An update on the "Wal-Mart Cart Fiasco" (I got an e-mail back)

Original thread HERE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5330026

So I sent an e-mail to the organizers:

Are you TRYING to hurt Wal-Mart workers??
These people are making a pittance and are frequently "encouraged" to work off of the clock. Why would you advocate making their lives more difficult (especially with your recommendation of abandoning "hard-to-reshelve" items)?

Do you REALLY think that this will have any effect of Wal-Mart as a corporation?

The only thing you're accomplishing is making an underpayed, uninsured and overworked employee's day a little more difficult.

If this is indicative of the methods you're advocating to hurt Wal-Mart, I can see why Wal-Mart's been so wildly successful.


THIS is the e-mail I got back:


The suggestion from Fairbanks, Alaska I think is a reasonable one, and
part of a much larger effort. Whether the WM worker is collecting carts in
the parking lot, or restocking shelves, WM is suppposed to be paying them
their hours, and the company swears that they do not condone off the clock
work.

Remember it is WM management that poorly pays these people, not citizens
who are fighting WM. These people in Fairbanks are taking their time,
without pay, to go to WM to engage in civil disobedience.

Do I REALLY think it will have an impact on WM? Well, it had an impact on
YOU.

If you have a better suggestion to pass along to people about stopping WM,
please let it be known. I have been urging people not to shop at WM, and
apparently as many as 8% of WM shoppers surveyed recently said they are no
longer shopping because of the company's bad reputation. Would you tell me
not to urge people to boycott WM? That will hurt workers much more than
the "leave a cart" plan.

Al


GET AL NORMAN'S NEW BOOK, "THE CASE AGAINST WAL-MART" by calling toll-free
1-877 DUNK WAL.

You can also order the classic "Slam Dunking Wal-Mart: How You Can Stop
Superstore Sprawl in Your Hometown" by calling 1-877 DUNK WAL.

To phone Al directly: 413-772-6289 after 7 pm EST and weekends.

Mail Address: 21 Grinnell St, Greenfield,MA 01301

NEW! MAKE MONEY FOR YOUR ANTI-SPRAWL GROUP: You can sell Al's two books
and keep a good share of the sales for your local fund-raising effort.
Spread the anti-Wal-Mart message, and support your own local efforts.
Email neil@raphel.com for further details!


Here's his E-mail address:

info@sprawl-busters.com

Tell him what you think.

Al Norman *did* actually beat Wal-Mart, just across the river from my town. I'm not convinced this shopping cart thing is the right approach, but he does have a lot of credibility.

This must be one of his.

Yeah, that Rosa Parks was a real slacker compared to these brave Starbucks radicals.

"Do I REALLY think it will have an impact on WM? Well, it had an impact on YOU."

The fact that the idea had an impact on you is completely unrelated to whether the action in Fairbanks will have an effect on the WalMart corporation.

Just for that stupid statement I wouldn't support this guy or the action.

I've been reading all these bizarre defenses of Wal Mart and I've been thinking, I've never seen a proposal for civil disobenience generate such bizarre defenses of the corporation involved. The conclusion I'm drawing is that this must be c.d. that 's going to be very effective.

Could you post a few links? I've been here all evening and haven't seen any of those.

otherwise.

Did you see that post?

wasn't being discussed.

not a single employer hired people with disabilities.

Glad their PR is working on you.

Read the whole thread!

They are defending the employees. Not the bad guys at the top who won't give two shits about full carts needing to be reshelved.

The only thing that Corporate will care about is their pockets- and this won't effect their pockets. People need to be informed, and therefore seek out other places to do their business.

This only serves to hurt the little guy, who has no other option but to work for Wal-Mart if bills are to be paid and children fed.

will have to work unpaid overtime to do their job.

I wouldn't fix my entire argument on that peg.

Every low level job I've ever worked has WELCOMED more work. If you work too fast, everyone complains about you. People are praying there's enough work so nobody gets fired. People pray for overtime.

All these people who think more work is to do is going to hurt the little guy, uh, have you ever worked a job where you were the little guy?

Some more manufacturing. And that's about it. I've put in my 2 cents, I'm sure I'll see you in another thread sometime.

and I cannot imagine welcoming more work. Also I am a person who does not really care for overtime. Some of that depends on how over-staffed a place is, and how much over-time is available.

It is not about the over-time, which probably will not happen anyway. It is about having more work dumped on you, for the same pay, because people are trying to hurt your employer.

Any American working for low wages who doesn't find their ENTIRE DAY filled with unfulfilling drudgery will find themselves without many people in the same boat.

How is reshelving so much worse than any other task you perform at WalMart?

Do you think WalMart employees would be sitting around the watercooler discussing their 401(k) performance, comparing plastic surgeons, discussuing their next vacation to france, or talking about their golf games if they weren't restacking the shelves?

is inflexible with people who are five months pregnant. I think they also lost a series of gender discrimination suits recently.

This protest is about encouraging Wal Mart to be a better corporate citizen. So far the alternatives I've seen have included, "BUY THINGS AT WALL MART AND WRITE CHECKS!" Huh???

This cart thing is a very effective form of protest.

work.

There's a lot of examples of them NOT doing so. Gimme some evidence that suggests they WILL.

I always seem to have about ten hours worth of work that I am supposed to get done in seven. The last thing I want to see is a bigger mess.

It is not about restocking shelves being worse than any other task. It is about having a set of things to do in an hour - say A, B, C, and D. Now because of some dickheads there are also two or three full carts that need to be restocked. Management is certainly not going to solve that problem by giving us more time, it is going to solve that problem by pushing us to work faster.

hasn't tried to squeeze more work out of employers in less and less time.

WalMart workers are filling every minute. Mgt are going to have to keep pushing restocking on to the next shift until they realize they're not getting the product on the shelf, and if they can't do that, they can't sell it. That's when they have to either hire more staff, pay overtime, or become good corporate citizens.

It doesn't MATTER that their minutes are all filled. Management's stance will always be that they can work harder. Those who can't keep up will be replaced with younger, stronger employees.

harder.

Hey, you think it's ethically O.K. to create more work for the underpaid for no damn reason? Your choice. It sounds like a shitty thing to do to me.

They'll have to hire more employees, or pay overtime.

That's why this is such an effective protest.

It makes work and cuts into profits and the work it creates can't be outsourced to China or India.

What evidence do you have that Wal-Mart will pay overtime or hire more employees?

I can show evidence that they tell employees to work off the clock if they want to keep their jobs.


Care to play?

back.

What evidence do you have that Wal Mart will leave the carts in the aisle? And if they're going to force them to work off the clock, why not for everything and not just the carts?

That is the most bizarre argument! Wal Mart has a history of exploiting workers, so any attempt to protest the exploitation is bad because Wal Mart will exploit the workers. WalMart was worked us into a tautological check mate, I guess. Should we surrender?

Wal-Mart DOES force employees to work off the clock "for everything and not just the carts". Read any news in the last couple of years?

The argument is that this will have no effect on Wal-Mart but it WILL make the employees' days more difficult. I didn't advocate surrender, but a nonsensical "protest" that punishes the workers and doesn't make the slightest dent in the corporation is just plain stupid and abusive.

Remember it is WM management that poorly pays these people, not citizens who are fighting WM.

This guy sounds like he wants to pull this stunt without much regard to what it does to what.

Your email however is right on. The management doesn't care if the employees have to put up dozens of carts full of merchandise. Why punish the workers for something the corp heads have done? There is no logic in that. Dumb asses.
Duckie

thing that Wal Mart would like these people to do without paying them overtime?

And what are they going to do? Fire everyone who can't do the overtime? They need the people there to take care of the carts. They're not about to fire people.

I have a friend who refuses to use automatic checkout lanes because she's trying to make work for the working class. This protest is very similar.

Would you object to people who refuse to use automatic checkout lanes because not doing so means that someone might have to work 5 minutes overtime without getting paid?

there are many, many others that will take their place. There are hundreds of people in my area of Indiana that would jump at the chance to work at the new super wal-mart they just finished building up the street.

Yeah, they will fire people who won't do overtime. They have thousands of applicants just waiting to hear from them.

Especially before Christmas?

Nobody is going to get fired as a result of this kind of civil disobedience unless they catch an employee filling up the shopping carts and leaving them in the aisles. And, having worked a few crappy jobs in my life, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of WalMart workers aren't contemplating doing that!

"Fire everyone who doesn't work overtime."

I was responding to that statement.

live person doesn't run the risk of being told to work overtime without pay and then fired?

Is your goal everytime you engage in commerce to make sure that you create as little work as possible for people?

I think America is better when people who work get paid, and not when the CEO and shareholders can cash-in thanks to exploiting people at the bottom. I don't mind activism that shifts money toward working people, especially when it's goal is to discourage larger corporate policies which exploit workers and taxpayers on a much larger scale.

And, by the way, is the answer to my other question, "no, you're right, they're not going to fire people when they have work for them to do"?

No, I don't use automatic checkout lanes. I shop in a grocery store where there are none. When I do shop at a grocery store with auto checkout lanes, I go to a live person. What that has to do with anything, I don't know, but there's your answer.

When I engage in commerce, as you put it, I grab what I need, I go to the checkout lane, I pay for my products, and leave. If I need help, I ask for help.

This whole leaving full carts thing, is not a form of engaging in commerce, so your question there is moot.

Leaving full carts, is not going to do anything other than create a hassle for the workers. Corporate will not bat an eye. It does not effect their pockets.

This "activism" is not going to shift any money towards these workers.

And as for your last question, no that wasn't my answer. I think you can see clearly where I stand on this. If I thought this "activism" would have any positive effect for the employees, I would be all for it, but Corporate will not give a damn about petty and lazy "activism" unless it actually effects their pockets. A little bit of spoiled milk or cheese or melted ice cream is less than pocket change for the folks at the top. Want to make a difference? Hand out fliers. Inform people. Anyone who gives a damn will then on inform others.

What's the difference between stocking the shelf the first time, versus the second time, versus cleaning the toilet, or working at the checkout lane?

These jobs are miserable from the minute you walk in, to the minute you walk out.

People will be glad to know there's enough work so that they don't get downsized or outsourced.

The positive effect this will have is that WalMart, once it starts losing profits, might decide to be the sort of corporate citizen which isn't constantly making news because they're ripping offf their employees or taking much much much more out of the communities they're in then they put in.

It'll work on Wal-Mart Corporate because it got a reaction out of ME?

That's the one of the most idiotic conclusions I've ever heard.

Not because I think this will have much impact on Walmart or that its even that great of an idea but because I think it sounds like fun! I was looking forward to doing this and feeling young again. It absolutely won't hurt the employees as some have suggested. I know because I use to work at a grocery store and had to put items back from carts several times. Did I care? Hell no! Whats the big fucking deal???? I would have much rather put items back from a cart then run register, work in the ice cold cooler, bag groceries or clean.

I get the impression most on DU have gotten OLD!!!! Where is the youthful spirit and mischief we all had when we were young? This is legal and sounds like it would be fun. If if huts Walmart a little then GOOD!!!!!

Don't be an old fart! Have some fun and be young again! Fill up some carts and leave them all over the place! If ten thousad people do this it would really send Walmart a message! Good for this guy for sticking to his guns!

FUCK WAL-MART!

Shall we expect a string of "Yo Mama" jokes now?

I'm not wealthy enough to have one of those! :rofl:

I AM the working class.

Have been all my life.

When did you start aligning your interests with the employers, presuming you're a WalMart defender on this issue?

all up and down this thread.

I absolutely sympathize with the working class because I AM part of it. I have been since I was born and I am 40 now. I have been both employee and employer in the past 4 decades but I have never lived in a household making more than 30,000 per year combined annual income.

I have also lived both in rural Indiana and upper class neighborhoods of Stamford, CT. I know first hand that it is infinitely easier to make progressive choices in the upscale neighborhoods than it is in rural America where choice is for the most part non-existant.

I also know business and what affects management and owners vs. what affects the working class. This protest, as designed, craps on the workers. Period.

Congratulations, btw. I rarely feel anything approaching anger at stupid comments such as yours. But tonight, your idiotic take on this issue has raised my emotional level from amused disinterest to disgust.

Have a nice night. I won't be responding any further so if you need to take a cheap parting shot, feel free.

corporate citizen, and people defending WalMart because they think this protest will hurt workers, forcing them to divert attention from all the EXCITING and INTERESTING things they do during their shifts to the drudgery of stocking shelves, and that cost is just not worth the gain, I believe are having serious problems figuring out with whom their sympathies should lie.

This is the great accomplishment of corporate American: convincing people to sympathize with their plight so much so that they would give up their own happiness through some twisted rationalization that it's actually better for them not to have to go through the trouble of having their employers deal with the consequences of their bad corporate citizenship.

If you're going to be sarcastic, the :sarcasm: thingie sure helps clarify things.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5330026#5333301


You don't even care if it'll make a difference. You just want to have fun.

Sad.

and under It cost walmart 25 cents to process that check (I think) if you bought only a chocolate bar or anything close to 25 cents you could hurt their wallets without hurting an employees back.

maybe that's a dumb idea

If I had to chose between the cart thing and paying WalMart even a penny, I'm going with the cart thing.

I was only offering up another solution, but I won't do it. Having worked retail myself, having kids and a family to take care of by the end of the day the last thing you want to do is clean up other people's shit.
Especially carts full of it, and a manager who won't let you go home until it's done or slumps it on to the next employee who walks through the door.

for there not to be enough work for you because you don't want to get laid off.

The best thing about this protest is that WalMart can't outsource stacking its shelves to China.

Wal-Mart employees complaining about being UNDERworked.

That's their second biggest complaint behind the huge wages they receive...

:eyes:

I'm sure they'll support Republican politicians who are willing to pass laws to make this sort of thing a crime.

I don't see support for Walmart in this thread. I see most people supporting the working class in this thread.
You can't support the working class by making their lives harder.
*YOU* do support the working class right?

people from engaging in a very effective protest that might actually work to convince WalMart there is a cost to its bad corporate citizenship.

The idea that this creates a hassle for working people reveals that people have no idea what it is that the working class do in jobs like these.

A bunch of people come in, fill carts, and leave.

Do you REALLY think the managers will say "Well, it looks like people don't like the way we do business. I'd better call corporate and have them change their ways."?

No. The managers will say "Looks like you have some extra work to do today...better get to it.".


The idea that this will have ANY effect on Wal-Mart as a corporation shows a frightening lack of reason.

have worked out algorithims to figure out just how much it costs to put things back on the shelves in an average day, and I'll bet you that if four or five people did this in each store a couple times a week, those accountants would notice.

NPR did a story abotu how call centers for large corporations can save millions of dollars just by saving one second from the length of the average call. It's an economy of scale. Wal Mart is huge.

This is a brilliant for of protest.

Furthermore, as corporations become more and more removed from democratic proceses (we can no longer count on our elected representatives to encourage good corporate citizenship), the only thing left is getting the attention of the accountants.

But, I'm certain even forms of democratic protest like this would be made illegal if they became too effective. (So people should live it up while they're still not criminal and give them a shot.)

They've demonstrated that they intend to work employees as hard as they can (read their leaked employment memo from a couple of weeks ago?).

They've demonstrated that they'll "encourage" employees to work off the clock.

What's the cost to Wal-Mart? Nothing. Nada. Zilch....and they have an endless supply of applicants. If somebody doesn't like the extra (bullshit, created by "activists") work, they can quit.


Again, what makes you think Wal-Mart will pay one extra DIME to deal with this?

gives the word Democrat a bad name.

Don't shop at Wal-Mart.

Tell your friends and family to not shop Wal-Mart.

Write letters to your local newspapers, your elected officials, Wal-Mart corporate headquarters, about their bad practices.

But the sheer bullheadedness of filling carts to make more demeaning, dreary, tiring drone work for people who are already in a really shitty job, probably because it's the best job they can find for someone in their circumstances, in their area, is just cruel.

It also doesn't exemplify the Golden Rule.

Personally, when I shop anywhere, I try to put back anything I've tried on and don't want, and anything I've put in my cart and decided I don't want. There are enough selfish asshole slobs out there who just don't care for their own idiotic reasons. If you emulate their actions and think you're making some kind of political point, understand that the person who has to clean up your mess is NOT thinking, "Oh, right on, radical activist brother/sister! We're sticking it to The Man!"

That person is thinking about what an asshole you are and how his/her day would have been much nicer without having to deal with your mess.

Retail stores such as Wal-Mart base their labor hours on sales.
X sales = X hours of labor. This will just create more work for people already overworked.
But hypothetically, even if it does force Wal-Mart to hire one or two extra $6 an hour employees at each store that's about $100 a day. The average annual sales per store is $51,095,305 http://www.bizstats.com/storesales.htm.
I don't see this having any noticeable effect on a corporation that size.