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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 04:56 PM
Original message
Mark Crispin Miller's Reply to Salon >>>
Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 05:00 PM by Stephanie
Mods, I have permission from the author to post the whole thing.


MCM responds to:

http://www.salon.com/books/review/2005/11/14/miller/index.html

Don't get "Fooled Again"
In his new book, Mark Crispin Miller tries to prove that Republicans rigged the 2004 election, but his evidence is thinner than a butterfly ballot.
By Farhad Manjoo <2005-11-14>




http://letters.salon.com/books/review/2005/11/14/miller/permalink/8a51ed5b12d00fb8b06bf100969480f8.html

Mark Crispin Miller replies

It should come as no surprise that I was not much pleased by Farhad Manjoo's attack on Fooled Again. Manjoo charges that my book presents "no proof" that Bush & Co. committed vast election fraud last year. In fact, the evidence in Fooled Again is both abundant and precise; whereas Manjoo's review itself presents no evidence to back its central accusation. "Miller's many suggestions of fraud dissolve under close scrutiny," writes Manjoo--who then comes up with just one trivial and dubious example: my passing reference to a certain fishy bloc of pro-Bush ballots cast (or not) in Ohio's Miami County on Election Day. Manjoo treats this mere aside as if it were the basis of my argument, devoting two whole paragraphs to a laborious rebuttal. Meanwhile, he cites none of the extensive evidence that Fooled Again includes.

Indeed, Manjoo himself admits the comprehensiveness of my research: "To make his case, Miller cites hundreds of news accounts, online reports and videos, and postings from sites like Democratic Underground." And yet your readers could not know that Fooled Again includes, along with such a careful overview, much new information on Bush/Cheney's global frauds, from the computerized purge of Democratic voters from the rolls in Summit and Stark Counties in Ohio, to the pre-election break-ins at Democratic offices in Akron and Toledo (the thieves stole only those computers that contained election data), to the myriad statewide drives to disenfranchise black, Hispanic and Native American voters, to the stealthy criminal shenanigans of Sproul and Associates, which deftly disenfranchised countless would-be Kerry voters in at least half a dozen states across the country (a ploy that cost the RNC over 8 million dollars), to Bush/Cheney's grand subversion of the huge vote cast, or intended, by Americans abroad (a stroke that likely disappeared at least two million Kerry votes). The evidence of all such perfidy, and plenty more, is solid, copious and easily available, despite Manjoo's bizarre insistence that there's nothing there. (Indeed, I found some of that evidence in his own pre-election writings, which is why I thank him warmly on p. 349 of Fooled Again.)

Manjoo tries to build his case by lauding Mark Hertsgaard's attempt, in the latest issue of Mother Jones, to cast doubt on the "theory" that Bush/Cheney stole the election in Ohio. (Manjoo repeats Hertsgaard's canard that Fooled Again deals mainly with the fraud committed in that state.) I take no pleasure in reporting it, as Hertsgaard is an old friend of mine, but that piece too is full of holes. Those points of his that Manjoo finds especially compelling are in fact untenable.

First, Hertsgaard avers that Sherole Eaton, a Democratic whistle-blower in Ohio's Hocking County, told him that she really "{doesn't} know if there was fraud" committed there--a claim that Eaton has indignantly denied. (Her words were taken out of context, she complained to Mother Jones: "I suggest that you assign someone else to write an article on the same subject without any slant.") Manjoo also seconds Hertsgaard's argument that there was certainly no fraud in Warren County--where a sudden "terrorist alert" allowed officials to eject reporters from the premises before the votes were counted. (Warren was among the last Ohio counties to report their tallies on Election Night.) Hertsgaard bases his contention on the say-so of "a Democrat" who told him that that "terrorist alert" was not suspicious. But Hertsgaard fails to note the FBI's denial, on Nov. 3, that there had really been a terrorist alert, nor does he tell us that the plan to sound that false alarm had been in place for some nine days. (Both stories were reported in the Cincinatti Enquirer.) Hertsgaard also fails to mention two eyewitnesses who claim that, after the "alert," ballots were improperly diverted to an unofficial storage site managed by a GOP operative. (Hertsgaard was told about those witnesses by attorney Bob Fitrakis, but evidently did not try to reach them.)

Both Manjoo and Hertsgaard have dismissed my book as an extended exercise in wishful thinking by a diehard partisan, portraying themselves as skeptical, hard-headed journalists, devoted only to "the facts." But it is they who are the partisans; for in their staunch refusal to perceive the glaring evidence of fraud, they are merely echoing the tense accommodationism of the over-cautious Democratic Party. In other words, they claim to see "no story" in last year's race because the Democrats (with all too few exceptions) claim there isn't one--a sort of faith-based journalism every bit as dangerous as the kind that has us fighting in Iraq. Surely we must base our civic conduct on reality itself, and not on what the stars of either party claim "reality" to be.

This brings me, finally, to John Kerry's role in the far right's ongoing struggle for dominion. Manjoo begins his rant with a sarcastic take on the brief controversy over my exchange with Kerry, in Manhattan on Oct. 28, on the theft of the 2004 election. Manjoo hints that I was lying about Kerry's claim that he believes the race was stolen, as Kerry's office had denied we ever had that conversation (and, of course, whatever Kerry says is true). If Manjoo were a less partisan reporter, he would have noted Robert Parry's article, posted on Consortiumnews.com on Oct. 29, revealing that Jonathan Winer, a longtime adviser to the senator, confirms that Kerry has suspected all along that last year's race was stolen, but never said so, fearing general ridicule. "'The powers in place would have smashed him,' Winer said."

But this is not about John Kerry's image, any more than it's about the sales of Fooled Again, or about Salon's political position, or Farhad Manjoo's or Mark Hertsgaard's career. It's about the mammoth threat confronting this republic, which will not last if we continue to ignore the scandal of last year's election. If anyone should be attacked, it's those extremists who conspire against American democracy, and not those citizens who try totalk about it.

-Mark Crispin Miller



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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thank goodness for MCM.
... what a sad commentary on Hertsgaard, Kerry, Manjoo, and others...
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It's inexplicable
If our Democratic leaders want to keep their jobs they had better get a grip on this issue.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Sadly, due to gerrymandering and cronies in the party structure,
I doubt they have that much to fear. Maybe mass numbers of Dem voters switching to the green party, but they don't even have to fear that, really.
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ReadTomPaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
48. I'm not a fan of Manjoo.
They passed over some excellent, highly qualified technology reporters to get and keep this guy. If you saw the list they skipped over for this unknown writer and his dubious skills, you'd be as mystified as the people I spoke with at or involved with Salon regarding his selection.

He's got an inside patron keeping him in place and feeding him stories, that much is clear.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Well, tell them that they lost a lot of subscribers over his articles.
I was almost a day 1 subscriber and I canceled when he started this crap a few months ago.

The receptionist was so upset at the calls, she asked me to talk to the guy and let him have it. I said I'd wasted enough time with them but thanks anyway.

What a bunch of losers! Shame, they could have been the best. I still remember the expose on Henry Hyde's affairs. That had a major influence on the whole process (not as much as the Livingston stuff...Hustler wasn't it?).

You filled in an important gap. Thanks.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Her'es a tinyurl for the Salon-posted response above
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. thanks!
is my link not working?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Your link works just fine but for emailing it around tinyurl is best
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you, Mark.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. I stand with Mark Crispin Miller -
Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 05:44 PM by IndyOp
If I had to choose between John & Mark, I stand with Mark.
If I had to choose between Farhad & Mark, I stand with Mark.
If I had to choose between Hertsgaard & Mark, I stand with Mark.

Mark Crispin Miller has courage - courage of the sort we need in our leaders.

Thank you for posting this Stephanie!

:kick:

On Edit: I am eagerly awaiting delivery of "Fooled Again" -- I will post on DU when I discover good stuff in the book!
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. K&R !!
Amen to that!

BTW if you can't prove that fraud didnt happen, we better assume that it did.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. I think we had better all adopt what Moochy said as our sig lines...
"if you can't prove that fraud didn't happen, we better assume that it did."

That about sums it up Mooch!

You don't mind if I call you Mooch do you? ;)
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Thanks I read it somewhere
Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 07:30 PM by Moochy
It's about confidence in the electoral system right? :shrug:

If people think "they are all crooks" and stay away from the polls, Cui Bono? Who benefits?

Republicans.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I am with you IndyOp
I stand with Mark!

and thanks Stephanie! :hi:
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. Here are some additional supporting links
that perhaps are part of what MCM is referring to:

Election Forum (responding to Manjoo's critical book review):

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=401618&mesg_id=401618>

On deconstructing Hertsgaard's claim regarding New Hampshire's recount, where Hertsgaard pretends that a recount resolved an issue of some sort (other problems revealed by Time for Change in the thread):

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=203&topic_id=401123&mesg_id=401123>

Also, don't forget (it's cited in Mark's book) that Teresa Heinz Kerry in the SEattle P-I expressed very deep skepticism about the fairness of the electronic election, optical scanners in particular, in a Joel Connelly column early in 2005. see www.seattlepi.com
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. kick...
:kick:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. He didn't say you never had that conversation, Mr Miller
He didn't say word for word what you said he said however. The only thing true in your account, he said, was that you gave him a book.

"You were robbed, Senator"

"I know"

should never have turned into "John Kerry now admits that he thinks the election was stolen."

To be kind, I'll say that you were trying to push election fraud. However, you can't decide to drag people into the sunlight who ain't goin'.

Furthermore, I'm still trying to figure out why folks refer to you as a journalist. Professor, okay. Auther, okay. Journalist? A JOURNALIST would have sat down with Kerry and gotten an interview. A JOURNALIST would not have reported party chat as if it were well researched news.

I suspect, sir, that you have an ego big as Baltimore. You got a bad review. The horror. Get over it and learn to accept criticism.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Don't pretend that the Kerry's don't think there's evidence: link below
<http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/214744_joel07.html?searchpagefrom=1&searchdiff=261>

Teresa "openly skeptical" about election; fears for 2006, reported in Seattle Post-Intelligencer
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. I agree that kerry knows about election fraud but also believe that he
Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 07:27 PM by blm
has another route to break it open and didn't need any public talk about what he knows at this point.

The clue to that was Parry's interview with Jon Winer. If Winer is talking about machine fraud then that is GREAT news. He's an ACE investigator specializing in information security.

He helped Kerry uncover IranContra and BCCI. Whatever Winer knows Kerry knows.

I think Kerry just didn't want Miller making a bigger story out of it because it can prove detrimental to their work to expose the machines before 2008. The media has ways of neutralizing efforts like this using half-baked stories. As in - not ready to be digested.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. I agree. These elections and machines are fearfull things. We will
all read our fears into them. It is speculation. And remember how far off our speculation was on the Fitz inditements?

I worry the GOP is using massive lack of transparency as a wedge for us dems. And to teach new forms of apathy.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. According to Miller, the conversation went way beyond your quotes:
New York University professor and author Mark Crispin Miller says in an interview on Democracy Now!: “ told me he now thinks the election was stolen. He says he doesn't believe he is the person that can be out in front because of the sour grapes question. But he said he believes it was stolen. He says he argues with his democratic colleagues on the hill. He said he had a fight with Christopher Dodd because he said there's questions about the voting machines and Dodd was angry.”

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/04/1532222&mode=thread&tid=25

I just don't think Mark would lie about such a thing - and we have yet to have Kerry personally say what was said.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Not to mention, it fits Dodd to a tee.
It also fits Kerry's m.o. of keeping everything politically "safe."
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. But that's exactly what Miller is calling Kerry.
I don't think Miller lied. I think he exaggerated.

Here is what Miller said on DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=399775&mesg_id=399790
"Kerry's statement was not planned. He did not expect to see me.
His sister, Peggy Kerry, purposely invited me to that fundraiser so
that I could hand the senator a copy of my book. (She too understands
the urgency of getting the top Democrats to push the issue of
electoral reform.)

So I spoke briefly with him just as he arrived, and handed him the
book, saying, "You were robbed, Senator." He said, "I know!" with
a clear gesture of extreme frustration, and then said that he can't get
any of his colleagues on the Hill to face the issue. Said that he had
lately had an argument about it with Chris Dodd, who didn't want to
hear about it. Kerry tried to tell him about all the problems with the
electronic touch-screen machines, but Dodd refused to listen, saying
that he had looked into it, and that "there's nothing there." (In bringing
the subject up with Dodd, Kerry was not influenced by the GAO report,
which he didn't even know about until I mentioned it to him. Indeed, he seemed mightily impressed that the GAO had come out with a strong
report.)


I did not mean to insinuate that more was not said. But for Miller to turn "You wuz robbed, Senator" "I know!" into "Kerry now says that he believes that the election was stolen" is alittle wobbley.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #27
47. more from MCM on this >



Mark Crispin Miller: My exchange with Kerry

Fri Nov-04-05 12:07 PM

Kerry's statement was not planned. He did not expect to see me.
His sister, Peggy Kerry, purposely invited me to that fundraiser so
that I could hand the senator a copy of my book. (She too understands
the urgency of getting the top Democrats to push the issue of
electoral reform.)

So I spoke briefly with him just as he arrived, and handed him the
book, saying, "You were robbed, Senator." He said, "I know!" with
a clear gesture of extreme frustration, and then said that he can't get
any of his colleagues on the Hill to face the issue. Said that he had
lately had an argument about it with Chris Dodd, who didn't want to
hear about it. Kerry tried to tell him about all the problems with the
electronic touch-screen machines, but Dodd refused to listen, saying
that he had looked into it, and that "there's nothing there."
(In bringing the subject up with Dodd, Kerry was not influenced by
the GAO report, which he didn't even know about until I mentioned
it to him. Indeed, he seemed mightily impressed that the GAO had
come out with a strong report.)

I urged him to spearhead a major senatorial investigation into what
went down last year, in the spirit of his best work in that chamber,
when he led inquiries into Iran/contra and BCCI. He said that, given
his position, he doubts that he can be the one to go out front about
the issue, because of the "sour grapes" factor. I appreciate his
dilemma, but still think that he must embrace the issue of electoral
reform, for the country's sake. (I also think that it would be the only
way in which he might redeem himself for his deplorable concession just
a year ago.)

Believe me, I understand, and share, your feelings of impatience
at the senator's long silence (which, again, he certainly would not
have broken if I hadn't happened to bump into him). But if he'll
champion the issue of electoral reform, we stand to gain much more
than we can get from merely cursing him for his timidity. I therefore
would advise you all to shower him with strong encouragement ASAP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5264692

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. That's a bit harsh, wouldn't you say?
It's not content free, nor blind, skepticism is almost always healthy, and I'm quite certain the poster's skepticism won't "fatally bite" any candidate, unless the poster happens to be running for something....WTF is up with that attack?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Oh, just a tad
Thanks, and exactly.

I'd have something to say if Dean or Clark were misquoted, or taken out of context, or if an attempt was being made to force them into a position where they didn't think they belonged.

And I've already heard the likes of Hannity refer to Kerry as being "a kook like Gore." Something must happen to candidates after they lose elections. They go nuts. He took Miller's word as gospel and ignored Kerry's denial.

So it begins.

The struggle should continue. But Kerry does NOT belong out front. And I don't appreciate Miller trying to drag him out there.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #41
52. Wow, Hannity really carries a lot of weight - with the 600k viewers.
Clarkie,cool it. Nobody watches cable news (1.6 mil max at peak Faux hour, size of San Antonio, TX maybe).

The election was a giant rip off, Kerry was elected, his wife knows and says so. Kerry is a very cautious guy, which is fine. But don't trash MCM. Kerry's denial was through a press secretary and it was a hedge. Relax on MCM and get motivated to stop the fraud in 2006. Look at Ohio's special election. Blackwell stole it outright where he wanted to--ballot Issues 2 & 3 lead in the highly respected (because it's highly accurate) Columbus Dispatch poll (by 20-30%)and two days later lose by 20-30%. Even the quisling who defend the Bush victory can't take up that cause--these are 40-50% spreads against a poll with a margin of error of 2.5%. Professional journals have articles on this newspaper poll because of its accuracy. Blackwell just stole that with his near 100% Diebold network. It's real, sorry, the elections in this country are a joke. Want to win, get busy with you party (try NH too, that was a joke in 2004, people are in jail for election fraud there).
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Just fed up, that's all.
Maybe the other poster didn't deserve that. In fact, I apologize to LittleClarkie.

But Kerry's CALIBRATION here is way beyond what's needed.

Election fraud is getting to be common knowledge - so common that Jay Leno even joked about it. Yet "our" Democrats won't admit to it and won't face up to it.

As for Chris Dodd, he's a traitorous piece of shit.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Thank you. I don't doubt that Mark's motives are pure
I just don't think it's for him to decide how and when Kerry presents himself on this issue, no matter how frustrated he may be with the Senator.

It shows that Mark doesn't have a whole ton of respect for the guy. Might explain the negative reaction from Kerr and his staff.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #45
54. Yeah, why should Kerry stand up for truth and justice on this issue.
He's above it all, and his decisions should be honored.

Just keep telling yourself that we will be safe from the facists when their victory is complete.

Your perspective scares the crap out of me. No offense intented, but I really am scared of these people. Really. Not trying to score any debating points, just scared is all.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. If John Kerry really wanted to
blow this open, he'd hold a press conference, show the evidence, bring in the experts, and make the front-page of every newspaper. That's the way to expose corruption. He wouldn't do it in an off-hand remark to a man he'd never met before. That kind of second-hand remark is easy for the right-wingers to dismiss, makes him look afraid to speak for himself, and could diminish the force of a real public expose in the future. I don't think Kerry ever thought Miller would go to the press with this & is probably disappointed that he did.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
14. Here's Teresa Heinz Kerry on Election Fraud, in the Corp Media
Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 06:16 PM by Land Shark
on edit, fixed link

In March 2005 Teresa Heinz Kerry was in Seattle for an event and was quoted as being "openly skeptical" about the election result at a fundraiser in Seattle

<http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/214744_joel07.html?searchpagefrom=1&searchdiff=261>

The election part starts 10-12 paragraphs down and says in part (four paragraphs only):

COUNTING THE VOTES: Heinz Kerry is openly skeptical about results from November's election, particularly in sections of the country where optical scanners were used to record votes.

"Two brothers own 80 percent of the machines used in the United States," Heinz Kerry said. She identified both as "hard-right" Republicans. She argued that it is "very easy to hack into the mother machines."

"We in the United States are not a banana republic," added Heinz Kerry. She argued that Democrats should insist on "accountability and transparency" in how votes are tabulated.

"I fear for '06," she said. "I don't trust it the way it is right now."

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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. Salon and Mother Jones...
Still policing the left, are they? Does that help sell subscriptions to ex-lefty SUV-land?

Those tired of unadventurous reads like the above should check out the far more spirited and consistently insightful Counterpunch.com.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Don't forget NPR and driveway moments in "ex-lefty SUV-land"...
:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
42. I don't need somebody being "adventurous" with the news
Twisting it every which way from Sunday to fit their theories.

I'm sorry, but I consider Counterpunch to be the Newsmax of the left.

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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #42
64. I'm with you on that. Can't abide either Counterpunch or
CommonDreams.

I think too that people are forgetting that John Kerry WAS A PROSECUTOR, and a damned good one. I have no doubt he and his investigators are working behind the scenes, gathering evidence, and like another skilled prosecutor who's been raked over the coals here recently, Kerry will "indict" when his case is airtight and not a minute before.

Unfortunately, while Kerry and Miller should be natural allies, neither is a natural politician, so for Miller to trumpet his private conversation with Kerry, and for Kerry's press office then to deny that Kerry said what Miller claims he said, are both acts of such stupifying political idiocy that I really do despair for this party and this country.

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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. Manjoo and his convoluted, partisan arguments about the sElection
are the reason I no longer subscribe to Salon.
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WiseButAngrySara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. What an eye-opener! It's unbelievable that so few Dems refute what
appears to be overwhelming evidence of voter fraud. It has been obvious to me since about a year ago, proven to me on DU boards. Why are they so recalcitrant to accepting what may well be the demise of Democracy as we know it?

Both Manjoo and Hertsgaard have dismissed my book as an extended exercise in wishful thinking by a diehard partisan, portraying themselves as skeptical, hard-headed journalists, devoted only to "the facts." But it is they who are the partisans; for in their staunch refusal to perceive the glaring evidence of fraud, they are merely echoing the tense accommodationism of the over-cautious Democratic Party. In other words, they claim to see "no story" in last year's race because the Democrats (with all too few exceptions) claim there isn't one--a sort of faith-based journalism every bit as dangerous as the kind that has us fighting in Iraq. Surely we must base our civic conduct on reality itself, and not on what the stars of either party claim "reality" to be.

:kick: and Recommended! and Thanks Stephanie
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thanks Stephanie!
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
20. Recommended.
Peace.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
21. Uggh. Still being labeled as conspiracy theorists I see
I wonder if Manjoo bothered to look at the GAO report.

Oh never mind. He'd just pooh-pooh that too because it doesn't fit with his view of the world.
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. "Conspiracy" law-breaking by 2 or more; 'theory' idea/explanation --
Edited on Tue Nov-22-05 07:28 PM by IndyOp
we've got to educate others and break through this 'conspiracy theory' crap -- there are conspiracies happening in our world 24/7 (some political, some not) and smart people have ideas/explanations about those conspiracies.

Watergate was a conspiracy theory until evidence became widely accepted.

Iran-Contra was a conspiracy theory until evidence became widely accepted.

The idea that the * administration lied about WMD's to carry out an unprovoked attack on Iraq was a conspiracy theory until evidence became widely accepted.

I say let's EMBRACE what they think is an epithet:

Conspiracy theorist. :-)
Conspiracy theorist. :bounce:
Conspiracy theorist. :hi:
Conspiracy theorist. :yourock:
Conspiracy theorist. :headbang:
Conspiracy theorist. :toast:
Conspiracy theorist. :loveya:

John Kerry did not fight for our votes because he might have been called a 'conspiracy theorist' -- FREAKIN 'A people -- let's go back to a key grade school lesson: Sticks-and-stones may break my bones, but names will NEVER hurt me. (Of course, this is only true, if you BELIEVE it).
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Breaking thru conspiracy theory crap: See this...breakthrough starting...
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Not to mention the Conyers report, and Chris Hitchen's article....
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Exactly. All fact-based resources with real-life examples.
Book reviewers aren't journalists so they don't have to actually research their topic. They just give impressions.

What is it that they say about critics?

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philly_bob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
34. I let my Salon sub expire because of their clueless election coverage...
and I told them so.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #34
46. Oh I dunno. I kinda dig Joe Conason
He's always a good read.
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
35. I am a big admirer of MCM, my only gripe is that if Kerry told him
"in confidence"-as has been reported-of his belief that the 2004 election was stolen-then he should have kept that conversation confidential. If the conversation was in fact confidential, once Miller divulged it Kerry had no choice but to deny what was said. I can't believe Kerry would have told him that for publication.
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freedomfries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. thanks for posting Stephanie
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Stephanie??? Did you mean to reply to the OP?
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. I think Miller was trying to decide FOR Kerry how Kerry should deal
with the issue. I don't get the feeling he has much respect for Kerry. Hence, he tried to force Kerry to do what he thought Kerry should be doing.

But I'm not sure why people refer to Miller as a journalist. Isn't he a professor, and an author? When was he a journalist?

I don't think that a journalist would have pulled such a stunt. "You wuz robbed" "I know" isn't exactly the same as "Kerry now believes the election was stolen."
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #40
53. Wow You Don't Let Up Do You?
You got a nice apology up thread but you can't help yourself. Are you Kerry's Mom?
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Mark_Crispin_Miller Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
59. My chat with Kerry wasn't off the record.
If our exchange was confidential, I was not aware of it. I came to him explicitly as an American concerned about the state of our electoral system. And as for disrespecting Kerry, I approached him in good faith and with high hopes——and let me add that I had great respect for Kerry AT THAT MOMENT. It was precisely his forthrightness that impressed me most. It gave me heart.

Note too that I did not run out and publicize it; I didn't post it on my blog, or spam it all around. I told some of my friends and family, then began to tell the story publicly on my book tour four days later. I brought it up on "Democracy Now!" because Mark Hertsgaard, in trying to debunk the "theory" of election fraud, made so much of what certain Democrats had told him. So I figured, "I can quote a major Democrat, if that's what it will take to make this case."

The rest is history.

Why is Kerry's posture, or my conduct, an issue here? Let's keep our eyes on the ball, shall we?

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Hear, hear! "Let's keep our eyes on the ball, shall we?" nt
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #35
65. Yes, exactly. I'm sure Kerry was appalled that Miller
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 10:54 AM by LandOLincoln
would reveal what was clearly a private conversation the way he did.

I can't even begin to imagine going public with a private conversation without the explicit permission of the person being quoted.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-22-05 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
44. Excellent! k/r
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
49. Great post Stephanie. Great response MCM!
Just keep telling the truth. We will prevail.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
51. The thing about having the truth on your side
is that you've already won. It's just a matter of waiting for your opponents to fully realize their devastation.

lol

Great response!

Thanks, Stephanie.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. Did you see this?
Edited on Wed Nov-23-05 11:55 AM by Stephanie


Challenger to Seek Detroit Mayor Recount

By DAVID RUNK, Associated Press Writer Tue Nov 22,10:29 PM ET

DETROIT - Challenger Freman Hendrix on Tuesday announced he will ask for a hand recount of votes from the Detroit mayoral election, which he lost earlier this month to incumbent Kwame Kilpatrick.

Hendrix said he wants the recount partly because of problems in getting results from some precincts after the polls closed and changes between initial and final vote totals.

***

Following the vote, officials reported that at 17 of the city's 720 precincts test votes weren't cleared from tabulating machines before actual votes were cast, leading to some changes in the totals.

And eight precincts weren't included in the initial vote counts because information from computer data packs containing voting results wasn't properly delivered to the Detroit city clerk's office, state elections officials have said.

In one example given Tuesday, Hendrix said that when information from the missing data packs — containing about 2,300 votes in the mayor's race — was added to overall results, the vote totals jumped by more than 8,500 votes.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051123/ap_on_re_us/detroit_mayor_4



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. What are they going to recount?!
In CA, el Gran Grope has appointed a Blackwell-style Sec of State. He's trying to ram Diebold certification through.

I find out that on Monday, he wasn't even in attendence at the fake hearing he called for citizen input. He didn't even bother to show up.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. second that! perfect. nt
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merkins Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
57. Farhad Manjoo did a hitjob on Krugman earlier...
Daily Howler has the scoop on Farhad Manjoo's cheapshots trying to derail Krugman:

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh060405.shtml

Man and to think a year ago I was a daily reader of Salon..
So long sweetheart its been swell knowing you..
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. thanks for that!
I sent it to Mark.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. That's a good disection of a very slanted piece by Manjoo. Thanks for
posting it.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
66. kick
:kick:
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