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Intelligent Design--So it *IS* all about God!

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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:47 AM
Original message
Intelligent Design--So it *IS* all about God!
Every time the wing nuts bring up ID, they never mention "God" as part of the "theory". It's always just some generic "higher intelligence", which in theory could include advanced aliens or that noodle deity that's been sighted lately. They say it's not injecting religion into the classroom, it's just giving kids the opportunity to hear more than one side of the "issue" of evolution.

So here comes Pat Robertson, on the Dover, PA voters who voted the ID rascals off their school board:

I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover, if there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city. And don't wonder why He hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I'm not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that's the case, don't ask for His help because he might not be there.

Thanks ever so much for clearing that up, Pat--I was really having some trouble with the vagueness surrounding the whole ID thing. At least you're being honest for once.

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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, yeah
He just made liars out of all the lawyers representing the intelligent design folks in that lawsuit. Their witnesses, too.

I would think that his fatwah on Dover might take the form of Jerry Falwell's chins falling on the town.

Time to smite Pat Robertson, God. If You're listening.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Yep--what are they going to say?
Edited on Sat Nov-12-05 11:55 AM by Terran
That Pat Robertson doesn't know what he's talking about?? Not likely.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Oh, yeah
they sure dropped the mask on that one, didn't they?
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jayctravis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. Isn't Pat essentially taking the Lord's name in vain?
God's not upset about how people voted, Pat Robertson is. And he's threatening that God will either smite or ignore that area because of it.

It amounts to him saying "God Damn this city."

Like he has some sort of special control over what God thinks or does to other people.

I'm sure God would not enjoy being reduced to something akin to a voodoo curse.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Yes, and he does it every time he opens his mouth.
This man claims to know God's mind. On a routine basis. So if there really is a God and a Heaven and a Hell, there can be little doubt which one he's going to. Seven deadly sins and all, he's guilty of Pride a million times over.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. And it's really sad too
Robertson could be using his influence on the religious people in so many differnet positive ways but he choose this route. It shows me he doesn't care either way and is more about serving the god moolah (or money) than the true God of us Christians. When has Robertson spoken out against all the programs the republicans are taking away such as food stamps? Pure cricket chirps. He's turning people away from Christianity because people just think that he's the spokesman when he isn't. I think a lot more people are speaking out against him though. On this Christian board I go on basically only two people were on his side (one giving him the benefit of the doubt and the other purely sticking up for him).
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dargondogon Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. Actually, it's about whether you're a Homo
Fundies hate evolution because it introduces the biological name of the human species -- Homo sapien -- and our whacked-out distant uncle, Homo erectus, to our tender, impressionable children.

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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Hmmm.
You may be on to something. :think:
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
60. Oh that is too funny!
I wonder how those guys are feeling now!
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mconvente Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. As much of a Freudian Slip this is
This really does have significant consequences. Any district/families in districts can challenge the implementation of ID into their district because perhaps the most "revered" (sarcasm) Christian just admitted ID is about God and Creationism. So ID can be shot down now - it's clear what it's agenda is.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. No its not, its about the Flying Spagetti Monster!!!!
Edited on Sat Nov-12-05 11:52 AM by Solon
Let us all be touched by his noodley appendage, and feel dirty about it too!!!! :evilgrin:
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. His Most Revered Noodliness...
yeah, Him too! :crazy:
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yes!.. Hallelujah! I have seen his "Angel Hair"..
..and it is good.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Actually, that brings up another question...
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Yes!
Intelligent Design by Divine Committee! The Subgenius, Flying Spaghetti Monster, and..and...Cthulhu!
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Looking at it objectively...
If the world and universe are intelligently designed, it does look like a committee did it, doesn't it? :)
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. And clearly when the Committee got around to creating humanity
they were tired and bored and needed a nap.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. I thought that by the time they got around to making us...
Cthulhu got hungry and ate the other two, finishing the job of making us, then taking a nap.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. That was not included in the Cannon, but...
many do believe that is the true Origin!
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
42. Definition of Committee
"Only known life-form with three or more bellies and no brain"-RAH
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Autonomy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
43. On the first day, They fought over what to order for lunch
and the whole project has been shot to hell ever since.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. With a little pesto
and sundried tomato. :9
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Praise Alla Dente!
:silly:
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. Listen, we need to discuss this Spaghetti monster thing
because if I'm going to get on board, I need to know about sauce.

Is it marinara? Al Fredo? Or just plain noodle?

Because I like a lot of ritual with my religion and the the plain noodle would be a bummer. Kind of like a Quaker Meeting.

Now, the marinara..lots of garlic. Good smells... good times. A little red wine.

I could go there.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Orthodox Flying Spaghetti Monster adherents
must do without sauce; a little wine is okay. Reformed, you get marinara (no garlic). Everybody else, do as thou wilt.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
70. Okay, I need more
is the spaghetti whole wheat? Semolina? Ala dent? Organic?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
54. Our heaven has a beer volcano
Not really my thing, but the college kids love it.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. All hail the FSM
through his noodly appendages we will know peace. :+
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mestup Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. Fundies always use terms to "stealth" their agenda
They're so sneaky.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Exactly
for people who are supposed to be pious and Godlike and truthful and everything Jesus espoused, they are awful damned deceptive about their agenda.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
7. Which god? Pat has the wrong one. It was definitely the Flying Spaghetti
Monster. He created everything: mountains, trees, midgets. :)
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
8. In the words of ID "scientist" and Baylor professor William Dembski
Edited on Sat Nov-12-05 12:05 PM by Sandpiper
"...any view of the sciences that leaves Christ out of the picture must be seen as fundamentally deficient."

and

"Intelligent Design opens the whole possibility of us being created in the image of a benevolent God."



Not only were we designed, but we were "created in the image of a benevolent God."

Hmmm, now where have I heard this before. Oh yeah, in Genesis.


Was there ever any doubt what ID was about?
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. None.
Pat has just made that whole thing clear for the masses now. We should thank him, really.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
62. Exactly
And I've also heard it argued that when it's said that God created us in his likeness it was more about our souls and not our bodies. When you read in Genesis about forming Adam and Eve there's hardly any emphasis on it. Just Adam came from the dirt and Eve from his ribs. Oh and how do you think they populated after Adam and Eve had children? Heh heh. Pure incest all the way.
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. Here is a post I made a few weeks back
In regards to this very issue of not mentioning "God":

===============================

"Intelligent Design" backers just might not enter Heaven.

Since ID is merely "Creationism" under a new banner and a sneakier way to push the Christian agenda well...

I do believe that not being straight forward with motives has cosequences, according to their Lord:

Matthew 10:32-33: Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 12:8-9: Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

================================

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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Lordy lordy
Another angle I hadn't thought of. Very good!
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. It was the basis of their agenda to sneak ID into schools
by making the "ID" generic. Bobblehead Robertson just blew that cover sky high. People should now challenge the new Kansas law, allowing ID to be taught in their public funded schools
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Right. All the joking aside...
I think this does create a legitimate basis on which to challenge ID legally wherever it goes. And as this thread shows, Robertson wasn't the first to admit this.
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. I totally agree. It is a legitimate argument that ID is based on the God
of the bible and religious teaching, via Pat Robertson's admission. On that basis should not be allowed to be taught in Public Funded Schools as science.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. But their agenda has never really been a secret
Dr. Phillip Johnson, one of the founders of the ID movement, stated publicly:


"Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of Intelligent Design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools."

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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yes, but when they bring it you locally...
they don't say that, I think. ID is just now trying to worm its way into my state, Missouri, via the legislature. And the woman who will be sponsoring the bill has said just what I said in my OP--that it's not about religion, it's about presenting two sides of an "issue". They know that a lot of people won't stand for acutally institutionalizing Christianity in schools, so they are trying to slip in in. I just bet they have some printed strategy somewhere that says exactly this.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Here are a few helpful links for you
With numerous quotes from the "brains" behind ID saying what ID is really about:


http://home.kc.rr.com/bnpndxtr/download/HorsesMouth-BP007.pdf

http://home.kc.rr.com/bnpndxtr/download/WhoSaid-BP005.pdf

http://www.socastee.com/



Bring these up whenever someone either dishonestly or ignorantly claims that ID isn't about religion.

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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Thank you
I will certainly save these!
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
55. I wrote an article about it last year, in our state...
Here it is, never published though, its one of my samples:

Legislating Science

The Attack on Science by Law and Politics

The old time creationists have evolved. Right now in the Missouri Legislature, HB911 would insert Intelligent Design “Theory” into science textbooks and classrooms across the state. Rather than talking about how such a theory, if it can be called that, violates the First Amendment of the Constitution. Instead let’s talk about how it violates the scientific process and relies on misunderstanding and biased assumptions to “prove” it.

According to the Bill HB911, intelligent design (ID) is the “hypothesis that the complex form and function observed in biological structures are the result of intelligence and, by inference, that the origin of biological life and the diversity of all original species on earth are the result of intelligence.” Now I won’t dwell on the origin of the intelligence in question, for the bill does not cover that, and to be honest the being or beings in question could be anything from God, to ancient, alien robots that tinker with life.

No, the problem with the theory of ID is that it is not testable or provable using scientific methodology. The argument that most supports ID is laid out in the quote above and that in itself are and argument that is called by proponents of ID as Irreducible Complexity. Irreducible Complexity (IC) was first introduced in the book, Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution.

The primary assumption made in intelligent design is the idea that organisms are too complex to come from random chance or natural selection. The inference is that they must have been designed and therefore cannot have evolved. This methodology is upside down of how the scientific method works. The proponents of ID are relying on the lack of understanding that most people have of science to push a theory that has no basis in fact. A scientific theory must face 4 primary tests to be accepted by the scientific community, it must be testable, it must be able to predict, and it must be able to withstand scrutiny by peers of the scientific community, and finally it must be able to be disproved.

The Theory of Evolution has been successfully tested in fact and has withstood the scrutiny of peers. Intelligent design has not. This is not to say that the theory of evolution doesn’t have problems, of course it does. The theory has been refined and rewritten as new discoveries in such things as genetics have occurred. No scientific theory is beyond all doubt, and none are beyond dispute. Darwin had no knowledge of genetics, and therefore did not write about the basic mechanism in which traits are passed down through generations.

The basic fallacy of intelligent design is the use of static examples in proving the theory. Popular objects such as watches or mousetraps are used in comparison to living things. The question to ask is if intelligent design is a valid theory, how do you tell between a designed object such as a watch and a plant? Life is flexible and adaptive, and comparing it to non-living objects is like comparing a ball bearing to an orange.

Representative Cynthia Davis, R-19th District uses a classic example in logical fallacy to support the theory of intelligent design. “If I walk into the kitchen and see some milk on the floor, I do not need to know who spilled the milk to know it did not jump out of my refrigerator and spill itself.” Now how is that related to either the theory of evolution or intelligent design? How she came to compare living organisms to spilled milk is beyond me, for the comparison is not apt to how the theory of evolution works. She displays a basic ignorance on the mechanisms of change that drive the evolutionary process. Most of those mechanisms are not random, nor are they mere chance. Mutation is one mechanism that does drive evolution but most mutations are harmful to the survival of a species and are weeded out by not being reproduced in said species.

The esteemed representative from the 19th district has not used the proper analogy to compare evolution to intelligent design theory, so allow me to use another one. If I walk into the kitchen and open the refrigerator and see that the milk is spoiled, did that happen by design or not? Did some intelligence decide that the milk was in my fridge for too long, or was it simply the bacteria in the milk that were eating it all along? Most people would not think that any being would make such a decision at all, and that it happened by simple biological processes.

I will not make an exhaustive rebuttal to the theory of intelligent design and this article is not that. I simply pointed out some logical fallacies that the proponents of the theory use to confuse the issue. It is not attack on religion that science is about. Rather it is the understanding of the world using deductive reasoning that is the basis of all science. Intelligent design fails to meet up to the standards that are set in science and should not be introduced in public schools as an equal and competing theory. Scientific theories are open to rebuttal and change, and scientists themselves are willing to test theories to and controversial theories, if the competing theories are able to withstand the test of scrutiny by peers in the scientific community. Theories about life should not be made by legislators nor by politicians, but by those people who dedicate their lives to understanding our world and how the world works.


NOTE TO MODS: This is an original work by me, I relinquish all copywrites to said work.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
64. Right
Even Bush said it that way. It's about debating different views and ideas. :eyes: Anyone who pays attention to who's in Bush's back pocket know's what it's about.
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Of course it wasn't...I have been in long running debate about this topic
and it always circled back to the generic phrasing of ID. That it could be any Superior Intelligence, not necessarily the God of the Bible.

That is why they use it...a shield, cover. Just a means to get their religious rhetoric into the public schools systems.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
65. Another way to tell
is who is backing this. Do you see any pagans or Muslims coming out in favor of this? Nope. Purely the fundies.
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BadgerKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
38. and those who stay silent?
Insightful post.

What happens to those who neither confess nor deny the Lord before men?
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. If God listens to and/or cares about such things
then I doubt it matters. God "knows" what's in your "heart".

I should perhaps add to this thread that I actually do belive in something distantly related to ID--it's just my own personal philosophy and does nothing to prevent me from accepting evolution. Far from it.

What really gets me about the ID'ers is when they say "intelligent design", they're probably picturing God as an old man in a white caftan waving his fingers at Planet Earth and magically making species appear. I figure this is how most people visualize "God", and along with the picture is an assumption that God is somehow kind of like us, only, well, more godlike.

The reality of it, I feel, is that the very concepts of "intelligent" and "design" cannot be applied to what God is. I don't even think God possesses intelligence in any form a human being can possibly recognize, so far removed are we from what God is. And I don't think God designed anything; I think that all that is in our universe is a very distant reflection of what God simply is--an echo, if you will. Distant, but still connected to God. For anyone who has studied the Kaballah, I wonder if you see where I'm going with this...
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #50
66. I agree
Edited on Sat Nov-12-05 11:28 PM by FreedomAngel82
I agree that God probably cares more about helping the poor than whether or not ID is in schools or not. What did Jesus talk about the most? That will give you a clue since he is the son of God. I'm a Christian and I believe in evolution. When I study evolution and anything with science I believe I'm studying God since I believe in God and that He created everything. There are still many Christian's out there who for some reason can't accept evoultion as more fact-based than anything. They're still in pure denial for whatever reason. It's just strange to me since I've always loved science and anything to do with science since I was in high school. And as I've mentioned in another post of mine in this thread I've heard the argument (and I agree) that when God created us in His likeness it's more about our souls than our bodies because in the story of Adam and Eve there isn't too much emphasis on their creation. Just it happened. We're also told that flesh and blood can't enter the afterlife (or Heaven) so we can't be like God's body because God doesn't have a body. We do have bodies but not like here. I've had an OBE before so it's really hard to explain what it felt like. I could still feel and touch but not like here. I also think since God is above time and space He (and other spirits) can be anywhere and everywhere because time is of no concern to them like here on this plane. One time Moses was speaking to God at the bush and Moses asked who to tell was sending him and all God said was "I am."
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jayctravis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. Doesn't the "Big Bang" theory cover everything?
Big Bang says that "something happened" that we can't really explained that brought matter into existence. Something out of nothing for whatever reason.

Could be some guy at a desk throwing enzymes into a petri dish, could be a guy in the clouds going "shazam", could be an actual explosion from a singularity, could be a spaghetti monster.

"Big Bang" is Science's great "don't know how...but suddenly all this stuff happened" and it was developed with scientific observation that suggests the universe is expanding. If it's expanding, it must be expanding from somewhere and very possibly all could have been one lump at the beginning.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
63. And than there's another verse
where Jesus says: "Not everyone who says 'Lord Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven" and throughout the gospel Scriptures Jesus has told how you should be more innocent like with children. They are the perfect example.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. You know. I have yet to hear ONE scientific argument to made for ID.
Not one!

You'd think for a "competing theory" to evolution, these Jesus-Freaks could be able to come up with at least 1 example of science to back it up.

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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. ID is the all time greatest abuse of the word Theory
Edited on Sat Nov-12-05 12:41 PM by Sandpiper
Noted ID quack Michael Behe admitted under oath that if ID is a theory, so is Astrology:


http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8178
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. ID is a hypotheses....not a scientific theory
evolution is a scientific theory...they are not in any where near the same category.
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Rob H. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Like I posted a couple of days ago...
As my friend Mike the spiritual thrill-seeker put it, anytime you have to invoke some sort of supernatural force or entity to explain something, you're no longer in the realm of science.

He's a succinct one, that Mike. :)
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
36. Specifically the "Christian" God.
IDers readily acknowledge that ID requires an intelligent designer, i.e., a god. Then they claim that there is nothing in ID that is specific to any particular theology, so ID therefore passes first amendment muster. (The fact that this in no way makes ID constitutional is irrelevant to creationists.) Now, thanks to Pat Robertson, there can be no doubt of ID's entanglement with Christian theology. There is absolutely no need for any scientific arguments because ID is not science.
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swimboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
39. This same nutcase edumacated VA's new attorney-general-elect.
Lucky for us! x( :mad: :grr: :nuke:
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
40. Another instance of creeping truthfulness
Didn't Scottie McClellan recently slip and tell the truth? Believe the reporter was from MSRBC and was feature on "countdown".
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
44. I thought god and Jesus was all about forgiveness.
I guess its only under certain conditions. Thank god Pat Robertson is around to tell us all what god is going to do next!
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
51. Pat Roberstson's brain,
works like most of the leaders of the republican party's do, only he is more upfront about it. That point must be hammered in over and over again. If you want to know how Bush/Cheney/Rove really think, watch the 700 club.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
52. He blew the lid off of their little charade.
Please, please, please let him keep talking. Every time he opens his mouth he says something stupid.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
53. Catholic schools don't teach that evangelical creationism
The interesting thing with teaching creationism instead of science, is not only that creationism ("intelligent design" as they now prefer to call it to deceive) is a religious belief. The interesting thing is that Creationism ("intelligent design") is the belief of only a SMALL GROUP of Christians who want to interpret the Bible part-literally and part according to their preachers' own bizarre fairy tale notions. It doesn't even represent Christian belief in general.

If Hare Krishnas hired lobbyists to promote the teaching of Hare Krishna's beliefs of how the world was made, in place of science, the evangelicals would be having a cow (by cesarean!). What gives evangelicals the idea that they're so special, that our taxpayer money should be used to teach their religion in public schools?

I'm confused as to what they feel gives them the right to impose their beliefs on others in this way. Maybe there's something I'm missing in all this.

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Beartracks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #53
72. Literal vs. Allegorical
True. Catholics tend to believe that God gave us a brain in order that we might use it. So, science is a noble and honorable pursuit. There is no implicit or implied competition between science and religion.

I still maintain that being Christian is more about understanding, believing and living the teachings of Christ (i.e. New Testament) and not about believing that every twice-translated word of the Old Testament is literally accurate. The O.T. may in fact contain large amounts of actual historical info, but I believe that the "truth" of the O.T. is in its meanings and teachings, not in its accuracy and details. Notably, the Creation story is, I believe, meant to be allegorical.
(Allegorical, as per Merriam-Webster: "Having hidden spiritual meaning that transcends the literal sense of a sacred text."
See also Allegory: "The expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence.")
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mermaid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
56. Hung On Their Own Petard!!
Damn, it hadn't occurred to me the gravity of what Robertson said, until you just pointed it out!

Damn, they have just as much as ADMITTED that ID is nothing short of Christian Creationism dressed up to look like something else...an underhanded attempt to inject their religion into our science classrooms!

Please spread this one far and wide, DU'ers!!

Letters to the Editor and the works!!

Damn this is great stuff!
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
57. ID apologists would say Robertson was speaking for himself only
So while ID to Robertson indicates the god of Genesis, and rejecting ID is tantamount to rejecting that god to Robertson, that the "theory" of ID itself makes no more reference to that god than does Darwin's theory of evolution.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
58. It's always been about religion
Robertson just let the cat out of the bag.
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tamtam Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
59. The people of Dover PA
Have faith, something Pat Robertson and the rest of his ilk don't have. Pat Robertson just proved to America that there are two sets of Christians in this country. The fundamentalist wackos, who have such little faith in god that they must continuously remind themselves and everyone else how wonderful god is. They do so by pushing their agenda on the rest of us. We have the other set of Christians ,who don't need to push their agenda on everyone else, because they have true faith. They worship out of faith and love not fear and consequences.

When the Pat Robertson crowd stops using religion like a drug then the rest of us can breath a little easier. Maybe Pat Robertson and the rest of the fundie wack jobs should stop fearing their god so damn much. I don't know how you can possibly have room for love and compassion when all you do is fear, judge and condemn others.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-05 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
67. Ironic
when I clicked on this thread the count was 66 6. Spooky. Pat blew their cover, didn't he?
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
68. I got yer SMITE swingin, Pat Robber'son
You antichrist shyte
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
69. That's what I was thinking when I heard him
It is and always has been about interjecting his god into the classroom.
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corbett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
71. Try This On For Size
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