So, If We Lose, Diebold Stole It, But If We Win, Diebold Tried But Failed?

Do I have that right?

;)

Its tentacles do not have uniform reach.

death to dieBold!

and as always, all the glitches of which I've heard so far favored the Repukes. Isn't that odd?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

My theory is that they can't manipulate over a certain threshold.....but then I look at Ohio results...again.

I guess the point is, can anyone Republican or Democrat have confidence in a system that cannot be verified? And, if we don't have confidence, can we beieve we have a democracy?

elections, but it wouldn't win landslides.

Plus, machines were only used in certain places.

Balky electronic machines with proprietary software, no paper trail (never mind no paper ballot, voter verified or otherwise) is a clear invitation for shenanigans and attempted shenanigans for decades to come.

Trying to trivialize the issue with this kind of silly sophistry does no one any favors.

on edit: sorry to sound so grumpy, but it really is a serious issue

No auditing, hackable, should be banned reegardless of whether it's owned by a Republican or a Democrat

Ya know the old saying: Don't steal anything small.

There were several serious problems yesterday. There were also alert and savvy voters who didn't put up with those problems. That would not have been the case had people not been beating the subject for several years now. Educating voters about issues pays off, and vote fraud is an issue where a few patriotic people have worked very hard at getting solid info out to the voters.

And Andy's spirit was watching... Miss ya big guy, but feel you are with us still.

To Andy and all the patriots who work to ensure integrity in our balloting procedures :toast:

Governator First Instructed to Use a Provisional Ballot, Given Normal Ballot Anyway!
LA County Registrar, Diebold Supporter Admits 'Protocol Breached in Advance of Election'

Due to a problem with Electronic Voting Machines in Los Angeles County, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger was told he had already voted when he showed up at the polls today to...

Due to a problem with Electronic Voting Machines in Los Angeles County, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger was told he had already voted when he showed up at the polls today to cast his ballot in the Special Election that he himself declared for California today!

He was told he'd have to use a provisional ballot, but unlike most American voters, he was eventually allowed to use a regular ballot anyway.

Los Angeles County Registrar, Conny McCormack (a huge fan of Diebold machines, and a very good friend of their sales rep here in Southern California) is trying to mitigate the damage...big time...Though she admits that someone "breached protocol in advance of the election"

It should be further noted, that the Governator was attempting to vote in Brentwood (in Los Angeles County), but the "breach" -- which would have kept a normal non-Gubernatorial citizen from voting on anything but a provisional ballot -- occurred in Pasadena, about a 30 to 45 minute drive from Brentwood. Early voting, on paperless Diebold Touch-Screen Voting Machines, has been occurring in Los Angles County for the last several weeks.http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001990.htm

as for GOP? That's another one. Many voters alerted poll judges to the fact that the machines were fucking up. Good on 'em.

Why would they risk stealing small elections? If they got caught stealing these small elections then all eyes would be on them during the 2006 election. We all know the 2006 election is very important.

I have no idea if there was any, but my theory was that they would try to make the gap between the parties smaller than in the last election in order to claim that NJ is "trending" to the right, which might allow them to steal it the next time.

I still don't understand how Bush did better here in 2004 than in 2000.

they wouldn't let one go by now to make it look as if their system is working after all, and everything is fine for keeping Diebold in '06 & '08, with much higher stakes.:tinfoilhat: Arnie's Folly, f'rinstance, cost US $50 million, let alone the mega bucks spent on hype - it's big numbers to us, but all small potatoes to those who want to 'win' . And these will all be back to haunt us in future elections. This one was a throw-away.

Nah, Diebold isn't rigged, not any more than wrestling.

(and they don't), BBV isn't going to expose itself to scrutiny on anything other than a national general election. In 2006 they'll meddle in some important senate elections but it won't be nationwide and won't be as blatant as Ohio 2004. They do not want to jeopardize their prospective influence on National elections by triggering investigations of less important elections.

Gyre

we still have most of the old machines used in most counties in nj!!

the toggle machines..( sorry don't know what you call them...

but mid to south nj no diebold or es&s!!

fly

Somerset county.

night it would have been the fault of the voters.

"You're either with us or against us".

Simplistic observations like yours never describe complex situations. Diebold can only steal it at the margins and if they have a dominant presence. If a race isn't close, they can't steal it for the Repugs. If they don't have a majority of the voting machines, they can't steal it for the Repugs. And there were voting problems in Virginia. Kilgore just didn't have enough support for them to steal it.

:eyes:

Sides I bet they thought they had virginia in the bag and didn't fully commit the time and resources in just two states.

Up until now, it's been primarily Dems that have ben screaming about the voting machines. Pubs haven't said much, if anything at all, because they really believe their guys won ligitimately and we're just crying because we lost.

The win in VA just might cause the Pubs to start pushing for verified voting too. They now have a reason to question the validity of THEIR VOTE.

the Rethugs are still in control overall. Dems don't have the means, methods or connections to rig the vote. Further they would be fools to even try. The Rethugs know where the backdoors are in the systems and would out the Dems so fast if they ever tried.

one, started hyping how easy the data can be manipulated, and "Maybe we ALL should question the outcome of every surprise election", the avg. Pub voter just might buy it!

The more mainstream attention that is brought to the issue, the less likely anyone is to try to abuse the system. More people were more informed about Diebold machines during this election than ever before, and given the indictments and blatant criminality of the republicans, more people were willing to believe they are capable of it.

to protect our votes here with earlier legislation to keep them from taking over. If we had someone like Blackwell in charge here, we'd be screwed now with this special election. It was just too big a barrier for the fundies and wingnuts to overcome here in California.

How do you know? Isn't that the problem? Just because the democrats swept two governors races and beat back Arnold's state government changes, does not dispel concerns regarding electronic voting.

My problem is that with the computerized voting - hacking is a very real possibility and therefore a very real concern. Evidence of stark disparities between polling and voting, as has been pointed out in the Ohio vote sets off alarms in my head. It should cause everyone's bullshit bells to ringing.

Many, many problems were found in the 2004 election with electronic voting. For example there seemed to be over votes in quite a few polling places. I was a judge in a small precinct in Maryland where there were 12 over votes compared to the manual voter rolls. How many precincts? How many over votes? Bush did not carry Maryland he just seemed to get more support in this Blue state then expected.
W
hat caused these? Bugs in the software - maybe, Computer hardware glitches - maybe, Programmers having a little fun - maybe. Hacking - maybe. This maybe and that maybe add up to lost votes. Enough maybes and lost votes become the deciding factor.

If someone is hacking the vote I would give them enough credit to think they will not be so greedy as to get caught and they will pick their battles with care.

would be more wary of.

and sophmoric.

wonder why? AH, let 'em play. We can manage to get real agruements to refute the silly 'how come Diebold didn't steal this one' questions. And that helps educate even MORE voters. ;)

this was meant to provoke discussion, not flames. This was the actual excuse I heard from an earlier thread: that Diebold *tried* to screw up this election and failed.

I'm in favor of mandating election paper receipts. I'm in favor of public run elections without using privately made voting machines.

I'm not in favor of throwing our hands up in the air and being defeatist about beating Republicans because "it's all fixed." I just don't believe that it is. I've never seen convincing evidence.

lines where have to wait all day, in Ohio they moved the sites just before the election.. put some in neighborhoods NO one would go to, the sites weren't marked.

besides the other problems with Diebold like systems, the law states the vote must be able to be recounted.

if there is a chance JUST ONE vote can be lost it needs to be fixed Immediately.. and that is NOT being done. So those in charge are suspect....PERIOD

are.

Private companies that would have had a LOT of unecessary scrutiny and publicity today if things had come out questionably. I still believe until we get rid of all the machines that violate the legally necessary transparency of an election, we have no legitimate elections.

I believe they were very cogniscent of that fact and as such played things less obviously last night. I would imagine the last thing private voting companies like Diebold and ES&S want to invite anymore unecessary scrutiny when they are still trying to place these machines in every county of every city and state. Right now is not the time to call attention to themselves.

IMO, I have no idea, however, I don't believe the results were probably accurate. How can we? I would imagine we were played again. Why would we think otherwise?

The fact the results came out in our favor is essentially irrelevant.

The reality is they are still controlling the outcome of the elections by owning ALL VOTING DATA and counting the votes themselves. In other words, we continue to be beholden to the "results" of these private companies.

In California, I would tend to believe all those proposals went down in FLAMES, I don't know of any Republicans nor have I seen one sign out in favor of any of those proposals. However, we still got the did the neck and neck 'dog and pony' show perhaps to make it look more legitimate.

Of course I have no proof of that. It's just instinct. But it's been done before.

If we lose, Diebold (or whomever) stole it.

If we win, Diebold (or whomever) wanted us to win it for their own diabolical reasons (probably having to do with PNAC, the "Bush cabal" or the "BFEE").

:eyes:

;)

Nice try though.

stolen, and there's no reason why Diebold wouldn't or couldn't sell an election to a democratic candidate either.

Secret vote counting done on trade secret software allows all of this, but it doesn't HAVE to happen. And it better not happen (from the standpoint of a "seller" of elections) in a totally nonbeleivable way.

Now maybe republicans will see the need for transparency.

It's gotten so bad that at least one DUer DIDN'T VOTE (!!!) because she saw a touchscreen machine. This is what passes as "voter advocacy" these days - convincing people that they shouldn't vote (because, y'know, it's all fixed anyway)! It's a deranged, loser argument, and it's getting more and more dangerous.