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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:08 PM
Original message
Can corrupt, evil people be taught ethics?
Its a rhetorical question, really.
:shrug:
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Of course they can be taught!
It's another question to ask if they will follow what they are taught though.

Anyone can be taught almost anything. You can't force anybody to comply!
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skylarmae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. this whole ethic's class is so insulting
he's always playing catch-up and our nation suffers because of it.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Exactly! Not necessarily trying to play catch up as it were. It's more
like trying to act like they are moral after being caught not being. Ah geez these people make my head hurt! But you're right, our nation suffers for their hideous behavior! Blow job my arse! :banghead: And NOW what shall we tell our children? :grr:
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tiptoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. He's not "catching up"....He's covering up and posturing for PR purposes..
Edited on Sat Nov-05-05 08:33 PM by tiptoe
Neocons consider themselves "Beyond Good and Evil", "whirlwinds of energy" and "creative destroyers" and thus "beyond democracy and the constitution."

...and I suspect the Plame exposure and political retribution against Joe Wilson was not the WH's primary intent, but rather a necessary, strategic preliminary distraction for the media event that followed days later: the deliberate exposure of -- for purposes of neutralizing -- the entire Brewster-Jennings WMD monitoring network, and whatever (and whomever) that network may have been "onto".

Bolton, as UnderSecretary of Strategic Arms Control, may have had access to information that network was processing.

And Condi Rice baited Joe Wilson to go public with his investigation into the Niger-uranium story, weeks before the July story.

Ethics? This affair appears more like a deliberated scheme, rather than some "reckless oversight" calling for a "refresher lectures on general ethics rules, including the rules of governing the protection of classified information." That Cheney and Libby, with years of experience and familiarity in this area, felt it necessary to take the risks they did only speaks to the gravity of the matter they were seeking to protect. Of course, they did this in knowledge they work for President "Get Out of Jail Free."

Do they care about how posterity will remember them?

Nope.

They are "Beyond Good and Evil"...and therefore "Creators of Values"...in power because of a stolen election...and happy to rip off whatever they can (Cheney's "It's our due.")...and be on their merry way.

Democracy? The Constitution?

See: HIJACKED REPUBLICANS
Here are current administration players in their own words...

"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it to the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." Grover Norquist, on NPR 2001
Grover Norquist is the mastermind of the radical fiscal policies, behind which there is definitely a hidden agenda. He is a Washington power broker who oversees coordination of administration players through a weekly breakfast, attended by all branches of government.

“Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture, and cinema, to politics and the law. Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be) and shames them for their inability to keep pace. … <W>e must destroy them to advance our historic mission.”
Michael Ledeen
Michael Ledeen is a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a major think tank, and influential with Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.

“We are different from previous generations of conservatives. We are no longer working to preserve the status quo. We are radicals, working to overturn the present power structure of this country.” Paul Weyrich
Paul Weyrich is founder of the Heritage Foundation, which has itself been at times called a shadow government, due to its influence with leaders.

This might not sound so alarming, unless you realize that they carry no great allegiance to the structures of democracy, nor to the Constitution. Or unless you realize that they carry great influence and can see the traces of that influence in the actual deeds of the administration.

“Third, our current system institutionalizes amateurism. Unlike European parliamentary democracies, we have no 'shadow cabinet', no group of experts who are groomed by their party for decades before they take high office. ...If we are going to be a serious nation, we need a serious system for selecting our leaders and advisors. We need some type of shadow government, in which leaders and top advisors can be identified and developed.” Paul Weyrich, The Heritage Foundation

...

“One of the steps for getting there is a permanent Republican government, in the sense of fifty-five Republican senators and a thirty-vote margin in the House and a Republican President for twenty years in a row. That’s when you can do to the left what the left did to us in the thirties and the forties.”
Grover Norquist, on how to accomplish the one-party rule


ergo: built-in Election System Fraud ...in place, still, for 2006 and 2008...background links below.
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Snotcicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. I think as close as you can bring them is to mimic. n/t
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Its rhetorical but I'll answer it.
I think the reason they cannot learn them is that they will always think of the world in terms of deceit...Many of them love christianity because they believe it makes people trusting and easy to exploit. Similarly they will love ethics, but all the while they will be thinking of ways they can manipulate people who have them.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. But interesting. Think about the examples of this...
in history and literature.

What does it take? My favorite, of course, is a Christmas Carol...all we need is a few ghosts with some spare time on their hands...

Who else has really turned over a new leaf and shocked the world with their new self? Examples both real and fictional might be highly illuminating.

What sort of genesis creates the kind of radical change we're talking about here?
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Real repentance, real regret. taking responsibility
for the terrible pain they have caused so many people.

This is probably more like a course on how not to get caught.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:05 PM
Original message
So before we go forward, lets look to the past..examples?
Who's been a total evil ass in the past, and then turned it around? If anyone here can think of an example...what were the pressures/inspirations that did it?

Right now I'm pulling a Reality blank...and even the examples from fiction seem pretty extremely unlikely.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. Is a class really needed after Junior looks into their hearts?
:silly:
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. Refresher course, where is the sign in for



the first course?
That should be a matter of public record.

I'm serious, we need to see who was in attendance, how long did they stay, who taught the class and ALL the details.

Who will teach it this time, Mr. Enron?

Of course , I don't think they attended because they wouldn't believe it applied to them.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. Once people choose to be evil...
Can they grow a conscience? I truly doubt they can become ethical. So how would you ever know if they were able to learn/be taught?
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. "Clock-Work Orange" Comes to Mind
Strap them into chairs and force their eyes open, facing a screen that shows them their own destruction, over and over again.
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Digit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
10. I am of the opinion that you have them or you don't
Oh, they can "teach" ethics all they want.
I just don't believe they will put it into practice.
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sandrakae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. No, because they will all cheat on the final exam.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Authoritarian and punitive view of life
I believe the world is made up of certain types. One of those is the authoritarian/punitive individual. These people admire militaristic civilizations where punishment is routinely meted out and there are very segregated classes. I think the Christo-fascists and Republicans fit perfectly into this mold.

What makes them this way? Perhaps sociopathological tendencies they were born with, growing up in an abusive environment, or with abusive or punishing parents or guardians.
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claudiasp Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. Can corrupt, evil people be taught ethics?
I really don't belive that they can
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. Leaders who believe in P2 covert operations, lying, fraud, and
...conquest are beyond ethics. Ethics are for the dumb, ignorant masses. It is the duty of the Machiavellian/Straussian elites to lie to public, create pretexts for war abroad and oppression at home, attack their enemies, and take what they want from whomever they choose to victimize. The good of the state just happens to coincide with their offshore corporate accounts. The US is no more, reduced to the status of a south American fascist regime.

Machiavellian virtue involves the utter rejection of ethics.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. But sociopaths CAN be taught to have the appearance of ethics.
Bushco thinks it's all "imaging" anyway.
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. I don't think corrupt, evil people can be redeemed (taught) -
barring some sort of miracle in .1% of them.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. You can only control them by punishment & rewards. When they see
a hole in the law..they will take it.

Their followers can be appealed to to act like adults & think for themselves and about the type of world they want to live in.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. No they cant
Evil is is their genes, its oozes from their pores.

Evil isnt learned but it is an instinct some people are born with. RePukes seem to have a huge concentration of these people. Either that or the evil agenda draws evil into it.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-05 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. Still looking for a RL historical Example of such a turnaround
Outside of literature and fiction...been asking some friends. Paul in the Bible etc...

But none of us have been able to come up with a world leader who was a total ass when in charge who then became a decent human being afterwards.

It seems that Absolute Power may in fact Corrupt Absolutely.

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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-05 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. Mafia family counseling? John Belushi did something
Edited on Sun Nov-06-05 06:13 PM by happydreams
on this way back in the 70's on Saturday Night Live.

"How do you feel John?"
"Nunya bidness!"
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