2 More Horrific Pit Bull Attacks (3 10-year-olds in Hospitals IL CO)

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting sick of reading these stories and am rapidly going to the side of banning these dogs. I used to defend the dogs and call it bad owners, but maybe the crappy breeders have corrupted this breed too badly to be salvaged. 2 horrific attacks this past week in Illinois and Colorado. I live in a neighborhood where a lot of the young toughs have pit bulls and while I own a gun I'm thinking of getting a baseball bat and keeping it by the door just in case.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-dogs07.html

The loyal friendship between 10-year-olds Nick Foley and Jourdan Lamarre turned them into heroes as they each tried to save the other during a savage attack by three rampaging pit bulls.

The youngsters were being treated for their injuries Sunday at Lutheran General Hospital, where Nick was in critical condition and Jourdan was in serious condition.

Nick Foley is "in bad, bad, bad, bad shape,'' said McHenry County Sheriff Keith Nygren.

"All three of the dogs were on him. ... this was horrific.'' The youngster has severe bites to his arms, back and buttocks, Nygren said.

The attacks left six wounded in the stunned Cary-area neighborhood before the animals were fatally shot by officers.

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_3176881

Aurora - Neighbors hearing a boy's screams Wednesday afternoon ran to a fenced-in backyard and saw a pit-bull attack so horrifying that one man continually broke down after emergency crews arrived.

Three pit bulls were mauling a 10-year-old boy who lives at the home in the 16400 block of East Asbury Avenue. One dog wouldn't let go of the boy's throat.

"It looked like it was eating him," said neighbor Angalique Martin, who along with two men and a teenager grabbed tree limbs and a baseball bat to chase the dogs away.

The dog that had the boy's throat wouldn't release him until the shouting men came within 10 feet. Once the dog ran off, Martin scurried to comfort the injured boy while the others formed a circle to keep the dogs away.

Makes me glad for this bill in our country, maybe the US should have it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_Dogs_Act

:scared:

breeds as . . . greyhounds.

You need to be VERY careful about legislating which types of animals are and are not permissible.

he said if a pit bull comes for you, the first order of business is to decide which arm you are more willing to live without and use it to protect your face and throat. Never face the dog square on as it sees that as an act of aggression and it makes you more vulnerable. Keep the side you can most afford to lose the arm from towards the dog and do not run.

This guy really loves dogs and used to defend the breed, but no more. His professional opinion agrees with yours: Bad breeding has made them too dangerous to allow in ANY urban setting. They must be under control at all times or destroyed.

Am beginning to think this K9 specialist might just have a point.

OK, flame away, but know I love dogs and dislike ill mannered kids who torment them, but have also seen some damage done to an innocent kid who got lucky and lived.

And, I am undecided on this issue.

But thanks for the perspective

Haven't had my second cup o joe and not really ready for a brawl. Posted anyway; fully expect one.

But I have had the good fortune of getting to deal with several people who do dog raising, training, rescuing, and vets and they ALL said basically the same thing about the breed (as currently known in the US) as the (professionally acclaimed) cop dog trainer.

Have personally seen the damage done to a kid who was not known to the dog who attacked and therefore had no history of torment the dog. Also have a daughter who managed to face one down when she was in high school and lucky... She knows a lot about dealing with dogs and she did everything right. Even so, she knew how lucky she was to come out of the encounter unharmed.

She shook and cried so hard it took a bit of time to coax the story out of her when she got home. As the event happened in a park, just beyond our property, she greatly feared what would happen with the little kids walked through on their way home from school... We called animal control and they were there within minutest to get the dog. There had just been two attackes on kids in town within a couple weeks before her encounter.

Bad people have done bad things to make one breed of man's best friend unsafe in society.

is that I don't think any training can be passed within the breed.

Someone conditions a dog to be angry and aggressive, and then breeds it, and I don't see that really impacting the offspring.

A critter is gonna be what it was born to be. Genes count.

To paraphrase one of the hippies on Futurama.

:evilgrin:

eye on gate and plan how i stick arm out and let dog chew as my oldest gets into house, i protect baby and yell for owner. i visualized for years, as i stood guard infront of my babies. and i taught both as they grew and walked and ran, how to do it. yup

But then I know how to use one. Don't suggest this to anyone who isn't qualified.

And I would be such a pest with the local police and animal control that they would stalk the dog waiting for it to sneeze wrong so they could take it in.

Yelling for the owner during an attack is likely to only aggitate the dog more. The only way to insure your children's safety is to deal with the dog before he attacks a person. He already has a history of aggression to start from. You and the owner of the rotti, along with other neighbors need to let authorities hear about every act of aggression by this dog.

Your kids have a right to expect vicious animals will not attack them in their own front yard and at this point, I would venture to say, that is not the case in your neighborhood. If the dog can get out to attack a rotti, he is not being controlled, period, and all kids and dogs (and possibily adults0 in the area are at risk.

Get some backing from community and get that dog removed. We do not want to have to console you if it gets loose again and attacks. There would be no way to make that situation better.

Good luck.

and an owner has a right to own this dog. he also flies a confederate flag. had 58 weapons pulled out of his house, with silencers and machine guns. has been charged for trafficking drugs and the dea tells us his record is clean. sometimes,. the law and others wont help.

it is down to guns and who will kill who.

oldest boy knows guns, hubby lifetime with guns..... lol , i dont like them, at all. ed wants to teach me. i dont want to learn.

i am just an over cautious, overprotective parent and have made boys fearful of said dog so we dont get hurt.

i am sharing this becasue, we need to realize all kinds of situations. a person may see a cute little (not Little) animal that loves. some of us dont. and we have good reason not to. just another side of the story

that person is setting the stage for the dog's demise, not the person who finally has to put the dog down.

And you are NOT being over cautious and overprotective. Fear is not always the wrong emmotion for a situation.

Contact your local shelter, some area vets, trainers and see if you can build a coilition to help rid the 'hood of this threat, either by way of making sure the owner ALWAYS has the dog contained in a manner which the dog can NEVER escape (includes when dog is transported outside its yard), making the neighbor move to an unpopulated area or destroying the animal.

You are NOT being overprotective to worry about small kids and a dog that has attacked a rotti! The fear thing is a problem as dogs can sense it and tend to pick easy targets. They are not stupid. And a pitt that knows he has you buffaloed is VERY dangerous.

and stick it in its eye...should get its attention for a moment.

I have no use for these animals, for the same reason I have no use for hand guns. Flame away, freedom lovers. I've seen too many owners say "he's just as gentle as a lamb" after the dog has ripped some baby's lungs out. The current laws let these animal owners off way to easy. Its like leaving a loaded gun on the table for a toddler.

I love dogs, own dogs, only take rescue dogs, but NEVER a pit bull. Euthanize them.

Thank all the Gods!!!


http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/news/2004/20041026-pitbulls-nr.asp

That's my Belle Starr.

I think what people don't realize is that dogs were bred to perform various tasks. In Belle's case, the Sheltie blood in her is strong. She herds. If left to her own devices, she will herd *anything* she can -- the cats, the kids, me.

I was having a big problem with this until I realize that there wasn't anything mean or wrong with her, it was simply her nature. We've since joined a herding club and she has her needs fulfilled (which means she no longer wishes to herd the cats, kids and me).

Now, in the case of pit bulls, you have to ask yourself what they were bred to do. For years and years, Pit Bull lines were modified so that only the most agressive, best stock was brought out. Unfortunately, now people (who, IMO, probably shouldn't even be pet owners or parents 99% of the time) are trying to keep dogs that were bred for agression as family pets. It's difficult to go against nature.

bring out their aggressive natures for generations. Just as some dogs are bred to hunt, some to retrieve and some to herd, pit bulls have been bred to fight and kill. I don't know how long it would take, if ever, to selectively breed these traits out of this particular breed of dog.

I have known some pit bulls that were good natured dogs and have never harmed anyone, but I don't think I could ever trust one and I sure would never own one. As a breed, I think they are inherently dangerous.

My favorite breed is mutt. When I'm asked about my dog, I refer to her as a "Darwin".

If you will do any sort of research on the breed, you will find that pits were bred to be aggressive towards other animals, not to humans. In fact since it was humans that were constantly handling the dog, if any animal they had exhibited any sort of aggressiveness towards them, that dog was put down. That is why up until thirty years ago or so, pits were considered to be the ideal family dog.

Now with all of these asshole owners picking up the dog and training it to be vicious, the pit bull has gotten a really bad rap. But it isn't the fault of the dog, it is the fault of the owners. Sadly though we as a society don't hold the owner responsible, instead we wrongly condemn a whole breed, and systematically set out to destroy them. Would we do this with a race of humans? No, so why are we doing it with a breed of dog? Instead, let us hold these irresponsible owners to task for creating these vicious animals, not try to wipe out an entire breed that is, for the most part, made up of friendly, happy, good natured dogs.

It has been proven time and again that somebody can take any dog, from a toy poodle to a great dane, and with the proper application of training turn it into a vicious killing machine. Blaming the actions of these owners on the animal is wrong. The animal is just as much a victim as the person they attacked, for they always pay the ultimate price for the sins committed by their owner, yet the owner generally walks away scott free.

See my below post. If you know an a**hole, sooner or later he will get a pit bull. Sad.

with the increased desirability of the breed (as much as pit bull can be called a specific breed) by those who want a "bad-ass" dog, the entire breed suffers. However, I still maintain that certain traits that have been bred into a dog for generations, may make that breed unsuitable for the family pet. I don't think you can train these traits out of a dog.

I have met some pit bulls that were fine dogs with a good disposition. This does not prevent me from a certain level of distrust for the entire breed. You cannot tell by looking which ones will remain good natured and the ones who will snap one day and attack.

About other so-called "mean breeds". When I was a kidk, it was German Shepards, as a teenager it was Dobermans, now it is pits and rotties. Yet once you take away the asshole owner factor, and these dogs fall out of favor for being the latest bad dog on the block, then you wind up with a breed that is absolutely great. And the same will happen with pits. Here in a few years pits will fall out of favor, and then we will see the screaming headlines that Irish Wolfhounds or St. Bernards or what have you are killing and maiming kids. Again, it isn't the breed, it is the owner who trains the dog to be a vicious beast.

As I stated earlier, up until about thirty years ago, pits were consdiered great family dogs, friendly, intelligent dogs who weren't vicious. Have you ever seen the kind of brutal training that it takes to turn a pit vicious? You literally have to beat the dog to within an inch of its life before it becomes vicious, and sometimes not even then. I have a pit mix that I picked up off the street. The poor girl was starving, cowering from being beaten, and had a choke chain on her that required bolt cutters to take off. Yet despite all of her torments she is the sweetest most loving dog you could ever wish for.

Any dog, no matter the breed, will become vicious if you abuse it long enough. In fact it take an extraordinary large amount, more than it would take with many other breeds, for it a pit to become vicious. Yet our society continues to punish the dog and the breed for the actions of the human owner. Rather than coming down with both feet on the breed, let us come down with both feet on the owner. If we don't, we're just insuring that there will be further dog attacks, not just by pits, but by all manner of breeds.

And just for your information, the top dog in the human biting category isn't the pit bull, german shepard, or any of the other notorious "vicious" breeds. It is the cocker spaniel, a wonderful ankle biter if I ever saw one. You cannot tell by looking at ANY dog which one is friendly, and which one will be vicious. You have to observe the dog and interact with it before you can make that determination. And that goes for any breed of dog, not just pits.

the problem with Pits is their popularity. I know that they were not originally bred to be aggressive to humans, but not all breeders are responsible persons who have the best interests of the dog in mind.

You are right in saying that you cannot tell by looking at ANY dog whether they are friendly or vicious. However, a vicious pit bull has more likelihood of inflicting serious injuries than most other breeds due to their powerful jaws.

There are still "rings" of breeders who breed these dogs to fight -- to the death. Sort of like cock-fighting. They breed for aggression, and if any of these dogs end up dumped, and in the breeding population ...
I hate to say this, but the breed also tends to attract assholes. (no offense to pit owners on this board.) The jerk next door (now gone) had two pits, male and female. He used to beat the male, Buddy, with a two-by-four, although I never saw it personally. I will never forgive myself for not calling the cops on him. One day, Buddy attacked him -- and nearly killed him -- for going after the female. He shot Buddy and killed him -- so he thought. Turned out the dog was alive and crawled up to the door. Had to have him put down.
Poor Buddy. All he wanted was someone to love him. He usually wouldn't let you get near him, because he was afraid of people -- had been beated once too many times. He used to come and hang around me when I was gardening, and every now and then would let me pet him.

There needs to be more HUMAN accountability in these cases.

Dangerous dogs need to be put down.

But banning breeds will not be effective in eliminating dangerous dogs. Two things would happen: 1) an exploding black market in the banned breed and 2) trashy breeders would start making vicious dogs out of other breeds.

Not to mention the difficulty in defining "breed". Dogs being dogs, how do you define "pit bull"? It isn't a breed defined by the AKC.

Is a pit bull a dog that "looks like" a pit bull? What about bulldogs? boxers? bullmastiffs? or any number of crosses thereof?

I'm not saying there isn't a problem. There clearly is. But "breed bans" are not the solution. Greater human accountability is.

I can't tell you how many people would express fear about my "dangerous" "pit bull" when walking my dog as a kid. Yes, she was a barrel-chested dog with a big square head, but she was a boxer and the most loving, if astonishingly lazy dog ever, very patient with kids and never agressive. People would back up and sometimes cross the street to be away from her. Because they were afraid of any dog that even looks like a pit bull, no matter how well-mannered. :eyes:

Same dog. Different names.

I raised English bulls for a few years and the bitch was a bad dog. She hated smaller dogs. I did not realize this until I had already bred her. I got rid of her after she bit me badly but I kept one of the offspring. He appeared to be a wonderful dog. I castrated him because of the bad dog history but kept him in the family. About two months ago he was on the couch with my almost 2-year old grandson when suddenly he attacked him. I don't mean snapped at him, I mean jumped on him snarling with the intent to kill him. I was next to him on the couch and had my laptop on my lap, which I used to beat the dog with, but that didn't stop the attack. My husband grabbed the dog by the neck and could only dislodge the child by punching the dog repeatedly in the face. A bulldog has a strong, wide face and jaws of death.

The dog was destroyed an hour later.

The baby was fine physically. The dog had not broken the skin yet. I can be pretty stoic about doing what has to be done with a bad animal and we put the dog in the car and took it immediately to the vet.

I am sticking with dachshunds and labs. The bull baiting dogs are cool looking but I am no longer interested. Not with very young children around. A dog can be a lethal thing.

I'm glad to hear your grandson is okay. :hug:

to the smaller, kinder, non-mean bred animals, shall we?

I just can't defend the pits and rotties. I just can't. I've seen the damage, I've witnessed so many dead dogs and injured humans, I can't defend them.

They need to be banned.

She had no control over that dog and it attacked my dog once. I put my hand between the bull dog's mouth and my dog's throat and ended up with a puncture wound from one of her teeth. After that, my dog was never in the common areas when that dog was around, but once when I went out to check the mail, the dog came after ME. It was horrifying, but fortunately the owner's boyfriend was there to get her under control.

When bad people neglect thier dogs' socialization or train them to be agressive, this is the tragic result. When backyard breeders crank out puppies for profit, this is one of the problems that they cause.

The problem is not the dogs. When cared for properly, pit bulls are usually very affectionate.

BUT certain breeds should never be left alone with children. Which, of course, is also a people issue.

Our English bull was raised lovingly, but his genes were bad, I guess.

as much for the dog's protection as the child's. Especially since kids are loud and the move fast, so they can frighten a normally well-behaved dog into misbehavior.

there is only ONE youngster I will allow him to be with when I am not in the room with them too. The 90 Pound Hound thinks she must either be his litter mate or his puppy... She is excellant with all critters and I have had a hand in her raising so I trust HER.

The dog, I trust implicitly. But I will not allow any small person to be near him without suppervision...period. A dog is entitled to respect and proper treatment and little tiny people don't understand that while some older ones just refuse to acknowledge it. So even with a breed as kindly as a Golden, there is supervision at my house. A dog, any dog, is a powerful thing and built to take care of business. People need to recognize that fact and respect them.

But pit bulls? Even I won't deal with them as I do no think I have the physical strength to break their necks like I was taught to do in event of a dog attack. I am more comfortable encountering a pack of coyotes than one pit bull. You can reason with coyotes, and even the ferral dogs in a pack I have encountered. I would not even try it with a pit bull.

We have a beautiful, sweet, mini dachschund who digs in the yard to beat the band. She dug up my entire garden, $600 worth of bushes and plants, not to mention the cost of the labor.

It is her nature to dig. She burrows because her breed was bred to burrow.

I would not ever have a dog around children that was potentially deadly. It is irresponsible.

have been bred for generations to fight and to kill. It's part of their personality just as surely as it is the nature of some dogs to hunt, retrieve, herd etc. Training and socialization can help, but you cannot train these traits completely out of these dogs.

but they're generally bred for dog agression, not for agressiveness to people. When they're not bred as pets, with pet traits in mind, as they have been for generations.

that do not have these aggressive traits, toward other dogs or humans, it is a mystery to me why anyone would wish to own this breed. To me, it is like having a fused bomb around the house, but you have little or no control of the detonation switch. It is impossible to predict when even the best-natured of these dogs will go off. I can't see where it is worth the risk of owning one.

I'm not blaming the dogs, but I am blaming the breeders -- they are the ones responsible for breeding to bring out the most agressive dogs possible. (That's how the breeders made money, by fighting the dogs.) The breeders looked to the widest mouths, the tightest skin, the "killer instinct" and best muscle structure.

While I have little doubt there are some of this breed out there who are gentle souls, they are the exception and not the rule. As such, I will never own one nor will I ever trust one, even one that has earned a "good citizenship" award at obedience class.

Three things:

1) Showing of teeth is an act of agression to a dog. For humans, it's known as smiling.

2) Direct eye contact is an act of agression to a dog. For human, it's known as looking.

3) Reaching out is an act of agression to a dog. For a human, it's known as touching.

Smiling, looking and touching are things that children do naturally and something dogs, even good natured ones, don't always understand. When you combine the pack-mentality with a breed bred for agression, people, usually trusting children who only want to pet the puppy, are going to get hurt.

and children can and should be taught how to behave around dogs (I've taught hyperactive four year old boys how to handle cats, by comparison dealing with dogs is a cinch.)

If my child wants to run down the sidewalk in our neighborhood, he/she should not have to worry that the act of play will incite an act of violence.

I agree with you that all child-dog interactions should be supervised, but that isn't always possible. This particular breed is known for agression. That is, a child walking by... a child on the other side of a fence... a child on a public walking trail... a woman gardening... even, as evidence above, a child sitting on the sofa.

In short, people should not have to walk on eggshells around dogs, worried about what thing they might do which will spark the dog to attack.

which is what leash laws, fencing requirements, etc are all about. They shoudl be strictly enforced, as much for the good of the dogs involved as people.

I totally agree that all child dog interactions should be supervised by an adult. Biting and mauling would be decreased considerably if current leash laws were enforced and if tethering (chaining) animals was outlawed. We have neglected unsocialized dogs getting loose. there should be a minimum size for pens also. communities which have passed these laws have seen there maulings decrease considerably.

Walking my son to school, one way, I have to face a giant german shepherd, and a pit bull. The other way, I have to face some giant black thing -- I don't even know what kind of dog it is -- and a rottweiler. When I used to jog, I was never chased, but some dumbass put a pack of rotties behind a tall hedgerow, and one of them was trying its damndest to get through that hedge and kill me.

To tell you the truth, even though the dogs seem relatively well caged, I don't like to be fucking snarled at and barked at, violently, on what would otherwise be a peaceful morning walk.

I was at the pet shelter the other day, and I had my four-year-old son with me, and we had to walk by the dog cages to get to the cats, and since there only glass windows, that started about rib-high, the dogs couldn't see my son (they're all abandoned pit bulls and pit bull mixes, of course, because some idiot got one, and then can't handle it) -- but when I held him up, two of those dogs sprang to life and started barking and snarling at him like they were looking at a ribeye.

I hate those fucking dogs. Let me say it, again. I. HATE. THEM. -- and I am very cool to people who own them. I too, as the OP said, am thinking about getting a gun, because of all of these murder dogs in a three-block radius.

I personally think that the breed shouldn't be banned, but that I have a) free reign to shoot ANY dog that makes me scared that puts it's toenail on my property b) that animal control should make a $500 fine MANDATORY for ANY dog that is unsupervised and c) that the owners of any dog that attacks and kills anyone should be charged with murder, and d) that any dog that injures anyone should be killed, and the owners charged with attempted manslaughter.

My goal is to not see the dogs dead, but for people to understand what can happen, and be a goddamn NAZI at keeping their dogs supervised, fenced and under control. That's all I ask. People can keep their murder dogs, if that trips their trigger, but they'd better damn well be ready to be ever-vigilant at tending to it.

It is people with such ignorance as yours that not only give entire breeds bad names, but also raise badly mannered and possibly psychotic dogs. Lets go through your list one by one shall we, and please pay attention and learn, OK.

1. Smiling IS NOT considered an act of aggression by a dog. In fact if you would observe dogs, you would notice that most of them also smile when they're happy. They pull the corners of their mouth up, much like humans, and may or may not bare some teeth. This IS a doggy smile. You are confusing this with a dog's snarl, in which the part of the lip next to the nose is drawn up and some teeth are exposed. A human example would be the Elvis snarl. Most dog snarls are accompanied by a soft growl that will get louder.

2. Direct eye contact is not considered an act of aggression per se in a dog's lexicon. It is more a sign of dominance, a way of non-violently figuring out who the alpha dog is. If a human makes direct eye contact with a dog, it will look away nine times out of ten, if not more. In fact this is one way to that humans can establish their dominance over strange dogs.

3. Reaching out IS NOT considered an act of aggression by a dog. Yes, if you suddenly thrust your hand in the face of a strange dog, it might bite your hand out of fear of this sudden, startling action. Hell, though, if you did that to me, I might bite your hand to. Rather than engage in such abrupt actions with strange dogs what you need to do is introduce yourself to the dog calmly. Squat down(so that you're more on eye-level with the dog), extend your hand towards the dog, palm down, and let the dog sniff you a bit. Don't be nervous or excited, just be calm. After the dog sniffs you over, and possibly licks you, you can gently stroke the dog, pet the dog and get to know that dog further. But if you go rushing up a dog, thrusting yourself in its face, you will suprise it, and make it nervous and fearful.

And as for as your characteristics for a "killer pit" you are completely out in left field. I used to work with animals, both at the humane society and as a vetrinary assistant for a number of years, and picked up many of the desirable traits of all breeds, including those looked for in fighting dogs. First off, these people don't look for the "widest mouths", for that is impractical in a fighting dog. Wide jaws in pits equate to shallow bites, not the quality you're looking for in a fighting dog. Secondly, they're not looking for "tight skin". In fact if you notice in all of the fighting dogs, pits, bulldogs, etc., they all tend towards very loose skin, and there is a very good reason for this, it makes that dog more difficult to kill. More skin to chew through, vitals more protected, etc. And as far as "killer instinct" goes, you really can't breed that into a dog. You really have to train that in a dog, and in pit bulls, that training almost always has to take the form of extreme beatings and other abuse. In fact it is amazing what a gentle loving pit puppy has to go through in order to become mean, for their natural disposition towards humans is quite gentle. And even with the beatings, some of these dogs just refuse to be mean, and they wind up either dead or in a pound.

I would suggest that you do some more research on this subject before you opine about it. Spouting off your opinions and half truths only makes you look foolish to those of us who know, love and work with dogs all of our lives.

Smiling (i.e. baring teeth) is viewed by dogs as an agressive move. When you approach a dog for the first time, you should not smile. You should move slowly and non-threateningly toward the dog in a lowered posture (as you stated above).

Direct eye contact is viewed as an agressive move... perhaps better stated as dominance assertion. (And, yes, most dogs will lower their eyes when you look at them -- that's because most dogs are submissive and non-agressive.)

Reaching out with the palm going first, as most humans are prone to do, is an act of agression to a dog. Place yourself on the floor and let your significant other tower above you while coming down with a hand to pet your head. Most dogs have learned that this motion is an act of love (i.e., petting and scratching), but to an untrained dog it is viewed as a move to hit and hurt.

So, please tell me how children are supposed to see a dog walking down the street or behind a fence and know whether that dog is trained or untrained?

I'll agree about tight skin. It was mis-spoken/mis-typed on my part. Fighting dogs are bred to have loose skin. The rest of the breed attributes, I stand behind. The jaw is to be wide, with a large bite range. The head is to be without stop, the body muscular and nobby. When the Little Rascals were primetime fare, pit bulls were considered to be an excellent pet: loyal, steadfast, obedient and able to "protect their owners." Yippee! Now they are in urban areas and still doing the things they were bred to do: attack other animals & protect their owners. The difference is that we now have backyard breeders who are building these dogs for fighting, but then selling them to unknowledgable people who have no business caring for such an animal.

I would suggest that perhaps your training is lacking if you are so well learned and yet are unaware of these things.

And I would rather stand with my decades of experience dealing with dogs and other animals, that with the postings of somebody who IMO has little experience with dogs, and most of they have seems to come out of fear and loathing for the animal.

Again, you are confusing a dogs snarl, the curling back of the lip, exposure of the teeth below or next to the nose, with a dog's smile, in which the corners of the mouth are drawn up. Given what you have expressed so far, your fear and loathing of the animal, it is no wonder that you haven't seen a dog smile.

Again, large, wide mouths are generally shallow mouths. And in a dog that is supposed to bite and hang on, a shallow wide mouth doesn't allow for the kind of grip needed. But then again, you probably still buy the old fable that pits have "locking jaws" too:eyes:

And quite frankly, any child walking down the street should be trained to stay away from any dog, pit or otherwise. Cocker spaniels are the most bite prone dogs in this country, and they can hurt a child also. Unless the child knows the dog, or the situation is supervised by an adult, the child should know to stay away from a dog.

By the by, I stated in my earlier post that to approach a strange dog, squat down, and present your hand palm down, in order that the dog doesn't feel threatened by your size and an open hand. At least you're getting that right.

As far as the Little Rascals go, well the pit was viewed as the ideal family dog up until thirty years ago. It was viewed as being loyal, obidient, intelligent, and NON_AGGRESSIVE. Look at some of those old Little Rascals movies, and watch how they wool around with their dog. Pull the ears, pull the tail, that and much more they were able to do because the dog was raised properly. If you take any dog, pit or otherwise, and abuse it and train it to be violent, you're going to wind up with a killer, it doesn't matter if it is a pit or a poodle.

But then again, what do I know. I mean really now, I literally handled thousands and thousand of dogs, vicious and otherwise, in all sorts of scenarios and conditions. And gee, the only bite I recieved during all of that was from a dachsund. Yeah friend, I'm really unaware of a lot:eyes: Tell me, how many animal shelters have you worked in? How many vet offices? How many dogs have you handled? Do you even own a dog?

I'm a certified obedience trainer (I, II and III) and I have one dog for a life-long companion -- three others I'm currently fostering until they can find homes. The only dog that has ever bit me was a deaf Dalmatian.

You make a lot of assumptions for such an obviously intelligent person, eh?

From a statement that "dogs don't smile" and other such nonsense? You are not coming across as particularly knowledgable about this topic, and you are spreading some erroneous information. If you are indeed a trainer then I certainly hope for the sake of your clients that you don't pass this nonsense on to your charges.

So you are an Advanced Master Trainer? What school did you graduate from?

I said that showing your teeth to a dog is an act of agression. And, it is.

"Smiling (i.e. baring teeth) is viewed by dogs" And my reply to that is no, that isn't the case all the time. Dogs do "smile", they pull up the corners of their mouths in a smile much like a humans, and for much the same reason, they're happy. Snarling, which is what you're consfusing this with, is when the dog pulls up the lip underneath or to the side of their nose, thus baring their teeth. The best example of this in a human is the "Elvis sneer". And yes, if you did this to a strange dog, you could very well be in trouble. But if you smile in front of a strange dog, well I know that you wouldn't get the same reaction. If that was true, dogs would be attacking humans right and left, for we're a smiling species.

I'm sorry friend, but you have made some flat out wrong statements here. I would suggest that you go back and brush up on your canine communications.

Retrievers are bred to retrieve.

This breed is bred to kill.

With some training, it may be possible to train their instincts to go below the surface, but they are waiting there to come to the top and when they do so around people, people get mauled or killed.

Check out Nashville granny's story above

Please don't talk down to me as if I were a child, I do have some idea of what I'm talking about.

and these topics usually turn into flamefests. just saying...

They were originally bred to fight other animals. And as a matter of fact, any pit that was showing viciousness towards humans was indeed killed. And this informal culling resulted in a dog that was prized for being the ideal family pet up until thirty years ago. It was when the assholes decided to take this gentle dog and train it to be a killer that the real problems started. And this problem has been exacerbated by people like you who spread myths, rumors, half truths and other ignorance. I've seen this same sort of thing happen with other so-called "bad breeds" and every time the level of public ignorance simply astounds me.

By the by, did you realize that the dog most likely to bite a human is the cocker spaniel? Yet even though the dog is just slightly smaller than a pit, where are the cries to ban that breed? Lord knows though, I should shut up about that. I might start something going about vicious cockers and we'll see people calling to ban them here in a couple of years:eyes:

You want to see how vicious a pit really is? Pick up a pit puppy, and treat with with love and care and you'll have a friend for life. Pick up any other breed of dog and abuse it like these owners abuse pits to make them vicious, and you will have a killer dog on your hands, even if it is a killer poodle. It is all in the handling of the dog friend, not in the breed.

in their front yard. there is such a distance, if they are in one part of the yard, they could not make it to the door in time. we know the male pit is aggressive. it has attacked a male rotweiller. look for a way to get in thru the fence. wanted that dog. the owner has told me it doesnt like blacks. (what about mexicans, i have mexican blood and two boys and hubby has black blood, how good of smelling does the dog have?) and it doesnt like other dogs. k, we have one. what if boys have smell on them

this dog has been known to get out. the owner of rot said it would kill it if it saw it. a month ago held a ak47 over his fence as the pit owner was huntin for the dog

we have to look at their gate to see if open or shut when we go out to front yard

we have to keep our eye on that corner, when the boys are out there playing.

i ask you

how much empathy, must i have for this pit

because, this isnt a tough one for me. regardless of the pits right, the owners right to own a pit. i think my childrens right to not be mauled, or killed out weighs the pit and owner

just my thoughts on the matter

empathy or sympathy that is.

Matter-of-fact, I would contact the police all the time -- 4-5 times per day if necessary -- and ask them to come and make sure the agressive dog is secure.

We had an agressive dog in our neighborhood (a shepherd) and I didn't follow through. Now my oldest daughter has a huge scar on her neck. I now have an absolute no tolerance issue for neighbors who do not take the necessary steps to protect the rest of us from their agressive dogs.

a trust. he is fuckin dealing meth. i have documented and given to police. i have talked to sherriffs, police and the high ups. swat team was in my yard a couple years ago. yup. lol

your own neighborhood free from the danger of those dogs.

I hope for your sake nothing happens to anyone.

we do too

Don't make a damn bit of difference to me :shrug:

:evilgrin:

:evilgrin: squared

My daughter who lives in Tulsa was bitten on the hand by a Pit Bull. Messed her hand up pretty bad. Fortunately the owner ran to her defense and hit the dog over the head with a stick from the yard. Attack happened on her way to her car from her house.

i mean f*****. my brother walked out with his young daughter and one came up, squared off and brother with his fist hit him up on top of head. and went away. i am just not that good i dont hink. i dont like being mean. but thinkin, will just have to winkle nose and do it.

the worst having to see a child in such pain. the very f*in worst. shouldnt the owner have to now get rid of the dog, or was it the little girls fault she had the audacity to walk to her car

But I never left them alone with children. As much as I love pit bulls, I think a ban should be put on breeding them. I believe that has been done in England.

Let's ban the keeping of domestic pets.

Obviously, humans (in general) are either too dumb or too lazy to
a) care for their pets properly, and/or
b) learn about their behaviors and proper handling

I'm sick of these flame wars about bad dogs / murderous cats, ad nauseum. We go over the same territory over and over again.

The bottom line is that people don't adequately train, socialize or supervise the pets they have adopted. So let's ban the practice.

The animals will be better off in the long run.

Why don't we require every pet owner to take part in classes? If each municipality would require licenses, the classes could be part of the process. They could be taught by local animal control or through the SPCA.

Any animal which cannot pass certain standards of agression is put down.

how you can dismiss the pain and fear for this child. how you can put the ownership of the pain on this girl. i am sorry you are so tired of hearing about children mauled or killed, maybe you shouldnt come into these threads, so you are not put upon

Don't be putting words in my mouth.

Need I really say more?

The article also leaves out several facts pertaining to the status of the dogs (intact or spayed/neutered), what their socialization level was and why the people had them.

Naturally, the story is nothing but another fear-mongering attempt, which according to some responses here, is working.

Every time I try to bring up being educated about dogs and the importance of supervision of children in these threads, all I get in response is: pit bulls bad, must ban & destroy

to own a pit, but i have taken the time to educate myself with pitbulls. because someone else choses to own one of these across from me, i have done the research and learned and put in the time. nice of you to dismiss the fact that though i understand that it is not the pits fault it is aggressive, likely to attack a kid not an adult and once it grabs on is very stubborn and tough to get it to let go..........that it all has to do with the owner, and how my children react when/if a pit attacks. i have told my little ones. act like a tree. lets see how they do when the fangs go out. or are they suppose to drop and put arm around neck when it attacks as it mauls them?

yup

all us silly uninformed parents.

In a breaking stick, if you are concerned. Know how to use it as well.

Saw this on the news: the kids were fund raising (selling candy or whatever) and going door to door in the neighborhood. When they knocked on the door, the pits rushed them. Don't know if the dogs were outside, rushed through the screen door or what.

Pits were originally bred to kill/fight, yes (see my above post), but they also tend to attract a certain kind of owner (sometimes). I don't know why anyone would get a pit and not take precautions, and not learn how to handle and train them properly. Then again, I don't understand why anyone would buy a hand gun (which is only a potential lethal weapon) and not learn how to handle, and store, it properly.

And the kids came to the door to deliver candy they were selling. One dog got out and attacked kids, other 2 followed. Yard was unfenced. Owner was known to let dogs run loose in front yard, but no previous problems.

There was a bitch involved in both cases and like the SF case recently where the kid locked in with the dogs was killed - you have to wonder if the bitch was in heat.

Was wondering how they got out of the house, because it didn't sound to me like they were out in the yard when the kids got there.

Wouldn't surprise me if the bitch was in heat -- we had an incident next door where the owner himself got attacked -- but that was 100 percent his fault, IMO.

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What broad brushes, and what should we all know that some posters don't?
The Professor

ever try to educate a pro-choicer? This whole pit-bull argument is just as polarizing. You're either on one side or the other and there's no changing anyone's mind. It's funner to bang your head against a brick wall.

So, you're wrong. I'm just wondering which broad brush statements you see, and why those would be in error.

If you don't want to educate, fine. Just thought i'd ask. But please note that the first post by me in this thread was the one to you in which i asked the question. So, just which side do you think i'm on? The answer, friend, is neither.
The Professor

Pits have been banned for about 5 years now in The Netherlands, and I find it a huge relief. Attacks were regular here too until officials enforced the ban - no euthanasia, but mandatory sterilization, and muzzled and leashed in public.

The only owners I ever saw were young adults who dressed their dogs with spikes and leather to look even more intimidating to others, and this posturing didn't help create a public trust in the relationship and training of these dogs.

Since the ban dog attacks and deadly bites have gone way down.

In a crowded urban area like Holland, these, and other strong fighting breeds, are justifiably banned IMO.

DemEx

I think *ALL* pets should be sterilized.
That's right, I said ALL.
And breeders of any pet species should be inspected and licensed.

in my back yard, gardening. I heard a metallic rattle, looked up, and saw two LARGE male rottweilers running loose in the street by the front of my house. There is a 5' chain link fence all around the yard (I live on a corner), except for a gap at the driveway (tacky, yes, but I rent)which stopped them. I think they were headed directly toward me, and they looked like aggressive troublemakers. I was afraid they might find the gap in the fence, so I very quietly and slowly got up and scurried into the house, where I stayed for an hour, hoping they were gone. There's no way to shut the gap - the gate is gone.

Back when I still treated dogs, the only breed I was truly afraid of, due to multiple attempted attacks in the exam room, was the rottweiler. I never met one with an owner that was truly in control of the dog or appreciated just how dangerous they are.

never afraid of. He was very sweet, but despite going to puppy preschool he didn't always obey commands. Hopefully he will remain sweet as a full grown dog.

I went to a governmental webmaster's conference where this was a big dispute. The overall topic was dealing with public record: Should a city list all of its public records online?

The final consensus was that there are certain public records that could be placed online but should not (i.e., dog registries) because to do so would place those listed in the registry in an uncomfortable public position. (Hey, not my thoughts on the issue, just telling you what the consensus was at the conference.)

One woman from Missouri said her town's dog registry was the most asked about piece of public information in City Hall. They were not putting it online because they were afraid doing so would open up personal attacks against certain dog owners, leading to possible litigation against the city.

That might do the trick. Also, the dog and the owner's photograph should go on the site. We need to make it easy to identify just who's dog bit someone in a neighborhood.

People say "the dogs already have tags". I'm like ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Am I going to go up to a dog that just bit someone to try to find out who's resposible for putting it in a neighborhood it didn't belong in to begin with? If people think that that's adequate they shouldn't be surprised when someone like me puts a few bullets into the thing to get close enough to read the tag.

I should tell everyone who thinks of responding negatively to this: I am very unlikely to care what you have to say. I was attacked by three dangerous dogs in three separate incidents as a child, and the way a lot of people act about their dogs only furthers my perception that you people have a lacksidaisical sense of responsibility which put the dog in a residential area to begin with.

I agree with a registry, but it shouldn't be online.

I also think all dogs should be microchipped and that registered with the county/city as well.

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Any positive discussion got lost somewhere along the way.