Why wasn't VA rigged?

Given VA was "neck and neck" before yesterday, why didn't the Repigs rig that election?


Virginia's system...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2234789#2235944

Voter fraud is an overblown left wing boogieman scapegoat?

But it should be up there, and if it was, it would have my vote, as I posted earlier on another thread, the left has to stop looking for excuses for inaction and get out there and fight the fight.

Edited to add this: http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-0/113152145242680.xml&coll=1

Hope it helps.

I said it was overblown and used as a scapegoat.

not a scapegoat. Election fraud and campaign/GOTV inadequacies are mutually exclusive.

seen any compelling proof for fraud that cost the election is Gore. The Democrats have lost many other recent elections besides that one.


Oh and before you ask I have read the Conyers report and major sections of Mark Crispen Miller's book.

"The voting machines everywhere aren't rigged"

They ARE rigged, at will, everywhere. Unless you live in the magical land of OZ, in which case I make an exception.

MojoXN

there isn't a conspiracy every time we lose an election.

I just disagree with you. Sorry.

We need elections to happen in the light of day if we are to trust the process again.

It doesn't matter if the machines everywhere aren't rigged. It is obviously enough that SOME are rigged.

illusive - we don't know where or exactly how, but we know it happened. Just like Scott Peterson. He know he killed his wife, but they never really proved exactly where, why, or when

and Kaine didn't just obliterate Kilgore so badly, they couldn't cheat bad enough to beat him?

We MUST keep up the heat on Election Reform. We MUST.

TC

"they did rig, but didn't do it right"

would've been better as "they did rig, but fell short" (or something like that

--they didnt do it "right" is confusing :)

No big deal LauraPYB, otherwise good poll, and important to look at VA. We should NOT take VA for granted whatsoever. There is PLENTY of election tampering of all kinds in VA.

Plus we had optical scan in a lot of places, which is a tad harder to rig.

I think the rethugs thought that the shrub visit Monday night would carry Kilgore to an easy victory, so they probably didn't think they had anything to worry about.

There was a paper record here of everyone's votes. How could that be rigged?

The central tabulators spit out the strange numbers, and then Ohio election skeptics pressed for recounts.

At least one technician at a company called Triad apparently told the recount staff how to rig the machines' recount results to remain within the 3% margin of error and avoid triggering a messy and unwanted hand recount. A woman named Sherole Eaton came forward to describe this.

The paper records were locked away by Kenneth Blackwell.

That's the last I remember on it. It was definitely fishy.

the technology here to anyone to try to rig things.

Although, it does seem a little fishy to me that Creigh Deeds, who was leading most of the evening is now the loser, pending a recount.

paper just might give people a deceptive sense of safety.
Something to consider when making demands.
The way this thing has gotten out of control could make the solution more dangerous than the perceived problem.
People need to get their heads together and address the technology.
Call for competitive solutions.

There is nothing to say that they WEREN'T rigged. IMHO, rigged elections only work when the election is close. In this case, it wasn't.

you know they would've stole this one if they could so that they could claim it was due to *'s campaign visit... and the M$M would have run rampant with that

I think this is exactly what happened--that they couldn't cheat big enough without undue suspicion. (This option is not in this poll but should be).

VA's election system didn't get cleaned up overnight. But this time other factors outweighed the efforts of pro-GOP elves working behind the scenes.

ABSOLUTELY we must not assume this means that election reform is not still critical in VA and many other states. Those who wish to believe the system is not incredibly vulnerable to corruption will be pushing the idea that there was no tampering in VA. This is a dangerous assumption.

And the fact of eliminating exit polls was a BIG coup for the dark side...!

Of course, the fact that the margin was very close to what some of the pre-election polls showed (and I don't think any of those polls showed a larger Kaine margin of victory) is a bit of kink in my theory.

:sarcasm:

onenote

What did the machine magicians do, decide the lieutenant gov and attorney general races were more vital to Diebold for the GOP than the gov race? Kaine outpaced the other two Dems in those races by 5 points net. But now we're being told Kaine possibly won by much more than his actual numbers before the cheating.

That leaves two remarkable conclusions:

* Kaine did maybe 8-10 points (or pick a number) better than each of two other Democrats in a red state. Those are the same voters voting on the same day.

* The Diebolders messed with the lesser lieutenant gov and attorney general races because the gov race was either too unrealistic or not valuable enough.

If you guys remember what actually was reported in the GAO report, the machines would only change a percentage of what the actual vote was. In other words, they didn't work to change landslides, but instead increase REPUB votes in close elections.

Both Corzine and Kaine won by more than 5%.

that showed they voted GOP when they voted DEM... Voters educated about the... ahem shortcomings of different computer voting systems were alert and made sure their votes were corrected.

Also, why tip your hand and steal small stuff when there is big stuff to look forward to next year?

Man, lots of interesting characters out and about today.

A criminal is always more likely to commit a crime when having a high estimation that he or she will not be caught.

The Repukes have been feeling immune from prosecution for sometime, but among the many people working on election fraud, at least some players have to have less confidence in their immunity. Maybe some people are rethinking their participation.

Some of the weaker players will be inclined to play it straight for awhile in a climate of more scrutiny and suspicion.

That's the problem. Wins last night are great, however, the end result is the same. The private companies still want to count our votes so that they may control the outcome of who takes power.

Last nights initiatives in California were assaultive measures. In other words for them to go down was of course mandatory and its a hollow victory when we are back at square one. I am concerned we have to look at the reality. They want us to count these as huge victories when in reality it was a waste of millions of tax payer dollars for NOTHING here in California. They want us to think its a victory and now rest on our laurels with voting reform. Voting compannies and voting officials know they are in trouble and to have had a win last night would have sparked an outcry.

The end result is the same. We have no idea whos counting the votes, other than the fact they have strong (Republican) political roots and the past three elections have been rigged. Elections that counted. These counted to be sure, but the companies also realized they were going to get more unecessary and unwanted scrutiny today if the races had come out with questionable results.

However they still own the voting data and YOUR vote. Which means they still control the elections and their outcome.

See my post (Number 83 at the very bottom of thread)

positions to keep things clean.

on the election fraud. They may be laying low for a while.

after reading case after case of anomalies and mathematically improbabilities, I decided that I would actually bet my life on it.

actually continue to push the idea of actually rigging the elections. Now I won't say that there isn't minor attempts on both sides to push the tide their way using shady methods, but there is ZERO solid evidence that there is true election rigging. Everything I've seen in those regards has been nothing but typical far left propaganda.

:rofl:

Here's something to read that's not "typical far-left propaganda" :::

------------------
The Miami Herald Feb 03, 2005
ELECTIONS
Ukraine vote yields important lessons for U.S. democracy
BY LANCE DEHAVEN-SMITH

(excerpt)
"...unlike this year's presidential election in Ukraine, the 2004 presidential election in the United States was left intact despite legal challenges and protests. In large part this was because U.S. election laws and political culture fail to take into account the potential for systematic bias in election administration. U.S. laws and public opinion focus, instead, on the possibility that unscrupulous candidates might arrange for votes to be cast illegally by individuals using false identifications, forged absentee ballots, or other ruses.

Election shenanigans were common in the 19th Century and in much of the 20th, but in recent years they have been eclipsed by scattered mischief that is carried out or abetted by public officials responsible for election administration. One factor that has contributed to this shift from the conspiratorial tampering of the past to the massive fraud that is so prevalent today is the poorly conceived effort to remake government in the image of the private sector. In recent years, civil-service protections for government employees have been greatly weakened, and many governmental functions have been contracted out to private corporations.

These changes in American public administration have created a new spoils system that makes massive fraud likely in today's elections because it effectively ties public employment and government contracts to election outcomes. In Florida and Ohio, for example, many corporations, public officials and government workers had a vested interest in the reelection of President Bush. No conspiracy was needed to orchestrate their activities. Multiple biases with cumulative effects could be (and were) introduced into the election system through the independent efforts of numerous individuals acting on their own initiative in the pursuit of the same objective. Until U.S. election laws are reformed to guard against massive fraud, our elections will remain vulnerable to systemic abuses.

To be sure, bias in election administration could probably be prosecuted today under existing laws. Certainly, officials in Florida and Ohio appear to have violated their official oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and the constitutions of their states. They may have also broken federal civil-rights laws by intentionally weakening the voting power of African Americans. However, these acts of massive fraud have gone unpunished -- and, indeed, uninvestigated -- because most Americans have yet to recognize the new form of election tampering that is undermining our democracy."
Lance deHaven-Smith is professor of public administration and policy at Florida State University.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an investigation either. However, the lunatic fringe of the left speaks of this as if its fact. All even this article says is that "massive fraud is likely," likely is a lot different than fact. Sure there are plenty of things that could indicate there is and there are plenty of things that could indicate there isn't. There simply needs to be a real investigation. Sure, we know this isn't going to happen from this administration, however that in itself is definitely not an admission of guilt (as much as many of you would want to believe). I don't think by treating all the speculation as fact though you are doing much for the cause of actually finding out whether or not there was actual voter fraud.

no transparency, where machines are controlled by one party, where there is increasingly NO auditability -- why do you expect that there would be smoking gun evidence of fraud? There is a mountain of evidence for election tampering and fraud--but our system does not have the legal mechanisms nor political will to investigate and fight it effectively.

All good investigations begin with speculation based on facts. Go to the DU Election Reform forum to read up on those facts...if you're really interested in the subject.

Your "lunatic fringe" label for those who've worked hard on this gives you away--you are not on the side of election reform. So where are your ideas for how to deal with the massive problems inherent in a very sick system? You have no concrete suggestions. But you're not alone in your generic beliefs--as the article I posted states--most people have no idea of how widespread election corruption is. Talk to some people who actually work elections at the ground level. You'll get a different picture. They see it all the time, and they have long ago accepted that nothing can or will be done.

The "if you aren't with us you are against us" doesn't work with me pal, sorry.

don't respond to arguments. Just fold and go home.

So where are your suggestions re. how to get "investigations" that have some teeth to them? That's a reasonable question in reply to your remarks.

because of the fanatic attitude that I was confronted with (specifically speaking of what I already brought up). I've pretty much stopped dealing with leftist fanaticism on a serious level because I don't give it any more credence than the fundies.

However, I'll answer your question. I don't know what the best way to do it is other than by pushing for it. However, I repeatedly see people so desperate to villify everything that doesn't go their way and accept speculation as fact grabbing onto this issue and pushing it like "THERE IS CLEAR VOTER FRAUD AND WE NEED TO STOP IT." When all we really know is that the potential for fraud is there. It just strikes me as a case where the activists are more hurting their cause. You (generally) can't effectively back up a position with speculation (unless that speculation is manufactured/misinterpreted evidence/intelligence), unless of course your position is that there needs to be an investigation.

:hi:

I just generally don't postwhore.

:rofl:

This right here is borderline postwhoring.

I've been a heavy internet bber for years and I just get sick of the "yeah, you're right" or other one liners. Or just continued off topic posts. Its a good word.

I guess you should just put me on ignore 'cause all I do is post one-liners and pix. :D

The question we might ask is is it possible that we are so desperate for others to agree with us that we want to believe these elections are rigged?
As frightening as things have become, it might be a reasonable question.
I have no doubt that 2000 was stolen, and might be able to go along with a hypothysis that the horror of today could cause people to convince themselves 2004 must be an extension of that simply because deep down they are more optimistic about the people around them.

...

I have worked in elections. If you work at ground level, you will be amazed at what goes on.

Anyone who does not believe it's possible--I challenge you to talk to some of your local election workers in the Dem party, or better yet volunteer yourself (in just about any state except Oregon, where they have mail-in ballots). You will see it. The only difference is that with black box voting it can be more easily hidden than ever.

in fact, I said that I believed it happened.
It's a matter of how you believed it happens. And I do work with election workers. I work with my local clerk. Local clerks view is that the focus is in the wrong place. People have created a frenzy and lost sight of where other types of fraud can take place. When you focus on one thing you take your eyes off the many balls that can be juggled and pass you by.
Fools are those who may be distracted by a single comment. Structure of ballots overvotes and antiqucated machines are the biggest problems out there.
And, BTW you guys are being distracted when reports of every single time there are problems pops up. There are problems in every elections. Thus the concept of margin of error.
It is very important that if you really want to get serious about this that you pay attention to the real problems. None of the radical conspiracy theorists have been doing that.

matematically impossible. Sure, we don't know yet the how and the who, but we will someday. In the mean time, we have to protect ourselves the best we can.

you can't treat speculation as fact as this thread proves many people here do.

were an anomaly that could not exist if reality. HE could not have won unless all the stars were perfectly aligned, which they weren't. AND, the fact that each outcome favored B**, the probability rises to totally, completely impossible, or improbable ad infinitum....

Republicans can't win without fixing the elections because we are absolutely positive that we are in the clear majority. Whatever, the only fact is that the results favored Republicans, nothing more nothing less. This is exactly why I don't give people like you any more credence than the fundies. You can't make speculation fact because it conveniences you. I'm sorry that you didn't learn that in school.

Big mistake that they probably won't make next time around.

Virginia was the obvious choice, because the governor's only a one term office anyway. So advertise the fact that the state's got a bunch of brand new Diebold machines, and hey, the Democrat won! So there's no problem. No hacking. No election theft.

And people will buy it. As some of the replies in this thread prove already.

Sitting out 4 years and working behind the sidelines is common practice for these pigs, if they have a greater goal of evil planned. Why else do you think they ran Bob Dole for President in 1996? They knew the Chimp wasn't ready. Of course he still isn't ready, as far as I can tell, but that's beside the point.

so many people do not understand Rethug strategies--they are always looking ahead and will easily trade an immediate loss for longterm gain. They knew the climate in VA was favoring Kaine and they couldn't steal it big enough. So they will settle for a nice little win for Diebold et al. instead, and use that to advantage in future. The average voter will overlook the fact of the elimination of the exit polls and what that really means.

make what you are saying any less true?

"Elections are not generally rigged".

It was shocking and sad to see that more than a few DUers didn't even vote because they think the elections are rigged due to conspiracy theories spread on this forum.

Some people should just step AWAY from the tinfoil.

elections are not often rigged, so we should ignore the possibility. Okay. A little research into the history of elections will soon dissuade you of that idea. It hasn't always been Republicans doing it, either. It is not acceptable, no matter who does it.

It is also shocking that millions of Americans don't vote and have never voted because they feel the system can't be changed. Not so surprising that there are a few here who feel the same way.

...so we are unprepared for the whammy of the midterms next year.

Really, the oligarchy knows they need to maintain the illusion of democracy if they are to ward off dangerous populist unrest and possible revolution. Their drive to nearly monopolize the media is meant to be one avenue of such control. Unauditable black box voting machines is their insurance policy. But they still need to allow opposition party candidates to win on occassion, when the win is of no real import, in order for the illusion to be maintained.

The illusion of freedom in America will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre.
-- Frank Zappa

My concern with touchscreen machines is their easy vulnerability. I don't think that Republican would try to hack every since big election, because they would not get away with it after a while. I can see them doing it last year against Kerry but not this time. However, this should not stop us from challenging Diebold, Sequoia, or ES&S. For example, my state is getting touchscreen machines next year and will replace levers. They will likely not have have a paper trail. I do not want some random teenager from half-way around the world being able to hack into my precinct and choose Micky Mouse to be my next Governor. Likewise, I do not want a Republican to take advantage of the machines' vulnerability.

this was from early yesterday!!
http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=4089899&ClientT...


November 8, 2005
Voters report problems with voting machines in Roanoke Co.

Election day voting is going on across the Old Dominion, but everything has not gone smoothly in Roanoke County.

News 7 has received calls from several voters in at least four different precincts who say their votes for Tim Kaine were not recorded or took several attempts to go through.

They contend the electronic touch screens repeatedly indicated they were voting for Republican candidate Jerry Kilgore instead of registering their intended vote for his Democratic opponent Tim Kaine.

Roanoke Co. Registrar Judy Stokes says she doesn't want to say the problem is operator error on the part of the voters, but she points out the touch screens are sensitive. She says anyone who is having difficulty voting should ask one of the poll workers for assistance.

State election officials have been told of the problem. They believe if there is a problem, it could have been caused by the way the machines were stored.

The Kaine compaign is reportedly watching the situation in Roanoke County.

They use a host of complementary strategies to limit Dem turnout, challenge Dem voters, and skim a few votes here and there. They can only steal a few votes at a time, because if they ever get caught, there will be hell to pay. Virginia wasn't close enough; Florida in 2000 was, in large part because of suppression of Dem turnout through means fair but mainly foul.

The first time they get caught stealing votes with black boxes, black box voting will end. So they are not going to use it on a mere governor's race.

it's a bigger picture than e-voting alone. Skimming is what goes on all the time...they want to save black box voting for the big races.

I would say that they did try to rig the election but if an overwhelming number of people vote against the GOP then it makes election rigging very difficult.

Couldn't be...:eyes:

When we lose... it's Voter Fraud. And now.... when we win.... its "why was there no Voter Fraud?".
:crazy:

yesterday from people who said they thought they were trying to steal the election, but maybe if the vote is large enough they aren't able to do it?

this was from early yesterday!!
http://www.wdbj7.com/global/story.asp?s=4089899&ClientT...


November 8, 2005
Voters report problems with voting machines in Roanoke Co.

Election day voting is going on across the Old Dominion, but everything has not gone smoothly in Roanoke County.

News 7 has received calls from several voters in at least four different precincts who say their votes for Tim Kaine were not recorded or took several attempts to go through.

They contend the electronic touch screens repeatedly indicated they were voting for Republican candidate Jerry Kilgore instead of registering their intended vote for his Democratic opponent Tim Kaine.

Roanoke Co. Registrar Judy Stokes says she doesn't want to say the problem is operator error on the part of the voters, but she points out the touch screens are sensitive. She says anyone who is having difficulty voting should ask one of the poll workers for assistance.

State election officials have been told of the problem. They believe if there is a problem, it could have been caused by the way the machines were stored.

The Kaine compaign is reportedly watching the situation in Roanoke County.

Because, despite certain paranoid fantasies, there isn't some super secret cabal of technicians devilishly working to siphon off votes through technologicaly hocus-pocus. There is plenty of vote fraud, no doubt. Always has been, and always will be. Typically, its not that sophisticated -- turning away legitimate voters, stuffing the ballot box by having ringers vote, etc.etc.

Some of the posts here seem to think that there is some sort of magic threshhold where the otherwise rigged machines (how? not said) decide that a race is too lopsided and therefore no effort is made to steal the election. But think about it for a minute. Votes are cast in hundreds of precincts. In Virginia, only a few of those use the evil Diebold machines. Those machines have no way of knowing what the vote spread is on any other machines in any other precincts. There could be a 10 percent margin in one precinct, going one way, and a 10 percent margin going the other way in another precinct, for a dead heat. How would the machine know it was a close race, not a race where the balloting was lopsided?

Sorry, but the reason Kaine won (and Byrne lost for Lt. Gov) has nothing to do with "rigged" machines. It has to do with running a good campaign; with the fact that Kilgore's negative ads came back to bite him in the ass; with the fact that even in Virginia, the repugs are demoralized; with the fact that Mark Warner has been a huge success as governor; and with the fact that the demographics of Northern Virginia are changing, giving the state a "bluer" tint.

onenote

'they' don't always go to the same lengths for local elections that they do for BIG elections. And maybe some states are more prone to it than others.

Also, I think this 'lunatic' argument regarding vote fraud is crap. There is plenty to suggest that it has happened.

Furthermore, also crap, is the notion that just because people believe in it doesn't mean it makes people not vote. I beieve 100% that it happens and has happened, adn that sure as hell didn't keep my from voting yesterday. More often than not, I would assume that this would inspire those of us to vote than to NOT vote - we want to try and offset any votes lost via fraud, even as a 'just in case'.

And don't start yelling at me about ONE person on DU that you know didn't vote yesterday. It was a personal choice and I think it's completely innacurate as a reflection upon the rest of us for whom vote fraud is an issue.

It was totally emotional. I asked the people at the voting precinct in Texas if there was a paper backup and they looked at me starry eyed. Had no idea what I was talking about. I couldn't help it, I got so upset, I stood in front of the voting machine, and I thought, hell, it doesn't matter what I do. It's all a sham. So I walked out. Ok, next time I will vote even if it doesn't fucking matter that my vote will count or not, just in case it does.

I'm disappointed that you didn't vote, but I thought those people were ridiculously harsh with you. I hate it when people don't vote, but this IS a democracy. And the idea that everyone who believes in stolen elections doesn't vote, based on your one experience, was illogical and pissed me off.

:hug:

case. In TX, it didn't matter. Next time I will vote and I will sublimate all my feelings about how I know the whole thing is bogus.

Yesterday, there were reports in at least 4 counties, that some people who were intending to vote for Kaine, were having problems.

There were reports that either their votes for Kaine didn't go through, or that it took several tries.

Some people who used touch screens said they intended to vote for Kaine, but that it indicated they voted for Kilgore.

And so I was thinking today: Maybe Kaine won by more than the 5 point margin that's been officially reported from the election results.

And if so, this goes to prove what I have been saying all along: Elections that are landslides are very hard to steal.

Close elections, as we all know, are easy to steal.

So as Progessives, we have got to get our message out there, so that we won't have as many close elections as we've seen recently.

If the races aren't close, it will be very hard for the Rethugs to steal them.

posted about name switching on the touch screen Tuesday. Maybe Kaine won by a larger majority than reported.