Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

the History Channel's 'Crescent & the Cross' on the Crusades was revealing

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 06:53 AM
Original message
the History Channel's 'Crescent & the Cross' on the Crusades was revealing
i enjoyed it a lot, two hour documentary about the bloody crusades. and so many times it seemed to parallel bush's war in the middle east. the long horrible history of the three crusades still reverberates in the region and the wounds still exist and in a way, the crusades never really ended.

and bush seems damned determined to bring it all back. the jingoism, the religious angle, playing both sides against each other in a never ending nightmare twilight zone of war and slaughter. and all over what exactly? who owns the so called holy land and it's holy sites, what diety lived or died there thousands of years ago, who cares? what about the millions who've died over these ancient jewish, muslim, and christian conflicts?

they all worship and die for the same, mystical god, who for all their efforts and sacrifice to him seems to be in no hurry to stop it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, bush*s first response to 9/11 was to launch a "crusade"
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 07:08 AM by TheBorealAvenger
Then his word-types said, "no, don't use that word!"

So when * launched his war on Iraq, he named it:
Operation
Iraq
Liberation

edit:punctuation
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. It was an excellent documentary! I watched...
every minute and was pleasantly surprised by the treatment it gave saladin. Not the usual History Channel stuff (at least not the stuff they have been showing as of late). Very informative.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. some people made a LOT of money
during the crusades.

like the iraq war of today, crusades were expensive enterprizes.

as usual in the case of subjective wars -- follow the money.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yip, We're Re-Living a Thousand and a Half Yrs
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. Funny, my public school education seems to have glossed
over a lot of details about the Crusades. My wife has been reading a lot of history lately about the Crusades and I am like, 'Saladin'?, Pope who?. It is an absolutely fascinating time in history and as usual, if recounted with an honest effort toward examining the details, the
story is really not very complimentary to western 'civilization.'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Haha, Glossed over the Cannibalism and Greek Fire, Eh?
Actually, this program also skipped right away after saying that the Crusaders boiled and ate their foes at one point. Did GODFREY? Did BALDWIN (sounds like HE was mean enough to). Then right after this incident, we skip away to arriving in Jerusalem. Are the Crusaders who entered Jerusalem cannibals? All of them? Some of them?

As for the Greek Fire, somebody mentioned in the other thread that it was like napalm in its effects, (one of?) the first WMD.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. The rationale for the Crusades as stated by Pope Urban
are more honest that Bushes WMD argument but certainly just as despicable.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. I also liked it. Sure beat reading about it.
It seemed to take for ever to get out of that part of the history books,and I never could figure out why they did it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
William Bloode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
8. I enjoyed it.
Having been one of my favorite periods in history to study, i really enjoyed it. I thought it was very fair and unbiased to either side.

I did think it was a touch thin on some facts, omitted some others. But what are ya gonna do with such limited time?

Overall very enjoyable.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. In 1938,
a then-famous writer named Hillaire Belloc predicted that there would be a renewal of the dormant conflict between Christianity and Islam. He felt it would begin to build up in the 1960s and '70s, and then become the major conflict that the "western" industrial nations would face in the next century.

I also remember in the early 1980s, when Dick Gregory spoke about the conflict with the USA against Muslims in the Middle East, including the hostages in Iran and the Reagan adventures. Dick said that America would be unabled to comprehend what the young, revolutionary Muslims in the Middle East were saying, because America was not able to understand what Malcolm X had said twenty years earlier.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
10. Knights of the peculiar Order Skull & Boner


are henceforth summoned from their foul, dank chambres of tOrtuRe to aPPear beforE the people of the United States of America, to account for themselves and answer dark charges which we -- with the finest traditions of democracy at our heart -- hereby press against them: treason, torture, treachery most foul, and Murderous Global KKKruSADEry based on a PACK of LIES and w/out general citizen assent.

How plead ye?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
daa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
11. The telling part was
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 10:18 AM by daa
two armies facing off, both believing god was on their side.

It was actually two 2 hour episodes. excellent, and I remember none of this from school. The collusion of the popes was pretty fascinating, like how the pooe how the Germans with the holocaust.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. One of the Most Surreal Books I've Ever Read
was Deus Lo Volt! by Evan Connell (who also wrote the biography of Custer, Son of the Morning Star). It is an account of one of the Crusades not just from a first-person perspective, but from the mindset of someone of the time. As far as I know, it follows the historical narrative, but it's an utterly foreign experience. Here's are a couple of excerpts of his style:
In the year 1212 children resolved to do what kings and prices could not. They would march overseas to liberate the Holy Sepulcher. In the province of Orleannais a shepherd boy named Stephen from the village of Cloyes began to preach a doctrine never heard before. He declared that while tending his flock near Cloyes he was approached by a stranger, a pilgrim returning from the Holy Land, who asked him for something to eat. And when Stephen shared his food the pilgrim revealed himself to be Jesus Christ, saying that the innocent of France would succeed where kings had failed. He appointed this boy Stephen to lead the march and gave him a letter addressed to King Philip Augustus who was spending that summer at Saint Denys, burial place of Frankish kings since the time of Dagobert. Here, too, was the Oriflamme kept, holy standard of the realm. Concerning the identity of this stranger who claimed to be our Lord, chronicles report little. Mayhap some heretic thinking to reach the king. By himself he could not gain audience, but it is known how children work marvels and by means of an artless shepherd boy he thought to reach court with his diabolic argument.

---snip

hey set forth about the time of the Pentecost, according to the annal of Cologne, and left behind their plows and carts, abandoned the animals they pastured. Many took up pilgrim costume, wide brimmed hat, palmer's staff, gray coat and a cross sewn to the breast. By repute they numbered twenty thousand. Some leapt and danced like storks prepared to migrate. Thus wrapped in mighty delusions they walked from Cologne to Basle, to Geneva, traversed the Alps near Mount Cenis, by which time half had been lost, murdered, starved, frozen, drowned in raging mountain streams, devoured by famished wolves.

---snip

No one knows what became of Stephen, although an English monk, Thomas of Sherborne, while traveling through France long after the children vanished was held captive for eight days by a militant group of shepherds. This monk spoke of an old man commanding the shepherds who had been a slave in Egypt and promised the Sultan he would lead an army of Christians into bondage just as he had led Frankish children into slavery when he was a child. So he journeyed here and there preaching with no authority, claiming Our Lady had empowered him to conscript herdsmen and ploughmen by virtue of their simplicity to recover the Holy Land. Country folk left their flocks and herds to follow this old man. For, said they, God Almighty hath chosen the weak to confront the strong. Exiles, thieves, rogues, all came swarming. And whoever challenged their passage they would attack. Their master preached a doctrine of anger and venom that attacked various orders and deviated madly from conventional Christian doctrine. At the city of Bourges this all ended when this mob and its leader was attacked and ran down, most all slain, including the mad old man, the rest dispersed back to whence it came.

If the furious old man who led them was Stephen of Cloyes has been much debated. If he surrendered the ghost in boiling surf at Accipitrum, lost his head at Damascus, mayhap lived out his years in Muslim slavery, or if he declined to board the Judas ships and turned back to Cloyes, who shall decide? He with all who followed him had put their trust in Almighty God, expecting to win by faith what mounted knights could not through force of arms. They had gone armed with belief in lieu of steel. For love of our Lord they undertook the voyage, not for wealth or high repute. Those who devote their lives to Him, will they ever be disappointed at His reward?

It gets completely disorienting after awhile as you adopt the superstitious and limited viewpoint of the Crusader. Very different from ordinary history.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nemo137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. It's a brilliant book.
I'd second the recommendation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
13. clear proof that religion is mental illness
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enhancer Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
16. I bet.
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

What is it with Christians and the whole "enemy from the East" fixation?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC