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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 10:39 AM
Original message
The Democrats, Clinton, and the Welfare state
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 10:50 AM by BL611
So I was looking at, and briefly responded to a thread about whether the Dems should move left or right, but since my main point is a slight digression I figured I would start a new thread.

In my post on the other thread I mentioned it was not left/right that was the answer, but up, maybe a better word even would be forward. The model of this would be a somewhat readjusted and refined version of Clintonism. Many on the left criticize Clinton's economic policies as nothing but "DLC, Republican light, whoring", but this is wrongheaded and lacks a conception of what Clinton was trying to do. The point of Clinton's policies were not to undermine the welfare state, but restructure it to be effective in the rapidly changing world economy. Clinton found it pointless and politically foolish to build up a welfare state on the protectionist/corporatist structure that characterized the American postwar economic boom period. Instead he believed before you can build up the house, you have to make sure that the foundation is right for the landscape.

The way to build this now is by focusing on Energy Policy, both as an economic driver and for national security purposes, while giving people security in a world where they may have a half a dozen different jobs for two dozen companies over a lifetime, this can be done, by portable health care and pensions, wage insurance, job retraining programs, etc. This following of the Clinton paradigm is not a change in left/right, but a shift in what the debate of more or less government is in response to. Bulky anachronistic welfare state polices are not the answer, look at Germany, even Sweden has a privatized pension system now (which I am certainly not advocating for us). The focus must be to give people opportunity and security in a rapidly changing and unstable world, not to try to put $25 an hour + benefits jobs back on an assembly line.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good points
I agree with your analysis of Clinton.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think that you are mischaracterizing the argument from the left
The main thrust of that argument is that, under Clinton's "Welfare Reform" there were many millions of people who were thrust into such poverty that neither they nor their children had enough money for the basic necessities of life.
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Welfare Reform is not specifically what I was talking about
CLINTON'S CONCEPTION of welfare reform (not the Republican sponsored bill that he signed) is in line with my argument, as far as people on the left being angry about him signing the Republican bill, remember he vetoed it 3 times, and had an election coming up. He was faced with vetoing a bill based on one of his campaign promises for the fourth time with an impending election, had he not signed, and lost the election the Dole signed bill would have been far worse...

Again if you take a look at the Clinton proposal, which gave people AT LEAST 7 years with exceptions for extenuating circumstances, along with MASSIVE appropriations for job training, day care, and public works, this fits in line as a great example of my OP, and the of polices forward look Dems must champion.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. I think that the biggest objection to him from the left is that
he signed the Republican bill. That is what is remembered and what has lasting consequences, far more than his original version of the bill, that he never got to sign.

True, he had an election coming up. So, how much would have refusing to sign the bill hurt him in the election? Would it have dropped his chances of winning from 75% to 70%? If so, maybe refusing to sign the bill would have been worth the risk. So, he made a campaign promise to enact Welfare Reform. When he made that promise he didn't know that he was going to be faced with a Republican Congress with a far right agenda, and that that Congress would force him into making a decision either to sign a much harsher version of Welfare Reform than he had envisioned or nothing. Or, maybe if he had refused to sign that version Congress would have caved and come up with a bill much closer to what he and other Democrats thought would be fair.
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I think its highly unlikely
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 11:23 AM by BL611
that the Gingrich Republicans would have caved in or done anything like it in that situation, I think the adversity and pressure facing Clinton was greater then you seem to be contending. But my point here is not to debate the political efficacy of Clinton's decision's, but to look at what policy initiative's the dem's should be taking in the future...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Ok then - Isn't the effect that the current Welfare Reform law has on
millions of poor people in this country highly relevant to what policy initiatives we should strive for in the future?
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Yes what should be done about welfare and unemployment
is certainly relevant, so if you would like to critique the original Clinton proposal for what you feel is wrong with it,or how to change our current welfare laws, I would certainly be interested to hear it. I am not as much concerned now with the political decision Clinton made to sign TANF.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Proposing how to change our current welfare laws would be quite a task
So let me turn the tables on you and ask you for some clarification on what your main points are, if that would be ok.

You say in your OP that it is wrongheaded to criticize our current welfare laws (if I understand you correctly) -- that we should go up or forward, rather than right or left.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Does that mean that you're satisfied with the state of our current welfare laws, or does it just mean that you think that the Democrats have done as well as they could in that area, given our current political circumstances?

Do you feel that our current welfare laws give our poor a reasonably fair chance to make a decent life for themselves? (This is related to the above question).

And, have you read Barbara Ehrenbach's book, "Nickle and Dimed", and if so what did you think of it, given that perhaps its main argument is that our current welfare laws are not fair?
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. No
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 02:18 PM by BL611
I am not satisfied with our current welfare laws, I would be satisfied (at least reasonably) if Clinton's proposal had in fact become law. I do believe the Democrats squeezed everything they could out of the political reality of welfare reform debate of the mid 90's. I do believe if Clinton had done welfare before health care he might have been more successful on both fronts, but you know what they say about hindsight....


No, but the problem with "old" welfare (ADFC) was that I don't believe they gave people a reasonably fair chance to make it either, in the words of RFK "These people may have wanted husbands,and fathers (and jobs)....instead we have given them checks"


I read N&D, but it was a while back and only really remember the main point of her inability to make it as a poor blue collar woman, I don't recall any specific policies she may have laid out. My point is that the current welfare laws AREN'T fair, which is why I (and Clinton_)believe they need to be reformed.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. So how would you propose reforming them? n/t
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Along Clinton's lines
Increased funding for job training/ day care,guaranteed health insurance for their kids while making the transition more accountability and responsiveness within the bureaucracy. Essentially making sure that welfare mothers have the resources to get on their feet...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. I don't think that many DUers would disagree with that
Do you?
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Well evidently
from the "Clinton is a DLC whore" posts that normally come up, including underneath you on this thread, they do. Of course if they stepped back from their ad hominem MM(whether you want that to stand for mainstream media or Micheal Moore is up to you-they both are applicable) attacks, and looked at the forest for the trees, maybe they would agree (and gaining a comprehension of basic economics probably wouldn't hurt either...)
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Peter Edelman disagrees with using RFK words as 'benediction'
to what Clinton did or what you espouse ... and, I agree ...



Peter Edelman views the last decades of twentieth-century American social policy through a unique lens. As an aide to New York Senator Robert F. Kennedy, then as policy director for Kennedy's 1968 presidential campaign, Edelman watched and participated in Kennedy's transformation into a powerful political warrior against poverty and injustice. Three decades later, he was serving Bill Clinton as assistant secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) when Clinton signed the 1996 welfare reform legislation that cut many poor American families off at the knees. In signing the legislation, Clinton quoted Robert Kennedy: "Work is the meaning of what this country is all about. We need it as individuals. We need to sense it in our fellow citizens. And we need it as a society and as a people."

Edelman's loyalty to the administration ended with that stroke of Clinton's pen. He resigned soon after the signing, earning some brief measure of national attention. The fact that Clinton used the words of RFK as a benediction for an action undercutting 60 years of Democratic Party commitment to the poor became a burr under Edelman's saddle. He spent the next several years examining the impact welfare reform had on the poor and writing this book to set the record straight. Indeed, the first two-thirds of the book serves as the social policy equivalent of "I knew Bobby Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy was a friend of mine. You're no Bobby Kennedy."
~snip~

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=5678

RFK "sought to remedy the problems of poverty through legislation to encourage private industry to locate in poverty-stricken areas, thus creating jobs for the unemployed, and stressed the importance of work over welfare." http://www.rfkmemorial.org/lifevision/biography



The measure Clinton signed was largely the work of congressional Republicans...a new system of block grants that allow each of the 50 states to design and put in place their own version of welfare. And, federal aid comes with strings attached: welfare recipients must find work within two years, and there is a five-year lifetime limit on receiving aid. The plan is expected to save some $54.1 billion over six years, reductions achieved by reductions in the food stamp program, and by denying social services to legal immigrants...By signing the GOP bill, the president ... robbed GOP nominee Bob Dole of a key wedge issue. He could only say (improbably) that, "The first 100 days of the Dole administration have begun 97 days before the election." ... Liberals are not amused. Many, including such notables as New York Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, Rev. Jesse Jackson, and former New York Gov. Mario Cuomo have openly condemned the bill....

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/issues/topics/welfare.shtml






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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Did you read my posts?
Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 11:51 AM by BL611
I differentiated several times between the bill Clinton originally proposed and the Republican bill that he signed. I happen to like Edelman (and his wife) very much, his comments were directed toward the Republican bill Clinton SIGNED, not the bill Clinton PROPOSED (which is what I was advocating, again if you look over the thread I stated pretty unequivocally that I did not think that TANF was a good bill). Those quotes that you cited were from a book Edelman wrote several years ago called "Searching for America's Heart", if you read the book, you will see Edelman also SUPPORTED the Clinton conception of welfare reform, his issue was that when that bill was dead Clinton wound up signing the Republican bill. Your quotes spoke about Edelamn's specific disdain for Clinton quoting RFK during the signing ceremony, I too, did not think it was appropriate for Clinton to use the quote, but I suppose from Clinton's point of view he was trying to spin a political loss into a victory-that being said, this thread is not about the merits of when and how Clinton capitulated, but about what polices the Democrats should advocate for, in which Edelman and Clinton were (I assume still are) in agreement. You should actually read Edelman's book, as after throwing a few rhetorical bombs at his frustration with Clinton signing the bill in the introduction, settles into a very thoughtful nuanced analysis of welfare policy AND concedes the difficulty of the political situation that Clinton was dealing with at the time.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
3. Interesting- but private account pension has failed in all other countries
Interesting that your post suggests that Sweden has gone to a sucessful privatized personal savings account system - indeed that was claimed by Fund (and included with Poland and Britain) on Matthews show on March 2nd, while on Feb 27 on Fox News Sunday we have McCain claiming Sweden, Chile, England, others, all have personal savings accounts...And they have all been very successful.

Of course this was the usual GOP partial truth/lie. But I find it interesting that while I agree with your idea that current solutions must reflect our best guess as to the future and what would be effective in the future, your post includes the lie about the sucess of private accounts elsewhere.

:-)

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503040004

...the partially privatized systems in Britain, Poland, and Chile have yielded disappointing returns from the stock market combined with high administrative costs, and much of the population in these countries have chosen to opt out of the system. Moreover, the Swedish model is irrelevant to an assessment of Bush's proposal because Sweden uses private accounts to supplement its existing defined-benefit public pension system, rather than diverting taxes from that system to pay for the new accounts.

BRITAIN

....The Wall Street Journal reported on February 3 that Britain's privatized system "has been dogged by scandal, and many Britons now seek the security of state payouts." The Journal noted that after insurance salesmen deceptively persuaded many Britons to switch to private accounts by promising unrealistically high rates of return, these insurers were forced to "compensate customers who'd done worse by switching to private pensions. So far, payments have totaled £13 billion, about $24 billion at current exchange rates." As The New York Times similarly noted on February 12, the British plan "backfired when the value of those investments fell and insurance sales representatives were accused of selling products under false pretenses." .... A January 1999 report by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) indicated that, because opting for a private account involves switching from a defined benefit pension plan to a defined contribution plan, younger and poorer workers whose contributions to such accounts tend to be smaller or less consistent faced substantially increased risk of having a private account that fails to deliver an adequate retirement income. The CBO report noted that "ecause younger workers enter and leave the workforce more often than older workers, their contributions to personal pension plans tend to be more erratic and smaller," with "only half" of workers age 25 to 34 having "positive wages" during a three-year sample of the early 1990s, indicating that their contributions to their private pension funds were comparably small. The report continued: "nly about 50 percent of participants in private pension plans made contributions beyond the government rebate to their accounts , raising some concerns about the adequacy of retirement savings." .... the report noted that high administrative fees made private accounts particularly unattractive to poorer workers: "

eople with low earnings do not find personal pensions attractive because those pensions charge proportionately higher amounts for workers with low and unstable contributions." ....Norma Cohen, property correspondent for Britain's Financial Times, noted in a report for the AARP that the British "learned the hard way that the costs of administering private accounts can affect returns and reduce the size of a retirement pot by up to 30 percent." Cohen similarly noted in the February 2005 edition of The American Prospect that "what has gone wrong is that the costs and risks of running private investment accounts outweigh the value of the returns they are likely to earn." As a result, Cohen reported to AARP: "In 2004 alone, 500,000 people abandoned private pensions and moved back into the traditional government plan."

POLAND

Although the privatized Polish system was implemented only in 1999, early signs have not been promising. The Financial Times reported on June 25, 2001:

Two years into a landmark pension reform, many Poles who chose to contribute to private retirement funds have little to show for their nest eggs. Glitches in the computerisation of ZUS, the state social-security body, have meant that billions of zlotys in pension savings failed to reach Poland's 21 private pension funds. Many funds have produced unimpressive returns, often lagging investments in government bonds, bank deposits and even inflation in some cases.

The net rate of return was actually negative during the program's first three years, according to a 2002 report by the Social Security Administration; workers are protected, however, because unlike Bush's proposal for private accounts in the U.S., in Poland the "government guarantees a minimum pension ... indexed for inflation and funded by general revenues." As SSA international expert Barbara E. Kritzer, who wrote the report, noted: "Polish pension funds' net rate of return (deducting administrative fees) for the first 2 years was between -8.95 percent and -13.76 percent. The situation improved somewhat in the third year, although a total net loss was recorded."

The report also noted: "In November 2001, ZUS's debt was reported as more than US$776 million."

Like the British system, Poland's privatized government pension system proved susceptibile to scandal and manipulation. As the New York Times reported on February 12:

In Poland, an army of sales agents, hired under a new private savings regime in 1999, defrauded the system by charging commissions on false accounts. Since some of the sales agents were paid a commission for every new account, they simply invented them. Other accounts were in the names of deceased people.

Similarly, The Wall Street Journal reported on February 3 that about 18 percent of all private pensions were "bogus 'dead accounts,'" according to Polish deputy minister for social insurance Agnieszka Chlon-Dominczak.

CHILE

As Media Matters for America has previously noted, Chile's system of private accounts has been less effective for poor and middle-class workers than the public pension system that preceded it. The New York Times reported on January 27 that middle-class workers have discovered that private accounts "are failing to deliver as much in benefits as they would have received if they had stayed in the old system," and many poor Chileans don't receive "even a minimum pension" or "remain outside the system altogether." According to a Chilean government official specializing in pensions, "If people really had freedom of choice, 90 percent of them would opt to go back to the old system," the Times noted.

SWEDEN

Like the Polish system, the Swedish system of government-run private accounts system was implemented in 1999 and has already shown signs of significant problems (see here and here).

More important, a comparison between that system and Bush's proposal, which McCain and others have drawn, is meaningless. While Bush's plan involves diverting a portion of existing Social Security payroll taxes into private accounts, Sweden financed its government-mandated private investment accounts with an additional tax. The New York Times explained the distinction in a February 12 article: "Unlike Mr. Bush's Social Security overhaul proposal, which would carve voluntary private accounts out of existing taxes, the Swedish system imposes a mandatory 2.5 percent saving on top of its basic benefit."

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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I never said it was successful
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 11:25 AM by BL611
just that they had it I specifically said in the post I DO NOT advocate it for us, as for other countries I am not going to sit around and tell them what they should do, we have enough of our own problems to deal with. The point was just to illustrate how traditionally strong social democracies are also looking at ways to readjust their welfare state (not that there necessarily doing it the right way, but again not my business). Sorry for the misunderstanding:) .
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. No problem - I suspect I read pension posts with a bit too much "fire"
:toast:

:-)
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. all righty then -- a return to nafta and welfare to work.
corporations AND clinton were and still are trying to shift their responsibilty to workers on to the backs of the workers.

without significantly increasing the wealth/wages of the worker.

clintonism believes in the kind of globalism that sees the specialization of the american worker continuing and that will create a disaster for the american economy -- just imagine the consequences of another asian recession in a yet more specialized american economy.

that would throw millions onto an economic garbage heap -- and it's not IF but WHEN it happens.
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I really don't know how to respond to your post
as it is a perfect example of leftist hyperbole and economic illiteracy, if there is a (or)specific aspect(s) of my post you disagree with, please feel free to make a reasoned refutation, and I will be more then happy to reply...
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. self delete
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 11:32 AM by BL611
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Where is the hyperbole?
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 11:54 AM by K-W
You said it yourself in your original post. Clinton reformed welfare to make it more compatible with the rapidly changing private economy. Instead of the only goal of welfare being the elimination of poverty, the goal of welfare became the elimination of poverty, as long as it is compatible with whatever direction corporate America wants to rapidly take our economy.
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Maybe there is a misunderstanding
I never brought up welfare in the OP, I was talking the the welfare state, which is different then just welfare. The only goal of welfare and the welfare state is certainly NOT just to eliminate poverty. In need of a quick primer on Keynesianism?
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Welfare is one of the parts of the welfare state Clinton reformed,
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 01:00 PM by K-W
whether it is explicitely cited or not in your post or not.

The only goal of welfare and the welfare state is certainly NOT just to eliminate poverty. In need of a quick primer on Keynesianism?

The only specific goal of the welfare state is eliminating poverty. It can certainly also be considered a method of economic stimulation.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. okaaaay -- leftist hyperbole --
more of the same economic policy will get you more of the same results, no?

welfare to work didn't work.

in spite of the economic bubble of the 90's the american economy moved in an ever increasing specialized mode for the workers -- away from manufacturing and towards service and i.t. -- lifting good entry job work away from an ever increasing number of workers.

and we have a perfect example of better jobs for the middle class and ''off shoring'' in san diego.
after the aero space industry left san diego -- san diegans were told they would be able to move the local economy again by focusing on managerial, service, and other white collar ''styled'' jobs -- well industry found that mexicans were happy to get the required education for white collar jobs -- and industry was happy to ship those jobs south of the border -- pay those workers less, no health care, all of the short coming that we've come to expect with globalization.

san diego was left/is left with a distinct lack of diversity in the economy and too much reliance on the housing market.
and of course that trend is spreading around the country.

what you don't know about the distinct disadvantage that specialization brings -- i don't know -- but so far it's a disaster.

it moves an ever increasing cost of health care, re-education, cost of housing, etc onto the backs of the workers with out the commensurate rewards
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AnAmericanXX Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
12. You hit the nail on the head about the energy policy....
Finally someone is seeing the very big picture about the future of our country. Our country was built on industrialisation, invention, and manufacturing prowess. As third world countries have grown through these same processes, our national production of goods has declined. America seems to be moving toward a 'service' based country, while we let cheap labor take over the manufacturing of common goods.
One thing that all of us need is energy. Our country needs to focus on new energy sources, and create new jobs in this industry, to guarantee safe, clean, and efficient energy sources for the future. How long can our country prosper if energy costs tie the hands of every American.
Our party should make one of their major issues in the next election the creation of an effective energy policy. Every American suffers from expensive energy costs.
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Yes the future belongs
to whichever nation wins the race to be able to produce clean renewable energy. It is simply the only way for us to maintain comparative advantage over the long haul...
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
13. Yes, Clinton tailored welfare to serve the economy
as defined by corporations.

This is the problem with your analysis. It takes for granted that the economy will be designed by private power. You like Clinton, arent even so much advocating those policies, but accepting them as inevitable. The "rapidly changing world economy." as you call it, isnt an act of God, it isnt some siesmic shift that we witness passively or at least it shouldnt be. It certainly isnt something that the investor class witnesses passively. It certainly isnt something that CEO's witness passively. It certainly isnt something that corporate lobbyists witness passively. It certainly isnt something the Republican Party witnesses passively.

So why do so many Democrats want to witness it passively? Why are Democrats only interested in how to preserve some sliver of a social saftynet in the new economy and not in giving thier constituents a say in what that new economy will look like?

The answer is fairly obvious. Many Democrats also support those economic policies and that economic model. This is fine, but we should be having a open, national debate about the nature of our economy and this will never happen as long as the national debate is largely framed by two major parties, neither of which recognizes that an alternative to the economic future determined by wealthy institutions is even possible.

Welfare wasnt created to serve the private economy. It was created to build up a public economy that could address the massive social problems that would not only never be solved by the private economy, but were to a large extent created and exacerbated by the private economy.

It is only after decades of propaganda that weakening the welfare system could be sold as modernization by Clinton.
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Well it does take for granted
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 12:10 PM by BL611
that we live in relatively free market oriented mixed economy, unless your advocating some sort of complete state socialism, I would say its a fair thing to take for granted, that does not mean that it is completely designed by private power, what I'm saying is quite to the contrary. The world economy is not an act of god, it is an act of technology and to a lesser extent the fall of the Soviet empire. The point is NOT to "witness it passively" it is to adjust our welfare state to be relevant and serve the people of our country PROVOCATIVELY.

Again the point I make is that the Dem's (at least Clinton and those who followed his path-which is also different from straight up DLC Dem's, of which I might agree with you) are not trying to preserve a sliver, they are trying to readjust it so they have a safety net that is functional to build up.

Welfare was IN PART created to serve the private economy in the sense that it was created to mitigate the inefficacy's of a laissez faire system, it is often said that it is liberals responsibly to "save capitalism from the capitalists", so to the effect that it complements the private sector, it does serve it.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. A mixed economy means having different institutions.
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 12:59 PM by K-W
Institutions that function in different ways, with different goals, and different methods. It doesnt mean taking one set of institutions and reforming them to serve a different, more powerful set of institutions.

Well it does take for granted that we live in relatively free market oriented mixed economy,

Your post took for granted the status quo and the corporate driven changes in the economy. Im not sure what any of this has to do with free markets. Or did you believe the wealthy when they claimed thier goals were economic freedom and not personal profit?

unless your advocating some for of complete state socialism

I am not advocating for anything, I am pointing out that the way you frame this issue treats the shape of the American economy as something that most Americans dont have any say in. The economy is something to accepted and dealt with, not something that government policies themselves can shape.

, I would say its a fair thing to take for granted, that does not mean that it is completely designed by private power,

Well, it is almost compltetely designed by private power.

what I'm saying is quite to the contrary. The world economy is not an act of god, it is an act of technology and to a lesser extent the fall of the Soviet empire.

That is what "act of god" means. It means it is something that is out of our control, the result of forces more powerful than us.

That is utter mythology. The world economy is shaped by the actions of the powerful institutions that make it up who themselves are shaped by the interests of the individuals they are accountable to. And by and large those individuals happen to the wealthiest people in the wealthiest nations.

If regular people understood this they might create organizations, or use organizations that are accountable to them (like representative governments) to influence the shape of the economy. But as long as they think that the global economy is like the weather, out of anyones control, they will accept it as a 'foundation' and then build thier ideology on it.

Through this propagandistic slight of hand, the New Deal is being destroyed by Republicans and Democrats alike because people no longer feel that the shape of the economy is something they have any say in at all.

The point is NOT to "witness it passively" it is to adjust our welfare state to be relevant and serve the people of our country PROVOCATIVELY.

First you advocated reforming welfare to fit with the changing economy, now you want it to serve the people... make up your mind.

The changing economy does not serve the people. As an advocate of mixed economies you should understand this. The private economy follows the perogatives of wealth and profit. This is why mixed economy advocates want other types of economic institutions.

The whole point of a mixed economy is having seperate institutions that operate in different ways to accomplish different tasks. It means a welfare system that isnt reformed to liking of corporations, but to the liking of poor people.

Again the point I make is that the Dem's (at least Clinton and those who followed his path-which is also different from straight up DLC Dem's, of which I might agree with you) are not trying to preserve a sliver, they are trying to readjust it so they have a safety net that is functional to build up.

They were definately trying to do more than that, but because they did not question the orthodoxy of the private economy they put themselves in a position where the only options were those that benefited the private economy at the expense of the welfare system.

Welfare was IN PART created to serve the private economy in the sense that it was created to mitigate the inefficacy's of a laissez faire system,

How does mitigating the effect of something equate to serving it? Does anti-venom serve venom? Welfare was created to serve people who werent being served by the private economy (and were in fact being exploited by the private economy). Its usefulness is derived from the fact that it doesnt serve the private economy.

it is often said that it is liberals responsibly to "save capitalism from the capitalists", so to the effect that it complements the private sector, it does serve it.

Who is talking about complimenting it? The reforms undertaken by Clinton were not designed to compliment the private economy they were designed to match the goals and orthadoxy of the private economy.

If it were something that worked to counter the destructive effects of the private economy it would be opposed severely by economic elites not supported as much needed reform.
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. 1st part of response...
"Your post took for granted the status quo and the corporate driven changes in the economy. Im not sure what any of this has to do with free markets. Or did you believe the wealthy when they claimed thier goals were economic freedom and not personal profit"

What they claim their goals to be is not relevant,our economic system IS driven by private power to what extent they actually get to design the system is what must be debated, my OP's contention is that what could be called Clintonism was not designed to meet the needs of the private sector, but of the public good within our changing society. Again unless you're contesting that considerations of economic growth in the private sector should NOT AT ALL be considered I fail to see your point.


"That is what "act of god" means. It means it is something that is out of our control, the result of forces more powerful than us.

That is utter mythology. The world economy is shaped by the actions of the powerful institutions that make it up who themselves are shaped by the interests of the individuals they are accountable to. And by and large those individuals happen to the wealthiest people in the wealthiest nations."

It is not not a mythology that technology changes economic realties, its called "creative destruction", if you are suggesting that we have it in our power to halt technological advance so we can deal with a static economy, I suppose in some hypothetical sense your right, but I certainly wouldn't call such a scenario desirable.

You bring up the new deal approvingly (I certainly agree), understand the New Deal was a reaction to industrialism, many at the time of the New Deal, argued that adjusting government to face the challenges of the new economy was not the answer, but that attempting to turn back to a more agrarian Jeffersonian democracy", was preferable. This is a similar argument to currently arguing that the anachronistic shibboleth's of yesterday's left that dealt with yesterday's reality should be preferred to new solutions to deal with our current issues, what I am advocating is a sort of New New Deal to deal with our current technology based economy the same way the first new deal dealt with the industrial economy.


"First you advocated reforming welfare to fit with the changing economy, now you want it to serve the people... make up your mind.

The changing economy does not serve the people. As an advocate of mixed economies you should understand this. The private economy follows the prerogatives of wealth and profit. This is why mixed economy advocates want other types of economic institutions.

The whole point of a mixed economy is having separate institutions that operate in different ways to accomplish different tasks. It means a welfare system that isn't reformed to liking of corporations, but to the liking of poor people."

The only way that welfare can serve the people is for it to be reformed so it can fit with the changing economy, if it is based on an economic reality that no longer exists, it is not serving the people. You should make up your mind.

I advocate for mixed economies because I believe they are the most efficient. While my personal impulses are based upon helping the poor and the public good, my opinions are based upon sound growth oriented sustainable economic polices, these should be to the liking of both corporations AND poor people as they should benefit them both in the long term, my goal is not to be hostile to the private sector, it is to make it conducive to the public good.



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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. response
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 02:35 PM by K-W
What they claim their goals to be is not relevant, our economic system IS driven by private power to what extent they actually get to design the system is what must be debated, my OP's contention is that what could be called Clintonism was not designed to meet the needs of the private sector, but of the public good within our changing society. Again unless you're contesting that considerations of economic growth in the private sector should NOT AT ALL be considered I fail to see your point.

Well that just isnt true. Clinton's policies were very much effected by, shaped by, and openly in service to the private economy. Clinton was very open about that fact.

And yes, i am saying that the growth of the system that produces and exacerbates inequality should not be a goal of the system that is supposed to counteract that inequality.

What good is a mixed economyn if the growth of one sector has to be a goal of all the other sectors? When is it the private economies turn to reform to make the welfare state grow?


It is not not a mythology that technology changes economic realties, its called "creative destruction",


No it isnt. And technology doesnt change the realities, it changes the potential realities. Just because a technology exists doesnt mean we have to use it, and it doesnt mean we have to use it in a specific way. Technology is wholly under human control, it is not something that acts on us, it is something we create and use.

It is not the technology that is changing the world, it is people and institutions using those technologies. That is the issue, how does that technology get used, when does it get used, what does it get used for. And those are decisions that we should all have a say in, not decisions that we should pretend get made by fate.

if you are suggesting that we have it in our power to halt technological advance so we can deal with a static economy, I suppose in some hypothetical sense your right, but I certainly wouldn't call such a scenario desirable.

Good thing I never suggested that.

You bring up the new deal approvingly (I certainly agree), understand the New Deal was a reaction to industrialism, many at the time of the New Deal, argued that adjusting government to face the challenges of the new economy was not the answer, but that attempting to turn back to a more agrarian Jeffersonian democracy", was preferable. This is a similar argument to currently arguing that the anachronistic shibboleth's of yesterday's left that dealt with yesterday's reality should be preferred to new solutions to deal with our current issues,

Except that nobody has made the argument you are countering here. Why are you arguing against a point that niether I, nor anyone on this thread, has made?

Nobody is arguing that we advance old models, people are arguing that we advance new models based on liberal values to counter the models based on conservative values.

what I am advocating is a sort of New New Deal to deal with our current technology based economy the same way the first new deal dealt with the industrial economy.

We still have an industrial economy. The technology doesnt change that.

Just because corporate America claims we have a new economy now doesnt make it so, and doesnt mean that Democrats should just accept this new economy without question and then work from there.


The only way that welfare can serve the people is for it to be reformed so it can fit with the changing economy, if it is based on an economic reality that no longer exists, it is not serving the people. You should make up your mind.


I know what you are but what am I! I have never contradicted myself so I have no need to make up my mind. I dont know what this mythological new economy you are referring to is, of course the economy changes, it has always changed, but to argue that we have crossed some magical line of change that means we should ignore history is a big silly no?

I advocate for mixed economies because I believe they are the most efficient.

Im not sure a faith based approach is the best way to deal with economics.

While my personal impulses are based upon helping the poor and the public good, my opinions are based upon sound growth oriented sustainable economic polices, these should be to the liking of both corporations AND poor people as they should benefit them both in the long term, my goal is not to be hostile to the private sector, it is to make it conducive to the public good.

You cant have your cake and eat it to. Providing for poor people and making the rich richer are conflicting goals. Clinton was wrong to think they were compatible and so are you.

A real welfare state is anethema to private power and vice-versa. Argue for a mixed economy if you want, but argue for one that recognizes the competing interests in our society, not one that pretends we are all working for the same things.

If we reduce inequality, the rich will feel attacked. If we give the rich greater profits, it will increase inequality. The fact that we have computers now hasnt changed that fact.
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Maybe we should take a step back
There can be no doubt that technology changes economic realities, if you don't think the ability to be in contact with anyone in the world, at any time doesn't change the way economies work, you are being illogical. If you don't believe having constant improvements in supply chains on a day to day basis, rather then a decade to decade basis changes the way economies work you are being illogical. Let us first come to conclusion on this before we move on...
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. 2nd part
Edited on Mon Nov-21-05 02:04 PM by BL611
"How does mitigating the effect of something equate to serving it? Does anti-venom serve venom? Welfare was created to serve people who werent being served by the private economy (and were in fact being exploited by the private economy). Its usefulness is derived from the fact that it doesnt serve the private economy"


For the private sector its usefulness is derived in the fact that its corrects enough of the gross inequality in the market system to make it sustainable. By serving the people who are not served by the private economy, it produces the social cohesion necessary to sustain liberal democracy. Many on the right do not realize this which brings me back to my original quote of liberals saving capitalism from the capitalists. It's also why people on the far left a la Chomsky cynically look down at liberals for creating the welfare state thats brings enough cohesion to our society to keep it sustainable, as evidently they believe (at least rhetorically) social breakdown and the "revolution" that would follow would be preferable. If you concur with this belief, well thats another converstaion...

"Who is talking about complimenting it? The reforms undertaken by Clinton were not designed to compliment the private economy they were designed to match the goals and orthodoxy of the private economy.

If it were something that worked to counter the destructive effects of the private economy it would be opposed severely by economic elites not supported as much needed reform."


Again the goals of the private economy are really the same as that of the public good-a stable liberal democracy, unfortunately many of the people that advocate on both sides of the fence don't seem to realize that. If those elites knew what was good for them, and some do (Keynes was quite a rich snob himself), they would want the destructive effects mitigated.
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maximovich Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
32. BL611 is on a Real Tear Today Huh?
Welfare state my ass....

Look around you. Red China own our debt, during a time of war while Bush and his cronies give tax money to the super elite as they outsource. What welfare are you talking about?
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Actually..
I have not the slightest clue what you're talking about, what does any of what you say have to do with my OP?
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maximovich Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Your Title "...Welfare State" (nt)
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. I still don't get it
What does my title and the welfare state have to do with tax cuts and our debt to China? Please explain...
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BL611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. But I am now really curious
as to what the hell you're talking about, please don't leave me hanging...
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maximovich Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Sorry BL...
I left the board yesterday. My statement was targeted toward the assumption of a "Welfare State". It's a term used readily by the right to accuse the left of big government and higher taxes.

I was juxtaposing both corporate and state welfare to highlight how one really offsets the other. Sorry about the tangency I made, and sorry for not returning a reply sooner.

- stepnw1f
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