Americans accused of brutal 'punishment' tactics against villagers

Americans accused of brutal 'punishment' tactics against villagers, while British are condemned as too soft
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=452375
By Patrick Cockburn in Dhuluaya
12 October 2003

US soldiers driving bulldozers, with jazz blaring from loudspeakers, have uprooted ancient groves of date palms as well as orange and lemon trees in central Iraq as part of a new policy of collective punishment of farmers who do not give information about guerrillas attacking US troops. ....

Nusayef Jassim, one of 32 farmers who saw their fruit trees destroyed, said: "They told us that the resistance fighters hide in our farms, but this is not true. They didn't capture anything. They didn't find any weapons."

Other farmers said that US troops had told them, over a loudspeaker in Arabic, that the fruit groves were being bulldozed to punish the farmers for not informing on the resistance which is very active in this Sunni Muslim district.

"They made a sort of joke against us by playing jazz music while they were cutting down the trees," said one man. Ambushes of US troops have taken place around Dhuluaya. But Sheikh Hussein Ali Saleh al-Jabouri, a member of a delegation that went to the nearby US base to ask for compensation for the loss of the fruit trees, said American officers described what had happened as "a punishment of local people because 'you know who is in the resistance and do not tell us'." What the Israelis had done by way of collective punishment of Palestinians was now happening in Iraq, Sheikh Hussein added. ....

Asked how much his lost orchard was worth, Nusayef Jassim said in a distraught voice: "It is as if someone cut off my hands and you asked me how much my hands were worth."

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One more reason why we MUST bring U.S. troops home!

This is tragic, sad, and telling. Humanity is just not a concern when fear of attack dominates an army with weapons in charge of a poor population.
In this war, however, there are so many arms that the population may have access to that actions like this might lead to more attacks on the US troops rather than fewer attacks.

We need to either all get behind Dennis, or everyone get their fave candidate to support turn-over-and-pull-out NOW.

As long as candidates who claim we've to 'stay the course' continue to be supported, the war crimes and killings will continue.

'Those who can protest but do not are accomplices in the act'

I will not support any candidate that spews the "we must stay the course" garbage. We have to get out NOW! The way we get out of Iraq is to start this morning loading C-130's and continue until everyone is out. Period. Everyone knows how this is going to end, just look at Afganistan. Some day, after enough Americans and Iraqis have been killed and enough of Iraq's natural resources have been plundered, and enough of our money has been thrown away, we will "declare" victory and leave. All the money and lives will have been wasted and we will have nothing to show for it but hatred and defeat. Let's cut to the end game and just declare victory now and leave!

Of course, I'm speaking academically. This regime has no respect for any law but their own. Still, those responsible could be indicted by the court at the Hague, even if (for now) it only has symbolic value. It's nice to think of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, et al in the same company as Henry Kissinger, international criminals unable to go many places in the world for fear of extradition and trial

Just like most Right-Wing Chickenhawks, they will use to to yammer about what others are doing to our boys (victimns, like the rest of us, of Bushevik Arrogance, Greed, and Hypocrisy) while we are committing different violations of the same Geneva Convention.

Of course, none of that even can penetrated the programmed rationale of either the Brownshirts or their Masters, the Busheviks.

http://WWW.markarkleiman.com/archives/001005.html

American politicians in rejecting American involvement in the International Criminal Court argued that the United States was ready and willing to police itself. Well, here's their chance to prove it. Here is what the Americans must do (but won't):

1. Apologize.
2. Obtain new trees and have the
American troops plant them in the
places where they were removed.
3. Calculate the loss of income to these
farmers until the new trees mature and
pay the farmers at least that amount.
4. Arrest the officers who ordered the collective
punishment, and the soldiers who followed
illegal orders, and try them for breach of the Geneva Conventions. If they are found guilty, punish
them in accordance with American law.
5. Make an official announcement that
collective punishment is not the policy of
the United States or its military, and any
further examples of it will be punished to
the full extent of the law.
http://xymphora.blogspot.com/

If it is true, #1, #3, & #5 would be in order. But if your goal is to demoralize our troops, and then basically turn our fighting men & women into a bunch of puss'es, by all means do #2 & #4.

In Tolkien, Orcs were disfigured Elves
Bred to Evil. Is Puss the only alt?

Fighting men and women had better be fighting
for something enlightening, beneficial
I don't call collective punishment and
permanent destruction of livelihood
beneficial.
What makes warriors strong is
readiness to fight to the death.What
makes people ready to fight to the death
is justice. What makes justice possible
to carry out is its awesome dignity.

Tolkien's world is a fantasy world. Wake up stop applying what you read in a "make-believe" world to real life. By the way, did you know professional wrestling is not real also?

So you're saying these orders came from the top of the chain of command?

Maybe, but I'm not saying that because how could I know. Are we really sure this happened?

Martin van Creveld, a professor of military history and strategy at
Jerusalem's internationally respected Hebrew University, has told reporters
that, following his advice to US Marines, the American military bought nine
of the converted bulldozers used in the Jenin demolitions from Israel.

Professor van Creveld said he gave advice to
marines last year in Camp
Lejeune, North Carolina. He said he was
questioned about Israeli tactics in
Jenin, and told them the giant D9 bulldozers,
manufactured for civilian use
in the US but fitted with armour-plating in Israel,
were among the most
useful weapons.=20

Israeli troops at first found they could
not get their tanks and armoured
vehicles into the narrow alleys of the refugee
camp, so they bulldozed wide
swaths through houses to get them in.

If the US military intends to use
converted D9 bulldozers in Iraqi cities,
there is cause for concern.
We'll do crops 1st, then move to dwellings

their own war crimes...

"turn our fighting men & women into a bunch of puss'es, by all means do #2 & #4."--yes being thought of as a pussy is much much more important than persecuting war crimes...

Why do people hate Americans?
Reading insanity like this on a 'left' wing board is one

Being on the left of social issues but at the same time having concern over the morale of our troops is not insanity. I'm opposed to this war and I believe we need to get out. However, the reality is, we're there. What really gets my blood boiling is when blame is laid on the troops themselves by others, who I suspect, have never been in the military and haven't a real clue what these men & women are going through.

The rest of us are 2nd rate?
You'll call us when you need more $.
until then shutup and keep plowing.
That about sum it up?

What planet are you from?

Do you think the military is
1) at adequate level to police Iraq?
2)What are our objectives?
3)do we have an exit strategy?

BTW- on the Tolkien thing:
Imagination manifests Reality-
Barbara Streisand

Such an undertaking would be virtually endless and would require the sacrifice of enormous blood and treasure.

http://villagevoice.com/issues/0342/schanberg.php

"our fighting men & women into a bunch of puss'es", is not having the courage to stand up for what is moral and right. What is presented in this article, as well as on film, is immoral and WRONG!

Think, Nuremberg Trials.

We have become Israel with our own giant West Bank.

Absolutely disgusting.