Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Wellstone/Franken

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:31 AM
Original message
Wellstone/Franken
While watching the SNL '80's show tonite Franken came on and I told my wife he was going to run for Wellstones Senate seat. I happened to mention that Cheney had threatened Wellstone. She hadn't heard that so I found it for her. Here it is for those who haven't heard it:
"I'm for the little fellers, not the Rockefellers." - Sen. Paul Wellstone

Shortly before he died in a mysterious airplane crash 11 days prior to the 2002 elections, Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone met with Vice President Dick Cheney, probably the Bush administration's most evil public face.

Cheney was rounding up Senate support for the October 2002 vote on giving the administration carte blanche to invade Iraq, with or without blessing from the United Nations. Cheney strong-armed opposing politicians like the most vindictive of mafioso leaders, and opponents usually gave in.

But not Wellstone. Whatever you thought of his progressive brand of politics, he wasn't a wimp. And that's what made him more than dangerous in the eyes of people like Cheney.
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=2&contentid=1037&page=1

At a meeting full of war veterans in Willmar, Minn., days before his death, Wellstone told attendees that Cheney told him, "If you vote against the war in Iraq, the Bush administration will do whatever is necessary to get you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't know much about Wellstone except what I've read
And it does seem very fishy. I hope someday we can all know the truth about that but it's doubtful. *sigh* Unless Cheney keeps a diary of everything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Fishy? Hell I don't see why people even consider
this tin foil hat stuff. The guy dies in a mysterious plane crash right after the administration finds out they can't stop him from voting against the war? Gimme a break :eyes: How cliched' can you get! We'll never see evidence but this one is pretty obvious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Fishy! LOL! Poppy bush said when newly elected Sen Wellstone introduced
himself, said to his face, "who's this asshole?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
28. even if there was video tape
36% would just character assasinate Fuji Tape manufacturing...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. LMAO, best thing I've heard all day
Although hopefully that number will drop below 30% in the near future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
44. Not only him, but his wife and children.
No one left in the family to run in his stead and carry the torch for him. No legacy left.

I have no problem believing that foul play could have been involved.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. I never heard that on TV news
hmmmm, so it never happened,right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I also heard
that Cheney told him on another occasion that "he'd better watch it". Can't find that one yet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yes, Unfortunately, Wellstone was to dangerous to their agenda
great article.....
quote........
It is relatively easy to control what a journalist writes or at least what gets published in the corporate-owned media. However, it is quite another thing to demand the silence of a man like the late Paul Wellstone. In fact, strong-arm strategies did not work on him. They only motivated him further to speak his truth, a truth that to the dismay of the Republican party, increased his popularity, even after taking a stand against the Bush war policy early on. So there was only one option to assure a Republican controlled senate, multi-billion dollar war profits for certain corporations, Iraq oil and implementation of the Wolfowitz Doctrine. Wellstone had to be “taken out,” a Mafiosi phrase that seems fitting to use here.
end quote........

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/17/2004/812

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
23. yikes
thanks for that

(i think)
:yoiks:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. I loved that man and everything he stood for......
unfortunately the thugs didn't agree. I will never forget that day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MnFats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. not too sure about a site named 'conspiracy planet' but remember...
....Wellstone had been in the Senate only a very short time --- days? weeks? when G.H.W. Bush, the first one, came to the Senate floor, for the State of the Union address I think, and Wellstone gave him a letter describing his reasons for opposing the Gulf War.
Bush's reaction: "Who is this chickenshit?"
this is well-documented.....but Paul considered it a badge of honor, to be called 'chickenshit' by Poppy Bush...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. "Conspiracy" or not
I'm not a big believer in coinsidences, especially not with this crowd.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. I'm really no conspiracy person, so is there any other info
on that crash other than the link you gave? Conspiracy Planet isn't very reasuring. I heard the problem was icing of the wings, and that can happen very easily in the Dakotas.

I wouldn't put it beyond Cheney to do something like that, but I'm just not buying the story without FAA investigation statements.

I loved Paul and I couldn't believe it when I heard his plane went down, but stuff like that happens to small planes in the winter weather.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. There was something about
the "National Weather Service" lightning tracking system that was closed to public access shortly after the Wellstone crash also that was fishey.
I don't have any links but it's out there. If you've ever heard what these guys, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rove and their ilk say at these conservative clubs and fundraisers it'd shake you up. The first time I ever heard Wolfowitz he was giving a speech to a conservative group and talking about Clinton. I was AMAZED at the vile shit he was saying, it's not politics to them, it's life and death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Other planes had no problems.
But another pilot who landed a slightly larger twin-engine plane at the airport on Friday, a couple of hours before Wellstone's plane crashed, said in an interview that he experienced no significant weather problems.

Veteran pilot Ray Juntunen said there was very light ice, but "nothing to be alarmed about. It shouldn't have been a problem.'' An overnight UPS pilot for Bemidji Aviation, Juntunen flies between Minneapolis and Eveleth five days a week. He described Friday's trip as uneventful. He said he ran into moderate icing conditions at 10,000 feet and requested permission to drop to 5,000. At that altitude, he had only light icing. When he dropped to 3,400 feet to begin his approach, "the ice slid off the windshield,'' he said. According to the NTSB, Wellstone's pilots received warnings of icing at 9,000 to 11,000 feet and were allowed to descend to 4,000 feet.
Juntunen said he was able to see the airport from five miles out, and another pilot landed a half-hour later and told him the clouds were a little lower, but still not bad.

If the pilot did have trouble seeing the airport, he should have simply gone straight, pulled up to 2,500 feet and banked right to try again, Juntunen said. For some reason, the plane was turning left, and he is as baffled as the investigators.

"I can't imagine what was happening,'' Juntunen said. {"ICING; Pilots were in good physical condition," Oct. 29, 2002, Pioneer Press http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/local/4391540.htm }

(This was a good link when I nabbed it then -- it may not be good at this point.}
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. a few other facts.
Pilots flying in Minnesota are not surprised by ice or snow, ok? That is normal weather.

-->As it happens, the small northern Minnesota airport where Wellstone's plane crashed had a record of ZERO fatal crashes in the previous twenty years.

"The FAA's Accident/Incident Database shows five aircraft accidents occurring at the Eveleth airport since 1981. None of them involved more than minor damage. Please note that these accidents predate the Wellstone crash. They are presented as they appear in the FAA database." http://www.aviationpolicy.org/wellstone/FAA_aids_KEVM.htm

--> The plane was known as "one of the most safe and capable turboprops around," easy to fly, with full de-icing capabilities.

"The Beech King Air that Sen. Paul Wellstone boarded in St. Paul Friday morning had a solid track record as one of the most popular workhorses in the sky.

...Bill King, vice president of Cirrus Design Corp., a Duluth-based manufacturer of smaller single-engine airplanes, said King Air enjoys a reputation as one of the most safe and capable turboprops around." Oct. 25, 2002,
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthtribune/4371871.htm, "Team to search for crash causes"

In the decade preceding the Wellstone crash, there were only three other fatal crashes of the Beech 100. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp None of the reports mentions a high degree of destruction due to fire, as in this crash.

--> There were two pilots, and two engines. One pilot could fly and land the plane if necessary, and one engine is sufficient. In addition, the plane had radioed not a single sign of trouble, and was minutes from landing. If BOTH engines failed, it would seem unlikely that the plane would behave as it did, turning, then diving. Experienced pilots have stated this was not bad piloting -- it was as if no one was flying the plane.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. So you're tellig me that the ntsb is corrupt too?
I don't meant to sound like I don't beliebe anything, but everything you've shown is based upon past history of the airplane. Unfortunately, pilots screw up sometimes. Yes, it's possible that there was tampering with the plane, but I can't believe it without some kind of proof. I have confidence in the NTSB, and I don't think they'd risk their reputations to lie on their findings on this accident.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. Well, as to the NTSB.
Their chief, Carol Carmody, also just happened to be the chief for the Mel Carnahan crash. And, just happened to have done a stint at the CIA prior to being at NTSB.

Additionally, bear in mind that the crash scene was not only in remote northern Minnesota, in winter, but wasn't real easy to get to even from the town.

The few reporters who got sent up there were brought over to a press conference with the NTSB. The person running the press conference HAD NOT EVEN BEEN TO THE CRASH SITE and was supposed to answer questions. Access to the site was difficult and restricted, and their mouthpiece hadn't even been to the site.

The NTSB set up groups to investigate weather. To investigate the pilots. The plane this, the plane that. They immediately dismissed foul play or terrorism. Why?

Recall that this was a time when a sniper had completely cowed the DC metro area, when school children weren't going out to play, and the whole nation was fixated on the slightest clue -- even tarot cards that perhaps were left by the sniper(s). Remember? People were going crazy over this thing, as it went on day after day.

But, a Senator and his wife go down in a plane, and "well, mumble mumble bad weather mumble check back with us in nine months and maybe we'll get you a report."

I believe that Paul Wellstone couldn't be bought, blackmailed, or intimidated, unlike so many others.

His memory cannot be killed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. Stuff like that happens only to Democrats
and enemies of the neo-fascists.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
9. It has gotten to the point
where I can believe anything about these people. I ask myself, "Have they no decency?" And the answer appears to be clear ... they do NOT.

I'm not saying I'm a believer in the Wellstone conspiracy theory. There are some weird things about the presumed accident that cause eyebrows to lift slightly.

Perhaps the more pertinent question is: Are the Bushitas morally above the assassination of their political opponents? At this point, even the most skeptical Americans must be painting a question mark over the face of George W. Bush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I watched Mehlman on MTP
tonite. These guys don't even try to hide their lies anymore, the speak them as if no one is the wiser. Russert nailed him on several points and he just ran along with same line as if Russert wasn't even there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. Sticking with the advice of Hitler and Lenin
they repeat the lie, in hopes it will attain the stature of truth.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
43. IT WASN'T A "CONSPIRACY". It was MURDER.
It didn't take the entire republican party to do this. All it took was JUST ONE of the mafia bosses in the republican party to pay the right person (or two).

It's just the same way they do everything else.

:kick::kick::kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
11. A Hunted Man.
NOTE THE DATE:

Posted May 9, 2002
in The Nation

Paul Wellstone, Fighter
by John Nichols


Paul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them."

That has made it political and personal for Wellstone. The man who decided to abandon a self-imposed two-term limit on his Senate service at least in part because of his determination to block Bush's conservative agenda wears the target with pride. At a moment when most Democrats are still trying to figure out how to challenge a popular President, the former college wrestler is leaping into the ring. Wellstone is not running for cover; he is running to deliver a message about politics in a state and a nation that he believes to be far more progressive than the readers of political tea leaves in Washington could begin to imagine. "This race is going to be a case study of whether you can maintain liberal, progressive positions and win in this country in 2002," says Wellstone

...

"Midwestern voters don't feel the connection with the Democrats that they once did," crows Rove. To that end, Wellstone, South Dakota's Tim Johnson and Iowa's Tom Harkin, all up for re-election, are getting what GOP insiders call "the Rove treatment": recruitment of high-profile Republican challengers, major-league fundraising assistance and regular presidential visits. All other things being equal, picking off either Johnson or Harkin would be enough to split the Senate 50-50 and again allow Vice President Cheney to break partisan ties.

But beating Wellstone would be the sweetest win. "They have made it very clear that if they could beat one Democrat this year, it would be Paul Wellstone," says Minnesota political consultant Richman. "Paul gets under their skin." "When I first met the President, he called me 'Pablo,'" Wellstone jokes. "That lasted a day or two. Then they started trying to figure out how they were going to get rid of me."


more at
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020527&c=1&s=nichols
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Then, there was Coleman's unfortunate choice of words. After the crash.
(These were good links when I nabbed them at the time, but they may not work now.)

Plane Crash:
"There was evidence of an intense post-crash fire," {acting chairwoman of the NTSB Carol} Carmody said. ``The fuselage
was destroyed. The cockpit was gone. The left wing was badly burned. The right wing was severely damaged, and the tail was two-thirds intact."

Star Tribune http://www.startribune.com/stories/1752/3391129.html

"It looks like a tremendous fire pit," said Kevin Smith, a spokesman for the Minnesota Department of Public Safety.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WELLSTONE CRASH INVESTIGATION:
Fire's role in deaths studied

BY CHARLES LASZEWSKI
Pioneer Press
http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/news/local/4576122.htm
Posted on Fri, Nov. 22, 2002

The St. Louis County medical examiner clarified Thursday that while crash injuries killed all aboard the plane carrying U.S. Sen. Paul Wellstone and seven others last month, he still is trying to determine whether fire affected the passengers before they died.
Dr. Thomas Uncini said there are still some microscopic tests to be done on tissue and other samples from Wellstone and his fellow passengers.

In addition, Uncini has asked for the passengers' tissue samples to be returned from the Federal Aviation Administration laboratory in Oklahoma City. He said the samples will be turned over to another lab better equipped to test for the presence of carbon monoxide.

Uncini said there is no question that fire was not a factor in the deaths of the pilot, Capt. Richard Conry and co-pilot Michael Guess. Blood samples showed no carbon monoxide in their blood, indicating they were dead before the fire broke out in the plane. However, the passengers were farther back in the plane and closer to where the fire probably originated.

Uncini said he hopes to determine, if possible, if the passengers experienced the same sequence of events. Because the bodies of the passengers were more severely burned than the pilots, blood tests were not possible, he said. ...Uncini already had concluded that neither pilot suffered a medical problem such as stroke or heart attack. Nor was there any evidence of gunshot wounds to any of the victims. ...

Charles Laszewski can be reached at claszewski@pioneer press.com or (651) 228-5458.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Report: Plane's Impact, Not Fire, Killed Wellstone
No Carbon Monoxide Found In Blood, Suggesting No Smoke Inhalation

UPDATED: 12:30 p.m. EST November 21, 2002
Channel 2 IBS Network
http://www.newschannel2000.com/news/1799343/detail.html
AP

ST. PAUL, Minn. -- A Minnesota medical examiner says Sen. Paul Wellstone and the others who were with him on a small plane died from the impact when the plane crashed -- not from the fire that engulfed it afterward, according to a newspaper report.

The finding took several weeks because the bodies were severely burned, the St. Paul Pioneer Press reported Thursday.

The coroner found no carbon monoxide in the pilots' blood, meaning they died before they could inhale any smoke. The coroner said he even checked the victims for gunshot wounds but found none.

The cause of the crash still isn't clear. The plane went down into a wooded bog while approaching an airport in northeastern Minnesota last month. The crash killed everyone aboard -- the pilots, Wellstone, his wife and daughter, and three campaign workers.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Norm Coleman:
"If I win on Tuesday, the president is going to owe me big time," {Bush's hand-picked Minnesota Republican Senate Candidate Norm} Coleman said. "We walked through fire to get here."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/04/politics/main527987.shtml
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. I've never seen that quote
from Coleman, Jesus Christ!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
12. No date. No names of witnesses.
Just a declaration by the person who wrote the article that Wellstone said that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. There must have been something
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 01:30 AM by raysr
to it as the family asked that Cheney not attend the funeral!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Here's another link
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. One article may be based on the other.
Neither cites its source.

Both articles: no dates, no names, not even a claim of an anonymous witness who talked the writer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. I can give you links
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 01:56 AM by raysr
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. And none of the links say when the meeting in Willmar, MN
took place, or who witnessed Wellstone saying that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
16. I hope Al stays out of small planes
The Bush/Cheney/NeoCon/Nutbag Mafia definitely had him killed. There's no question in my mind. The royals have been killing each other for centuries, and Poppy Bush is well-known for having ice water in his veins.

I wouldn't be surprised if JFK Jr was one of their takedowns, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. I was going to say
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 01:39 AM by raysr
that but I don't have anything to back it up. But imagine, these people don't think in short term solutions. JFK Jr would've rose to the top of politics so fast it would've scared the shit out of the pukes just to think of him entering the polical arena.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Not surprisingly, the Bush Body Count folk have JFKJr as Bush hit also
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. you're not alone in thinking that
that, and the commercial jet out of new york that went down in the water.
i watched a witness, average citizen, say there was a fire trail going up to the jet. it was like listening to that rational friend we all have, tell you it really did happen.

i think the official line was that fuel caught on fire and flame trailed up the stream.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
33. Wellstone died 11 days before the election, on a day he was scheduled
for an evening debate with Norm Coleman in Duluth, MN.


Minnesota Crash Kills Wellstone, Clouding Fight over Senate
Published on Friday, October 25, 2002 by the New York Times
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1025-10.htm

...

Mr. Wellstone and the others were flying from St. Paul to Eveleth to attend the funeral of Martin Rukavina, a longtime steelworker whose son, Tom, is in the Minnesota House of Representatives. He had decided to skip a rally and fundraiser with Mr. Mondale and Senator Edward M. Kennedy here in the Twin Cities this morning so he could be there. He was scheduled to meet Mr. Coleman tonight for a debate in Duluth.


...


While Mr. Wellstone's death was mourned across the political spectrum, it produced an immediate partisan reaction, here and in Washington, because his race is seen as so critical to the balance of power in the Senate, where the Democrats hold a 50-to-49 edge.

...

Unlike the situation in Missouri two years ago, where Governor Carnahan's name remained on the ballot, Minnesota law demands that Mr. Wellstone's name be removed, according to State Attorney General Mike Hatch. It gives the Democratic-Farmer-Labor party until Thursday to nominate a replacement. The death gives Mr. Coleman an advantage, since absentee ballots already cast count.




A little more info about Martin 'Bennie' Rukavina and Sen Wellstone's strong support in the Iron Range:

"Wellstone was on his way to Virginia, Minn., Friday to the funeral for Rukavina's father, Bennie, a man who organized steelworkers in the 1930s, when his plane crashed."
(http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1030-07.htm)

Sen. Wellstone and Tom and Martin Rukavina
http://www.croatianworld.net/CROWNframes.htm?http://www.croatianworld.net/Letters/1595.htm

That he'd take time out of a tight and tense Senate campaign to attend Bennie Rukavina's funeral was typical Wellstone.

"This probably wouldn't have happened to a less compassionate man," Fallos said. "In the middle of a campaign, he took the time to attend the funeral of the father of one of his friends."





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
35. There is a book out there "American Assassination" about
the circumstances surrounding Wellstone's untimely death.


http://readerweekly.org/issue/290/Jim_Fetzer.html

Today we announce the publication of AMERICAN ASSASSINATION: THE STRANGE DEATH OF PAUL WELLSTONE, which I have co-authored with Don "Four Arrows" Jacobs and which is being published by Sander Hicks of Vox Pop of New York City.

In the course of its 200 pages, this book establishes (a) that the Bush administration had powerful motives for taking him out (Chapter 2), (b) that the NTSB report cannot be sustained (Chapter 7), and © that the Senator's death was no accident (Chapter 8).

As a student of the assassination of JFK, I was probably more attuned (not to say, "sensitive") to the possibility of deceit, deception, and distortion by the FBI and by the NTSB than were other local residents in processing information about the crash.

Killing someone, even a president or a senator, is not the hard part. The hard part is covering it up. The hard part is convincing others the death was the work of "a lone, deranged gunman", for example, or that a crash must have been "an accident."

A cover story is indispensable. If you only confront them one-by-one, they tend to be persuasive. If you aren't looking for small signs that something might be wrong, you are likely to miss the larger ramifications of the situation you are in.

Patterns are most important. Once you become aware of the variable techniques that can be used to mislead the American people-the destruction of evidence, the fabrication of evidence, the biased use of evidence-they become easier to identify.

In the case of JFK, it was indispensable to take control of the body. The Secret Service illegally removed the body from Parkland Hospital in Dallas and it was flown to Bethesda Naval Hospital, where it was completely under military control.

Most Americans remain unaware to this day that the Presidential limousine was returned to Michigan where it was stripped to bare metal and completely rebuilt. That vehicle was a crime scene on wheels. That was the destruction of evidence.

In the case of this crash, the bodies and the plane were a package deal. The FBI arrived with preternatural speed. Gary Ulman, the airport's assistant manager, only identified the site at 11 AM. FBI from St. Paul were on the scene by noon. By my calculations, that means they had to depart as the plane was taking off.

When I learned that day that the plane was still burning, I wondered how they could actually know that the man was dead, since they had not recovered any bodies. Burned beyond recognition, they had to be identified by dental records.

The FBI kept tight control of the crash scene. Even the AP reporter said that he had only been allowed fifteen minutes to do his thing. You might think the more photographs, the better the record of the crash scene. That didn't happen here.

In the case of JFK, the FBI spent weeks gathering photographic evidence. A film taken facing the grassy knoll was turned over and simply disappeared. Even a chunk of skull found in the grass the following day and given to the FBI was lost.

Different circumstances require different treatment. No one would have believed that JFK was not killed by a conspiracy if it had not been done in public. In that case, it was crucial to manufacture evidence that would support the official account.

Distracting attention from the most important alternatives can be especially beneficial. The Warren Commission focused its attention on Lee Harvey Oswald, not on who killed JFK. The NTSB did not consider the possibility that this was no accident.

It simply took the FBI's word for it. Carol Carmody, a former employee for the CIA who headed the team that studied the Wellstone crash, reported that the FBI had determined that there were no signs of "terrorist involvement" in the crash.

That was odd, since it is the responsibility of the NTSB, not the FBI, to investigate the cause of the crash, which it would not determine for more than another year. How could the FBI rule out any parties without knowing what caused the crash?

Even shadowy "terrorists" would have to use specific means, such as small bombs, gas canisters, or high-tech weapons. An assassination does not require "terrorists." And there was actually a connection between the copilot and Zakarias Moussaoui!

None of this appears to have bothered Carmody, who had also headed up the team that investigated the Carnahan crash two years earlier. Intriguingly, the Wellstone case has been suggested as refining the technique used on Carnahan.

Carnahan's plane went down three weeks before the election; his wife survived him. The people of Missouri preferred to vote for a dead man than return John Ashcroft to the Senate. Sheila was killed with Paul and could not stand in for him.

Most Americans do not know that a crash scene can only be investigated as the scene of a crime if it is declared a "crime scene" by the Attorney General. And, equally surprising, NTSB reports are not admissible as evidence in courts of law.

The NTSB only considered the accident alternatives, namely: the plane, the pilots, and the weather. They would eventually clear the plane and the weather. That left the pilots holding the bag. Yet the principal pilot was exceptionally qualified.

One of its members conceded they had no idea what caused the crash. An EMP device could not only have destroyed the plane's electronics and disabled its electrical systems but also "cooked" its pilots, as if they were inside a microwave oven.

The NTSB report concludes that the passengers and crew were killed by the impact and a "post-impact" fire. But how did the NTSB know there had been no "pre-impact" fire? The fire burned for hours, making evidence of an earlier fire difficult to find.

There was no call of distress. If the plane was hit by an electromagnetic device, the effects could have destroyed its navigational aids, capacity for communication, stall warning alarm, and other crucial systems. It would have stopped digital clocks.

An electrical fire would almost certainly have occurred. Which makes the bluish-white smoke from the crash especially significant. If the fire had been caused by kerosene-based fuel, then it would have burned black. But it burned bluish-white.

Which means that the fire was not caused by kerosene-based fuel. And the NTSB conducted simulations using similar pilots and flight plan with a weaker engine. Even when flown at abnormally slow speeds, the pilots were still able to power up.

The NTSB couldn't cause the plane to crash. The carbine that Oswald was said to have used is not a high-velocity weapon. Yet JFK is supposed to have been killed by the impact of high-velocity bullets. In that case, Oswald cannot have killed him.

But logic and evidence are not the strong suit for the American media. It is easier to dismiss analyses at variance with the government's position as "kooky theories" by "conspiracy whackos" than to come to grips with the evidence. That's hard work.

And pseudo-authorities are available to reassure the public that nothing is amiss. 60,000 documents and records have been released since Gerald Posner published CASE CLOSE. His work has been refuted, but Keith Olbermann still fawns over him.

Conspiracies are as American as apple pie. They only require two or more persons planning a crime and, to be prosecutable, taking some step to commit it. When two guys knock off a 7/11, they are engaging in a conspiracy. It happens all the time.

Most American conspiracies are economic, like ENRON and WorldCom. Insider trading is a simple example. The question is not whether conspiracies occur. The question is whether conspiracy occurred in a specific case, such as the death of JFK or Wellstone.

The most telling evidence of conspiracy is a cover up. The JFK autopsy X-rays were altered to conceal a massive blow-out to the back of the head. Another brain was substituted during a supplemental brain exam. The Zapruder film was recreated.

The NTSB concluded that the pilots had allowed the plane to stall. But the A-100 is equipped with a stall-warning alarm that makes a very loud sound when the plane is at risk of stalling, which would only be ignored if the pilots were incapacitated.

Remember the NTSB's own simulations with a weaker engine at slower speeds were unable to bring it down. Its conclusions might still have been implausible if they had only been able to replicate the crash under such extreme conditions. That they could not replicate it at all is damning.

And it is difficult to imagine why, if something unexpected happened, the copilot would not have sent a distress call, if he could, especially when they were over a wooded and swampy area, where a rapid response could make the difference between life and death.

The pilots were not responsible for John Ongaro's anomalous cell-phone call with its roaring, humming, and oscillating sound, which an expert on electromagnetism, John Costella, has advised me could very plausibly have been caused by an EMP weapon.

The pilots could not have arranged for the FBI to reach the scene so rapidly, for the announcement of "no terrorist activity", for excluding non-accident alternatives, or for the NTSB to draw conclusions that were even contradicted by its own evidence.

The pilots were not responsible for the insider's report to Michael Ruppert that this had been a hit, that this "current crop of reinvigorated old white men" were "nobody to screw around with", and that there will be "more strategic accidents".

Surely it makes more sense to suppose that two highly qualified pilots would have responded to the stall warning alarm if they had neglected their airspeed and their altitude unless they were incapacitated and there was nothing they could do about it.

The American public depends upon the press to keep them informed. If they are not being told the most important developments in the most important case in the history of the republic about JFK, we can hardly expect them to be informed about Wellstone.

Four Arrows and I are trying to figure out what happened using scientific standards of reasoning. We do not want to be taken in by our government again. So I ask a simple question. If you haven't studied the evidence, how can you possibly know we're wrong?

Just to give you an inkling of what we have uncovered, consider a phone conversation between Four Arrows (FA) and Frank Hilldrup (FH), the lead investigator for the NTSB, on Thursday, 19 February 2004. Their rather remarkable exchange took place as follows:

FA: Why was the FBI not listed as party to the investigation in the final NTSB report on the Wellstone case?
FH: They were not a party to the investigation.
FA: Then what were they doing on the scene for about 8 hours prior to the arrival of the NTSB team?
FH: I can't say for sure, since I only took over on Monday; but maybe they were there responding to the-you know-the conspiracy theories. FA: How could there have been any conspiracy theories operating before the plane crashed?
FH: Well, uh, of course, that's true. Well, the FBI might have been
there to identify the bodies as they sometimes do in airplane accidents. I'm not really sure but there is someone with the FBI I can call who was there. I'll get back to you about this.
FA: I'd really appreciate it. Don't you think it strange?
FH: Well, I just know everything is above board but I do want to find out.
FA: One more question. Why no public hearing for this incident?
FH: We only have hearings for high profile cases.
There are severe limits upon investigations by citizens of this kind. We do not have the powers of the FBI and other agencies at our disposal. We know we are capable of making mistakes. But we believe that something very wrong has happened in this case and that the nation deserves to know what we've found at this stage of inquiry.



Jim Fetzer, a professor of philosophy at UMD, presented this statement at a press conference held at The National Press Club, Washington, D.C., on 25 October 2004.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. There are alot of skeptics here
regarding this. But these same skeptics seem to believe the MIHOP and LIHOP about 9-11. If your government can do that, they can surely knock down a couple of small planes and get away with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. It aint rocket science, or actually...
kinda... maybe... uh
:yoiks:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
38. Interesting. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-05 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
42. I wonder if they were worried about him running for President in '04
Edited on Wed Nov-16-05 01:20 AM by Hippo_Tron
There's about half a dozen or so Democrats on the hill that fight this administration just as hard as Wellstone did. Kucinich, Boxer, and Conyers to name three.

That being said, I don't think that any of these three have nearly the passionate support that Wellstone had. If any of these three died tommorow, I know that many people would cry. But I don't know if millions of liberals accross the country would be mourning their death like they did with Wellstone.

I know that Wellstone's MS would have made it difficult for him to seek national office at any point, but I have to wonder if they really considered him a possible threat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun May 05th 2024, 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC