Why didn't Diebold steal yesterday's elections?

There's quite a few people who believe that Diebold has that power... Then what happened yesterday?

they are running scared.




one can hope!

it IS risky so the risk has to be worth it.

http://www.cafepress.com/scarebaby/936290

they perform their "magic" the more likely they are to screw up and out themselves. This needs to be used very selectively.

alter the count without much suspicion.

I think that is the key reason the repukes keep us all so incredible divided. so much easier to tinker with 48-52 numbers than 60-40's which I figure is closer to the numbers in the vote yesterday.

Beyond that, they are cutting into the profits of pollsters with deep pockets who make their LIVING out of divining the public mood. There would be a massive hue and cry, and investigations.

Cheating only works when the race is close. When there is a blowout, or even a reasonably decisive win, they just can't move the numbers in a way to be plausible/

candidate has 51% and the other way around. Voila.

Georgia had & has 100% electronic voting machines!

in yesterday's municipal election, my city (Duluth) used paper ballots.

they make theft possible with a keystroke. Elections officials have to do the stealing.

the stealing. Ohio STOLE - the polls showed 68% in Favor of Issue 2 and the results showed 60+% opposed.

I think in the GA 02 election. Any of these patches could have changed the programming of the vote counting procedure in the machine. One guy, Rob Behler has attested to his role in one or two of the patches.

The stealing could have been done in many different ways.

that counts the votes. In states like Georgia they have even been the ones to program the ballot styles (2002 for sure, 2004 don't know).

Why didn't they steal these elections? Maybe they wanted to make it look right for this one so they could more easily steal 2006. But more likely is that it's just too hard to program the code to steal state elections because of all the different races they'd have to program to steal.

However, sometimes when they have control of ballot programming and their hands on every part of the election process, like in Georgia in 2002, they can easily steal state races, like the governor and secretary of state, for instance.

My guess is they are set to steal 2006 and we can bank on it unless there is such a phenomenal difference in the votes between the two parties, and particularly in some states and not others, that they won't be able to do it without being obvious. Then again, how could we prove it without voter verified paper ballots and hand counts of those ballots on election night?

denied a ballot cuz the machine said he had already voted.

And there were those mismarked touch screen ballots in VA but people were alert to the fact that they had to pay attention and they made noise when they voted DEM and the machines registered the votes as for GOP...

Maybe because people are not trusting, paying attention, and screaming foul?

edited for typo

:hi: OR, they decided to let these local elections go and save the big guns for the important stuff...2006 and 2008?

The Aspens turned, and next thing you know, the media, Diebold, and everything else that was keeping the public in a state of suspended disbelief over Bush's insanity turned on him.

Where the media propped him up, now they attack him.

Where Diebold supported his candidates, now the elections seem to have at least gone the other way (whether or not they are legitimate, I still don't know).

Whoever runs the big show has penciled in a shift in the script, in my opinion.

"Whoever runs the big show has penciled in a shift in the script, in my opinion"

sounds possible.

The powers that be will preserve the impression of parity, but reserve the right to thumb the scale?

Everything else is window dressing...

but what did they win? Not much, mostly maintained the status quo. You don't risk getting caught stealing small potatoes when there are large potatoes to be had next year.

somebody should take a closer look at the Ohio results. It's hard to believe that they all failed!

We still face the same most basic problems about the integrity of the voting process.

There were 5 issues - Issue 1 was Gov. Taft's proposal, while the others were Democratic reforms. Issues 4 and 5 didn't have majority support; however, all the other issues had over 60% support at the end of October. So it's a little suspicious that all of the Democratic reforms were rejected, especially in a year that Democrats won overwhelemingly. Yet Gov. Taft, who has a 15% percent approval rating, gets his Issue 1 passed. But I guess you can never account for the difference lots of money & lots of commercials can make. Sometimes I think we deserve the government we get. How could people let themselves be fooled by a couple ads? Don't they wonder about who's RUNNING all these ads, and about their motivation?

Here's the poll: Ray C. Bliss Institute (pdf). 1076 Ohio Residents. MoE +/- 3% - Likely Voters.

State Issue One (Third Frontier)
Favor: 61.8%
Oppose: 38.2%

State Issue Two (Absentee Balloting)
Favor: 63.8%
Oppose: 36.2%

State Issue Three (Campaign Contributions)
Favor: 61.2%
Oppose: 38.8%

State Issue Four (Nonpartisan Redistricting)
Favor: 43.5%
Oppose: 56.5%

State Issue Five (Role of Secretary of State)
Favor: 42.5%
Oppose: 57.5%

http://www.swingstateproject.com/2005/10/new_reform_ohio.php

machines for voting, they do use them for tabulating. And who's the head tabulator? J. Kenneth Blackwell. Gee, I don't know what to think...

Those ads said could cost TAXPAYERS 90 million.

In the election reform proposals, 20%-30% poll vs. actual 3 day reversals - ALL in Blackwell's favor...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2233718&mesg_id=2235066

He was tinkering as california was eating all our brains.

Blew a ton of the credibility against Diebold chicanery with their...less than reasonable response to requests for corroboration, whatnots.

That's my theory. I didn't say that, I was not here. :hide:

Just kidding; couldn't resist.

Local and state Republicans are no longer faithful to the national party. Repubs are turning on Repubs. You have to all be "in it together" to be organized enough to fudge an election.

I'm sure irregularities will turn up, though.

yeah, dems won. yeah, some puke proposals got voted down. But, a LOT of bad shit happened, especially in ohio and texas. I mean, whoopdedoo, liberals won in california! That's not a surprise. What's going to have long-term effects are the voting down of issues 2,3,4, and 5 in ohio, that keep it easy to steal elections, or the texas ban on gay marriage. We CANNOT let our guards down at ALL

California won because Republicans were crossing over like crazy,they HATE Arnold more than they could have imagined.

The machines should still be an issue.

The polling place locations are still a big issue.

Senior voter's are still a big issue.

So much more.


You must be savvy enough to realize that your polling place changed and have enough gas to find out that it is 5 blocks away on a street with no parking.

Your walker must be able to take you 5 blocks to the new location.

God that's insidious. What am I saying, it's all insidious. But still.

They let the Dems win the small elections this time to avoid suspicion, and make it look like their machines aren't rigged. That and the fact that many existing voting machine haven't been replaced with Diebold machines yet. Here in NJ, where I've been voting on those old 1950's era lever machines for years, they're supposedly getting touch screens next year. Just in time for the '06 elections.

I have two choices today...either believe that 75% of my fellow Texans are bigots. Or believe that they Diebolded an election they were probably gonna win anyway just to see if they could jack the numbers up to 75% without rousing the suspicions of the populace.

Hey don't feel bad, ours passed by that margin in here in MO a year ago also. Missouri isn't solid red either yet we were at 75% hell it might have been 80% on our Gay marriage ban.

In order to keep the fraud under the radar, it can't be too extreme. So, if the voters are coming out HUGELY against your issues you're screwed. Either their votes will surmont your rigging, or you'll have to turn up your rigging to the point that you hand becomes obvious.

I'm guessing in major elections the limit is around 5%. The limit would be higher in smaller issues, as fewer people pay attention there, or care if there are large swings. See the above posts on the Ohio ballot issues in posts above for an example of the latter.

then ask you to prove that they hid evidence. The answer is pitchforks and torches.

believable margin. If enough folks are becoming clear in their opposition to Republican policy, it becomes far too blatant to "adjust" results. Just one possibility.

Olaf

and he's no longer in control.

but this one I will.

For all of you who don't seem to get it, I think what the OP was staying is that instead of over blowing conspiracy theories if we get off our asses, contest elections, and run quality campaigns, we won't have to worry about whatever level of voter fraud actually does exist.
Stop making excuses for inaction and fight the fight!!!!!

How is that?

"Why wasn't the VA election rigged" poll thread I started responding there, it will be a little easier then posting on two threads essentially about the same thing....

for the sake of civility, I will just agree to disagree.

What are you doing in this thread? :)

Like reading some of the reports and testimony listed as resources here:

http://www.gaforverifiedvoting.org/resources.htm

Or take a look at Verified Voting's resolution and the names and credentials for those who signed it: http://www.verifiedvotingfoundation.org/article.php?id=5028

As long as they know we are watching, they are less likely to pull a stunt like Ohio 2004.

to 'win' by. The coordination means agreements with officials to allow 'little corrections', etc.

Don't forget, it's not just Diebold - it's all the Republican companies (including Chuck Hagel's) who have succeeded in getting us to vote on Repbulican hardware and software with Republican techinicians thrown in. Diebold should be used as a catch word for ALL the Republican machines - whose hardware and software HAVE NEVER BEEN VETTED and SEALED by any government or congressional committee and whose technicians the election officials didn't even know or vet.

We have allowed ourselves to be stolen from - we are suckers.

We should really stop referring to them as Diebold machines and start referring to them as Republican machines, Republican software, Republican technicians.

i cant find anything on it. i want to know. did this dem win by a lot more? is it just close races a repug can steal? did dem votes go to repug?

i dont know that they didnt turmad. lets find out.

They laid off to quell suspicion.

How do you plug something in wrong???

What I do believe is that Diebold has built in algorithms that can be triggered, given the proper opportunity.

1) The whole election vote stealing is all in our minds. I think its very likely stealing does occur but maybe we are all crazy.

2) The real big money powers behind the country decided a change is needed(hey the market has been stagnate for 5 years) and have started a shift back left for whatever reason. Perhaps they want democrats in power to be blamed when the housing bubble and other economic issues come to a head to further damage them.

3) The margin that can be stolen/manipulated could not overcome the leads by Democratic candidates. I think the amount can't be more then 3-5% of votes that can be effected without alarms going off.

and i see no damn reason to change that..but they will be changed because of hava...

thats why rush holt has fought to get paper ballots with any new machines...i.e. diebold


yes nj has the tried and true lever machines..so we still have good elections and the retugs could not steal nj!!

fly

this was from early yesterday!!
http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=4089899&ClientType=Printable


November 8, 2005
Voters report problems with voting machines in Roanoke Co.

Election day voting is going on across the Old Dominion, but everything has not gone smoothly in Roanoke County.

News 7 has received calls from several voters in at least four different precincts who say their votes for Tim Kaine were not recorded or took several attempts to go through.

They contend the electronic touch screens repeatedly indicated they were voting for Republican candidate Jerry Kilgore instead of registering their intended vote for his Democratic opponent Tim Kaine.

Roanoke Co. Registrar Judy Stokes says she doesn't want to say the problem is operator error on the part of the voters, but she points out the touch screens are sensitive. She says anyone who is having difficulty voting should ask one of the poll workers for assistance.

State election officials have been told of the problem. They believe if there is a problem, it could have been caused by the way the machines were stored.

The Kaine compaign is reportedly watching the situation in Roanoke County.

Otherwise, people notice.

the statement by the Diebold executive was intended to breed apathy?
I sure hear a lot of people who sound hopeless here.

I guess it was different in SoCal.

Just like my backyard whiffle ball game when I was a kid. If my team lost, of course it was because the other team cheated. If my team won, everything was on the up-and-up.

this was from early yesterday!!
http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=4089899&ClientT...


November 8, 2005
Voters report problems with voting machines in Roanoke Co.

Election day voting is going on across the Old Dominion, but everything has not gone smoothly in Roanoke County.

News 7 has received calls from several voters in at least four different precincts who say their votes for Tim Kaine were not recorded or took several attempts to go through.

They contend the electronic touch screens repeatedly indicated they were voting for Republican candidate Jerry Kilgore instead of registering their intended vote for his Democratic opponent Tim Kaine.

Roanoke Co. Registrar Judy Stokes says she doesn't want to say the problem is operator error on the part of the voters, but she points out the touch screens are sensitive. She says anyone who is having difficulty voting should ask one of the poll workers for assistance.

State election officials have been told of the problem. They believe if there is a problem, it could have been caused by the way the machines were stored.

The Kaine compaign is reportedly watching the situation in Roanoke County.

the onus of proof would be upon the person claiming malfeasance. That article doesn't prove fraud by any stretch of the imagination. If there was election fraud, you'd see indictments and convictions. Such as this case in point:

http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/12015710.htm

Do you think that people would spend vast amounts of money for over 2 years trying to track down who leaked a name of a CIA operative but would let possible election fraud on a national level go uninvestigated without any kind of substantial evidence? I didn't think so. If there's fraud - there will be indictments. No fraud - no indictments. It's as simple as that.

dont find fraud, you get no indictments. and you dont fix the problem. but can we START with looking at it?

The evidence is so vast and overwhelming, and it has now been confirmed by the GAO report (at least, the subset of problems they examined proved to be real). The GAO didn't really look beyond machine fraud to problems such as voter intimidation, misdirection, intentional machine shortages in Dem precincts, and fraudulent cancellation of registrations.

But yes, fraud by various means clearly swung the election in Ohio and apparently elsewhere as well. And yes, the beneficiary of that fraud still runs the apparatus which would normally be in charge of investigating it. He has been able to ignore cries of foul because his media poodles have mostly ignored the topic. For example, they completely refused to report on the landmark GAO report, which may explain why you apparently haven't seen it.

As I've already proven in the above link, if there's evidence of fraud there will be indictments and convictions. So if this GAO report is so overwhelmingly conclusive, then when do the arrests begin?

Which we will have to do by a wide enough margin to overcome the fraud. You'd better get a good lawyer by then, if you are currently in office. Otherwise, you might want to let your friends in office know that this will be looked into, and losing the next election will be the least of their worries.

How can you say that the Virginia race wasn't as stolen as much the Presidential election. If these machines can be used so easily to steal elections with the right people working int he polls, why wouldn't the Dems take advantage. If knowing the right people caN give either side power, why not keep the status quo and rely on your connections? Illegitimate power IMHO, isn't limited to the Republicans. If the Dems can get it just as easily, why wouldn't they try?

We've got so many statelegislatures and state executive offices we can throw out all these machines if that's what the Dems wanted. But they are so vulnerable, what makes anybody think that they wouldn't take at vantage of that fact either? Powe4r is corruptable with anybody who has it...

that is a clue in to me. i want to know why when pushing for a dem, repug kept popping up. and htis has consistantly happened with machines. hit dem, and repug come up. now if we equally had it where push repug and dem come up, then that would clu me in the machines are just fucked up. but it isnt happening to repugs. it is happening to democrats.

you explain to me

and why would i blame dems for throwing their vote to repug

on edit: i dont care if it is repug or dem stealing. i, an american, want all our votes to count. find a dem stealing throw his ass in jail. but dammit find a repug stealing throw his ass in jail too. and all the repugs, they should be on my side, as i am on their side

i dont care if it is repug or dem stealing. i, an american, want all our votes to count. find a dem stealing throw his ass in jail. but dammit find a repug stealing throw his ass in jail too. and all the repugs, they should be on my side, as i am on their side

Exactly. The fact that ANYbody can steal an election is a good reason for the machines to go. No exceptions. There's still no adequate paper trail in these machines and there have still been too many mechanical errors and such to really refelect the votes that were cast accurately. It is said that in any election, 3% of the electorate isn't counted anyways due to all the errors we had in 2000, technicalities in ballot eceptance, etc...

This is computer software here that any joe shmoe working in a voting booth can tamper with. We shouldn't feel secure about our electorate being counted accurately until they're gone.

I'm not sure I understand why you make that assumption.

1. depending on where the vote is being held (all voting is "local" and not every place has allowed the same level of repuke corruption), they can only affect a vote nominally. Only if the unaltered vote is within a margin of say 20 to 30%, can they change the outcome. Who's to say that the yesterday's results are legitimate? Uncorrupted, they may well have been even more against the Repukes.

2. Scrutiny is high on vote fraud. Off-year, "minor" elections are the time to lay low.

3. The ruling oligarchy works in mysterious ways. Even they must realize that people are becoming more and more dissatisfied (and therefore potentially less productive).

I mean, the vote count might STILL be rigged. Instead of 52-47 (or whatever the counts were), the reality may very well have been 65-34....

I'm not saying that was necessarily the case but I'm not saying it's not either.

Vote Quimby!
URGENT! Timing is critical to save earthquake victims before winter!

Depsite your unsupported speculation, there is absolutely no way that the recorded vote in Virginia and New Jersey reflected some dramatic understatement of the actual number of votes cast for the Democratic candidate and/or a dramatic overstatement of the votes cast for the repub. The result in Virginia was consistent with polls taken late in the campaign that showed Kaine with 50, Kilgore 45, Potts 3. The actual result was 51+ for Kaine, 46 for Kilgore and only 2 for Potts.

Similarly, Survey USA had Corzine with 50, Forrester with 44, and "other" with 5. Final results: Corzine with 52+, Forrester with a shade under 44, and other with a bit above 4 percent.

Even the polls for the California props weren't far off in most cases; where they were, the recorded votes were higher for the anti-Arnold position than the pre-election polls suggested, further evidence that there wasn't any widespread fraud.

onenote

Yesterday's elections had very little to do with driving the Rethug/Neocon/Religious Extremist Agenda
so it wasn't necessary to do much altering
Even the Calif Initiatives could be considered somewhat expendable
It is much more important to install in office Extremists who
could then propel their agenda by controlling legislation-that is the key
and eliminating checks and balances and controlling the Secretary of State positions in each state

They make it possible for corrupt state elections officials to steal them. If you don't have corrupt Republican secretaries of state and elections commissioners in place who are willing to take the risk of getting caught, you won't see massive, orchestrated election fraud. That's my theory, anyway.

The areas in green are "electronic." If one places these machines in strategic locations like large cities in Ohio ???

:shrug: I know that the central tabulators are said to be an issue, but with a paper trail the fudging of numbers is far less likely. And, with a national 2% audit as some like Kerry are pursuing problems should be detected.

Democrats should use this "unimportant" election to do some audits of scanned elections. Go in count every paper ballot compare to machine, period. That is what the paper is for. I believe there may be skimming even when we win. I for one just want to know our votes are counted as intended. Human eyes with witnesses counting our marks is still perceived as the height of integrity. WHY do we settle for less? I would rather have a little cheating or mistakes on a small scale, as opposed to private software and faith-based elections. Even winning doesn't feel as good as it should because we just can not know for sure that the count is accurate.


http://NoBullshiRt.com

they did steal our votes for Issues 2, 3, 4, and 5, Reform Ohio. I haven't heard a word from reform Ohio.

Reform Ohio Now poll two days before the election showed 68% in FAVOR of issue 2 -- and the 'votes' showed 60+% opposed.

:nuke:

and should mean an audit immediately, automatically and the result held void until the audit is completed.

That result sounds like a software glitch that simply switched yes and no votes around. Or really conspicuous tampering.

Save it for the big office and the house and senate or to get rid of "bad democrats" that are the big threats.

Also could be so people like you can say : "oh look it's all good, we finally won some races so this electronic voting stuff must be all tin-foil hat"

The tin-foilers on the GAO disagree, I might add.

:D

:loveya:

Leave those poor schmucks alone. They have enough trouble as it is.

various citizens' groups, so I don't think there was a chance this time. Also, I think a law was passed removing the touchscreens that don't have a paper ballot source to verify contested elections.

I wouldn't put it past them. Those leaks were in 2003, plenty of time to re-oil in time for November 2004. Now, of course, they've got to lay low, hang out in the typewriter barn until this blows over. That explains yesterday.

Our county does not use Diebold and went very strongly for Kaine.

edited to add how strongly: 3/5 of the votes, 60% went for Kaine.

that their best bet is to confine their fraud to minimising their losses in Congress, the Senate, governorships, whatever, rather than the outrageous going for broke that's slowly been catching up with them. (Please note the apostrophes around "realistic").

In the land of the blind... But he's still a king who's shortly going to be deposed, and in the meantime, is not going to get away with much at all on the electoral fraud front, from now on, I think. Let's at least hope they have that much sense.

the politics of grand deception and convenient distraction -- what would KKKarl Rove do?

ex., to quell election fraud discussion ... to help take the wind out of the sails ... so, that someone today would point at yesterday, and go ... see ... "Then what happened yesterday."


wonder if there would have been much uproar and attention today against the GOP, say, for example, if the Gropinator had pulled off 'a miracle'? would the GOP need that kind of heat today?

With Scooter, Frist, Delay, etc. going on ... not the best environment to raise the spectre of fraud again

gotta play your cards right to win ...

perhaps this fish wasn't big enough (risk factor)

perhaps the margins were too wide

the recent release of the GAO report may have been a deterrent


the big one to steal is the White House ... with the Senate ... that's where the big money and power is ... for them, the SCOTUS is worth stealing just the right political offices



I'm sure we'll be seeing this election cited to counter future fraud threads.

they can't score the big ones.

Actually I heard a republican soundbite this morning on AAR news who telegraphed the reason: just wait until 2006 when you see our remarkable comeback (paraphrasing).
I am sure they are preparing the required backstory now.

But, that's just silly me's opinion.

When, and I say when, not if, but WHEN they get caught, it will be for something major like senate seats or the presidency, AGAIN.

election without making it too obvious.

Do you think that they'd want to risk getting caught just to get a Republican Governor for Virginia?

Still, I wouldn't discount your skepticism. The American people may have just ben "complacent as usual" on 02 November 2004.

in California, Ahhnold didn't want to be seen with the President. No stolen election for you.

And so do the election officials they train and anyone else with sufficient access to their systems.

The same is true of EVERY electronic voting system that doesn't require a TRULY RANDOM partial, physical, manual audit and allow for a complete physical, manual audit.

Anybody who doesn't understand this is simply ignorant about computer systems.

However, one's having the POWER to cheat doesn't necessarily mean that one will always in fact cheat.

If anyone here is still somehow unclear on these simple and indisputable concepts, I'll happily explain further. For the moment, please consider just how ridiculous this line of argument is considering that BOTH sides DEFINITELY enjoy the THEORETICAL ability to steal entire elections with a few simple clicks of a mouse. Arguing that a fair election here or there somehow mitigates this very REAL threat is like arguing that "the United States doesn't need rules against torture because we never practice torture."