Interview with mother of Tulsa 5 year old who was made to strip in school!

In case you have not heard the story, here it is; http://web.morons.org/article.jsp?sectionid=10&id=6599

Tonight, On "Head On with Bob Kincaid", Bob will be interviewing the mother of this unfortunate child.

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http://www.WhiteRoseSociety.org/Kincaid.html

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Please keep this kicked/recommend it. Thanks!

I read it here on DU last night, though I can't find the thread now.

If you can find a debunking, pass it on. I'll make sure Bob gets it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5284811

An official pronouncement from the school district is hardly fact in this case... What would you expect them to say?

You'll have to listen for the details, though!

IF this child had really been made to strip and sit in his underwear at school all day long (or even for a minute) that teacher and/or principal would be in jail. Also, teachers are mandated reporters of child abuse and neglect. Forcing a child to sit in his underwear IS DEFINITELY ABUSE. So IF this had really happened, the other teachers in the school (actually EVERY employee in the school) who saw this child in his underwear would be mandated to report this. If they did not report it, they would also be charged criminally. And yes, this most definitely would have been witnessed by other adults in the school. No way could the child have been hidden away so no one else saw him.

This story is a classic example of a mom who got mad and over-reacted. SHE is the one leaving out details. The school district would be in so much trouble legally if this had happened the way the mother reported it.

School districts always err on the side of caution in these cases. Teachers are presumed guilty until an investigation is completed. I have seen this happen many many times in the 26 years I have taught. I have seen teachers forced to resign who weren't guilty. In my state, an accusation against a teacher remains on file with the state for 10 years. Even if the teacher is exonerated, he/she has that accusation in their file FOR 10 YEARS. The state laws are so strict; no way can school districts cover up for employees.

Here is what happens when an abuse case is hotlined in a school - the state child protective workers IMMEDIATELY come to the school (and often bring cops along) and begin an investigation. They interview the child, the teacher, the principal, other teachers, the parent and (most importantly) the child's classmates who witnessed the abuse. Most often, the principal and/or school district administrators (in my district, our security officers would also be involved) interview all parties. By the time the child protective workers arrive, the teacher who has been accused is no longer 'on duty'. As soon as a credible abuse allegation is made, the teacher is removed from supervising children. This never happened in this case. That fact alone tells me this is a crock of shit. It is obvious that no hotline report was made. If there was ANY credibility to this mother's story, the teacher would have been hotlined. The mother herself could have made the report.

Please think about all these dirty details before jumping to the wrong conclusion.

It's on in about an hour.

I do know, however, that this IS in the legal system at present, as the family have retained counsel.

In fact, suing the school has become a fad.

I'm sure Bob will do a good job on cross examination.

Will there be a transcript posted?

I have trouble streaming radio shows on my computer.

Which you ought to at least be able to download and play if streaming isn't happening.

Try out the modem speed stream which ought to be easier for a challenged connection to keep up with. (But, yes, it is tinny sounding.)

There are several key differences in what the mom said and what the school said. So I guess the question is who is more likely to misrepresent the facts? In a school with 800 students, there are most likely 40 or 50 teachers. So there are potentially hundreds of witnesses at that school who saw the child that day. There are also 20 or so classmates (the average size of a kindergarten class) who were present when the teacher approached the kid about wearing a costume. And there are families of 800 kids who can recall if a note was sent home about not wearing costumes (the mother claimed there was no note). The mother also claimed other kids wore costumes; this would be easy to check as well. So the school has several means of verifying their version of events.

Then there is the mother. She admits being in bed on hospital bed rest but yet she got up and walked to school when her son told her what happened. She also said the school didn't call her. I wonder why she didn't call the school instead of getting out of bed and walking to the school. Maybe she has no phone? That would explain why the school didn't call her.

The mother also claimed the child walked around in his underwear all day and no one said anything. I will repeat what I have said all along - NO WAY this would have happened. IF the child was really walking around in underwear with an open crotch, as the mother claims, that constitutes sexual harassment. A school would never allow a child to walk around with anything exposed that shouldn't be exposed. That is just plain nuts.

There were a couple other things the mother said that concerned me. She said her son got sick because he sat outside ALL DAY in his drawers. I replayed that part to be sure I heard it correctly. First she said he waited for his ride outside after school and then she said he sat outside all day. Well unless the classroom is outside, he wasn't outside ALL DAY. Also, according to Catch22Dem, a DUer who lives in Tulsa, it was 80+ degrees that day. Not exactly the kind of weather a kid would catch a chill in. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The mom also more than once mentioned that her son was black. She talked about how hard it is to be a single black mother raising a son. Why that is relevant to this story is beyond me. Sounds like something a lawyer would say to gain sympathy for the mother and the child.

The best part of the mother's comments was when she said from now on, she would be paying more attention to her son's teachers. Good for her. Hopefully she will also be checking that backpack for those notes that tell her not to let him wear a costume to school.

Now as for what the teacher did - it was just plain stupid. She should have sent the child to the office to let the principal deal with the costume. She NEVER should have gone in that bathroom alone with that child (IF this is how it happened; the mother reported that. She also made a couple comments about a female teacher being in the restroom with her son. You can draw your own conclusions as to why she made a point of mentioning that.) The teacher should have been smart enough to have another adult present in that restroom as a witness. She also should have either called the mother or sent a note explaining that he had taken his costume off because the school had a policy of no costumes.

So yes, the teacher made several mistakes. But think about what we have NOT heard. The teacher has NOT been suspended. There has been no mention of a hotline report against the teacher. As I have repeatedly said in this discussion, it is illegal for any adult in that school who saw this kid in his underwear to not hotline it, especially if the crotch was open. So I don't believe the 'underwear' the child was wearing were really that revealing. I honestly believe they probably looked like jogging pants or at least one of those 40 or 50 teachers at that school would have reported it. And I believe what DUer karlrschneider said who saw the child on the news and reported there was nothing revealing or risque about the pants.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5284811#5290896

I agree totally with your assessment.

:hi:

I'm not ready to condemn the school just yet, though.

For the record, a statement by the child and his family likewise hardly counts as fact. What else might we expect them to say, if not a reaffirmation of their claim?

I don't know if I'll get to listen to Bob. We'll see how this develops in the coming days.

Thanks again for the link--I was going crazy trying to find it.

There are archives! :)

school districts do NOT defend us. They are far more likely to take the parent's side.

One example: About 15 years ago, I had a 4th grade girl in my class threw a book at another kid and she got suspended. Her mother called my principal's boss and said my class was 'out of control' and claimed her daughter was the only child in the class (of 25 kids) who was NOT on medication for ADHD. My principal's boss not only believed the parent but also gave my principal an official reprimand for putting so many ADHD kids together in one class.

I could write a book. Trust me, the school district isn't going to protect the teacher.

And I doubt Tulsa has some big-time union, either.

but the state and federal laws are so strict even a strong union can NOT prevent the district from suspending or firing a teacher for an allegation of abuse. It happens every day. One of my closest friends is sitting at home right now, while her lawyer and the district's attorneys negotiate a legal settlement because she was unjustly fired for an allegation that was proven incorrect. In other words, she did nothing wrong, lost her job and can't teach anymore. All it took was one angry parent.

here you go:

http://www.tulsateachers.org/

The district will protect the district. That may feel like it's not defending the teacher, but they certainly will NOT side the the parent if the parent is filing a lawsuit against it! They might as well hand over the checkbook as to do that.

On the other hand, it's true that if the teacher gets sued personally, the district will NOT provide defense for the teacher (that's why you have personal professional liability insurance). But in most cases, it's the district that gets sued.

What's likely to happen is the district will investigate whether the teacher followed state law, board policy or principal directive in the course of the incident (whatever it may be). Generally, if a policy is broken, the district will move further away from the teacher. To put it another way, if the teacher has gone out on a limb, the district will be there sawing it off.

It's much harder to divorce the district from a principal - they are often seen as acting agents, and the branch is harder to saw through.

It's all simple, cold, hard legal strategy. It sucks, but when you're faced with hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation costs, I'm not sure there's another alternative. I've not known very many altruistic litigants on either side.

But to prevent that lawsuit, the district will take the parent's side.

That is what I was trying to say.

And you are so right about sawing that log off. But the teacher doesn't have to be out on a limb for that to happen.

Long thermal underwear. Listen to the interview on the archives when it posts in three hours.

If the mother dressed the poor kind in long-johns on a day like that, she need to be investigated for child abuse.

Why would he be wearing long underwear AND the pants to his costume?

I think it may be possible that the kid wore the costume without Mom knowing it. Sounds like he may have dressed himself. That could explain the long underwear.

Mom said she was on hospital bed rest. Maybe she was asleep and the kid got himself ready for school.

:silly:

any sign I don't doubt the rest of the story.

http://www.tulsaschools.org/Schools/disney/

She'll be on right at the beginning of the show, if everything goes according to plan. I've gone over her version of events with her, and there certainly wasn't anything about sweat pants.

We shall see.

On edit: for clarity

He's the Senator that was on Meet The Press yesterday morning. He said he uses his medical skills as a physician to tell when someone is lying. He's trained!

Btw, Randi was just talking about him and his "powers" a few minutes ago. Funny stuff. Amazing what these Repunks can do.

Wait til you see one in the backroom of a gay leather bar!!!

made those statements about detecting liars. And I thought John Cornyn of Texas was nuts.

Unless the mother gives permission, the school district cannot discuss the case with any reporter. And in high profile cases like this, a school district often declines to discuss the details even with parental permission.

Now if I was a reporter, I would want to report ALL sides of a story, not just the angry parent's version of events.

I'm concerned with the well-being of the child. I most assuredly *am* biased in the child's favor.

That whole "if ye've done it unto the least of these ye've done it also unto me" thingy just has a nasty habit of crawling all over me.

In this era of absent parentage, I'm proud of a parent that has the gumption to *get* angry about her baby's present, as well as his future.

I've got a feeling that we'll hear more from this story.

But we need to hear the WHOLE story. Not interviewing the school to hear their version is not fair.

Parents can make some pretty wild claims. Sure it's great that they want to stand up for their kids, and they should. But they should also be honest. Misrepresenting the facts and then filing a lawsuit is not in the child's best interest. Think of what he learns from that.

I'm O-C-D about that stuff.

Never heard the lady contradict herself.

As noted, will offer the school board the same half-hour.

Fair is fair.

Oh she stuck to her story alright. Except for the part when she said he was outside all day. After she said he was outside after school waiting for his ride. So that is a minor contradiction.

I am sorry you don't see how UNFAIR this is. Parents can make wild accusations - and they do - anytime they want.

I have been in this education business a long time - maybe too long. I saw right through her story. I am sorry you aren't intuitive enough to see the holes. I am sorry you didn't ask her any probing questions.

I still want to know why no one hotlined the teacher. That is the most important missing detail.

she hotlined the teacher. If she says no, ask her why not.

I can give you the hotline number to give the mom. I'm sure it would be easy to google.

My school has no website. Does that mean you think we mistreat our kids?

:shrug:

Can't you see where that is a tad bit judgmental?

one being .. that you take a jest I made and are making judgments about it.

I read the Tulsa World daily, and watch the local news and I sure don't recall seeing this. but then I'm gettin older...I wouldn't think the local Sinclair channel or faux outlet could let this pass by...

or so I read in the debunking thread referenced above.

had the story originally. I made contact with the Mom through them.

Sadly they don't keep the text versions of news items more than a few days.

:shrug:

I doubt the story.

Looks like the school board fucked up big time.

As a mandated reporter, had I seen this 'abuse' I would already be in legal trouble for not reporting it. It has been a week. Waiting this long to report only makes it look like a report will help support the parent's lawsuit.

I was able to access the link and I am listening to something now but it isn't the interview. Is it not archived yet?

I have a Mac so it will be easy for me to listen through itunes.

:kick:

First article on the school district webpage:

http://www.tulsaschools.org/

The "underwear" he was forced to wear all day long was apparently...*gasp*...pants and a tee-shirt that went below his waist.

Two sides to every story.

Thermal underwear. With the crotch out in front. UNDERWEAR. Good thing the long t-shirt shirt covered it.

but I was impressed by Ms. Harris' earnestness and straightforward comments. Frankly, I was most impressed by the response of my lovely wife. Ms. Harris impressed Agnes, and that says about all there is to say on the issue. But that's Agnes and me. I realize that.

But here's what I'm going to do. I'll contact the school board and offer them the same half-hour I offered Ms. Harris. I'll even invite them to listen to the interview.

That would be fair, right?

but don't be surprised if they refuse to talk to you on or off the air. As I said before, they cannot talk to you about this kid without mom's permission. And it's a no brainer that a lawyer would advise her not to give that permission.

I also wish you would have asked her if she hotlined the teacher. An investigation by child protective services would determine if the school really made a mistake in this case. And since Mom is alleging sexual abuse, the police would also most likely be involved if a hotline report is filed.

The mother at no point alleged sexual abuse. She did say that if the child was to be disrobed as he was, it should have been done in the presence of at least one more adult. Can't fault her there.

I'm well aware of the hotline process. I've seen it used for good and ill, and as a club.

It seems to me that this lady didn't do that for laudable reasons. She just asked for answers and was stonewalled.

about the teacher being in the restroom alone with her kid.

And she doesn't have to say sexual abuse. My point is - if this really happened the way the mother claims, it IS sexual abuse. The teacher should have been hotlined and would maybe be sitting in jail today - IF what the mother is saying is true. A credible allegation is enough for a principal or a co-worker to be obliged under federal law to hotline a teacher or co-worker.

She claims the crotch on the undies was open! That alone is enough to warrant a hotline report. Yet, none so far has been made. I find that pretty telling. I am sure by this time the superintendent and top level administrators in the district and their attorneys have interviewed witnesses and made a determination about hotlining. It's been a week. The mother would know if anyone hotlined it. She would have been contacted. I can't imagine this mother leaving that little detail out of her story. So I believe we can assume it has not been hotlined. Hence, no sexual abuse. Hence, no open crotch.

I have no problem with the way the district handled the mother. I can find a jillion things wrong with what the teacher did but it doesn't sound like abuse to me. Stupidity, yes.

Perhaps you don't know what "open crotch" long underwear is? "Open fly" "Y-fly?"

You might want to re-listen. Not once did she suggest sexual abuse took place. She said the potential was there because of the manner in which the teacher handled it.

Had she "hotlined" this issue, I believe she would've been in the wrong. The child made no allegation to warrant it.

The Boared simply needs to take corrective action viz. its policies and procedures.

and something was exposed that shouldn't have been exposed, every kid in the class would have shrieked that information to the teacher. I have spent many years working with kids and trust me, no way would that open crotch have gone by without someone noticing. So I am positive a kid would have said something. If an adult had seen the open crotch, they would be mandated to report it. Yet, no one other than the mother has mentioned the open crotch.

Mom doesn't have to mention sexual abuse. IF this child really was exposed and forced to stay that way all day, that is sexual abuse. When little boys go to the restroom and show off their penises to each other, that is considered sexual abuse. Touching does not have to occur. A kid at my school was suspended for sexual abuse last year when he told a classmate "I want to fuck you". He never touched her. In today's sue happy society, schools don't play when it comes to sexual abuse. We have been told not to use endearing terms with kids, like honey and sweety because that can be considered sexual abuse.

And if this situation had played out the way the mom is claiming, and sexual abuse had happened, it should have been hotlined. The child does not have to make any more allegations. He has already alleged the teacher forced him to wear his underwear all day. That is enough to warrant a hotline report.

I agree the board needs to do something and I would imagine they probably will. Mandatory training for all employees regarding sexual abuse and forcing kids to change their clothes will surely be on the agenda at an upcoming staff meeting.

As the one's being potentially liable, they cannot say anything. The parent is not in danger of being sued, and can make any non-slanderous statement she wants.

So, no, it's not fair.

It pisses me off that we never hear the whole story. Only the angry parent's version of events.

And sadly, these sue happy parents have really changed the way we deal with kids. As a special ed teacher, my district makes me go to at least one legal training session every year. They actually tell us they want us to start thinking like lawyers!

It's really frustrating. We had one case with a truly whacko parent - the kind that can't come to school without marching directly to his kids' classroom and literally SCREAMING at the teacher in front of the whole class. We finally got a restraining order on him. We had others threaten teachers - called the police on them. Just recently we expelled a kid who threatened a teacher.

And then we had a parent who came to school one day to thank the five kids who beat up the kid who had beat up HER kid. Jeez.

I had committed the grievous error of taking a paper airplane from her child and throwing it in the trash. She came in my room after school and literally cornered me while she screamed in my face that I was a fucking bitch and I had better watch my back because she was going to kill me dead. Then she stormed out and hit another teacher's car as she pulled out of the parking lot. First and only time I have ever got a restraining order against anyone.

Funny thing - another parent was in the hall and overheard her screaming at me. She worked at the neighborhood video store and told us this woman had been arrested there a few days earlier for threatening to kill the clerk when she was charged a late fee. She said she had heard the grocery store had banned her also.

The sad thing is that most parents are wonderful and appreciative of what we do. But it's the loony ones we remember.

Too many parent complaints.

When I was in elementary school, it was almost mandatory that you wear a costume on Halloween!

All it takes anymore is ONE parent. School districts cave very easily.

At my school, we had a huge Halloween celebration for years. Parents would come up and decorate. One year they built this huge haunted house in the gym. It was really neat. Our kids would spend the evening at school being safely supervised instead of out in the neighborhood trick or treating. Then we were told by the school district we couldn't have Halloween parties anymore. So now our kids are out roaming the neighborhood on Halloween. (Except of course for the handful whose fundie parents complained and caused the district to ban Halloween.) Makes great sense, eh?

schools that have ever allowed dressing up for halloween

Parents complain to no end from both sides: "Halloween is a devil celebration", "Halloween is just a fun time for kids!" "I don't want my kid getting any candy", "My kid can afford a costume, you tryin' to single him out??"

And on and on and on . . .

There is no escaping it. Even when Halloween falls on a weekend, they want another the Friday before. And you have extra absences, and loss of ada (in CA, anyway) because of the parents who keep their kids at home to protest or to keep them from participating.

Of course my kids don't live in the middle of Jesusland.

We aim to please!

:toast:

Hello to Agnes! :hi:

Thanks, Eleny!


:yourock:

I will post a direct link to it when it is up!

http://server2.whiterosesociety.org/content/kincaid/KincaidShow-(7-11-2005).mp3

http://tinyurl.com/8q3w4 <--- Archive here.

Mom is just looking for a pay day.

screwed up, Ms. Harris may get it.

I got the sense, however, that she's just protecting her child. The conduct was certainly nothing we would've tolerated if done to our little ones.

read the notes your kids bring home so this would never happen to your kid.

And I agree, the mom will probably get some money out of this.