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Listening to Randi Rhodes guest re: White Phosphorus

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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:52 PM
Original message
Listening to Randi Rhodes guest re: White Phosphorus
Some guy named John Pike from Global Security. Randi introduced him as some sort of weapons expert. This guy says that the pictures of the bodies in the Italian documentary do not appear to be indicative of the use of WP. Randi says after doing some research last night that she didn't think WP made sense either. WTF???
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. She's trying to find the truth...
right now, I'm pretty confused about just what, exactly, those pictures depicted. :shrug:
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I agree....
My "WTF" was not a comment on Randi having this guest on... it was my reaction to what the hell was it then.
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. That's what I assumed you meant
I lost the link to the pictures...do you have one?
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. No, I don't... but I think Randi has them on her website. n/t
I looked very quickly and didn't see them there today.
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mrfrapp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. MK77?
MK77 is the modern equivalent of Napalm. It uses kerosene instead of petrol.
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Pike says it wasn't MK77 either......
Both he and Randi were very focused on the fact that the victims' clothes were not burned. After he explained how WP and napalm works, it made sense to me that it couldn't have been WP or MK77, or any napalm type substance.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Video is on Truthout.
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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Video online in Flash 8 format and downloadable as a wmv file.
of the Italian production at http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah

as well as some snippets from Mark Manning's "Caught in the Crossfire" which was compiled from what did NOT get stolen when he came back from Iraq.

The White Death
By Chris Floyd


The film is shocking and powerful -- but it shouldn't be news. Credible evidence of American use of white phosphorous shells and napalm in Fallujah was presented in public nine months ago, by a top official of the pro-American, pro-occupation, Bush-approved Iraqi interim government. I first wrote about it in my Moscow Times column on March 18. (This link should take you to the MT article. If there is any difficulty, try this link.) I'll be writing more about the new documentary in the MT column for this week, but Rich has already got the goods in his report.

Below are some excerpts from the March 18, 2005 MT column, "Filter Tips: Muzzling and Massaging the Message of War":

President George W. Bush often complains about the "media filter" that distorts the true picture of his Administration's accomplishments in Iraq. And he's right. For regardless of where you stand on Mr. Bush's policies in the region, it's undeniable that the political and commercial biases of the American press have consistently misrepresented the reality of the situation.

Here's an excellent example. Earlier this month, the American media completely ignored an important announcement from an official of the Iraqi government concerning the oft-maligned U.S. operation to clear insurgents from the city of Fallujah last November. Although the press conference of Health Ministry investigator Dr. Khalid ash-Shaykhli was attended by representatives from the Washington Post, Knight-Ridder and more than 20 other international news outlets, nary a word of his team's thorough investigation into the truth about the battle made it through the filter's dense mesh. Once again, the American public was denied the full story of one of President Bush's remarkable triumphs.

Dr. ash-Shaykhli's findings provided confirmation of earlier reports by many other Iraqis – reports that were also ignored by the arrogant filterers, who seem more interested in hearing from terrorists or anti-occupation extremists than ordinary Iraqis and those like Dr. ash-Shaykhli, who serve in the American-backed interim government vetted and approved by Mr. Bush. But while the media elite turn up their nose at such riff-raff, the testimony of these common folk and diligent public servants give ample evidence of Mr. Bush's innovative method of liberating innocent Iraqis from tyranny:

He burns them to death with chemical weapons.....

....Eyewitness accounts from the few survivors of the onslaught – which killed an estimated 1,200 non-combatants – have consistently reported the use of "burning chemicals" by American forces: horrible concoctions that roasted people alive with an unquenchable jellied fire, InterPress reports. They tell too of whole quadrants of the city in which nothing was left alive, not even the dogs and the goats: quadrants that were sealed off by the victorious Americans for mysterious scouring operations after the battle. Others told of widespread use of cluster bombs in civilian areas: a flagrant violation of the Geneva Conventions, but a standard practice throughout the war.

The few fragments of this information that made it through the ever-vigilant filter were instantly dismissed as anti-American propaganda, although they often came from civilians who had opposed the heavy-handed insurgent presence in the town. Rejected too were the innumerable horror stories of those who had seen their whole families – women, children, the old and sick – slaughtered in the "liberal rules of engagement" established by Bush's top brass. Most of the city was declared "weapons free": military jargon meaning that soldiers could shoot "whatever they see – it's all considered hostile," the New York Times reported, in a story buried deep inside the paper.


at http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. These are simply the most brutal images of Fallujah
Don't click unless your gut is strong.


Dahr Jamail's Iraq Dispatches

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album28
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. randi said the pictures were on her website
But I cant find them. Anyone?
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. It was under the posts for yesterday's show... here's the link to the pics
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. thx n/t
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ToolTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. I don't think it much matters. They are still dead. We killed them.
n/t
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I think it's VERY important.
No doubt they're still dead, and we killed them. BUT... what did we use? If it wasn't MK77 or some other incendiary device, what was it? If I remember correctly, when this story came out almost a year ago, the first reports said "Napalm, Gas"..... what KIND of GAS??? MK77 and napalm are NOT in a gaseous form. Did we GAS them???????
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ToolTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
28. The whole war is a criminal enterprise.
What good does it do to accuse, or even prove, the criminals of immoral and illegal tactics, when we can't hang them for their criminal war?
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. the point is we might be developing new chemical weapons n/t
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Exactly! n/t
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. i remember reading about bodies in Fallujah which had a yellow substance
covering them and a sweet odor... As for the burnt bodies - last night on Democracy Now the expert on with Amy Goodman said that melting flesh but NOT clothes was consistant with WP.

Who is right?
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Clothes intact does not make a lot of sense to me.
WP is deployed as a powder which ignites... then the bit of flaming WP is what falls to the ground and continues to burn. It would burn anything flammable it came into contact with. Including clothes.

Come to think of it.... remember the infamous photo of the little girl from Viet Nam, a victim of a napalm attack? She was naked. This leads me to believe her clothes might have been on fire also so either she tore them off, or the burned away.

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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. white phosphorus
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 04:51 PM by PDJane
often does not burn clothes. It reacts to oxygen and some fats, and both are liberally present in flesh. It burns exposed areas, typically the upper extremities as it has enhanced solubility in lipids. In other words, it will burn a corpse to the bone, burn the lungs and the internal organs, and makes for a very, very, nasty & painful death........while leaving things like chicken feathers, fabrics and jewellry intact. That makes it very useful for killing people and leaving the infrastructure intact. It also takes a disproportionate toll on the civilian population.

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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Do you have a link to any experts of the damage done by WP?
I readily accepted the notion that it was WP used, however, now I have some questions. I'm NOT questioning that we used some kind of chemical agent to kill these civilians, but I think it's important for us to get this right. WHAT was it?
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. here's a link to democracy now's coverage
"JEFF ENGLEHART: The gases from the warhead of the white phosphorus will disperse in a cloud. And when it makes contact with skin, then it's absolutely irreversible damage, burning of flesh to the bone. It doesn't necessarily burn clothes, but it will burn the skin underneath clothes. And this is why protective masks do not help, because it will burn right through the mask, the rubber of the mask. It will manage to get inside your face. If you breathe it, it will blister your throat and your lungs until you suffocate, and then it will burn you from the inside. It basically reacts to skin, oxygen and water. The only way to stop the burning is with wet mud. But at that point, it's just impossible to stop.

REPORTER: Have you seen the effects of these weapons?

JEFF ENGLEHART: Yes. Burned. Burned bodies. I mean, it burned children, and it burned women. White phosphorus kills indiscriminately. It's a cloud that will within, in most cases, 150 meters of impact will disperse, and it will burn every human being or animal."


snip

"REPORTER: This war started with the intention to look for weapons of mass destruction. Is it not paradoxical that chemical weapons were in the end used by the United States?

ALICE MAHON: Absolutely. The hypocrisy is absolutely stinking. There were no weapons of mass destruction. This was a broken-back dictator who was a threat to no one. In my view, the Americans wanted to control the oil in the region. I'm afraid there is no hiding place from America and Britain in this war. The facts will come out, and Bush and my prime minister will be exposed."

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/08/1516227

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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. the pictures show people melted, but clothes intact... i don't understand
it seems counter-intuitive to me. I will go check the Democracy Now site and see if I can find what was said... Here is another bit on Fallujah....

http://www.iraqanalysis.org/briefings/232

"Residents who survived the attack reported seeing incendiary bombs used in the city. Abu Sabah, who lived in the Julan district of Fallujah which witnessed some of the heaviest attacks, said:

“They used these weird bombs that put up smoke like a mushroom cloud… then small pieces fall from the air with long tails of smoke behind them.” He said that pieces of these strange bombs explode into large fires that burn the skin even when water is thrown on the burns.<11>"
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. go to
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 05:49 PM by PDJane
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic918.htm


Mortality/Morbidity: Morbidity and mortality are related directly to trauma and burns sustained from exposure.

Burns usually are limited to areas of exposed skin (upper extremities, face). Burns frequently are second and third degree because of the rapid ignition and highly lipophilic properties of white phosphorus.
Trauma usually is a combination of blunt and penetrating. Blunt trauma results from the percussion and force of the blast, and penetrating trauma results from projectiles produced from the explosion.

from http://www.nsc.org/library/chemical/phsphor.htm

Health effects
White phosphorus is a poison which can be absorbed through skin contact, ingestion, or breathing. If its combustion occurs in a confined space, white phosphorus will remove the oxygen from the air and render the air unfit to support life. Long-term absorption, particularly through the lungs and the gastrointestinal tract, can cause chronic poisoning, which leads to weakness, anemia, loss of appetite, gastrointestinal weakness, and pallor.

Eating or drinking less than one teaspoon of white phosphorus can cause vomiting; stomach cramps; liver, heart or kidney damage; drowsiness; and even death. Being burned with white phosphorus can cause heart, liver, and kidney damage. Breathing white phosphorus may damage lungs and throat.

White phosphorus can cause changes in the long bones; seriously affected bones may become brittle, leading to spontaneous fractures. White phosphorus is especially hazardous to the eyes and can severely damage them.

High concentrations of the vapors evolved by burning white phosphorus are irritating to the nose, throat, lungs, skin, eyes, and mucus membranes.

Breathing white phosphorus can cause coughing and the development of a condition known as phossy jaw -- poor wound healing in the mouth and a breakdown of the jaw bone. The most common symptom of exposure to white phosphorus is necrosis of the jaw.

Exposure to white phosphorus can also cause nausea, jaundice, anemia, cachexia, dental pain, and excess saliva.
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. I heard most of the interview. He said those bodies look mostly
like they died of causes other than napalm.

I'm not looking at the photos. that's what he said on the show. If the skin is leathery, it's because of rot, not napalm. He said napalm would scortch and burn, not make it look leathery.

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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:19 PM
Original message
Napalm, yes..........
But we were talking about white phosphorus, and that is what white phosphorus does. White phosphorus has to be kept under water, or it ignites. The stuff melts flesh right off the bones, burning exposed flesh first. You can suffocate the stuff, but water doesn't douse it; when it dries out again, it WILL REBURN.

Napalm or MK77 is a different story; that is a flammable substance like jet fuel or kerosene mixed with a form of plastic so that the stuff adheres to the skin and clothes. It will ignite clothes first and then burn the flesh. They are two different chemicals with two different formulations but the same result.

They are both WMD, and they both kill people quickly and painfully.
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. double post
Edited on Wed Nov-09-05 07:20 PM by PDJane
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
18. A link to info about John Pike, the guest on Randi's show today.
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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
25. They are WRONG
US Army Admits Use of White Phosphorus as Weapon

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5314738

Breaking on Steven D's diary at Daily Kos

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/9/164137/436

And the documents here prove it!

I have translated the PDF docs (THE PROOF) to HTML here:


Top Left hand corner of page....

I changed the PDF into HTML structure for easier perusal...



http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah
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