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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 10:51 AM
Original message
Abortion cuts growth of black population
This was publised in my local paper...
Can anyone help refute this?

This reeks of White Supremacy...IMO...

http://www.publicopiniononline.com/news/stories/20031016/opinion/465353.html
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BJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. Years ago...
...A friend interviewed an African American anti-abortion woman and her argument was very similar, as I remember. It's merely anti-abortion, pro-bastardy.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. One of the glaring flaws in logic is...
Seems like he's trying have it both ways...

"The abortion rate in the District of Columbia, whose majority population is black, is six times the national rate."

How can DC have a majority black population if "Abortion cuts growth of black population"?????

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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Good point!
Sometimes the simplest answers elude us, eh? :-)
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. one might also point out
the number of colleges and universities in the district and we all know college students to be in the promiscuous vein. GW (my school) has the second most sexually active dormitory in the US college system, and you think they all use protection? Most of them can't flunk out of school so they go the easy way.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. of course they can
if the remaining birthrate is enough to substain the majority.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Early proponents of abortion wanted to restrict black reproduction
Unfortunately. Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood were pretty strongly pro-eugenics and reasoned that it would be best for society if poor black people didn't reproduce so much. While that kind of attitude my have passed for "progressive" 100 years ago, today it's rightly considered rank racism.

You see a similar dynamic now-a-days when young women from poor backgrounds are encouraged not to have kids if they "can't afford it" - meaning they can't afford a middle class suburban lifestyle. Part of being pro-choice is the choice to reproduce, regardless of how much money you have.

I've heard African American activists call the high rate of abortion "black genocide" more than once.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. do you REALLY want to start this bullshit up here, again?
'Cause if you do, you might end up regretting it sorely.

It may be that some early proponents of some variety of "birth control" were racist. MARGARET SANGER WAS NOT ONE OF THEM.

Margaret Sanger DID NOT "reason that it would be best for society if poor black people didn't reproduce so much". NOT. NOT EVER. Margaret Sanger reasoned that black women were as entitled as white women to control their own reproductive processes, and quite likely that the cycle of poverty that left women dying in childbirth and their children dying of disease and hunger (you got any idea of how many of the children of an impoverished woman who had 8 or 10 or 12 children actually survived early childhood?) tended to hit black women even harder, if anything. But Margaret Sanger NEVER advocated controlling the fertility of the black community in any way other than by offering black women the means to control their own fertility.

The poor WANTED access to contraception. They didn't WANT to bear doomed child after doomed child, dooming themselves to ill health and early death in the process. That was the whole fucking point, the whole point of Sanger's work with the poor.


The US Supreme Court, on the other hand, by the pen of that Oliver Wendell Holmes guy, figured that "three generations of morons" were enough to justify forcibly sterilizing women in state mental institutions.

Margaret Sanger had no hand in the forcible sterilization of anyone.

What you do have relatively right is this bit:

"While that kind of attitude my have passed for 'progressive' 100 years ago, today it's rightly considered rank racism."

Today, we'd consider forcibly sterilizing epileptics to be the depth of human rights violations. Back then, they thought they were sparing a future generation the ravages of an untreatable disorder and all the misery (and burden on society) that came with it.

We don't get to judge them by the standard of our knowledge.

"You see a similar dynamic now-a-days when young women from poor backgrounds are encouraged not to have kids if they 'can't afford it' - meaning they can't afford a middle class suburban lifestyle. Part of being pro-choice is the choice to reproduce, regardless of how much money you have."

Yup. And part of offering responsible information and advice to someone who asks for it is to encourage her to look realistically at what her and her children's life will be like if she has children when she is too immature and too socially and economically unstable to provide a good life for either herself or them.

And yup, the world would be lovely if young women who wanted to have children didn't have to worry about feeding and housing and clothing them. But that ain't the world a lot of young women actually live in.

"I've heard African American activists call the high rate of abortion 'black genocide' more than once.

Hmm, yes, I've heard the odd one say that, myself. And I've always been under the very clear impression that the ones saying it were not pro-choice when I've heard them. And that makes what they're saying anti-democratic and misogynist and plain evidence that they really don't give a shit about individuals' welfare or rights, African-American individuals included. And it makes it pretty obvious to me that they are exploiting the disadvantage that African Americans do suffer, for their own ends ... what ya might call "playing the race card" I do believe.

.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. hmmm
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about/thisispp/sanger.html

Although Sanger uniformly repudiated the racist exploitation of eugenics principles, she agreed with the "progressives" of her day who favored

* incentives for the voluntary hospitalization and/or sterilization of people with untreatable, disabling, hereditary conditions
* the adoption and enforcement of stringent regulations to prevent the immigration of the diseased and "feebleminded" into the U.S.
* placing so-called illiterates, paupers, unemployables, criminals, prostitutes, and dope-fiends on farms and open spaces as long as necessary for the strengthening and development of moral conduct

Planned Parenthood Federation of America finds these views objectionable and outmoded.

Sorry if I overstated the case. I guess I confused Sanger's personal opinions with others in the movement that did hold those views pretty explicitly. I think Sanger, like most "well-meaning progressives" of her day, had a problem with paternalism.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. thank you
Sorry if I overstated the case. I guess I confused Sanger's personal opinions with others in the movement that did hold those views pretty explicitly. I think Sanger, like most "well-meaning progressives" of her day, had a problem with paternalism.

And Sanger very plainly dissociated herself from those people at the time in question, too.

The things that Sanger may have "favoured" that most of us would probably find objectionable are things that we very possibly would have favoured if we'd lived in her day.

Not necessarily -- not all do-gooders took the same line as Sanger; some were what we'd consider more progressive. But hell, there are some around here I'd consider less progressive than Sanger in the 20s, so it's all a matter of perspective.

I've seen anti-choice internet sites claiming Emma Goldman as one of their own, if you can imagine. Red Emma, the feminist icon -- who refused to perform abortions for the women who begged her to do it ... because she had no way of doing it safely and the risk of the women dying of infection was so high.

They claim that Sanger said some things they don't like for reasons that were never Sanger's reasons ... they claim that Goldman said some things they do like for reasons that were never Goldman's reasons. Amazing.

Anyhow, that's the other thing that let's not forget. The things that Sanger is so oft and so deceitfully quoted as saying, to the extent that she did say them, she said a good 40 years before she died, for the most part. Sanger really was not wandering around the country in 1960 recommending that druggies and hookers be interned on farms, she just wasn't. I wonder how many of us will think back, in 40 years, to some of the things we said at DU, and just cross our fingers that nobody saved a copy.



There was some talk here the other day about how some people who have it good might not quite understand the realities lived by people who don't have it so good.

The same applies to people divided from us by time, as to people divided from us by class. I first read this in Mother Jones a couple of years ago -- it's about the miserable, filthy, disease-ridden, hunger-wracked existence of the people who lived in an area of NYC called Mulberry Bend in the late 19th century. A little before Sanger's time, but there were still people living in those conditions then. (To be equal opportunity: there were people living in some pretty appalling conditions in Toronto at the time as well, just not nearly so many and not quite so horribly, and, in part thanks to the Toronto Star newspaper and its do-good campaigns, not quite so hopelessly.)


http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/JA01/otherhalf.html

The Bend was ultimately torn down and a park built on its
site in 1897 after unrelenting pressure from Jacob Riis, the
Danish-born journalist and social reformer. In How the Other
Half Lives, an early landmark in reforming literature whose
title became a catchphrase, Riis provides some numbers
for Mulberry Bend, which he obtained from the city's
Registrar of Vital Statistics. In 1888, he wrote, 5,650 people
lived on Baxter and Mulberry streets between Park and
Bayard. If Riis means strictly the buildings within the Bend,
as he almost certainly does, then the population density
there was 2,047 persons per acre, nearly all of them recent
immigrants.

By itself, that's an almost meaningless figure. But think of it
this way: In Manhattan today, 1,537,195 persons live on
14,720 acres, a density of slightly more than 104 per acre. ...

Now consider a final set of numbers: According to Riis and
the city statistician, the death rate of children under five in
Mulberry Bend was 140 per 1,000, roughly 1 out of 7. This
is likely to be an underestimate. (Citywide, the number was
just under 100 per 1,000 and falling fast.) Today, Mulberry
Bend would rank between Lesotho and Tanzania in
under-five mortality and worse than Haiti, Eritrea, Congo,
and Bangladesh. Last year, the under-five mortality rate for
the United States was 8 per 1,000, or 1 out of 125.

... In one of his many articles on tenement housing, Riis
printed a map of the Bend drawn from overhead, a
silhouette showing the proportion of open space to
buildings. Looking at that map is like looking at an
old-fashioned diagram of a cell, a hieroglyphic of dark and
light. It's hard to know what to call the spaces depicted by
the white areas on Riis's map. Yard is too pastoral and air
shaft too hygienic. Riis calls them "courts" and "alleys,"
but even those words are too generous. What the white
spaces really portray are outdoor places where only a
single layer of humans could live, many of them homeless
children who clustered in external stairwells and on
basement steps. In the tenements of the Bend—three, four,
and five stories each—families and solitary lodgers, who
paid five cents apiece for floor space, crowded together in
airless cubicles. "In a room not thirteen feet either way,"
Riis wrote of one midnight encounter, "slept twelve men and
women, two or three in bunks set in a sort of alcove, the
rest on the floor."


I think it's pretty easy to imagine why a "reformer" would want to offer those women whatever assistance she could to ensure that she didn't spend her life bearing children too often destined for to live for a brief while, and then die, in those conditions, or become one of the homeless ones in the "yards" when the women died young themselves.

And in point of fact, the people that article is about were pretty much all *not* African-American. The bulk of Sanger's work too, as I understand it, was with the urban, white poor; it was really out of a spirit of equal opportunity that she tried to expand, to bring her illegal family planning services, which she of course dispensed at risk to herself, to the black community!

.
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Undemcided Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I don't support abortion.
But I don't believe Sanger was racist.
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. This is an opinion piece
from an obscure English teacher at an obscure school...

move on, nothing to see here.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Its a State University...
and not that obscure...its one of the colleges you might to go if you dont go to PennState...

Gen. Tommy Franks is an Alum...
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. Some thoughts...
If you drive in Washington on Georgia Avenue above Howard University, only a few miles from the White House and the Capitol, and from upscale Georgetown, and only a few blocks from Catholic University and the magnificent National Shrine, you see the sad state of life of blacks, whose lives, as Adam Clayton Powell, the black representative from New York in the 1960s, used to say, were without hope, and whose "day refuses to dawn." The solution to their problem is not simple or easy.

But, considering that readily available abortion encourages irresponsibility and that post-abortive women suffer long-term depression, killing their unborn children is not part of the solution.



Your article is conflating several dozen different populations of black people.

There are many reasons why a particular group is successful or unsuccessful. Location, opportunity, education, and personal values and choices are only a few factors that go in to success.

Even focusing only on the variable of abortion, not a few women choose abortion or choose to limit the size of their family in order to continue their education, or to escape a cycle of poverty and welfare dependence. Their decision may not show evidence of benefit in their generation, but it often benefits the next generation. On the other hand, a choice to have a large family may have an influence on the success of the next generation.

Maybe if it were possible to do long-term controlled studies of specific women whose life circumstances were equal in all the other particulars and the only differences were that one subset of the women had an abortion while the other subset of women did not, some valid conclusions could be drawn from the observations. When you are talking about large groups of people whose experiences are different with respect to so many other variables, though, any sweeping conclusion such as the one "your" writer wants to claim is simply not valid.
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XNASA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. All the data I found says that the abortion rate for....
..non-whites is higher than it is for whites. It's not double, but it is higher.

One important note though is that abortion rates went down for all during the 90's.

I won't bore you with the links. I googled "abortion rate national" and found out quite a bit.

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E Pluribus Unum Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. I have always heard just the opposite.
Abortion rates for whites is much higher than non-whites.
Granted I have never researched it but have read several articles about it.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
8. Heh...
he states that hispanics don't have as high an abortion rate, and credits that to hispanic families being more welcoming to a child. I don't suppose it could have ANYTHING to do with the extremely high percentage of hispanics who remain Roman Catholic...

This guy's an Fundie Anti-Abortion Idiot (tm).

He also doesn't compare the birth rates of people of different ethnicities. If African-Americans have twice the abortion rate of European Americans, but still are having more children than European Americans on a per capita basis, how exactly are they having their population cut back? They're either maintaining or gaining in total percentage of the population...
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
9. as a simple fact it might be true
but why is it significant? Is he really advocating that the sensible thing to do is to breed as much as possible, and teach your children that when they grow up (after a childhood in a family that might not be able to afford a large number of children) they should vote to give people with their skin colour as much money as possible? I don't think he'd see that as a responsible thing to do.

The fact that he sees life as a struggle of numbers between Whites, Hispanics and Blacks does seem to mark him as a racist. Seeing women as being responsible for breeding as many children as possible to get your point of view was a hallmark of the Nazis. The only difference is that he's not advocating violence, just voting based on colour.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. Hard to argue with the headline
Edited on Thu Oct-16-03 11:44 AM by HFishbine
Even one abortion of a black child would "cut the growth of black population," but his rhetoric is about something else for which he provides no facts. He asserts that abortion is an attempt to diminish black populations. This falls apart upon examination.

First, he offers nothing other than his own conjencture that anybody is trying to diminish black populations. Although he credits such an attempt as being successful, he offers no evidence that such attempts actually exist beyond his own imagination.

Second, he is factually incorrect in asserting that black populations have been diminished. I don't have the data at hand, but I'm confident that the population of black people has increased over the past several decades. His whole argument is built upon an assertion that is provable false. The black population has grown, not diminished.

He establishes an imaginary conspiracy and supports it with an observably false assertion. Correct those and the rug gets pulled out from under his thesis.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think it is like saying blacks were on welfare and really their
were many more white people on welfare than blacks. It is a things printed for those Southerns I bet. I had such a bad time living their my self. Even my children did. We were just to Yankee to last long and finally came back North. I mean you went to the rest room and their would be two, both women, and only one was for whites. I by the way never learned which to use and said to hell with it all. I just do not understand that type stuff at all. It is sort of under ground and seems every one knows but me.I bet this is that double speak stuff.
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
12. In reality, it cuts white population, too...
... now doesn't it? This is a cynical attempt to cater to (perceived) conspiracy theories in the African-American community.

And for my part, I think population reduction is a good thing.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
13. Shippensburg U - Racism and Cultural Diversity Policy Statement
Racism and Cultural Diversity Policy Statement

As an institution of higher learning, Shippensburg University is committed without qualification to all aspects - moral, legal and administrative - of racial and cultural diversity. It is the unequivocal position of Shippensburg University to prohibit racism/ethnic intimidation and harassment; and to affirm cultural diversity, social justice and equality.

Racism shall be defined as the subordination of any person or group based upon race, color, creed or national origin. It shall be a violation of this policy for any person or group to maliciously intend to engage in any activity, (covert or overt that attempts to injure, harm, malign or harass), that causes the subordination, intimidation and/or harassment of a person or group based upon race, color, creed, national origin, sex, disability or age.

Shippensburg University's commitment to racial tolerance, cultural diversity and social justice will require every member of this community to ensure that the principles of these ideals be mirrored in their attitudes and behaviors.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. well firstly
the author blames abortion on the decrease of the black population.

What about family planning? What about people using birth control, condoms, etc? Has that no effect on the decrease of ANYONE having a child that is unplanned?

I'm active in Pro-Choice movements. I have seen NOTHING that would indicate that abortion providers are 'singling out' black women, or black families---which would have to be the case if abortion were 'cutting the growth of black families'.

The cities he quoted--philadelphia, DC---as having more black women than white women having abortions, are predominatly black cities. Of course the number of black women having abortions will be higher if the city has more black women than white women. That's simple mathematics.

The writer is making no sense, and is blaming ABORTION (oooh! Evil! Bad! Wiping out the black people) for something that there is NO PROOF that Abortion is the cause of.

How many black women in these cities are on birth control? How many of the black women in these cities are taking a pro-active stance against pregnancy (re: not getting pg. in the first place as opposed to having an abortion after pg occurs)?

This dude is talking out of his ass
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. speaking of white supremacy and abortion
Oops. White supremacy and the anti-choice brigade, that would be.

http://www.barf.org/articles/0080/

"Norma McCorvey's Strange Bedfellows"

Norma's the Roe of Roe v. Wade fame. And she has new friends now. Some stalwarts of the Christian Identity movement.

Sometimes the anti-choice brigade might just want to consider cleaning up its own back yard, plucking that log out of its own eye, scrubbing the bottom of its own pot, before it starts heaving bricks at someone else's house.


But there is another aspect to McCorvey’s work that has gone
largely unnoticed.

In May of 1998, The Jubilee Newspaper reported that McCorvey
was a featured speaker at “Jubilation ’98,” a convention hosted
by the newspaper and its editor, in Scottsdale, Arizona. Jubilee is
a newspaper that is widely recognized as one of the leading
publications of the Christian Identity movement. Christian
Identity ideology holds that only white "Aryans" are the true
"Israel," that is, only they are eligible for salvation in the
Christian sense of the word, and that Jews are of Satan. This
belief can be found directly on the Jubilee web site as part of the
explanation of the newspaper’s viewpoint, as follows:

We understand and teach that the descendants of the
Israelites of scripture are the Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian,
Celtic, Germanic and European people with whom God has
made His covenant. They are the descendants of Abraham.
Those who refer to themselves as Jews and are NOT but are
of the synagogue of Satan (the adversary)...

The Jubilee Newspaper of May/June, 1998, published a photo of
the Jubilee editor, Paul Hall, sitting with his arm around
McCorvey at the 1998 conference; there is no question that Hall
is responsible for the quote above.

Paul Hall has also editorialized in his newspaper against
interracial marriage, in an editorial entitled “Inter-racial
Genocide,” which appeared in the July/August 1997 issue:

The epidemic of inter-racial children, is the systematic and
planned extermination of an entire racial group…



Gosh, it looks like anybody can play that "genocide" card in aid of just about any agenda you can imagine ...

.
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
24. Wouldn't condoms be easier?
Personally, I don't think it's racist to suggest that people shouldn't have chidren unless they have the necessary resources (emotional, financial, familial) to raise them properly.

Still, there's something fundamentally wrong when abortion is being used as a form birth control. A little more education on proper birth control techniques could go a long way.
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