is anyone else bothered by Clark's "New American Patriotism"?

I really don't see a difference between Clark defining patriotism and the GOP doing it.

and this rubs me wrong too:

Clark for President announced today that it has organized a National Day of Service on Saturday, October 18. Local Clark Corps volunteer chapters will be performing service projects across the country to improve their communities, and commemorate Wesley Clark's lifelong commitment to public service.

"...and commemorate Wesley Clark's lifelong commitment to public service."

If a lifetime in the military isn't public service, what is? Why the empahasis on those last words?

I just think it's a bit crass to ask supporters to commemorate this service.

loyalty to your guy that you look for bad when there is none. A Clark supporter can VOLUNTEER or not. Those who do are happy to do it. Sometimes we need an inspiration or just a kick in the butt to do something for others.

Of course others sit on their ass all day long and bitch and moan.

my issue is with the word "patriotism"… not the community service aspect.

I think it's you who is blinded by your loyalty and unable to see the forest for the trees.

and I have never started a negative thread about any candidate or said one bad thing about another candidate except one time I called DK a gnat. You on the otherhand are consistently bring up lame attempts to smear Clark.

"Forest for the trees"....lol...how trite.

I was trying to start an honest debate about the use of the word "patriotism" for political gain.

that's all.

Considering your history of Anti-Clark posts. I have no problem with people having objections to Clark, and I respect their right to dissenting opinions. But your statement that you're not trying to smear Clark and only want an honest debate of "patriotism" rings false in light of your other anti-Clark posts that have nothing to do with the patriotism question.

thank you.

I don't have a star next to my name and thus am not able to run a forum search. Your name does sound familiar, along with Pastiche, Stickdog and others. If I'm in error, please accept my apologies.

I have never set out to bash/smear any candidate other than Lieberman.

however, I'm sure there are plenty of people here who would say otherwise.

I've made a point of not going into other candidate bashing threads. And I've even gone into threads and encouraged people to keep supporting their (non-clark) candidates. Unfortunately, the Stop Clark Brigade doesn't feel the same. They number around ten, and you'll know who they are if you hang around here.

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and when you're done chewing, please tell me what patriotism is, mom/dad.

I'm a patriot, dammit. What's your problem with patriotism?

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ain't they. ;-)

fucking vet you better have something to back that up. When was the last time you offered to DIE for your country?

Next to that, I'll accept Wes Clarks definition of patriotism which included as it's most important element - reasoned dialoge and dissent.

So nice of you to call someone an asshole because they define themselves as a patriot.

The right has been beating us over the head with what they call patriotism. The point of Clark's new patriotism is a return to real patriotism. It is an attempt to take away this club that the fascist have been using to brain us. Your suspicion of all things patriot is one of the reasons the right is able to do this.

I have a feeling that clark's winning potential is in getting a range of voters that i am so wholly disgusted by, i would never consider catering to... per your sentiments exactly... but is that a winning strategy? I think clark's direct contraposition to the BFEE's patriotism for the masses of people who want a "dear leader" really may be an election winner.

America is increasingly like the soviet union, and people want a big baddie general to order things so they can feel "lead". It is good for him as it keeps him center-right of us... and likely where the median winning votes are in a security-election where the contested states are so brainwashed that they think shrub is a hero.

In realpolitik, clark is a winner. Remember that the average american watches 4.5 hours of TV per day and has a 6th grade education... a new patriotism to oppose mental-illness-patriotism may be the very medicine these folks need. The last time i did community service, i felt pretty good for it. Its not so bad.

n/t

People who love their country?

Your problem is that you don't know what patriotism is. You've seen jingoism and chauvinism and nationalism, and you think that patriotism is the same thing. It is not.

I suspect that Clark's "market" are people like you who have no clue what patriotism is. The "new patriotism" is not brainless, flag-waving jingoism. Bush is not a patriot. The brainless twits who cheered our invasion of Iraq to get revenge for September 11 are not patriots.

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but you do make the DLC seem rather appealing and I am not particularly fond of the DLC.

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"America is a stupid country of very stupid people."

If that's true, then true democracy/republican government cannot function here. There can be no government "of the people, by the people, and for the people" if the people are incapable of governing themselves. So we might as well abandon it to the fascists and move to Canada, eh?

"PAtriotism is a jingoism of flag waving... it really is... and that is all it is."

NO IT IS NOT. That's what the Repugs want you to believe; that's what they've made it into, but THAT'S NOT WHAT IT IS.

(Note to self: Start a thread later today on patriotism: What it is, what it isn't.)

"If it is something more for you or me, then that is a private thing, and should not enter in to winning an election."

True patriotism gets to the heart of liberalism, community, and democracy. Without it, there is no liberalism, no community, no democracy. There's just "every man for himself." Representative government depends on REAL patriotism to exist. Once again, your "solution" is to abandon the U.S. to the nazis.

"I myself cancelled my presence at the windows on the world meeting on sept 11 2001 in world trade 1, to focus on european product marketing.... and hence i am still alive to talk to you today... so spare me the high ground. Maha, great one."

And I watched the towers collapse from the upper floors of a high-rise about a mile north. Great day, huh? So spare me the whining.

"i'm a kucinich voter."

Of course you are.

you're coming off a tad on the elitist side BTW, just wondering what you had to back this up.

you mean 4.5 hours per day per american of televison watching... that is common knowledge... geez.. BBC, wall street journal.. i don't remember which.. all of them have put up this stat... it is no state secret... and the average education level is rather obvious also by the very fact that shrub is president.

face it, america is a country of stupid ignorant people who do lettle else but watch TV and think of themselves. It's harsh, and not very patriotic to say so so cuttingly, but then that is the idea on a free speech forum of propaganists. I think clark's strategy of service to the community gets people out of their cocoon of fear and selfishness.. and were we in a more religious culture, perhaps these folks' religion' would do the trick.. but as they are injecting cable TV every day, that is not an option... good for Mr. Clark... he's doing the right thing by getting the centre off their asses and showing that he's driving a opposition patriotism more effective than the in-power murder-patriotism.

I am being elitist, because america is a stupid country, and i'm sick of pretending it is in any way smart. Nothing intelligent is happening in american public life anymore.... sadly, but not unexpected.

My statistics are very sound. I don't remember the sources... surely you can find one if you give a shit... the wsj claimed in teh early 90's that 7 hours per day was the aemrican average.

Based on the republican language and media profiling, the average education level seems actually below 6th grade... more like 4th or so. Indeed, i am more than a tad elitist. Americans are stupid ignorant people on average... not a theory unfortunately... unless you have not met them.

But I don't remember the sources.

OK

:puffpiece:

http://www.clark04.com/speeches/005/

"This patriotism recognizes that democracy demands discussion, disagreement, and dissent. There is a nothing more American - nothing more patriotic -- than speaking out, questioning authority, and holding your leaders accountable."

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The poster's identiy and comment has been removed by the mods, so I don't know who it is. But to attack Paidrag, one of the few Dean supporters I respect, goes beyond the pale. If the attacker was another Dean supporter, that's even worse. It means the Stop Clark Brigade is attacking their own people just to bring down Clark. And that is despicable and desperate.

Paidrag supports Dean, and although we don't always agree, I respect Paidrag as a good person. The Stop Clark Brigade has stooped to a new low, when they started attacking Paidrag.

to read the deleted poster's comment but any attack on anybody who respectfully supports their candidate without bashing another is indefensible. I am a Dean supporter and Clark is number two on my list because I see great potential for both and feel that either candidate would be a better president than the current resident of the White House.

The fact that General Clark is a military man with intelligence and humanity is an advantage and the Democrats should be thankful to have such talent on our side.

There are other Dean supporters who I don't see eye to eye with and some that I do. A few hardline Kerry and Clark supporters have been downright obnoxious in their Dean bashing---but I just chalk it up to politics as usual.

I don't want to bash anybody and as Democrats I don't think we should be bashing our own group of candidates. One of them will be picked next July or August to run against Bush and we need to be behind him/her 100% if we expect to take back the White House.

It's easy to say things in the heat of an argument and to respond in kind but that's not going to get us anywhere.

the idea that maybe someone realizes that "patriotism" and "honor to thy country" are going to be HUGE campaign issues next year.

i don't think he'll do anything to alienate too many people. it's all just a enormous political game right now.

he's trying to defuse the GOP myth that the Democratic party is nothing but a bunch of weak, ineffective Americans who hate their country more than Osama bin Laden.

personally, this is one of the candidates that i'm looking into a little closer.

:hi:

And that's the problem. To Clark it's just an enormous game. He would have been playing for the other team if they would have had him.

I'm sure the Republicans are thrilled you took their bait so readily.

DTH

Do you deny that Clark spoke at a republican fund raiser?
Do you deny that he said that he would be Republican if Karl Rove had returned his calls?
Do you deny that he praised the current administration?
Do you deny that he wasn't a registered Democrat until very recently?
Do you deny that he voted for Reagan?
Do you deny that he voted for Nixon?

You can't refute the accusations so you attack the messenger.....

Good for you!

1) No, but you ignore that he spoke at a Democratic fundraiser right after it.

2) Yes, because he was joking. Spinsanity has more information on this, but they seem to be having issues today.

3) No. And I don't think being nice is a bad thing.

4) No. Nor do I deny that that's not unusual in Arkansas.

5) No, because he said he did.

6) No, because he said he did; Do you deny that he voted for Clinton, Clinton, and Gore? Because you've got the same evidentiary standard.

I just deny that it means what you would like it to mean.

it's about marketing and strategy and public image and poll results and kissing babies and smiling pretty and telling people what they want to hear.

realize that and focus on the rhetoric. if you listen close enough, you'll learn to hear through the bullshit and learn what they're about.

I think that Clark is in it FOR the game. I don't think he cares which team he plays for as long as he wins. I don't think Clark is in it for the Democratic party. I don't think Clark is in it for the country. I think that Clark is in it for Clark.

I have yet to see anything that convinces me that Clark is sincere. And this, to me , looks like nothing more then emotional manipulation.

Of course I could be wrong and if he does get the nomination I'll support him. He's not my first choice or second or third or even fourth....

he said so himself. But more primarily, he is
in it for all Americans. This I believe.

I think the dude just loves his country. Period.

I believe he cares about the COUNTRY, and that includes Democrats, Republicans, Independents---everybody. He didn't jump right in because he wanted to give it a lot of thought before committing himself. I hardly think that's an indication of opportunism and arrogance.

You are just making assumptions about Clark without giving him a chance to prove himself.

Don't be so quick to judge without seeing how his campaign plays out.

The fact is, both "teams" courted him, and he chose the Democrats. This makes sense, as he's a liberal.

Exactly what is your problem?

If Clark wanted to "play for the other team" as you put it, they would have welcomed him with open arms. His open criticism of the Bush administration when he was a military analyst for CNN was an indication, to me, that his idealogy was closer aligned to the Democratic party.

You've been listening to Republican talking points if you believe that he became a Democrat because Rove didn't return his phone calls. That is a bunch of B.S.

Clark is his own man and nobody had to twist his arm to be a Democrat. Before officially letting anyone know what party he was affiliated with he was essentially non-partisan as military officers traditionally are supposed to be.

Believe what you want but if you do a little objective research on Clark you will find that he is a man of principle and does what he thinks is right even if he has to go against the powers that be.

He's playing right into it!

Din't learn well enough how playing into the GOP myth helped us in the mid terms?

I am so fucking sick and tired of Democrats wanting, nay, DESIRING to play by the GOP rules!

Go ahead, let the GOP continue to create the rules. We will never turn our country around.

I'm sure that won't come as much of a surprise to my many detractors.

:bounce:

We want to co-opt their rules, take the symbols they use as weapons, make them our own and throw them back in their faces.

It's all the same.

I am ashamed that some Democrats do not have confidence in their own party.

Patriotism is not something you have to co-opt. It comes from inside. It is how you, personally, feel about your country. It does not have to be shouted. It is not something you have to do in front of others. You do not have to prove your patriotism to ANYONE.

Of course, you can claim the highground and be like Alex Cockburn or Noam Chomsky and have a marginal effect on shaping American policy or you could actually engage the current climate, which is just a tad nationalistic, and reframe the debate from discouraging criticism into that of dissent being patriotic. Youre making a moral argument against a political one, and if you disagree with the latter show practical alternatives.

Personally, i dont differentiate between patriotism and jingoism since i think they are both the same subjective concept based on loyalty to artificial structures, but that shit aint gonna fly when you're stumping in Des Moines.

Patriotism is something that you feel - a pride in nation and country. We do have a lot to be proud of in this country - and personally I think the democrats have a hell of a lot more to be proud of than the pubs. So do I feel upset when a pub can wrap himself in a flag and brand build from MY country to his sick and twisted political agenda? hell yes.

If I were a pub I'd be terrified by Clark's message - it says Americans aren't going to sit idly by while people wrap themselves in a sacred element of our society for crass political agendas. I'd be terrified that the same thing is going to happen to christianity - and good christian socialists will be MORE CHRISTIAN than the baptist holier than thous... and throw that whole brotherhood of man thing back in their greedy mammon-worshipping faces.

Clark has the potential to represent a turning point - where the middle says NO MORE and the pubs, who have overreached a great deal, are left so far out on a limb that they are finally seen as the crackpot party they are.

We recognize the fact that our country is on a terrible path and that so many of us yearn to do something constructive to heal it.

It's the same yearning, I think, that generates passion in Dean and Kucinich supporters.

We are reinvigorating the concept of patriotism and community service that made John F. Kennedy's inauguration speech so stirring: "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

"Our country" meaning the great, diverse community that is the U.S., my parents' generation, who are aging and getting ill now; the tattered inner city school systems; the crumbling infrastructure, and the yearning of so many of us to roll up our sleeves, pitch in and do something to help fix the many problems we have.

Yes, it's an alternative to the shrill RW that screams: "Liberals hate America." We are trying to get beyond the polarization that exists in our nation and refocus Americans on the common and constructive goal of healing our nation.

is a FREAKING GAME to a person who gave almost 4 decades of their LIFE to their country through public service in the armed forces. Oh yeah, the

Silver Star Medal
Bronze Star Medal (2 awards)
Purple Heart
Distinguished Service Medal
Defense Distinguished Service Medal (5 awards)
Meritorious Service Medal (2 awards)
Legion of Merit Medal (4 awards)
Army Commendation Medal (2 awards)

Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Bill Clinton
Honorary knighthood (UK) in recognition of his role in the Kosovo War
Honorary knighthood (Netherlands)
Commander of the Legion of Honour (France)
more than 20 other major military awards from non-US governments.

ALL JUST A BIG ACT. :crazy:

bowens43 (1000+ posts) Thu Oct-16-03 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #3

25. Yep , you're right .


And that's the problem. To Clark it's just an enormous game. He would have been playing for the other team if they would have had him.

and the would be macho boys he attracts -so impressed with shiny medals as the measure of a good, patriotic American.

It is quite revealing that the new measure of the New Patriotism seems to the same measure of the old patriotism to you---military service.

Boys are commiting suicide in Iraq, they are coming home as basket cases, the US hasn't been fighting in many legitimate conflicts since WW2 but your eyes are misty and glaze over a stud of a general with bangles on his chest - that surely would give Tweety a thrill.

Just what is there to be so puffed up about?

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Stats repeatedly reveal Clark appeal to women lagging behind other candidates.

But honestly, I don't care what your gender is---any women that believes that adopting the stupidity and values of men as a measure of equality only serves to defeat their own alternative to men's failures in leadership. It is comparable to Dems adopting the Republican identity rather than forging a path in opposition to it.

A campaign built on the foundation of nationalism, even if poses as a reinterpretation of what has been used to beat the drums of war, still sets off alarms for me, especially since your General encourages crowds to join the military.

I'm sorry, I really don't feel comfortable with the mindset of all this---and the militancy of Clark supporters just reinforces it.

Maybe it was because my father was a therapist-a psychologist that witnessed the reality of war and had his own illusions shattered about honor and glory and was bitter about generals until his dying day, that I view your position with such contempt.

It isn't necessary to shout.

a good, patriotic American, but they are a measure. A person who contributes 40 years to his or her country deserves a little credit.

Do you hate Clark because he served in the military? If so, do you hate everyone who serves? Does military service automatically disqualify someone from receiving your vote?

of the priority list.

Yes, I'm one of those who KNOWS my fucking history and KNOWS that the US gov't has been responsible for the murder of millions. Osama is hardly even noticable by 'body count.' His PR is just inadequate in comparison to the decades long myth of US 'virtue.'

That's why a US general will NEVER EVER represent a relief from the politics of atrocity which define our national heritage. And just because this 'attitude' doesn't sit well with know-nothing conservatives doesn't mean I'm going to lie about my country to keep the 'fly-over' sheeple placated.

I am going to put on a Wes Clark button
and go down to my local humane society
and donate some time and money.

I think it is great and I hope if he becomes
President he will inspire more of us to donate
our time and money to good things.

Others in Michigan will be donating blood on
Saturday.

It's kind of gimmicky, I will grant you but I think
his heart is in the right place.

Again, I will state -- his heart is in the right
place.

Kerry has a similiar concept when he talks about his high school kids community service plan. It's important to take away the 'patriotism' argument the GOP always uses against the Dems, and this is a good way to do that. The Democratic party is just as patriotic as the Republicans, and this should be emphasized to the general public.

I actually love the idea that Clark is promoting community volunteerism, rather than just electioneering on his own behalf. It's a really positive message.

DTH

"rather than just electioneering on his own behalf. It's a really positive message."

Your doing community service to commend Clarks service? Seems to me you should do community service to benefit the community not to commemorate a politian. Sounds to me like "electioneering on his own behalf" bigtime. :)

He's not asking us to work on his campaign, he's asking us to serve the community. I don't see what you're seeing at all.

DTH

I have no problem with Clark promoting community service, in fact I support that idea.

what bothers me is his calling it patriotism.

No one's forcing you to accept his definition.

I have no problem with it. I like how Clark is trying to redefine patriotism.

DTH

That it is not just putting another flag on your car.

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:yourock:

</sarcasm>

The voting public can decide if they like his version of it -- or not.

Now what really bothers me is the empty rhetoric of Pudge. The 'change' candidate, who advocates a program that is similar to those of everyone else. A man who lies in almost every speech and appearance (on those rare occasions when he doesn't lie, I feel certain it's an oversight on his part, and he makes a private vow to tell extra lies in his next appearance to make up for the shortcoming.) Ooops! Shortcoming. And Dean is short and cherubically chubby! I made a funny!

He's not saying anything any different than Dean, he just gives them a fancy title.

n/t

But I don't say anything.

n/t

I have no problem with what Wesley Clark is doing.

he just wants to feel justified in his desperate dislike.

I don't dislike Clark at all. he's my #2 choice.

I dislike his use of the word patriotism. it's as simple as that.

worse than Howard yelling "I want my flag back."

Elaborate.

Let's see Bush try and campaign against "New American Patriotism." :)

but okay when Clark seeks to do the same?

His patriotism is a hell of a lot closer to what it should be. It's a hell of a lot closer to liberal ideals.

I don't understand why you have such a problem with trying to reclaim our guts on issues like these.

DTH

that's my whole issue.

I didn't think it was right when the Republicans attempted to define it for the rest of us, and I don't think it's right when a Democrat (whoever it may be) tries to do so either.

Then don't accept his definition. I'm actually glad someone is making this an issue, reclaiming the word, because it's the only way to fight back against the Republicans.

DTH

I appreciate your comments and the debate this thread has brought about.

And I get your concern, I really do. For many people, patriotism (nationalism, really) is like religion, it's an intensely personal thing. It also has the danger of becoming crass jingoism if people try to define it like the Republicans are. I guess that's why I don't have a problem with Clark's vision of it: even if everyone bought into his notion, I don't see it leading to jingoism or anything dangerous. I see it leading to energetic debate and community service, two things that I feel are pretty neat. :-)

DTH

He's helping us all reclaim it for ourselves.

only applies to Republicans. It's an emotion that belongs to all Americans regardless of party.

I don't see that Clark is doing anything like that.

Clark speaks to the better angels of our natures when talking about patriotism but also says that hearty and reasoned discussion and dissent are ESSENTIAL to patriotism.

Bush would be Pol Pot were it not for the media (mostly skewed to him and yet not enough for his liking). He was born to lead a small powerless and violent country and that is what we will have here if he is allowed to keep going.

For Bush, patriotism = waving a flag, putting a bumper sticker on your SUV that says "love it or leave it" following Brittney Spears advice on trusting the pResident.

Clark promotes community service, reasoned dialoge and dissent as an excellent base for patriotism. What part of that is so evil?

patriotism - dissent = Bush definition of "patriotism"

dialoge + dissent = Clark patriotism.

What part of dialoge and dissent do you ***dissent*** ?

And why it doesn't to other Democrats, is beyond me.

Nationalism sucks.

which is marginalizing our party

n/t

Basically the right is calling us a bunch of apple pie hating commies....and win elections by doing it.

Clark counters that by saying, "naw we love apple pie, it's you
damn Bush apologizers who are spoiling everything"......

Pruner comes in saying "I don't like this Clark guy....ew,
Patriotism, so gross"

Family Doc Comes in "Hey, isn't service a good thing, kind
of gives everyone a warm fuzzy"

Then some other folks chime in "hey, maybe if we take
the word Patriotism off the table, we can win this
election. That would be good."

Pastiche retorts "eeech, nationalism...." code words for
saying patriotism is bad, further proof to the right we
hate apple pie.

So family doctor says "wait a sec Pastiche, when you go off
like that you are only giving ammo to the enemy"

Well, Pruner brilliantly replies "Pastiche is not the
one to blame, you are..."

I can actually see Pastiche's point, at least he's entitled
to an opinion. But Pruner's retort has absolutely no logic
in it that I can see.

What planet do I live on?

not in this thread or any other.

he happens to be my #2 choice.

I hope your bedside manner is better than your reading comprehension.

I am amazed.

That's cool.

It's all good.

:hug:

I don't give a shit what the repugs think. I believe in the Democratic ideology and I am confident of my party.

2nd, it is the repugs claiming they are the patriotic party. I say bullshit. I do not believe them and won't play their game.

3rd, it is only "ammo" if you allow it to be. I won't allow it.

4th, I am female.

I still say nationalism sucks, and I believe it is a sickness that can kill a democracy.

are kicking ass but in reality the President, Supreme Court,
Senate, House, MIC, and many major media outlets
are Republican or very right wing.

Now it is beginning to make sense.

You do not have confidence in the Democratic Party. You really do not care if a Democrat is elected president. You just want to win.

How sad and how empty.

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:yourock:

Hmmm, from the posts I've seen coming from you, I thought you were a Green party member.

Am I wrong?

It's not about Nationalism... it's about being one of a group.

Working together for the Common Good.

Supporting and rejoicing in one another.

Rather than being divisive and hateful.

And it's sad some DU'ers willfully confuse Nationalism with Patriotism.

Maybe you aren't really a Democrat. Isn't it fun to make that kind of accusation?

I'm not thrilled with this whole "New American Patriotism" thing. However, I think encouraging (in a voluntary way, of course) service is generally a good thing. So this gets a :thumbsup:.

Clark has surely a REAL General's staff working for him who are plugged in to military-america in a way that no other candidate is... and that those folks know the issue of one party being percieved as the natural party of command, understanding that military folks like to be "in service". (karma yoga).

If he called it karma yoga, it would not win... so instead his words are unmince-able... they can't be separated easily from the GOP patriotism call... and that is exactly what will win him the center.

He's saying dissent is Patriotic, and that
serving the public good is Patriotic, and that together
these are characteristic of Americans at their best.

Sounds good to me.

A great example of a New American Patriot is Governor
Dean. He is perhaps the strongest critic of Bush (dissent), yet
he devoted his life to public service (medicine, governor). Clark's definition will help him when he is attacked by Republicans for being
unpatriotic, ie, not promoting everything Bush.

Of course, Clark and most of the other candidates are New American Patriots as well.

Any one who questions Clark, gets shouted down and rediculed. This thread is a good example, but check out any thread where Clark is mentioned, and you will see other examples of this "patratisem."

Am I to beleive Clark supporter will sudnly become abjective to critisism once he becomes Presdent? Or as Ben Franklend warned, "Do not trade your loylty from the cats, to the rats, for neather are the freind of mice, who must govern themselves."

Bush may be the cat, eating us fellow mice. But I fear that Clark is the rat. And the more I see him "defended", the more this conclusion becomes inescapabule.

you sure have got it backwards. Clark is the one being criticized by the original poster and his supporters are only defending him. And you call him a rat. You are a little mixed up in your analysis I believe.

if he called his plan something like "New American Community" I'd have no problem with it whatsoever.

Isn't that what criticism is? I didn't say attack. I guess that is what is the norm around here. My response was only to show that the Clark supporters were only defending Clark, not attacking you.

I did criticize Clark for asking his supporters to commemorate his service… whatever the hell that means.

but I think that's a fair point of criticism and does not rise to the level of "bashing" or "smearing".

you displey and reflect well why Kerry is my number 2 choice. All the rest have fallen to the same level for me in terms of either liability or integrity.

you sure have got it backwards. Clark is the one being criticized by the original poster and his supporters are only defending him.

No, I don't believe I have it backwards at all. As the Clark supporters are a direct reflection of the Clark campaign in general. His supporters applaud Clark's definition of patriotism, and we see in black and white how they present the form of patriotism by which they applaud.

And you call him a rat. You are a little mixed up in your analysis I believe.

This is a story told by Ben Franklin to tell us that the enemy of my enemy is not my friend. It is a story about colony of mice who had a cat problem. So they turned to the rats, brethren, to take care of the cats for them. Which they did.

But then the rats became their own problem for the mice. And were as bad as the cats. So the mice went to the cats for help. And the cats came and took care of the rats. But of course, now the nice were being terrorized by the cats again. So they go back to the rats. And so on and so on, until the mice finally learn that they only way they will be able to solve their problems, is to deal with both the cats, and the rats, themselves.

My comment of "Bush may be the cat, eating us fellow mice. But I fear that Clark is the rat," was made in that context. Call it offensive if you wish, it is your right to do so. But my point is that Clark will not save us from Bush, and that in 4 or 8 years, we may find ourselves turning to the Republicans, to rescue us from Clark..

baseless attacks is shouting down the opposition. I assume we should just allow people to say what ever they like about Clark and not respond to them no matter how vile and unfounded their accusations are.

Sence I have not made any vile or unfounded accusations, you prove my case quite admorably.

Ironicly, its usualy the Clark suporters that BRING UP the vile & unfounded accusations. Such as the Wako-Clark tin hat the Pigman roled out. They can attack that one all day if they like.

But stuff that has been brought up by Stickdog and Tinor is just plane scary. Such as Clarks invalvment with CAPPSII, a big brother operation. Or Clarks invalvment with the Vensuwala cue's. I am sapose to belive this is an better alternitive to Bush?

I never said that you did. You said we were shouting down the opposition. My point was that some people were posting unfounded trash about Clark and that we were just defending him.

The idea that Clark supporters bring up most of the unfounded accusation is bull shit. The Wako BS has been brought up scores of times by Clark bashers. Pigman is the only Clark supporter I have seen to bring it up.

I though Clark was being attacked by the right wing?

and the Radical Right, which is a revolutionary movement,
is like comparing JFK (and the Corps he created) and being
bothered by it, with Bush... or Clinton's Americorps, with
bush...

The better comparison for bush, I am not kidding is any radical
revolutionary movemetn of the last century and the youth
movements that came with it.

I love the idea that patriotism might be defined by all the things that we've been saying are the truly patriotic values all along rather than the nationalistic jingoism of this administration. That's the important part of it to me. Dissent and service..sounds like a bunch of hippies to me. :)

:shrug:

authority.

This is a SLAM to Bush, Ashcroft and the "fake patriots." It's brilliant!
http://www.clark04.com/speeches/005/


As I travel across this country, I see a new spirit of patriotism in the American people. I see it in the Americans who speak their minds, demand more of their leaders, and serve their country.

This patriotism recognizes that democracy demands discussion, disagreement, and dissent. There is a nothing more American - nothing more patriotic -- than speaking out, questioning authority, and holding your leaders accountable.

This patriotism is born of a love of country, and renewed through service - service in the armed forces and service in our communities; volunteer service and paid service; full-time service and part-time service.

This New American Patriotism recognizes that it's not enough to say you're an American; you have to live it - with action, deed and commitment.

It recognizes that we as Americans owe our strength to certain values and principles - liberty, equality, and the freedom to debate - and it calls on our willingness to sacrifice for those principles.

Here is the current incarnation of Applied Patriotism -
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-general16oct16,1,7655334.story
That is the alternative form of "patriotism" and national defense.

Clark is smart to take the offensive on how to best serve the best interests of the people of this country. Remember that "This land is your land" and "America the beautiful" are patriotic without being jingoistic or chauvinistic.

Family values isn't just about your blood relatives.

It's about your community and your country.

The Common Good.

The Spirit of Patriotism is being proud of what the best of America's citizens have accomplished and willing to rectify the worst.

I will not allow the Far Right to usurp Patriotism nor to desecrate the Constitution.

It's time we took our country back.

Out of Many One.

Thank you.

.....

I think it is brilliant and bold. And it makes me proud to support Clark.

Nor are you. This article was posted to get us thinking about being bothered. Fuck that. This is bullshit spin.

Where is Clark telling us what patriotism is?

As in, "Don't ask what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."

Once upon a time, public service was considered virtuous. Have the young folks been so brainwashed by Rush and the other wingnuts that it is't any more?

Patriotism for a New American Century.

To me, it shows where he's coming from as a candidate.

who feels that way.

He is cReEpY!

Drum roll please.......................

I hate it when candidates wrap themselves in the flag. Bad enough when Bush does it, but I don't like Kerry or Clark doing it.

There is nothing wrong with true patriotism. The right has co-opted the word and turned into a weapon with which to beat us over the head. What Clark is trying to do is to return the word to its true meaning and, in so doing, take way their weapon.


Your problem is not with patriotism, it is with the rights use of the word to shut down dessent. Clark is saying that dessent can be patriotic and you are attacking him for this.

when it pleases master Rove

Wes Clark has lived the flag most of his life with honor and distintction.

Most all uf us are active, vets or have vets in our families. We love them, shouldn't we show then why they should love the Democratic party as well?

Clark has repeated over and over agian that true patriotism is based on, relies upon and is characterized by reasoned dialoge and dissent. What of this do you not agree with.

As for the national day of service, do you picture us out there lighting insence and bowing before GI Joe kung fu grip figures or something? Give me a break. We just thought it might be a nice thing for our grassroots groups to find volunteer projects in our communities to contribute and give back and also call attention to Wes Clarks service to his country.......... 38 years, as well.


OOooooooooooh........ how sinister.:wow:

copying Dean.

Does clark EVER come up w/original ideas?

Oh! I now understand why he was bring "coy" for so long. He was busy copying everyone else's ideas.

Although the motivation may be good--like reclaiming the flag and all that, all these tributes to nationalism and militarism are like new renditions of a bad song.

It's a good thing to be Patriot and proud of this country.

my problem is people attempting to define what patriotism means.

I agree that it's good to be proud of this country, but I disagree with the notion there's a correct way to be proud.

I don't see anything that suggests Clark is trying to define the word patriotism or suggest that there's a correct way to be proud. I think public service is a good thing.

He is simply trying to show people the true meaning of patriotism. The definition is not his. It is ours. Patriotism is an old word that has been corrupted in recent years by the right.

but......you know clark is going to take the catch term patriotic away from those republicans with this kindof campaign. Hey don't talk about it, don't question it. That's the motto around here sometimes when candidate love is in the air......love is in the air.

I am Kucinich supporter, but Clark, when he speaks, rubs me a helluva lot better than Dean. And if the whole of the party is going to chant that Dennis is unelectable Clark is going to be my man. Although I disagree with that attitude.

It is obviously a campaign stunt... patriotism and nationalism are despicable in my opinion.

As the unamed-due-to-me-inebriate-state founding father said "Patriotism is the last refuge of SCOUNDRELS".

from the scoundrels, they will only have a rock left to crawl under.

Clark is brilliant.....and some resent it.

He is using a word they claim for themselves,
.....and therefore, it is no longer theirs.

If you guys don't understand that it's the fake patriotism that lifted Bushco to 90% approval ratings......then you don't understand politics in America!


Dean says that he will empower us, and that's great talk,

but Clark explains the way that it can be done.

ACTIONS ARE LOUDER THAN WORDS!

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"....

Bush and Cheney are scoundrels hiding behind patriotism.
Take that away from them, and they will have no refuge.

It is brilliant.

Who wouldn't want Bush and his apologizers to be exposed
for the lying hacks that they are while we come out on
top as upholding true American values -- like freedom
of speech for instance?

I eagerly anticipate it.

But my hubbie says that "riding" the floor buffers down the ramps of the Pentagon is way fun for "community service" and I guess he enjoyed snapping a salute to Gen. Westmoreland (same place)once upon a lifetime - does feeding a general's ego count?

Anyway, Sweetest Day is a "corporate-created" holiday for sure but guess I'll be cutting out pictures of candy and flowers this year and enclose IOUs. All this, courtesy of Whistleass and his brilliant domestic/foreign policies! Oh well, it's happened before, and before, and before....Lounge Secret: one year I actually made a heart-shaped Whoopie Cushion for my itinerent ITer's gift!

Beside which, that's the day my honey did "Leavin' on a jet plane (ONLY IT WAS A TRAIN)- don't know when I'll be back again" for real. GOT HIM BACK THOUGH two years minus a day later -- hEhEhE!
Too many today aren't coming home any time soon - or worse Too Soon!

I think I'll take a pass on Clark's National Service Day - Patriotic Americans are already doing "community service" by necessity and trying to thwart the BFEEs plans to ruin America!

Take the Second Slot, Wes - I'm having a trust problem!

Care to explain what you don't trust about General Clark?

And please, post some facts to back up your assertions.

with a husband or son in the service?

Obviously not. It means "not required"