen in the past, USAttys have done this --- presenting certain information and bringing in certain indictments with the target knowing that a far larger and greater shoe can and will drop unless they give up someone or something the USAtty wants.

about this,they are protecting themselves from anyone who has proof that they lied to get us into this war.

The media has already taken off the gloves in reporting on the scandal,and all polls show the war to be increasingly unpopular.This will be news for a long time and added to the list of this admins. dirty laundry.People are not happy and want change.We need to be the party that has real,common sense answers to getting us out of this mess.

I`m not sure that there is only one "something more important" that the Bushies are willing to sacrifice Libby over, but if I had to venture a guess I`d say it may have something to do with origin of the forged documents and a desire to conceal the fact that the Bushies planned to invade Iraq long before 9/11.

If I stop to think about the extent to which the Bush administration is willing to abuse power (torture planes, misuse of funds in Iraq, taxpayer-funded propaganda, etc.) then there is nothing I`d put past these people.

Chris Matthews may openly celebrate Rove`s "genius" but to my way of thinking, this administration has done nothing short of creating a phony reality. The Bushies ARE snakeoil salesmen and many Americans have purchased a whole case of the stuff. It isn`t until one of their loved ones dies from the contents that they start asking what was in the bottles.

What can we do? Face the danger we`re in. Forget the chatter about Ann Coulter`s latest book and use this site to start a forceful, dead serious movement against the feckless media and our corporate-owned elected representatives. If we don`t do something...and soon...it will be too late to turn back.

After 40-plus years in the Democratic Party, I can honestly say that I`m astounded by the mediocrity we now call leadership. There is not only safety in numbers, there is power in numbers. Our message to the party should be...Start listening, grow a set or don`t ask us for one thin dime.

Senator Ted Kennedy is leading a grassroots effort to stop the Whitehouse coverup:

Scooter Libby and Vice President Cheney withheld critical documents in the Senate's investigation of the use and misuse of intelligence in the decision to go to war and in the management of the war.

These documents must be handed over, because the American people deserve answers.

We need answers, not cover-ups, by the Administration about these serious issues.

Sign his Petition:


"I ask the White House to turn over all documents withheld from the United States Senate during its investigation of the use of intelligence during the planning of the Iraq war."

http://www.tedkennedy.com/page/petition/iraqdocuments

Sen. Kennedy's Diary at Daily Kos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/28/173835/72

Can be found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5216773

and another way to make our voices heard. Signed and sent.

and it was a huge moment that gave me much pause.

I have formed the opinion that Libby lied originally, with the simple arrogance that those who feel they are the smartest man in the room have.

However, as this evolved, I think that he let himself get caught to speed up the end of this mess. As I have come to understand it, as long as the original Grand Jury is convened, you can "fix" the errors in your testimony. Libby knew what Fitz had, but didn't. Someone had to get caught, to give the press a sense of "finality" so they could move on. Because underneath the thin veneer of the run up to the war is Chalabi, Curveball, and the dirty details behind the DSM.

They have not yet spun public opinion out of the "fight them over there" nonsense that scared Americans into this war. They simply want this to be done being tried in the theater of the American public.

I think its worth concentrating more minds here on H2O Man's 2 questions.

I believe Cheney is part of an international group that is facilitating weapons exchanges (we saw a tip of it with Khan in Pakistan albeit a very brief glance before the whole thing was swept under the table). I believe PNAC is wrapped up in all of this as well. There are underlying forces and international conspiracies afoot and Valerie Plame's Brewster Jennings' CIA group was getting close to uncovering some of the dirty dealings.

I don't believe Wilson was the real target - he just provided the ways and means to get to her and even more importantly , her organization.

I believe this is all history repeating itself with arms dealing always being the power players' weapon of choice.

2. As for what we as citizens can do, you provided a thoughtful look in another thread. Talk to the neighbors, talk to the media when/if you can muster the energy to run your head into that brick wall, relentlessly attempt to communicate with your representatives, consider running for office yourself, and most importantly vote. And get your educated friends and neighbors to vote. (I know this brings up a host of Diebold issues but that's not for this thread).

I was hoping to shut down here and go do some work around the house. Now I have to think and type and read.
Please adjust your :tinfoilhat:
1. I could be wrong, but the entire Military Industrial Complex is being protected. Going beyond the war, if I take Plame seriously and I read somewhere that she and her friends in Brewster Jennings were on to some heavy stuff. They were uncovering a whole lot of illegal weapons traffic and it may be related to Pakistan's A. Q. Khan and to our very own GFY cheney. Sure they lied for war and cooked intell. which is just good practice in using up the old stockpiles of depleted uranium crap. Of course new and improved weapons need to be built. Dubby has done nothing except make us less safe in this regard. He has backed off of the non-proliferation treaties and Nuclear Test Ban treaties. He loves his mini-nukes.

2. I don't want to sound hopeless here, but it will take a lot to bring down this cabal. I always refer to the Kennedy Assassination which has never been solved. I really fear that we won't see the entire truth in anything bushco for many years, if ever.

Now on a positive note, Fitzgerald is giving me hope- his "truth is the engine of Justice" quote inspires me. I hope he grabs dubco by the balls and twists until all the evil doers are outed. Then elections in democrats favor will be helpful to clean up the last of the crew.

A minute apart. Care to share tin foil hats?

Great minds think alike!
:rofl:

My first thought was "the military corporations". I'm not sure that's what H2oman is thinking in his post. I'm guessing he is looking for something more specific to this investigation. But ultimately, there is Halliburton and all of the others. Our economy literally depends on them and on the oil.

My answer to the post would be that I know that Bush and Cheney were in on the ground floor, and knew everything. They're trying to protect the king and queen (bush and Cheney), the corporate figureheads.

But question two is not easy to answer. Assuming that the Democrats in Congress remain as they've been, that gives us no means there. The media is owned by the companies that are being protected by this obstruction of justice. Half of the American people are figuratively retarted. It's nearly hopeless. Except that I read a quote this morning that said something to the effect that power always has to ask before it can take hold. A general strike, refusal to pay taxes are only self endangering. But what else can one do? Vote? That's pretty weak. But the ultimate democratic process. Here's where not being educated in literature and history has me at a great disadvantage.

edit- One more thought- help from outside of the country. I've always thought that ulitmately this is where America would find it's recovery efforts. We are not alone in this world. I'm not sure what this means. Butit's just a thought.

in their faces in a very simple way that has nothing to do with activism from the outside.All it would really take is Libby deciding that he'd rather be home with the wife and kids than off to prison combined with a reporter or reporters who smell a pulitzer in the air.
Stranger things have been known to happen folks!

on why we went to war in the first place--particular connections->
Saudi Arabia; Chalabi; Halliburton all are key. What is irritating is listening to the media dealing with only the surface issues around this indictment. The Whigs wanted the pursuit of additional info surrounding the Niger issue stopped dead in its tracks. There was a reason. They aren't stupid. Especially Libby. They knew from the beginning that the consequences would be either Wilson would be discredited and no harm to administration or Wilson would put up a fight and the administration would come under fire. Someone would go down for the team. Ultimately however the conversation would NOT be about Niger and the lies before the war. It is happening as planned. The notes that just recently surfaced were also part of that great plan. They waited until they had a full picture of all the potential consequences before allowing the prosecutor his "hook". They also succeeded in making the gj drag on for two years giving them more time in Iraq to steal the oil and make more money. Judy is part of this. Judy has been promised something big. Time will tell.

This inquiring mind wants to know why outting Valerie, and putting national security (and her life) at risk, for politics :shrug:

I mean, they could've just swiftboated Joe in their evil, slimey way to dismiss his NYT editorial? They had NOTHING on Joe though, other yelling "liar, liar pants on fire!).

conspicious places (doc offices, car repair shops , airports). I also encourage emailing fair minded journalists with info found here (with links). I started doing the emailing suggestion after NO. I found that subjects I emailed were commonly covered about a day later. This may be coincidence, but if enough of us do this, it may make a difference!

1) I think that they are hiding the machinations of the secret Cheney intelligence cabal, the "Office of Special Plans" or whatever you call it. You pointed out months ago that this group of neocons is operating separately from the CIA and reports to no one outside the White House, but has a terrific influence on the foreign policy (Iraq war) of the US. They don't want anyone to know the extent of their "special plans" to continue the campaign of wars in the Middle East. Iraq is just the beginning.

2) Beyond writing to our legislators and sending LTTE to our local papers, not sure what we can do. There was a time when we had organized efforts to send letters to the papers and/or the Intelligence Committee, the Congressional Black Caucus, etc. Maybe we just start that all over again. Go to Calimary's list and get started with the letter writing campaigns.

My opinion about Fitzmas Day is that Libby successfully stonewalled the investigation into the outing of Valerie Plame with his lies and his pressure on Judy to keep her mouth shut. He is the reason the investigation dragged on for two years. We would be seeing a broader list of indictments if Libby hadn't forced them to focus instead on why he wasn't telling them the truth.

Also, I think we may have discussed this several months ago; I think it is possible that Rove & Co. honestly didn't know how serious a crime it was to leak Valerie Plame's name to the press. Seems like I remember you quoting from Wildon's book that Rove freaked out when he learned that what they had done was leak the name of a covert agent. Am I wrong about this? Wasn't he on the phone with someone screaming his head off? So in their rush to exact political revenge they screwed up and committed a crime. I realize that this "opinion" flies in the face of the theory that in exposing Plame they knowingly put a stop to her operation, which was investigating WMD proliferation. And of course I fully admit that I may be dead wrong. In fact I sorta hope that I am.

If I'm right it explains why Fitz didn't go for the big charge of "Disclosing the identity of a covert officer." Is it possible that in order to be charged with this crime they had to have done so knowingly and with malicious intent?

Now I know I've been gone a long time Brother H2O, all the same I would appreciate your opinion and comments on all of the above.

Since I'm a political novice I defer to your more learned opinion.


:P

You wrote that Libby successfully stonewalled the investigation. I note that as of yesterday, he was charged with five crimes that can potentially cost him 30 years of incarceration and $1.25 million dollars in fines. That does not include the cost of legal fees and the obvious loss of his membership in the legal community.

While he is hanging with the boys, I'm sure he's being told, "Well done, Scooter! You were successful in stonewalling them! Thanks, dude!"

Do you think Scooter will continue to see this as a success? I'm not sure.

UNSUCCESSFULLY stonewalled the investigation. Or at least was only successful for a couple years. And if the investigation continues, his indictment sends a clear message to others who may be of interest (read: Rove) that they better come clean or face the same charges themselves.

Pat and Mike tell me that you still need to respond to my other remarks. They work for me too, y'know.

:evilgrin:

would lay odds he is profitting from this war and further more if he takes a fall he can get pardoned. The judge assigned to his case is a Bushie. Light sentence; pardon; profit.

keep plummeting,don't look for his fellow republicans to support a pardon.They will run screaming from the source of their ills.He may not have the political power,when all is said and done,to pardon a player in the big lie.(well,a girl can dream!)

Brownie resigned and is still on the payroll and going to the office. Why not Scooter? Heck, they need his beautiful mind, so why waste it?

to run the country the way they want to. What would the framers of the constitution have to say about this usurpation and abuse of power, the lying? We have to get balance back with our congress. One prosecutor isn't going to care enough or be strong enough to bring balance.

I don't understand why this investigation would be pretty much over. If it just took Libby being able to obscure the clear view of things and then game over??? Plus if they let him plea bargain, who is to say he won't just continue to lie and not open up about the where, why and how.

I think congress needs to hold hearings to really open this thing up.

Also I think this whole smear campaign against Wilson might have been Libby's idea, but he got his information on how to do it from Cheney and others.

Cheney was the first to leak Plame's identity. He leaked it to Judy, which is why she sat in jail until she was assured she wouldn't be required to rat him out. And second, Libby is protecting Cheney on the WMD lies and the Niger forgery. He's taking one for the team. Though 30 years might change anyone's mind, unless a pardon is implicit.

I think it was immediately apparent that the Niger claims were phony, they knew they were phony, and they added the line attributing the claims to the Brits as cover. They HAD to back down quickly rather than have it scrutinized further.

But there may be something more there that they've concealed -- for example, the source of the forgeries; the number of sources who told them they were forgeries; or various other information (from inspectors, others) that undermined all their "mushroom cloud" claims.

(In fact, even while that was going on, it seemed to me there was some other reason for the invasion we don't know -- it just doesn't make sense. It seems to me it's about more than oil, more than PNAC military muscle-flexing, more than avenging Poppy against Saddam. I've always thought it had something to do with Reagan/Bush era scandals, but I don't know what it would be. In any case, I think it's the whole reason for Chimp's pResidency.)

and perhaps a little meditation. It's easy to jump to conclusions but I have the distinct impression that the answer lies much deeper.

While we're contemplating the two questions you posed, there is another, related question to ask:

Look at the text of the indictment.

Scooter lied on four (4) separate occasions and at times and places which were so obvious that he had to know he would be nailed for perjury, false statements and obstruction. Let me restate that:

Scooter KNEW he would be indicted.

In the same way the administration "gave up" so quickly in the original post, Scooter "gave up" quickly. He was, indeed, the firewall.

If I could still smoke, I would light my pipe and sit quietly and meditate on it. For now, I think I'll go for a walk in the forest.

More later.

mess in the first place...


2. LTTE's work. Right now, the media is not in the back pocket of Rover the Reaper. It's time to write until our hands cramp.

1. I think, ultimately, what is being protected is the FOREVER WAR. What is being covered up is the military industrial complex's desire to constantly sell arms. In order to do that, there has to be constant turmoil, and where there is none, that means they have to invent it. (the captured brits posing as iraqi insurgents points to this).
There was an excellent Ludlum novel titled "the aquitain progression" or something like that. I read it many years ago. Essentially, an international secret group of military leaders conspired together to foment unrest at various places in the globe, and then have themselves step in as saviours, and then once that happened, essentially martial law, they were to control the whole world with themselves as security and jailers. I will have to read that again sometime...very to the point in the current situation.

Let's boil down to shoe leather: What do the neocons want? Global American Leadership, on the surface. But I believe the "american" is not required. Its only that at present, america has the most resources to accomplish world domination. Just like Iraq was not a threat, but STRATEGICALLY, they were the first place to take before reshaping the "greater middle east".
What supports this is that the cabal seems unconcerned how they gut america economically, as long as they, like locusts, absorb all the meat themselves and discard the empty husks.
its like the huge military budget is not enough, they must also money launder social security, faith based initiatives, missing billions in Iraq, etc. Its as if they need to bankroll something BIGGER. And that is to take over the world. What stands in their way? Pesky american citizens.
So they have to control election outcomes, but even that is not enough...they have to find some excuse to create martial law and suspend citizen opposition completely. ONly then, can they start using the american wmd arsenal to blackmail the rest of the world to submission.
They can't be bothered with being labeled war criminals, and they can't allow the rest of the world to stop them...therefore they refuse to acknowledge the Hague, and send Bolton to dismantle the UN.

Am I paranoid? sure. But ask yourself what their priorities are...not what they SAY, but what they DO. They say they want democracy in Iraq, but they establish permanent military bases. They say they want freedom, but they completely control photo ops, and town hall meetings give any dissenting the bum's rush out the door..they cherry pick fawning sycophants... not freedom, then, is it?

I could go on, but if you get nothing else from what I say, watch what they do...that will tell you what they intend. Their words are all lies, so you can't trust their lips. Follow their money and how they utilize their resources. What is the end result?

This is so much BIGGER than Libby, and its even BIGGER than Cheney, its even BIGGER than WHIG and even BIGGER than the PNAC.....

the goal is world domination by a small military cabal.


everything else is just fluff.

what can we do about it? I'm open to suggestion. There are two problems in fighting them: their power, and their secrecy. We cannot do much about their power, but we can do something about their secrecy. We need to find ways to release the Abu Ghraib photos. We need to find ways to unmuzzle Sibel Edmunds. We need to shine as many lights as brightly as possible. They are cockroaches. We cannot kill them all, but we can make them scatter by flipping on the lights.

{1} What is the "something more important" that the VP's office is trying to protect, even if it must sacrifice Libby?

Specifically, that something is the fact that the Administration flatout lied to get its war. It mislead Congress and the American public.

But we can take it further. If that something I proposed above is true, then the first question must be WHY did they want this war? And why were they prepared to lie to all and sundry to get it. What agenda was really being served by the invasion of Iraq? And for me, that's the BIG something they're hiding.

You can go back further because the entire invasion of Iraq was prepped by 9/11, but that's a whole different story.


{2} What important steps should we, as the grass-roots progressive democrats, take to expand the pressure on the administration to reveal that "something more important"?

Disseminate information as far and wide as possible. That's all you can do.

what was discussed between these "oily" cons. I believe that the secret meetings are the basis towards the aggression against the Middle East. Also, corporations selling weapons to certain rogue nations. It's all about profit and power!!!!We need to find out what was discussed in the energy meetings!!!!

We've got a winner.

I would only add:

Guerilla warfare propaganda-pushback on our part:

Leaflets, flyers on the subways and buses, doctors' offices, etc.
Teach-ins (gotta inform and train young people)
Sit-ins, die-ins, protests
Billboards with key information highlighted
Research and expose criminal politicians (i.e., DeLay, Frist)on the web, letters-to-the-editor.

And global warming is just something else that brings chaos that they can take advantage of/profit from.


For more pessimism....


"The subservience of the Democratic Party is rooted in its class position. No less than the Republicans, it is a party of the capitalist ruling elite that defends the interests of American imperialism in the world. Its differences with the Bush administration are purely tactical. They concern the methods being employed, not the goals.

Thus Senator Durbin can denounce torture in Guantánamo, and Senator Kennedy can blast Rumsfeld’s incompetence or Bush’s lies, but not a single leading Democrat will say plainly that the war in Iraq is a predatory war of conquest, aimed at securing oil resources and a decisive strategic advantage for the United States over its imperialist rivals in Europe and Asia.

Both parties support the imperialist aims and goals of the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. But the failure to subdue the insurgencies in both countries has produced differences over how to proceed.

If the Republicans fear that any criticism of their conduct of the war opens the door to a Vietnam-style collapse of political support, the Democrats fear that the arrogance and incompetence of the Republicans are fueling opposition to the war, both within the United States and internationally...."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jun2005/rove-j25.shtml

Talk about the weak sister.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

They mean a lot.:)

They wanted an excuse to take out Sadamm, so they stirred up the ME without taking any significant action to protect the 'Homeland'. Like when you dare someone to knock that chip off your shoulder, only Osama used a 2X4 and caught them flatfooted. If it had been something more in line with the first attempt at the Trade Ctr or the Cole or even like OKC, they could have conflated it enough to crank it up throughout the region without too much notice (he would've upped Clinton's reactions to get Saddam in a bind). When 9-11 happened, they were shocked, think about GW's reaction in the school room and flying around the country. When the real hard asses peeled themselves off the floor, they decided it was time to 'shoot the moon'. Think back to the trifecta comment/joke. Only someone who secretly wanted this in his heart-of-hearts could make that kind of statement, hell, he used it as a punch line to point out his extreme good luck. (That is the moment it became clear to me that he wasn't some relatively harmless jerk and could possibly be a global sociopath.)

Think there are many other issues that have come from the VP side of the misAdministration (think about the Energy bill) that they had to cover, so Scooter has to do a Liddy and take the bullet in silence. KKKarl is to big a risk for them to give over easily, the fat boy would sing if twisted hard enough, he is only about power and control, he's not a 'true beliver'.

2)prove they stole the 2000 and 2004 elections, and fight for clean elections.

the forgeries themselves? The Niger Docs. I dunno-but that seems to be the key to me. If Cheney's office had not just knowledge they knew they were forgeries and didn't care-which we pretty much suspect or anyway-but if that could be proven OR the really big shifting of the universe-what if there is some proof, some link that they requested Mr. Shady Italian man-Rocco is it?-to forge them?

Not only did they use bogus intel-they had it made.

Maybe I'm dreaming but isn't that what Josh Marshall has been hinting at for a year? Isn't that the point that the FBI never really followed up on them? Isn't that what's behind Wilson? The Niger Docs. Planting WMD is a nice WHOA-they really were planting evidence-but proving that (if it ever happened) is got to be impossible-but the Niger Docs seem to be possible to link back to them (if it's true).

What should we do about it? Why demand an investigation by congress-cough-cough-I know it's been stalled by Republicans-into said documents.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1884715&mesg_id=1884715

"...Fitzgerald's spokesman, Randall Samborn, said the investigation will continue but with a new grand jury. The term of the current grand jury cannot be extended beyond today...."

I'm in a hurry, so I'm going to give the Reader's Digest answer...but I'll be back later, so feel free to ask me to expound. :hi:

1. Something more important

The short answer to this is a direct line from the Plame outing to the forged Niger docs to some shady arms sheltering/trading (that Brewster and Jennings was close to uncovering) to reverse diplomacy (designed to stir up rather than quell the Middle East) to 9/11 to the run up to 9/11 (baiting the Taliban) to the "secret energy meetings" Cheney held right after the Administration came into power.

In a nutshell, the something more important is the whole ball of wax. These people are so arrogant and ignorant that they built their house of cards on sand...one shake up and the whole thing comes tumbling down.

Before anyone asks...no I don't have links or evidence for paragraph one. This is all gut supposition on my part based on a careful reading between the lines and a good ability to read people.

2. What important steps

I'm almost afraid to answer this because I think it will sound too new agey or pollyanna-ish but I believe in my heart it's what we the people must do: we must say no. We must believe in our souls that truth and justice will prevail. And then we must live this belief every day. We must speak openly of the corruption and evil being done in our name and refuse to endorse it. We must call and write congressmen and women (regardless of what Frist says), and write letter after letter to the editor. We must run for public office and help others who are doing so. But most of all we must speak only to every person we encounter about what is going on. Power is something that is given, not taken. We the people have given our government too much power. We don't need to "take" it back. We simply need to stop giving them any more.

To often this society says politics is not part of polite conversation. I say evil and corruption don't deserve politeness.

Gotta run. I'll check back later to answer questions or flames. :evilgrin:

and contribute to completing the whole picture. I add to that the idea that they wanted to shut down the work V. Plame was doing. I think she and her group knew too much for them to sleep well at night. Had they uncovered the source of the forgeries, the final ripping off of the mask of the conspiracy that led us to war?

1. Indictment has "sixteen words" of felonly lying to Congress, laying groundwork that put Bush and his ability to pardon at risk.

2. Slow and steady. Rove and underlings at will. Libby plus whomever convictions as a base, pounce on rest at once just past '06 elections. Most important issue: vote counting.

"Sexing up the intelligence," that is.

{1} Marketing this invasion required sexy WMDs. But the product is defective and the ad campaign was a fraud. They need to cover up not just the marketing tactics, but their reasons for bringing this dangerous product to market in the first place.


{2} Steps: All we can do is continue to demand the truth and take over both Houses in 2006. Fitz is the only force on this planet that is not beholden to or intimidated by this cabal. I won't hold my breath and wait for the Fourth Estate to start acting responsibly, though I would certainly welcome it.

1. Cheney

2. Do what we do best; spread this information as far and wide as we can. Make phone calls to Dem and Rep senators and Congreessmen to keep the pressure on Congress. And right letters to the editors of various new papers across the country. We need a media campaign of our own.

When we see something bogus or false we need to call the writer or publisher out. Maybe we should let other news papers know that their competition was caught in a lie.

That's my two cents. Thanks again Water Man!

- stepnw1f

“Why did I write the article? Because I believe that citizens in a democracy are responsible for what government does and says in their name. I knew that the statement in Bush's speech — that Iraq had attempted to purchase significant quantities of uranium in Africa — was not true. I knew it was false from my own investigative trip to Africa (at the request of the CIA) and from two other similar intelligence reports. And I knew that the White House knew it.” cont.

“It has left our international reputation in tatters and our military broken. It has weakened the United States, increased hatred of us and made terrorist attacks against our interests more likely in the future.

It has been, as Gen. William Odom suggested, the greatest strategic blunder in the history of our country.

We anticipate no mea culpa from the president for what his senior aides have done to us. But he owes the nation both an explanation and an apology.”

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-wilson29oct29,0,4988049.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

about what is happening with the balance of power in the Middle East and how foreign affairs may be shaping what will ultimately happen to this administration in its current crisis: Should the case be swept under the rug, or sealed away indefinitely, because further investigations could cause a serious national security problem? Or alternatively, is it possible that shining some light on the situation may ultimately help the democratic process unfolding in Iraq?

After visiting a certain Saudi political website, I was a bit shocked to read some of the comments relating to balance of power theories and how our administration has utterly failed. The conclusion was drawn that not only have we already lost the war in Iraq, but we have demonstrated how powerless we are in dealing with military situations in the Middle East. Since Iran is now gaining in influence a miliary effort to counter it would require a huge draft, and would the Americans even stand for that? I'm not saying I necessarilly agree with these points of view, I just found it fascinating and I think the administration may have a lot more to worry about than its domestic legal problems.

Not so sure I have the answers. But I'll give it a whirl.

1. The something more important is the fact that the case for war was built on lies of course, however regarding this particular matter the VP conspired to leak VP's name. *TREASON* though Fitz may not be able to charge with that specifically he can charge with conspiracy among other tidbits.

2. What we can do? I think continue to support people like Conyers and others who are asking for an expansion into this investigation. We can push for congressional inquiries, write letters, encourge CNN and others when they question this administration etc. We can continue to do what we've been doing and but we'll have a more receptive audience right now. We must encourage our "leaders" to speak out, and never stop.

* In all honesty were it not for Wilson and those who supported him: Kerry, DU, H2O Man ;) and the underlying demand for truth, we'd probably be in the process of a draft and headed for war in Syria about now. The one thing I think we can be assured of is the PNAC agenda has had a serious detour. Because of this one indictment and the questions that now surround the Iraq War * is having a difficult time pursuing the PNAC dream. This is already a success for us and the nation, even if we fail to realize that fully. But, as you said We are not done.

:hi:

as concerns question 1.

question 2 much more difficult.


Initial Draft (Feb. 18, 1992)

1) Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to general global power.

2) The U.S. must show the leadership necessary to establish and protect a new order that holds the promise of convincing potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests. In non-defense areas, we must account sufficiently for the interests of the advanced industrial nations to discourage them from challenging our leadership or seeking to overturn the established political and economic order. We must maintain the mechanism for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role.

Latest Draft (April 16, 1992)

6) In the Middle East and Persian Gulf, we seek to foster regional stability, deter aggression against our friends and interests in the region, protect U.S. nationals and property, and safeguard our access to international air and seaways and to the region's oil. The United States is committed to the security of Israel and to maintaining the qualitative edge that is critical to Israel's security. Israel's confidence in its security and U.S.-Israel strategic cooperation contribute to the stability of the entire region, as demonstrated once again during the Persian Gulf War. At the same time, our assistance to our Arab friends to defend themselves against aggression also strengthens security throughout the region, including for Israel. (pg. 14)

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/Wolfowitz92memo.htm

Scooter and Paul Wolfowitz are the devious criminal minds behind the Bush gangster doctrine currently responsible for killing around 100,000 Iraqis. Scooter and Wolfowitz devised the Defense Policy Guidance document for Dick Cheney back in 1992. It is now more or less the Bush playbook for “pre-emptive force to prevent countries from developing weapons of mass destruction,” in other words invading Muslim countries that do not have weapons of mass destruction. It was also used as a blueprint when a clique of neocons cobbled together the criminal organization Project for a New American Century. Scooter’s lies were instrumental in the invasion of Iraq—for instance, the fairy tale one of Saddam’s intelligence agents met with supposed nine eleven “ring leader” Mohamed Atta. Scooter was so insistent this lie be included in Colin Powell’s dog and pony show at the United Nations he called him late at night in the eleventh hour and harangued him.

Scooter is a shameless criminal operator. It is said he rang the phones off the wall at the Pentagon after the Iraq invasion to make sure Halliburton received a contract to repair oil wells destroyed during the American invasion he formulated with Wolfowitz. As if to demonstrate crime is well-rewarded in Bushzarro world, Wolfowitz was appointed to run the World Bank, the largest conductor of neoliberal loan sharking on the planet.

As if to further demonstrate his criminal propensity, Scooter once told an aide he planned to stay on as Cheney’s top adviser until “I get indicted or something.” In other words, he understands full well he is a criminal and he thinks his crimes are cute and ingenious. “You never get in trouble for something you don’t say,” Libby also quipped, using an old Sam Rayburn maxim.

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=89

"Scooter once told an aide he planned to stay on as Cheney’s top adviser until “I get indicted or something.” In other words, he understands full well he is a criminal and he thinks his crimes are cute and ingenious."

A:

From complicity in 911, the Anthrax killer, and probably one or two planes falling out of the sky. In short, a laundry list of indictments for capital felonies.

The third rate burglary at the Watergate undid the clandestine work of the Plumbers, and I suspect the Nixon resignation deal and pardon managed to save other black ops of the Nixon administration, that may have forshadowed such things as: the existance of a MilIntel connection to the first drug cartels in order to 'fight FARC' then morphing into several Mena operations. Think of Iran Contra as the continuation of previous policy, rather than a rogue operation.

In just this way, the PNAC/Mil/Intel coalition might well have been setting up for a long protracted war(s) that would guarantee high oil prices and a cold war substitute for the forseeable future. War is the ulitmate system of social control, as Karl's ham-fisted manipulation of post 911 journalism clearly shows. War on Communism, War on Drugs, War on Terr'ists, it is the same game, stoked by the public trough.

A2:

PNAC does the work of extraction oligarchs, dating back to the nineteenth century, spiritually, and financially.

It may have its own agenda seperate from the Oil and Energy monopolists, but it was funded by them for the most part, and still drool when Cheney's and Ken Lay's buddies ring the bell.

What do the oligarchs want? A compliant, un-unitable mass of consumers without choices. Government for sale. A 'let's you and him fight' foreign policy, or rather, a world management policy for the global economy barons. It keeps everyone from complaining too much about the oily hand down their pants.

B: Get Ahnold and Kenny Boy in exactly the same situation Libby is in now. They are both players that know enough to fatally wound, not just the Cheney administration, but the whole energy machine.

Get Ashcroft on the stand in the Libby trial, and twist his wee heid until he sings.

B2: Nationalize Oil, Coal, Natural Gas, and Electricity.
Use the income wisely to fund an America that helps Americans, not the uber rich.

Start a planned shift in community and transit design. The 'free market' development community is the same glowing success as the 'free market' health care industry, which is to say, a festering wound on the Nation and its citizens.

Fitz mentioned how we were all harmed by this. A reporter asked for more details. Fitz didn't give any.

the "something more important" to protect is

911

all this other stuff that's going on is leading up to

the crimes of 911.........it's all connected at the roots!



What should we be doing? Be the media for the people around you! They will listen to you when it comes time to vote, if you tell them what the heck is really going on now!
Bama

That could be a lot more than 9/11.

It could be the stolen elections, the war, of course, and probably stuff we don't even know about.

{1} What is the "something more important" that the VP's office is trying to protect, even if it must sacrifice Libby?

How Cheney, et. al. have looted the federal government for personal gain. I believe this is related to the military budget and/or other clandestine operations (possible hatched in the OSP) unauthorized by the CIA, FBI or any other federal agency. As much as I believe this cabal is nothing but a bunch of murdering bastards, the American public does not seem to take much of an interest in our military interventions elsewhere on the planet. However, you tell the American public that as they struggle with gas costs, food costs, and just the basic necessities of life, these morons were enriching themselves. Follow the money. Much of the $$$ spent in Iraq is unaccounted for. No records of how it was spent or who received it.

How can something like that happen in the wake of Enron and the scrutiny on accounting practices? We're running record deficits and the leaders of America don't give a $hit? Why is that? They've got to be profiting personally? How? From this war.

{2} What important steps should we, as the grass-roots progressive democrats, take to expand the pressure on the administration to reveal that "something more important"?

I think Fitzgerald gave us a clue in his press conference. He explicitly stated that he would NOT be investigating the war in Iraq. He said that was in the political realm. He's right. The people investigating the rush to war and everything associated with it should be Congress. They are the ones that rolled over and got us into this mess in the first place instead of telling DimSon and Unka Dick HELL NO to invading any soverign nation without specific authorization from Congress. Well, we know we won't get anything other than a whitewash with a Republican House and Senate. We've got to do EVERYTHING we can to change the leadership and balance of power in Congress.

#1 - We've got to put our Dem congressmen/women on notice that we expect investigations into the conduct regarding everything associated with Iraq. How we got there and what we did when we got there.

#2 - We have to elect Democratic congressmen/women. Period. Laziness or apathy is NOT an option at this point. We have got to give as much as we can to viable candidates, put up signage, talk about the state of our country with our family members and friends.

We must gain control of the House and the Senate. Once this is established (hopefully '06), we need to press for investigations into ALL Bush administration scandals.

We need to keep in mind that we need to safeguard democracy for the generations to come. These neocons must be evicted from government and from ever being in a position to influence or implement policy ever again.

for trillions of dollars, waterman.

We have the map, the witnesses to the protection of the pipelines, the pumping of the oil by Halliburton unmetered, mind you those dollars don't come back to the taxpayers, so how do you get this many officials to continually push the war so effectively?

Those dollars are getting laundered somewhere into someone's offshore account.

Our job is to make sure they never get to enjoy spending that blood money.

1). Ask David Kelly. Ask Judy what David said the last time he spoke to her. What was it that he "could have said" ? Why did Judy want assurance her testimony would be to this story only ? (I STILL think they were trying to plant WMDs)

2). ?

In an SF Chronical column today, Debra Saunders says a couple of things about Wilson that I'd like your take on.

1. "Wilson wrote (in 2003) that his wife had "nothing to do" with the CIA sending him to Niger -- which the Senate Intelligence Committee debunked."

2. "Wilson's bio included information about his wife's employment at the CIA in 2003."

3. "Wilson asserted that his report on Niger utterly debunked the belief that Iraq was trying to obtain "yellowcake" uranium from Niger, but some intelligence analysts believed that Wilson's oral report supported the theory that Iraq had tried to get yellowcake in Niger."

These seem like RW talking points designed to "tarnish" Wilson (her word). I'm wondering what the truth of these statements is.

I assume she has been a past supported of * since she closes by saying she's disappointed with *. * could never have disappointed me . I knew from the start that everything * touched would turn to shit.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/10/30/EDGSHDTV0D1.DTL

working for VP Cheney, there are fewer available to answer your questions today. So it's fine you bring these questions to DU.

{1} I am not aware of Wilson ever using the words that you are attributing to him. He has said, and wrote, that she played no significant role in his trip. That is true. Those at the next level of authority within the Agency had been requested to re-examine the evidence that Iraq may have approached Niger in an effort to purchase yellow cake uranium. There was already a CIA report and a military intelligence report that agreed the story was false. But the vice president was not satisfied with these two reports.

In determining what approach to take, the authorities decided to approach Joseph Wilson, former ambassador to Niger, who was very familiar with the internal Niger processes involved in the production and sale of yellow cake. Mr. Wilson had also served in Iraq at the beginning of the first Gulf war, and was thus familiar with many of the key leaders from that country. Further, the Agency had used Wilson on similar investigations in African countries in the past.

These people asked Valerie to invite Joseph to the Agency to discuss their proposed trip. She commented on a memo that he was a good choice for the proposed trip. She brought him to the second meeting held at the Agency to discuss the proposal; neither Valerie nor Joe was at the first. Besides some CI people, there were a couple people from State at this second meeting. Valerie brought Joe in, and stayed for a couple minutes. One of the State officialss would later assume that indicated she had been the one who suggested sending him. All CI people involved have gone on record saying she did not play a major role.

Wilson has consistently said she played no significant role in sending him, which is true. Valerie was involved in the NOC programs; Wilson was going with official cover. The nexus, being the analysts, obviously study and interpret information from both.

Question #2 is a joke. Try not to converse with people who have IQs under 78.

Regarding #3, it is true that a delegation from Iraq had traveled through Africa, and that there was a discussion between one Iraqi official with a Niger official. The Niger official told Wilson that at the time, it seemed the Iraqi was interested in discussing something significant with him, but that the topic of yellow cake never actually came up. Looking back, the Niger official said that if the Iraqi had indeed been interested in a purchase of yellow cake, perhaps he was looking for an opening. But one never came up.

The Niger documents have been shown, without any question, to be forgeries. There was no evidence of nuclear weapon production to be found in Iraq after the US invaded. No yellow cake was mined in Niger with intent to be sold to Iraq; none mined turned up missing.

Wilson was, without any question, the single most qualified person in the USA for the CIA to send to Niger for the purpose of answering the questions of VP Cheney. He answered these questions. The VP's office did not like the answer, and much in the manner of the previous two investigations that came to the exact same conclusion as Wilson's, the VP's office refused to accept the truth.

1) The "something more important" being protected by Libby's sacrifice?

-- Criminal conspiracy at the top levels of our government.
This conspiracy may not have violated the explicit provisions of the laws involved, but most certainly violated the intent of those and other laws.


2) Steps we can take?

-- Demand accountability from our leaders of both parties. A full & open investigation of the facts, no matter where it goes, to the White House, to an examination of what led this country into war.

Advocate for politicians who will be honest & truthful to the american people. Work toward restoring integrity and responsibility to our government.

- Rabble rouse in the true american sense of the word. Truth! Justice! In the american way (from the bottom up if thats still possible)

the 40% who went along with them, and the other 20% who didn't want to make a fuss.

From post #64 in this thread, a quote from Joe Wilson:

"Because I believe that citizens in a democracy are responsible for what government does and says in their name. "

The Iraq war's cheerleaders, both within the official government and among the governed, took the administration's (false) evidence and used it to hype the war and shut down anyone who disagreed with them. Everyone from Noam Chomsky to the guy at the gas station.

If and when the real truths about why we warred on Iraq ever see and are confirmed in the light of day, that's a huge portion of the American populace who will be collectively guilty of persuing an unjust war. Of those 25% who were bellicose, their leaders will be out of power. The Republicans/conservatives want to never be out of power again.

that Libby's apparent protection of Cheney from possible criminal charges relating to the Plame case also protects what the Adminstration was trying to protect in 2003 when it admitted that the Niger claim should not have been included in the State of the Union. That's not necessarily the case. It's a possibility but even with what we think we know about the Niger docs, etc it's not clear or certain IMO that Libby's giving up Cheney re: conspiracy to smear Wilson and out Plame would necessarily lead to that something else.

In 2003 one would reasonably assume that the Administration was protecting the fraudulent basis for the Iraq war. The aluminum tubes story were given far more public play by the Administration than the Niger claims. And even that was being challenged in 2002. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A36348-2002Sep18?language=printer In January 2003 the IAEA also weighed in on the aluminum tubes issue, further discrediting the claim. Bush blew it off.

The Niger story was the icing on the cake for the claim that Iraq was attempting to reinstitute its nuclear program. But then why did the Administration take out the Niger claim from Bush's Oct 7, 2002 speech? Because Tenet raised a stink about it? According to Seymour Hersh's sources if they are correct, previously in September Tenet himself had told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about the Niger yellowcake "intel." And so did Colin Powell http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030331fa_fact1 Bolton we know put it back into the State Dept info that went to the UN in Dec to dispute Iraq's disclosures to the UN regarding what it had, or rather what it didn't have any longer re: WMD's.

Did Tenet insist on keeping the Niger claims out of Bush's speech to avoid public attention and dissemination because they were so dubious? He'd himself reportedly presented them in private as confidential info to the folks voting on the IWR. Did he not protest enough in regards to the inclusion of the 16 words in the State of the Union because it didn't matter anymore? The IWR by then was a done deal.

In Spring 2005 the wheels were already coming off in regards to those claims. The Niger docs were declared bogus in March as I recall. A State Dept rep (IIRC) publicly stated that they had been taken in. (Which pissed Wilson off of course and he spoke up on CNN about that statement.) In Britain and Australia the PM's were under attack for "sexed up" intel (also used by the Administration) to justify the Iraq war. In context Wilson and his story might have just had 15 minutes of media fame had the Administration not attacked him. They could blow him off and his story without attacking him in the particular manner they did. (Although attack and smear is their usual response.) They never let facts get in their way. Even the previous revelation that the Niger docs were bogus didn't give the administration any pause.

In 2005 one may also reasonably assume that Libby is stonewalling Cheney's complicity in an orchestrated and coordinated plan to smear Wilson, Plame and the CIA. And if Cheney lied to the Feds about various facts of the case that in itself is a serious charge.

It's already been established, even in the corporate media, that the US manipulated "intel" (some of which was just rumor and fabrications) to support the war. Justin Raimundo's articles, for example, among others re: the Niger forgeries, Ledeen etc certainly indicate that there is a target rich field for a serious investigation. http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=7743 Naturally the hope is that Cheney's involvement in the outing of Plame leads to proof that the Administration did more than just "sex up" the intel, but was complicit in fabricating it and knowingly perpetrated a fraud.

Wilson wrote that within days after Condi's June 8 comments on MTP it was an senior Administration official who suggested to him that he go public. (At one time I could have sworn he later in an interview identified that official as Condi, whether directly or indirectly through an contact of Wilson's, but I can't find the interview in which I thought I saw that. Perhaps I was confabulating.) Which makes me wonder, since they already had smear job ready and deployed (Libby/Miller June 23), if they were setting Wilson up to go public so they would have an excuse to attack him and his wife directly. (Or as some have suggested, an excuse to out Plame and compromise her work.)

But it's not clear to me, based on what we think we know now, that even if Libby gave up Cheney re: Plame that would necessarily open the floodgates to proof of further criminal activity, or the great "gotcha" that would bring down the Administration, beyond the leak itself. Would that it were so. But if there is indeed a "something more important" that would be revealed, jeopardized, would Libby be the only key to that who's in Fitz's grasp? What about Hannah and Wurmser? Hadley?

What am I missing, H20 Man? So many forests, so many trees. Is there another angle I'm just not seeing?

ALL roads lead to PNAC!

The PNAC conspired to defraud the American public. Their actions were treasonous. They're trying to salvage the PNAC Grand Experiment that's gone horribly wrong and save their own asses.

If the American public believed they were complicit in 911 or intentionally lied us into an immoral war for their own gain (when many Americans struggle daily with high gas prices and exorbitant medical costs) they'd demand nothing less than the death penalty.

I'm personally not a proponent of the death penalty but I'd be willing to make an exception when it comes to these evil bastards who have so seriously damaged our nation and the world.


What can we do? Educate our family, friends, and co-workers until Congress can no longer ignore our collective voice of outrage. Congress Critters are self-serving. If they want to be reelected, they damn well better LISTEN to their constituents. It's up to each and every one of us to enlist everyone we can to put their feet to the fire.